Front Burner - The suspected poisoning of Russian dissident Alexei Navalny

Episode Date: August 27, 2020

Alexei Navalny is the most prominent opposition figure in Russia, an anti-corruption crusader and a frequent Kremlin critic. But right now, Navalny is comatose in a German hospital after a suspected poisoning. Today on Front Burner, Chris Brown from CBC's Moscow bureau explains why Navalny might have been targeted, by whom, and the potential fallout.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. So I understand what's going on in Russia, and I understand a lot of risks, and I understand danger. But this is my country.

I'm going to fight for my country. He's the most prominent opposition figure in Russia, an anti-corruption crusader and a frequent Kremlin critic. But right now, Alexei Navalny is in a German hospital in a coma after a suspected poisoning. Today, Chris Brown

from CBC's Moscow Bureau joins me to explain why Alexei Navalny might have been targeted, by whom, and the potential fallout. I'm Josh Bloch. This is FrontBurner. Hello, Chris. Hey, Josh. I was hoping we could start with this suspected poisoning itself. Last week, Alexei Navalny was in Siberia. He was then flying to Moscow. What happened?

Well, all we know is that there's a picture of him with his supporters where he's drinking a cup of tea. And there's video of him shortly after that screaming in agony on the aircraft that he boarded. Then we know that the pilots made an emergency landing after being in the air for only 20 minutes or so. And they rushed him to the hospital in a city called Omsk. What happened at that hospital? What we know about what happened was that he probably was already unconscious or maybe even in a coma when he arrived. We understand that the doctors who looked at him did their best. They say they did their best, And even his wife and his supporters, you know,

say they may well have saved his life because he was in such bad shape. And then almost immediately, his supporters put out a call for help from the West because they were very worried about the conditions in this hospital. But before... I saw that his wife really wanted him to be transferred to a different

place, and she said that she was feared the Russian authorities were trying to interfere with the transfer so that any poison would pass through his system and become undetectable. Eventually, she was successful in getting him transferred to this hospital in Germany. Yeah, it's a little unclear exactly what the delay was for. It was about a 17-hour delay, so very, very significant. The German air ambulance that was paid for by a private charity was there. It was on the tarmac. It was ready to go. But there were all kinds of reasons given by the Russian authorities why it couldn't go.

They said initially that he wasn't stable enough to be moved, that there wasn't any need for him to be moved, but eventually they relented. It may even have taken that letter from Navalny's wife. She sent a letter to Vladimir Putin himself pleading with him to let this air ambulance take off, and they eventually did. Not before, though, the doctors did do some tests on him. They say they looked at his blood work and they pronounced that whatever it was that struck him down wasn't poison. They said that it had to have been something else, maybe something in his diet. Maybe he was dieting.

They even said that, you know, there was alcohol and caffeine in his system. Well, everyone who knows Navalny knows he's a teetotaler and doesn't drink. knows he's a teetotaler and doesn't drink. So from the very beginning, from those first hours at the hospital in Omsk, a lot of questions about just how much interference was there, who was doing it, and ultimately, you know, why were they trying to hold up Alexei Navalny if, in truth, there wasn't any poison in his system, which, of course, his family and supporters now know that there was.

We're unable to stop this sort of cycle of violence towards pro-democracy activists is very disheartening. It's not about the health of Mr. Navalny, but it's about the politics to hide the way he was poisoned. Right. Well, tell me about what the German doctors discovered when he was transferred to a hospital in Germany. We haven't actually been able to speak to any of the German doctors yet. They've only issued a release, and the release was pretty clear. It said Alexei Navalny was poisoned. In a statement, they say the clinical findings indicate poisoning

by a substance from the group of active substances called cholinesterase inhibitors. It's very complicated what exactly they do, but this essentially blocks the functioning of the nervous system and every kind of organ you can imagine, your brain, your lungs, the whole bit. So it literally causes, in some cases, your lungs to shut down so you can't breathe. So a lot of people who get hit with these cholinesterase inhibitors in large doses, they die of suffocation because they simply can't get air into their body. You can find these inhibitors often in pesticides. There is a commercial use for them. And people all around the world do die, of course, from drinking pesticides, but

