Front Burner - The trial for George Floyd's killing begins

Episode Date: March 11, 2021

This week, jury selection is underway for one of the most scrutinized court cases in recent history: the second-degree murder and manslaughter trial of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin in the death of George Floyd. Floyd's killing sparked an enormous, international protest movement for racial justice. Today, CBC senior correspondent Susan Ormiston takes us to Minneapolis to hear from the people there as they brace for this trial.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. This week, jury selection is underway for one of the most scrutinized court cases in recent history, the second-degree murder trial of former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin for the death of George Floyd. I don't need to tell you that the video

of Chauvin kneeling on Floyd's neck for nearly nine minutes sparked one of the biggest protest movements for racial justice the world has ever seen. And I don't need to tell you that there is a lot riding on this trial. Today, we're talking to CBC reporter Susan Ormiston, who just returned from Minneapolis. So let's get started. Hi, Susan. It's so good to have you back with us. Thanks, Jamie. Hi. So I want to start in George Floyd Square.

This is the intersection where George Floyd was killed. Community members barricaded it off back in June, and they turned it into this big memorial site and kind of a gathering place. And I know that you spoke to a young man there named P.J. Hill. And can you tell me why he was out there and what he's anticipating he'll see during the trial? Yeah, George Floyd Square has had so many chapters, you know, a very raw, angry place in end of May last year. We're not going nowhere until we're ready to go home. We're grieving. We're hurt. We have the right to hurt. Somewhere safe. And that's here. And then when we went back in September, a tense place. There'd been some shootings in the area. It was being blocked off. Police weren't invited.

How did a 47-year-old mild manner school teacher wind up on a barricade? Because I have no choice. arcade because I have no choice. They killed that man 260 steps from my front door. A child I teach filmed that man's death. Her mama called me. And now it's more open than they're expecting. A whole crowd of people to come again to this iconic place where, you know, the image and the outline of George Floyd's body is on the pavement. And there's those two huge murals, you know, the image and the outline of George Floyd's body is on the pavement. And there's those two huge murals, you know, of George Floyd staring down on the square. And P.J. Hill came up to us, actually, when we were there. And he said, you know, I grew up in this community, and I'm coming back to try to help people through this trial.

I feel this in my heart. You know, this community, I'm a product of this community. I'm third generation. So long after the media is gone, I'll still have to be here. So I really want us to come together and take the next step all together. If we want to go fast, we go alone. If we want to go far, we got to go together. He's doing a volunteer ministry.

He's actually a financial advisor and was a professional basketball player in Europe. But he's got a lot of ambition about, you know, trying to actually cradle people who are going to go through a lot of trauma during this two-month trial. And many of them will come to George Floyd Square while they're doing it. So he was saying, you know... I think this trial will, it's going to reopen a lot of wounds. It's like pulling a Band-Aid off as we're trying to heal. We as a community, you know, regardless of what happens, we are going to have to move forward. So that's why we want to all try to move forward together.

He said a lot of people have such raw emotion. It had tempered a bit in the last 10 months, and now it's all going to come to the surface again. And he felt very responsible for helping people trying to navigate this emotional time to come. Because last year's uprise, it showed us that riots are the voice of the unheard and people who feel trapped. So if people feel like they're not getting justice or not being heard in a respective manner, they'll turn to the streets. And we don't want that because we all have to live here.

And I know that PJ's not alone there in trying to offer support for people in Minneapolis who are anticipating this to be really difficult, especially black people, of course. And can you tell me about this pastor that you spoke to, Bishop Richard Howell? Hallelujah! We can use euphemisms all we want,

try to use pretty language, but when it comes to the truth, murder is cold-blooded murder. How is he trying to support his community through this trial? Yeah, we went to his church on Sunday, and he's a leader. You know, these pastoral leaders are really important in these communities. They're trying to really seed the ground that the trial will be very hard. It will be emotional,

provocative, and they worry about lots of things like misinformation, like bits of evidence being twisted one way or another. We're going to take steps to pray very hard because we do find that prayer, meditation is rich. We're not going to walk in a delusion. We know reality. We have to keep both feet on the ground because we know what's going to happen. We understand that this is our city. You know, because we know what's going to happen. We understand that this is our city. You know, Bishop Howell is also, I would say,

is kind of like an ambassador for communities, that the pastoral people in Minneapolis are speaking with, you know, members of the Attorney General's office, with leaders in the community, trying to get a handle on how this might impact people. He's opening his church to anyone who wants to come in for guidance, for solace, for reflection, for a little bit of therapeutic counseling as they listen to what will go on in this trial. I can't overestimate the import in Minneapolis

