Front Burner - The trucker convoy heads to Ottawa

Episode Date: January 28, 2022

Across Canada this week, groups of truckers opposed to a vaccination mandate for cross-border truck drivers have been making their way to Ottawa to protest. But as the convoy has gained momentum, others — some with violent messages — have latched onto the movement. Today, we'll first hear from Harold Jonker, a trucker leading one of the convoys to Ottawa. Then, we'll speak to CBC senior parliamentary reporter Travis Dhanraj about the broader context around this story, and how it's playing out politically.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. So, I probably don't need to tell you that a lot of people, many of them driving semi-trucks, are expected to arrive in Ottawa on Saturday. Drop the mandates across the board for every single man, woman and child across Canada. Until January 15th, truckers were exempted from federal rules that require people to quarantine for 14 days after crossing the Canada-U.S. border, unless they're vaccinated. But now the federal government has removed that exemption.

has removed that exemption. So while the majority of truckers are vaccinated, this week, groups of truckers who oppose the mandate have been setting off from different parts of Canada, bound to Ottawa, to protest. And as the truckers' convoy has grown in popularity, we're also seeing their cause taken out by non-truckers. Some insane amount of people, like 50,000 trucks, that are headed to Ottawa to protest the vaccine mandates by Trudeau.

From Donald Trump Jr. and Joe Rogan to Canadian MPs and then also more extremist elements. I'm talking about white supremacists, people talking about violence. In a little bit, we're going to speak to a CBC reporter about what some experts are anticipating could happen this week in Ottawa and how politicians are responding. But first, we wanted to hear from one of those truckers. Harold Jonker is a truck driver in southern Ontario who is leading a convoy to Ottawa. And he's also a councillor for the township of West Lincoln in the Niagara region. Hi Harold, thank you very much for making the time to come on to the podcast today. Well, thanks for reaching out to me and inviting me to speak today. It's very appreciated. And we're thankful that the media is reaching out and trying to get the true story on this.

And we look forward to speaking today. So I know that you're going to be leading one of these convoys to Ottawa on Friday. And I wonder if you could tell me why was it important to you to get involved with this? The reason why I got involved with this is for a lot of reasons. And I've had a lot of concerns with the mandates, masks, vaccinations and such. And I don't agree with a lot of how the governments have been approaching this.

And what I think has happened is the protests that have been happening have constantly been ignored. The government is constantly ignoring people's freedom, people's rights in these mandates. And at the end of the day, I think the thing that pushed me over the edge was that interview that our premier had against anybody that's not vaccinated. I don't know the three words that he used exactly. Racist, bigot and misogynist. But there are also people who are fiercely opposed to vaccination.

Who are extremists. Who don't believe in science. Who are often misogynist, often racist too. And it's not just Trudeau, but I think all our politicians have disappointed Canadians and have stopped actually representing Canadians and something else. Right. I just want to be clear, you're talking about the Prime Minister when you talk about those remarks, Prime Minister Trudeau? Prime Minister Honourable Trudeau. And he's a man that we still have to respect, but there's concerns there. I wonder if you could tell me specifically, because I just want to be clear here, what it is that you are against. I'm against mandating masks and the whole fact that our freedoms have been eroded and we're not getting information. We're not getting truth.

There's COVID, but there's also side effects from these vaccinations that are being withheld for some reason or another. And that's where I'm gravely concerned. You feel that there has been misinformation about side effects of the vaccine that's being withheld? Do you have an example of that? being withheld i wonder do you have an example of that yeah there is a a fellow that spoke to the toronto city health board i believe it was a couple weeks ago about a couple weeks ago about and said, the Pfizer vaccine killed my son. And he got a second opinion on the autopsy, and that's what the second opinion said. So I'm not familiar with this specific case that you're talking about here,