obviously Alexei Navalny did not do that. So the suspicion is that this was a very concentrated amount of cholinesterase inhibitors, some kind of a compound. And of course, that immediately makes you think, well, only a few people, only a few agencies, only a few countries really would be able to put this together. So it's unlikely because of the nature of this toxin that this was ever done just unintentionally. And more likely it had to have involved a very complex plan to deliver it, to administer it, and then for the person who did it to make sure that they didn't poison themselves in the process. Well, you know, I saw the video that you mentioned from the airplane that he was on and hearing the sound of this man moaning in the background, it sounded awful. Yeah, you had to feel for his family listening to that. This was not as, you know, some of the

Russian excuses afterwards. I mean, it was almost as bad hearing what people were saying about the video here in the state media as having to watch it. One woman, Margarita Simonian, who runs RT, which is the international arm of Kremlin broadcasting, said, well, he must have had low sugar content. That's why I always keep chocolate beside me on these long flights. Really dismissing it, being very, very nasty about it all. Others were saying, well, he clearly was going on a diet. He must have been doing something to his body. Whatever the case was, no way could it have been poison. Well, and what do we know about his condition now? Well, we don't know much other than that. We know that by the sounds of it, he's in very dire shape.

There's no leaks. And I have to think that if he was doing better, we might have heard. And I have to think that if he was doing better, we might have heard. So for those who aren't familiar with Russian politics, who is Alexei Navalny? You know, it depends who you ask. From a Western point of view, he is the only, you know, he's the most significant opposition figure in Russia. He's done all kinds of investigations through a non-profit foundation he set up, through journalism. He's posted YouTube videos that have been seen by millions, if not tens of millions of Russians. He's investigated dozens and dozens of officials at the highest echelons of Russia's government. We're talking the former prime minister Dmitry Medvedev, just as an example. One of the videos that Navalny has done on him

showed opulence and wealth and castles and so many properties all around the country that he's accumulated. That has 35 million viewers, that one has. I checked it the other day. But so many other people he's gone after at the high level of even Moscow's municipal government. One investigation I remember reading, he looked at the guy that was in charge of planning and approving, let's say, building developments, and they found out that he had 22 condos,

not in his name, but in his wife and his kid's name, all around the city of Moscow. So that's an awful lot of condos. So the suggestion clearly was there that, look, he's getting kickbacks to do this. So lots of people would have a reason to be very, very upset with Alexei Navalny. He wasn't an oligarch or even a politician, but the lawyer had coined the phrase the party of swindlers and thieves to describe the Putin regime. The Putin regime is built on corruption, and Putin himself is the most corrupt.

On the other hand, if you talk to someone who is a supporter of Vladimir Putin, they'll tell you he's a no-one. They'll tell you, oh, he's just a blogger, He's just a wannabe. He doesn't have any support. They'll tell you the polls show only 2% of Russians know who he is. They don't even say his name on state TV. That's how much of a nobody that they suggest Navalny is. And just this week, you know, his name has been in the news all around the world. Nothing on the state TV bulletins. They really just ignore him. It's like he's persona non grata. And that's because of the impact, frankly, that he's had on so many people who are part of

Vladimir Putin's circle. And what had he been doing in Siberia just before this incident happened? Well, there are elections coming up at the local level here in Russia. And I think probably the idea was they're trying to capitalize on some of the discontent that we've seen elsewhere in Russia. All summer long, there have been street protests in the city of Khabarovsk, which is way out on the Pacific side of Russia. It's like nine time zones away from Moscow. Which is way out on the Pacific side of Russia. It's like nine time zones away from Moscow.