for both black families and white families of the Chauvin tribe. There are some elements in our city, they don't want to talk, they want to take action. And we understand that. But if we can encourage everyone, take a deep breath, we will not know the verdict until later on, maybe next month. At least between now and then, let us just come and just be neighborly. Right, and I know that the bishop also talked about, you know, a very famous, infamous case from the 50s, right? Yes, Emmett Till, you know, this was a teenager in 1955. He was accused of flirting with a white woman in a grocery store, and he was dragged out

and brutally beaten and thrown in a river. The two white men accused in his death were swiftly acquitted. And Emmett Till's story really is one of these big civil rights cases. And many people, including Bishop Howell, are saying, you know, this case comes close to the impact for the civil rights movement in America. Every time we see a brutality incident such as George Floyd, it takes us back to those days and reminds us just how nasty racism is in our country. And so I think that reaction to the video really sparked the outrage because not only is history being repeated, but now we actually see raw footage of what hate can do

to a man whose human rights were taken away. Speaking of Emmett Till, I know you actually saw Emmett Till's cousin speak at a news conference in Minneapolis last Friday. The past is not past until justice prevails. Can you tell me about that conference? Who was there and why did they hold this conference? It was very emotional. There were many families who've had altercations with police, black families who've lost sons or mostly young sons.

My son's name was Walter Crowley. Oh, shit. We got your back. We got, shit. We got your back. We got your back. We got your back. We got your back. Amongst the people there was the cousin of Emmett Till, and she talked about how it's so difficult to understand

that since 1955 and now, there doesn't seem to be much change. She said, Minnesota, Mississippi. I don't see much of a difference. So here we are. Mississippi was where Till was killed. Here she is many generations later, talking about how the injustices of the past are relived in a trial like this. We are still, close to to 66 years fighting for justice. Something is

wrong with that. When the last living accomplice has never been charged, has been covered in police protection, judicial protection. Sounds similar, doesn't it i know valerie castile also spoke at this press conference this is the mother of philando castile a black man who was shot and killed by police in 2016 in saint paul minnesota the officer in that case was acquitted and what's the significance of the derrick chauvin trial for her well know, this was a case where a police officer did go to trial, was acquitted. According to one community group, there have been four such instances and only once was a police officer found guilty. So for her, the whole aftermath of her son's death is still very controversial. He was shot five times. That man was so close to my son's body that the blowback

went back on him and there was a bullet casing inside the car. And she's really a voice for change, a voice for legislative change. They have a whole list of demands that they want the government in this state and around America really to actually pay attention to, you know, banning chokeholds, banning this qualified immunity for police officers. A number of reforms that they say have been on the books for years. And in fact, had they been enacted before, maybe this wouldn't have happened. We're not going to tolerate a sit back and not say nothing about the murder of our children, because it could be any one of you. Any one of you could be murdered by the police and nothing will be done because they were in fear for their life.

We're going to have to be brutally honest with what's going on in this country. The only person that's in jail is the black guy. So she gave a very impassioned, rising cry to the people in that room and really sent it out to legislators saying, we're listening. We are not going to stop. We're not going to sit down. This killing and this trial has put more pressure on you and government to actually make meaningful change.

But we stand here today in unity and in force. We're here in force. We're here in force. And of course, at the heart of this story is the family of George Floyd, right? And you've spoken to the family's lawyer, Ben Crump. And what did he tell you about what's on their minds right now? You know, Ben Crump is a big character in the civil rights movement in America. He's acted for many families, Black families, on police brutality cases in the last 10 years. You know, Breonna Taylor. Black families on police brutality cases in the last 10 years. You know, Breonna Taylor.

Breonna's legacy will be that Black women's life matters too. So he was at George Floyd Square days after the killing with Floyd's son, you know, thundering that this is once again evidence of racial injustice. Not seven minutes, not eight minutes, but almost nine minutes, George Floyd begged for air. And he says that the family is very, very anxious. They're anxious for justice. To them, justice means a conviction, and not just a conviction, but a conviction to the fullest extent of the law. But important to understand that his clients, the family, and Ben Crump are not directly involved with this case. This is the state of Minnesota against Derek Chauvin. It's a criminal case, a criminal murder case. Family members are in that court.

Only one member of each family permitted in the court because of COVID precautions. But it is my belief that George Floyd family would get something very rare, justice in both the criminal case as well as the civil case. And I want to talk a little bit more about what's happening in the court in a moment. But Susan, have we heard at all from Derek Chauvin and his family? Do we know what they're thinking as this trial gets underway? Not a lot. Derek Chauvin has been on bail. But, you know, for security reasons and probably many, many others, we have not heard a lot from the Chauvin family. His defense lawyer has made it very clear and very firm to media that he will not be speaking until the verdict is released, until after that time.