but I think that the response to that from the scientific community, from medical experts, would be that the overwhelming evidence through peer-reviewed studies is that they're safe. And so, yeah. And I think what's happening is there's information being suppressed. And that's a grave concern and it is like when when you have a doctor malone who is is speaking out against it how we're using it where are we canada where are we where's our politicians where's the media we right there needs to be some digging in to like to find the truth i i just i just want to just for our listeners uh you're talking about dr malone he's become a very controversial figure um he sort of talked about how uh um vaccine he's sort of like linked vaccine mandates to mass psychosis. And he was just

the subject of a Joe Rogan podcast and actually 270 doctors and other experts wrote to object to his views and what he said on the podcast. Yeah, but also that's where the media is not doing their job and actually figuring out what's like really 270 doctors spoke against it but how many spoken agreeing with it and that's where that's what's not happening we're not having a proper debate on this we're basically being told told, you know, Dr. Malone is like,

he's bringing what he knows. Let's have proper debates. And that's what we want. When you look at the support we're getting, I think Canadians are saying, this has gone on long enough, and we want some truth. On a personal level, how is this mandate, mandating that truck drivers crossing the border have to be vaccinated? How is it impacting you and your work? It's basically, I don't, I run a trucking company and I do drive the truck myself quite a bit. I can't cross the border right now. That's personal information, by the way, that I shouldn't actually be sharing with the public.

But I can't cross the border so that you know then that i'm not vaccinated i appreciate you sharing that information because you don't you don't have to so thank you yeah and and just think about that right sharing health information that's personal is unbelievable in today's society it's like that's that's never done before but anyways i I personally can't cross the border. And about half of my truckers, truck drivers can't cross the border. So our government is removing my ability to provide for my family. And I have been blessed with a lot of kids and I don't know how I can provide for them. But do know that this is wrong and I do know that at the end of the day I'm sure I can find work other in other spots but I want to continue providing a service that our customers enjoy and that's our we run a trucking company that

great supplies great service, and that's being taken away. We have customers that can't get their steel moved right now because half of our trucks are parked. We have customers that can't move their steel to factories where they can make product and then bring it back here to Canada so that we can build train parts. So it's going to affect every aspect of a canadian's life food goods how how how vaccinated people can work if they don't have parts coming into the factory you're not

going to be able to work and that's what canadians are starting to realize that this is affecting more than just the mandated people that can't work. It's affecting every single Canadian. Sorry about the truck horn. So I want to keep talking about that with you for a minute. But I just I just want to ask you a question about one thing that you said in there, which was at the beginning, when you talked about how we have never had to share our health information before, but children have to prove vaccination for many diseases when they go to school. Are you against that as well? Yeah. No, there's certain vaccinations and shots that children do get that's been proven to be safe, that has proven after studying it for five, 10 years,

that these vaccinations or these shots for tetanus, these shots for smallpox are safe. What we are being forced to take right now is an experimental vaccine that has never been used before the and and it's not been tested proper it's been created in in a year and a half and it's it's safe they they don't know what it's going to do to people's bodies in five years so no thank you i don't want it until i know it's not going to affect my heart that it's not going to affect my heart, that it's not going to affect my immunity system, and so many other things. And I just, you know, I am not trying to be antagonistic here, but I just, I want to note sort of the other side to that argument is that actually the mRNA technology has been around for a very long time. I'll read it to their story i'm going to interject it's been around for a long long time but you it's never been approved to be used interesting well certainly it has been approved by every uh health body uh in the world. And also subjected to rigorous peer reviewed scientific studies.

But I don't believe that there are any concerns around its safety. There is a lot of concerns around its safety. That's the sad part. I wanted to ask you to, you know, you talked about some of the consequences that you think could happen here about grocery stores. 85% of truckers are vaccinated, according to the Canadian Trucking Alliance. And so that's a fairly large number. That's a fairly large number.