But for the last number of weeks, ever since Vladimir Putin removed the governor of Khabarovsk, there have been massive street protests. A lot of people very upset that the person they wanted in charge was thrown out by the Kremlin. So they sense, and Navalny's team senses, that there was an opening for that same kind of opposition movement in a different part of Russia, in Siberia. And that's why they were going around trying to get people ready for this vote. Thank you. Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not

know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So it's clear that, you know, Navalny is a thorn in the side of Putin and clearly his supporters suspect that the Kremlin is behind this poisoning. What evidence is there to back that up? precedent that's gone on before. An awful lot of people have been taken out in very suspicious circumstances with no investigation afterwards to hold anyone accountable. And that's, to many of Navalny supporters, what this feels like here. I've personally talked to a number of people who claim to have been poisoned. Vladimir Karamurza, Peter Verzilov, who's a dual Canadian citizen. Vladimir Karamurza, Peter Verzilov, who's a dual Canadian citizen.

These are all activists who got on the wrong side of someone with some power in the government's inner circle. And they all believe they were poisoned. Of course, in many cases, in those two cases, you can't prove it. Because by the time you get to hospital, the evidence is out of your blood or the evidence is suppressed or whatever the case is. But we definitely know that in the case of the Skripals, the very infamous attempted murder of the Skripals in Salisbury, England in 2018. It is now clear that Mr. Skripal and his daughter were poisoned with a military-grade nerve agent of a type developed by Russia. This is part of a group of nerve agents known as Novichok. Two Russian GRU agents,

Secret Service agents, tried to kill them with Novichok smeared on their door handles. Now, Novichok, coincidentally, is also in the family of cholinesterase inhibitors, just like what hit Navalny. Now, we don't know if Navalny was attacked with Novichok, but there's some kind of a connection there. So we know that Russia's secret services use this as a technique to go after people, to go after traitors, to go after regime opponents. And we know it's also in many cases been very successful. Well, and Navalny himself says he has been a target previous to this, that he claims he was poisoned once in jail. He's had an awful lot done to him. Yes, he was poisoned in jail. He's been attacked with stinging green paint on his face on more than one occasion as well.

The footage shows an unidentified man throwing a green antiseptic called Zlielanka into Navalny's face. Although Navalny has criticized the broadcaster for blurring the face of the assailant. He's been arrested on a bunch of occasions too. Zlielanka! The police moved in, grabbed him, bundled him into a police van. We've talked to some of his supporters

who not only have been arrested and beaten up, they've been sent out to do military service in far-flung parts of Siberia as punishment as well. So the state has all kinds of different punishments that they can met out on people, some above board, some like the green paint and so forth, not above board. But, you know, Navalny was definitely a person who you wondered something has to happen to him soon. And he was asked this a number of times, you know, aren't you worried? Don't you think you're going to be a target? And his answer was rather sanguine. He would say, well, I think Vladimir Putin doesn't want me dead because I'm more problems to him dead than if I'm alive.

Because if he's alive, as I said earlier, they just ignore him. But I think the thinking was if he was dead or something bad happened to him, he could become a rallying figure and it would give him incredible legitimacy. And that probably will be one of the side effects of this. Should Navalny survive, he will emerge as a much more powerful figure, I would think. I have a clear understanding of what this regime can do. But I'm not afraid and I'm not going to give up on what I want to do. I won't give up on uniting those around me who believe in the same ideals as me. And there are quite a lot of people like that in Russia.