And so he will not be giving any comment or analysis of the events inside the courtroom. be giving any comment or analysis of the events inside the courtroom. Whereas the Attorney General's office is releasing statements, sending directives out to media about certain legal motions. And of course, you've got the Floyd family and their lawyer, Ben Crump. So you've got a lot of voices on one side and very little on the other. And what, if anything, have we heard from the Minneapolis police? Well, we heard a lot from them in the days following the killing. Chauvin and the three other officers were fired from the force. The police chief talked about what happened. I did not need days or weeks or months or processes or bureaucracies

to tell me that what occurred out here, it was wrong. Interestingly, he is on a prospective list of witnesses to come before this trial and be questioned in the murder charges against Derek Chauvin. But we haven't heard a great deal from Minneapolis police, other than that there's been this 10 months of tension and difficulty with police officers, some retiring. You know, you've heard a lot about defund the police. There's been no movement on those types of initiatives.

They may go to a ballot next November with the city. So the police force is under pressure. Hmm. Open Zen free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income?

That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. to this podcast, just search for Money for Cops. So I want to come back now to the machinations at the courthouse. And I want to talk about what's happening inside that courtroom. But first, let's talk about what's happening outside the courthouse. So you talk about tensions. I know there have been big demonstrations there. And also, Susan, there are a lot of pretty intense security measures, right? what did you see? Yeah around the courthouse around City Hall downtown Minneapolis you know scenes we've seen

in DC in Washington recently cement barricades three meter high fences what they call concertina wire which is particularly difficult in between these fences. The National Guard of the state of Minnesota has been called up. It's going to cost upwards of $40 million at least for this security. They're trying to protect the courthouse, city hall, administration from any kind of violence that may erupt because of what's heard inside that courtroom. But, you know, the demonstrators outside who were there on the first day on Monday, they see this as protecting the institution, protecting the police, protecting the system that has failed them in the past.

So even the security has become a controversial issue. Ain't no justice in this town. Ain't no justice in this town. Ain't no justice in this town. Ain't no justice in this town. controversial issue. So let's talk about what's going on inside the courtroom now. I know the jury selection started this week, and this is expected to take possibly a couple of weeks. And selecting a jury in a case that is this famous and this politicized and where the video of the event was seen by so many people. I mean, this just strikes me as a pretty challenging case to choose a jury for. And what are they doing to try and select these jurors? Yeah, imagine if you approached a jury thinking you're trying to find people who knew very little about the case.

Well, that's near impossible in this murder trial. So they sent out a 14-page questionnaire to jury members who came up in the rotation and asked them things like, you know, what's your opinion of Black Lives Matter? How do you feel about race relations? They're trying to weed out bias. They are also trying to, you know, sort of investigate what people think about the George Floyd death. You know, do they have a very strong opinion? I mean, some defense lawyers in Minneapolis are saying, look, you're not going to get an impartial jury. What you're going to get is a jury that believes it's impartial. There's a difference there. So we're seeing a lot of questions in court about their beliefs and how much they saw the video and what parts of the video did they see and what do they think about whether there has been

excessive force used by police. And they're trying to tease out any particular bias from one side or the other. We want to know what you've heard and seen, and you might have informed opinions about it. That's fine. But when you're a juror, you have to decide the case based on the law and only the evidence that you hear in court. Do you think you could do that? I think so. I've tried my best. What do experts say about what each side will likely be looking for in jurors? Well, it's a vast generalization, but in the main, that the defense may be looking for conservative-minded jurors, perhaps white jurors, and that the prosecution is looking for more black or people of color on the jury, and perhaps those who have more liberal or progressive views. So these lines may be divided, but in the end, the jury will be a combination because

the defense and the prosecution have the right to strike down jurors that they feel are too opinionated against them. Right. I understand the defense can dismiss up to like 15 jurors. The prosecution can dismiss up to nine. You've got to think that the racial makeup of this jury is going to be heavily scrutinized here. It will be. Yeah. So I want to talk to you about the arguments that we're likely to hear from the prosecution and from the defense once the actual trial gets started, which I understand will be televised, and this is the first time that that's gonna happen

in Minnesota, and that seems incredibly significant because so many people are gonna be watching this. We are just five days away from the start of the death of George Floyd murder trial, which you will see right here on Court TV. Our cameras inside the courtroom, our microphones inside the courtroom. My understanding is that even with this

horrific video, which to many people probably seems like really clear-cut evidence of murder, legal experts say proving second-degree murder here will not be easy for the prosecution, right? Yeah, I mean, I've heard Floyd family lawyers, for example, say that it's absolute, quote, common sense after watching the video that what happened to George Floyd was murder. This irrefutable evidence that he kept his knee on George Floyd's neck while he begged for his life. And so I am of the opinion that he will be convicted. And that's what many believe. But in court, for a conviction on second-degree unintentional murder, prosecutors have to prove that Derek Chauvin caused his death.

So what that means is we're going to hear a lot of experts on medical testimony. What actually caused him to stop breathing and when did that happen? We're also going to hear from the medical examiner who did the autopsy on George Floyd, and he's going to raise things like evidence of drugs in Floyd's system. And there will be questions about, well, how much drugs and how did that affect his breathing? And could that have been a causal factor in his death. So those things will be raised by defense and that's bound for sure to provoke a lot of angry emotion as people say that, you know, this was not a drug-related issue,

but this man stopped breathing because of the knee on his neck. So, you know, inside and outside the courtroom, that will become very controversial evidence for sure. You know, we've heard similar arguments used a lot in trials or investigations of police, right? Even in Canada. I know last year, I remember Officer Daniel Moncion was acquitted of manslaughter and assault charges in the death of Abdi Rahman, Abdi in Ottawa. While trying to arrest him, two officers struck him with batons and kicked him. Constable Moncion punched him in the face while wearing knuckle-plated reinforced gloves. We started to hear an individual who we thought was Mr. Abdi begin to scream in pain and panic. And we've also seen similar outcomes when people who died after being tasered are found to have drugs in their system.

Yes, and George Floyd did have a history of heart disease according to the autopsy report. So that also will be part of this. I think, too, it's important to remember that the manslaughter charge, so second-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter, The manslaughter charge, so second-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter, requires proof of culpable negligence that Chauvin was taking unreasonable risk and took a chance of causing death or great bodily harm. And for the prosecution, they may see that charge as more easily proven, perhaps, in their case. And the problem is that the manslaughter charge, the maximum sentence for that is 10 years. But add to that, Jamie, that this judge has to take into consideration sentencing guidelines in the state of Minnesota. And those guidelines say maybe 10 to 15 years, even for a conviction on

the second degree murder charge. So back to Bishop Howell. He has got to prepare his community that this will not be a life sentence, even if there is a conviction, that this will not be one life taken for one life given. I personally believe he's going to get the verdict of guilty. I believe he's going to get it. And so if everyone can just take a deep breath, let us wait and pause and not let this city become destroyed on assumptions and preoccupied thinking before the verdict has been handed out. Susan, for so many people you spoke to in Minneapolis,

are they expecting a guilty verdict here? That depends very much on who you speak to. In the black communities, the families that we've spoken to throughout the last 10 months, absolutely. And not just in Minneapolis, but across the United States and in many other places in the world. They expect that what they saw on that video is what Ben Crump calls ocular proof of murder. Once you see that video, you cannot unsee that video. And that's why people have been galvanized in cities all across America, in fact, in cities all across the globe. That has to be proven in court, obviously. There are others who believe that historically,

believe that historically, police in this country have not been held accountable or found guilty of controversial death, and that the system in this case may again allow Derek Chauvin to be acquitted. And what do you think could possibly happen if there isn't a conviction here? I know you spoke to Floyd's family lawyer, Ben Crump, about this, and he thinks that if there's not a conviction, there could be huge unrest. Well, he says if there's not a conviction, then it would be one of the worst miscarriages of justice in the history of America. of justice in the history of America. Everyone is concerned about the verdict. Really? Either way, Jamie.

In a broader sense, are the people that you spoke to in Minneapolis, the protesters, the people at George Floyd Square, are they hopeful that the events of the past nine months in the city will bring about any real change when it comes to racial justice? Many of them are. Talking about how long the fight for racial equality has been going on in this country, Pamela Weems was in George Floyd Square this weekend, a very tall, beautiful woman wearing black leggings, black t-shirt, raising her fist in the air with a large black afro. And when we spoke to her, she said, I was here during the 60s, during the same march in the 60s. It's 2021 and I'm still here fighting the same fight. You know, fighting for civil rights in those traumatic and important

days in the civil rights movement. And she was very hopeful about the response to this tragic, horrific death. And I have faith in all these young people that are taking over now. I have faith that it's going to happen. It's a rainbow coalition. And Minnesota represents all of us. She said, I'm up there fighting with them again, but I feel quite optimistic this time that something could change, could come as a result of this. Many of them are, albeit pragmatists, about how difficult it is to make changes.

how difficult it is to make changes. And they see this almost as if this video of this man's death cannot provoke change legislatively within policing, a whole re-examination of police power in America, then what else can? But I think regardless, you know, some people in the community are not going to be happy, happy regardless of the turnout, because it's just been oppression so long, so much distrust between the NPD and the community. It's a lot of bridges that need to be rebuilt again. Susan Armisen, thank you so much. You're welcome. All right, so before we go today, Corey Hurin has been sentenced to six years in jail. This is the 46-year-old Canadian Armed Forces reservist who

stormed the gates of Rideau Hall last summer with rounds of ammunition and loaded firearms. He wanted to arrest the Prime Minister, according to an agreed statement of facts that was read out in the courtroom. He said he hoped his actions would be a, quote, wake-up call. That's all for today. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner. We'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.