And so do you think that the 15% who aren't vaccinated are really going and can't cross the borders? Is that really going to create a lot of problems? Yeah, it is going to create a lot of problems. I disagree with the Canadian Trucking Association on a lot of things. First of all, they don't represent truck drivers they represent big corporations and bigger trucking companies and secondly the 15 we can debate that until we're blue in the face but if you just go with a 20 if 20 of truck drivers cannot cross the border that means 6 000 trucks per day are not crossing the border and when you when you consider how much weight a truck carries that's 250 to 270 million pounds per day not crossing the border that's a lot of. That's a lot of goods.

That's a lot of groceries. And yeah, many drivers are vaccinated, but a very high percentage of them have been coerced. They don't want to lose their truck. They don't want to lose their job. And they're being coerced into doing this, just like it's been done to the nurses,

the police, the firefighters. It's unacceptable. Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know

their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together.

To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I want to play you a clip now. Earlier this week, we spoke to a truck driver named Laurent Flambourari, and he's based in Burnaby, B.C., and he is double vaccinated. And I'm just hoping that you can listen to what he had to say and then uh and then respond to it yes you can say no i don't want to to get the vaccine i don't want anything at all in my body that's purely fine but after that there are consequences because you can cross the border you can't uh go the way you used to go to the United States or returning back to Canada with some quarantine and stuff like that, which is very frustrating. If you want to go back to your freedom, to your own freedom, just get the vaccine. So I wonder what you think of that argument that it's your choice to not get the vaccine, but that there are consequences to that choice

and that actually freedom would come with being vaccinated. What do you think of what Laurent is saying there? Yeah, even the vaccinated are locked down right now. Think about this. They're actually lying to us. We don't have freedom anymore. I don't have freedom anymore. I don't have freedom anymore. Sorry, that driver's totally wrong.

I have a choice, and my choice is I don't want to be vaccinated. I would love to work. That's my choice. And sadly, he's wrong. For us Canadians to continue to give in to these tyranny, I'm not saying that exactly well, but just think about it. Y'all, you have a choice. Just go get a needle. Well, sorry, that's not a choice. That's cohesion. That's being forced upon a society that doesn't want it. This is unprecedented in Canada's history in forcing people to take a needle that they don't want. I think a lot of people would agree with you that are frustrated

with government right now. They're tired of lockdowns and restrictions and a lot of flip flopping by governments and that they also they want their lives back. I think a lot of people share that sentiment. But they say, or they feel that the way out of this situation is vaccination, right? That, in fact, it is the unvaccinated that are prolonging the problem because it's mostly unvaccinated people who are being treated for COVID in our ICU and overwhelming the hospitals. Why do you think that's wrong? I appreciate what you're trying to do and you're and i hope you you but but you got to realize this is not this is not

science anymore this is not about covid this is about control and you know everything take everything away until we say yes it's not a choice and that's where jonker trucking has been supporting this and we're going to continue to support it and we want everybody in canada to understand this is not a bunch of terrorists this is a bunch of truck drivers a bunch of police officers nurses and farmers and the general public i got family coming and we need to keep this fully respectful but it's gonna continue and until oh harold we lost him oh i think he's back harold are you back

yeah i'm in i'm in rural country here. Okay. I do have to get going. I appreciate the interview. Oh, Harold, we still have to talk about. And I hope that we. I just do want to respond to, to one thing that you just said, if that's okay. And I do really appreciate the time. I think we've been quite fair to you. There's been a really respectful conversation. So I do appreciate it. But let me do this. You talked about the group who will be there in Ottawa. And as this convoy has gained popularity, we have seen

some groups and individuals with extremist ideas who often don't have any connection to trucking latch on to the movement. There are known white nationalists who often don't have any connection to trucking latch onto the movement. There are known white nationalists who say they're planning to go to Ottawa this weekend, and some appear to be calling for violence against politicians. And we've seen some people online calling for something like January 6, 2021 in Washington when a mob stormed the U.S. Capitol. And I want to be clear here, I'm not trying to suggest that you share any of those ideas. You've been clear about your own reasons for joining the convo

in this conversation. I'm just wondering what you think about people with extremist ideas latching on to the movement like this, and that some of those people might be there in Ottawa with you on Saturday. Yeah, we're not there for violence. if there if it does happen i i think people are gonna step step up they we will not allow it it's that's full does it bother you yeah does it bother you the people like that what bothers me is that the media keeps asking what what bothers me is that the media keeps asking about it and they're almost feeding the idea. This is not a terrorist group. We are not going to accept any terrorist acts. And we are a peaceful rally bringing a message for all Canadians to our leaders saying we want our freedoms back. Look at our Charter of Rights and please enforce it.

God keep our land glorious and free. We sing that every time we sing the national anthem. And that's for every Canadian. Every Canadian. Harold, thank you for your time and for coming on to the show and sharing your views with us. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. So now we're going to zoom out a bit to look at some of the broader context around the story and how it's playing out politically. And for that, I'm speaking to Travis Danradge. He's a

senior parliamentary reporter for CBC, and he has been following this story. Hey, Travis, it's such a pleasure to have you on the show. Big fan of the show, so happy to be here. Thank you very much. Big fan of yours as well. So in a moment, I want to get into the convoy itself and what may be happening when people converge in Ottawa on Saturday. But I want to start by talking about a more bread and butter kind of issue, which is supply chains. Very sexy. This has been one of the main arguments in favor of continuing to exempt truck drivers from the cross-border vaccine mandate. And Harold, who we just talked to, said he thinks it's really affecting and going to affect supply issues,

you know, groceries at our grocery stores. And of course, I just want to acknowledge this is a global pandemic. We have seen supply issues all over the place, all over the world, supply chain issues. But what do we know about how much this mandate on truckers specifically might worsen the supply chain issues we're already seeing in Canada? And it is a big concern because as you said, this is eye level. This is literally a kitchen table issue. And I think that there are two issues right now when it comes to the trucker situation specifically.

There are sick calls because of COVID. There are either truckers who have gotten sick due to the virus or have been exposed to the virus and are off right now. But there are also shortages when it comes to staff because truckers don't want to comply with this mandate and they're not able to work. So the Retail Council of Canada put out a statement on this recently. They said that they are hearing from some of their clients already that there have been significant impacts.

They are experiencing difficulties finding carriers for some of their loads to the United States. But there are other clients that say right now it's not affecting their schedule. So it's kind of a to-be-determined issue. But you're right, this is broader than just the truckers. And I guess we should just note here something that we didn't have time to get into with Harold. The U.S. has also implemented a mandatory vaccination policy for all Canadians crossing the border, including truckers. So even in the event that Canada were to roll back this policy, presumably that supply chain issue would still stand, hey? Yeah, and that is one of the big contradictions here. I mean, if Canada drops their mandate,

it probably is not going to move the needle by much because the White House does not seem to be moving on this or really paying attention to this issue up here at all, and their mandate looks to be firm. Okay. All right. So now back to the convoy itself. This started as a plan for long haul truck drivers to go to Ottawa to protest against the cross border vaccination mandate. And of course, it still is that. We just talked to one of those truck drivers. But it seems like this has also snowballed into something a lot bigger than that. It has become in recent days, in the past week or two, this magnet for all kinds of different causes, really. And we have seen this with anti-lockdown marches

across the country, other causes getting involved. I was talking to one organizer on the phone. He didn't want to be officially interviewed, but he was telling me a little bit about how he feels as though the cause, the main cause of this, which is fighting that vaccine mandate, dealing with some of these supply chain issues, has been hijacked by others. You've got voices like Joe Rogan, the big podcaster in the United States, weighing in, saying that Canada is in a state of crisis right now. You've got Donald Trump Jr., who did a Facebook Live the other day, talking about this issue, showing videos. There's a convoy of trucks, tractor trailers now, assembling in Canada that right now is 70 kilometers long. I'm going to play the video at the end of this thing so you can see for yourself.

Because when we get together and when we stand together and when we push back against the insanity, we can win. And that's how this all ends, okay? So this is a genius idea. We need to see more of this here in the U.S. And railing against mandates and saying that this is an infringement upon freedoms. So you've got a lot of different voices now entering the equation. And I think there is frustration from some folks that started out with, you know, what they saw as their main cause, feeling like this is now being co-opted. And, you know, something that we brought up with Harold as well, that there are also

white nationalists, et cetera, no? There are white nationalist voices. And I mean, this is one of the difficult issues when it comes to covering this, because there are those voices that are part of the equation. Pat King is someone who is claiming to be an organizer. We're not just driving and doing this and then turning around going rah, rah, rah. No, no, no, no. If Ottawa wants to shut down the country by their huge overreach, we're going to shut them down. Shut down Ottawa.

huge overreach. We're going to shut them down. Shut down Ottawa. That's what the goal is, is to depopulate the Anglo-Saxon race because they are the ones with the strongest bloodlines. He has had

homophobic, racist, white national views that he's put out there on social media in videos previously and now other organizers of the convoy are distancing themselves from him, but he was listed as an organizer. So it goes back to what one of those truckers was telling me about how this is really distracting from the cause. And it is causing a lot of concern for some folks that are in the convoy that have what they feel are legitimate concerns that they say are being drowned out. Right. And I'm glad that you brought up that it's tricky when we're covering it,

because we also, we don't want to overstate the presence or importance of fringe elements, though still important to talk about them. One of the things that's gotten really big as the convoy has gotten more popular is this GoFundMe fundraiser for the truckers. And it's become very controversial. And so can you tell me about that as well? It's quite incredible. And it's probably higher than this right now. But when I last checked, it was up by $5.7 million.

That has gone up by millions in the past couple of days. And so there are a lot of questions about the money. This main GoFundMe page, well, the money has, it's being held right now because the company wants assurances in terms of how it is going to be distributed. And so they want documentation from the organizer to show that the money is going to go for what its set-out purpose was, and that is for fuel for these truck drivers, for lodging, for food as well. And there are also

questions about whether or not foreign money is coming in. There are no restrictions on who can donate to this GoFundMe page, and a lot of the donations are anonymous. They've got anonymous next to the name, and it's like $10,000, $11,000, $12,000. You know, the leader of the NDP, that is, Jagmeet Singh, we got a statement from him yesterday because we found out that his brother-in-law actually donated $13,000 to this fund. And Jagmeet Singh said that he had to have a difficult conversation with his brother-in-law about this money and some of the questions around where it was going to go and that there aren't really some firm answers. And now his brother-in-law is trying to get the money back. But certainly, yeah, the money is a big part of this equation.

Man, not to make light of this, but I would really have loved to have been a fly on the wall at that family conversation. I imagine it was pretty awkward. There are security experts who have concerns about what might happen in Ottawa on Saturday. So how is the federal government and law enforcement preparing for Saturday? Well, I mean, I think, you know, security officials, government sources that we have talked to that don't want to be officially cited and have their names out there, they say that they're concerned, right? out there, they say that they're concerned, right? When there is rhetoric about this event turning into something like January 6th, even if it's a few fringe voices, that is still a legitimate security concern. So the Ottawa Police, they're going to be taking the lead on this. They're the

lead agency, but they're also working in coordination with Parliamentary Protective Service. That's the security operation that deals with Parliament Hill, and the RCMP, they're going to set up a joint operations centre, not only to monitor that main demonstration that is scheduled for this weekend, but also any possible counter protests that might pop up. There is a discrepancy, though, here when it comes to the numbers. The police are saying that they're preparing to deal with thousands of people, and organisers say that there could be half a million folks that show up. We don't know the numbers. We won't know the numbers until this weekend.

And we won't know whether or not there are going to be incidents, of course, that pop up until this weekend as well. What has the Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, said about the convoy? So he was asked about this this week, and specifically about some of these voices that are on the fringe. He says, you know, that the vast majority of truckers, he says 90 percent are vaccinated, that they are in line with other Canadians that he says are doing their duty and getting vaccinated and being responsible. And he calls this convoy a fringe movement that are going to be voicing their opinion on Parliament Hill that they certainly have the right to do that. The small

fringe minority of people who are on their way to Ottawa or who are holding unacceptable views that they're expressing do not represent the views of Canadians. He says, you know, that he doesn't see this as a major issue because they're not in line with the rest of where Canada is. Yeah, I mean, I will note in our conversation with Harold, he brought up how angry he was about this interview that Trudeau did in French last year, where he said essentially that some anti-vaxxers were essentially extremists who hold racist and misogynist ideas. And so I do get the impression

that Trudeau is not particularly worried about making this group of people angry, hey? I don't think so. And I mean, you know, that video didn't get a lot of traction at the time, but certainly it has gone viral since it happened. And I mean, this has been one of the criticisms of the prime minister by the Conservatives, that he is demonizing the unvaccinated instead of talking to them. He is talking at them. He is not willing to make reasonable accommodations. But the prime minister, for his part, he doesn't seem concerned about any of this. It looks as though, from my viewpoint, that the mandate is staying. The prime minister is not moving on this one. Yeah. Let's talk about the conservatives now. What responses are we hearing

from conservative MPs about the convoy? So, I mean, well, let's talk about Aaron O'Toole first off. But I mean, this is the thing, though, right? There have been various responses from the conservatives on this. And the leader specifically, earlier this week, he was pressed a number of times by reporters, including myself, about whether or not he is with the convoy or not, whether or not he's going to meet with truckers. You didn't answer my question. Yes, I did, Glenn.

You didn't say whether you... Vaccines are a critical tool. You didn't say whether you'd meet with them. And we need to make sure we keep store shelves full. Maybe you can answer in response to my next question, sir. You can say whether you'd meet with them. That's why last week, Glenn, when the policy... He hasn't said whether or not he's going to meet with anybody specifically in the organization of this convoy,

but he did come out just in the past 24 hours with an op-ed where he takes a bit more of a nuanced approach. He says he does support truckers. He feels as though this mandate is going to affect the supply chain. But he also took a firm stance against some of these extremist voices, saying that he denounces that kind of rhetoric and that he does not want to see violence, but also supports Canadians' right to protest. So he is trying to kind of walk this fine line, whereas you're seeing some other Conservative MPs, Pierre Palliev and also Andrew Scheer, who have come out very strongly saying that

they are 100% behind these truckers and that it is the mainstream media that is trying to vilify everyone because of a few bad apples in the barrel. And that if this was a protest on the left, you would not see that happening. So they're going to have a harder time kind of walking back those comments if things do go sideways this weekend. Okay. Travis, thank you. Thank you so much for this. And we'll keep in touch with you over the next couple of days. Absolutely. Thanks, Jamie. All right. So before we go today, a couple of updates. After we recorded with Travis, GoFundMe said it had released $1 million of the $6.2 million

collected for the truckers. They said the fundraiser's organizer has now provided a distribution plan for the money and that the $1 million will go to convoy participants to cover their fuel costs. GoFundMe also said they're working with the organizers to release the rest of the money once the participants have received those withdrawn funds. And also Aaron O'Toole has now said that he is planning to meet with truckers in Ottawa. That's all for this week. FrontBurner is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show is produced this week by Imogen Burchard, Ali Janes, Katie Toss, Simi Bassi, and Derek Vanderwyk.

Our sound design was by Mackenzie Cameron and Nooradeen Karane. Our music is by Joseph Shabison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of Frontburner is Nick McKay-Blocos, and I'm Jamie Poisson. Thank you very much for listening, and we'll talk to you on Monday.