Well, that's really interesting because, you know, it does seem like by attacking Navalny this way, it really could increase his influence and kind of light a fire under his supporters It's really interesting because, you know, it does seem like by attacking Navalny this way, it really could increase his influence and kind of light a fire under his supporters rather than deter them. You know, if indeed this was the Russian government behind this, what would be the rationale to go after him this way with the risk that you increase his influence? No one really knows. And it's very difficult to read the tea leaves about why people do what they do. The Russian government has Vladimir Putin at the top of it, but there's all kinds of

competing government agencies that are beneath them. There's umpteen different kinds of security services. Of course, as I mentioned, Navalny has made a lot of enemies outside the government as well. A lot of oligarchs would love to see him gone as well. He's gone after their reputations as well. So it really is a crapshoot to guess who might have done this. And it's not at all clear that even if it was someone in Russia's government who did it, that the call to do it would have come from the Kremlin itself. These days, any kind of freelancing activity is within the realm of

possibility. Putin wouldn't sign off on absolutely everything. People might do what they think might please him, but that doesn't mean he would necessarily know about it. And that's what makes trying to find the culprit in this case very difficult. And the Kremlin has said they're not going to do an investigation. You know, They don't have any evidence, they say, of the poison. Of course, the Germans haven't actually given them a vial yet with the substance in it. And maybe even if they did give them that, they still wouldn't do the investigation because I think they just want this issue to disappear. How have the Russian authorities responded to the suggestion that they were involved? authorities responded to the suggestion that they were involved? Well, they're doing what they always do when it comes to allegations or insinuations that they've done something

extra legal in terms of a poisoning or some kind of an assassination attempt. They're denying it entirely. They're following the exact same playbook as we saw that they followed after the Skripal attack in 2018. President Putin, BBC News. Is Russia behind the poisoning of Sergei Skripal? We're dealing with agriculture here, as you see, to create conditions for people's lives. And you talked to me about some tragedies. First, get to the bottom of it there, and then we'll discuss this. First of all, they, well, in this there, and then we'll discuss this. There's no poison in his system, for example. Then they came out yesterday and suggested,

well, this is probably something done by the West to make Russia look bad. So they poisoned Navalny and are just trying to hurt us. So you're getting all kinds of red herrings, distraction, misdirection, all of this, which, again, is typical of how the Kremlin propaganda machine handles accusations like this. You mentioned earlier these protests in Khabarovsk. There are, of course, enormous protests happening next door in Belarus as well. Is there an indication that some of that energy might spread to Moscow? Well, we've not seen it yet. I think what we're seeing now from Navalny's friends and family and people who are close to him is still a lot of shock.

I think this is a huge blow to them. I think it's still a very personal story. So that's the view now. You know, I think the Germans have a key role to play in this. Let's see what they come up with in terms of proof. We are already hearing from the European Union, from Great Britain, and from some other countries that they want a full investigation into this. We'll see how hard they're able to push it. And as I say, what evidence the Germans are able to provide that might make it much harder for the Kremlin to say, you know, nothing to see here. Chris, thank you so much for sharing your insight into this. Thanks, Josh. Before I let you go, some news to catch you up on.

On Wednesday, Ontario Special Investigation Unit, the SIU, cleared all police officers of wrongdoing in the death of Regis Korchinski-Paquette, saying there were no reasonable grounds to charge any of the officers involved. cleared all police officers of wrongdoing in the death of Regis Kortinsky-Paquette, saying there were no reasonable grounds to charge any of the officers involved. The black and indigenous 29-year-old felt her her death from her high-rise apartment in May when the Toronto police were in her home. Her death sparked huge anti-police protests, with many calling for justice for Regis. After the SIU's announcement, Ms. Kortinsky-Paquette's father, Peter, spoke to the CBC. Here's some of what he had to say.

It was a very sad day for our family, for Regis too. We need full transparency, and this has not been given to us. I'm very concerned about the SIU's decision, and the public should be concerned as well. As from the beginning, we remain steadfast in our pursuit for justice and the truth. And in the world of professional sports, the Milwaukee Bucks boycotted their playoff game last night, prompting the NBA to postpone all three playoff games scheduled for Wednesday. The team was protesting the police shooting of a black man, Jacob Blake, about 60 kilometers from Milwaukee in Kenosha, Wisconsin. And in Major League Baseball,

the Milwaukee Brewers and Cincinnati Reds also refused to take to the field. We'll have more on this story on tomorrow's program. That's all for today. I'm Josh Bloch. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner.