Front Burner - The Ukrainians fleeing and resisting in Lviv

Episode Date: March 8, 2022

In a flash, a view of Ukrainian civilians fleeing down a street in Irpin becomes only concrete dust. The scene captured in a video Sunday shows a mortar shell falling in the street, killing three family members and a family friend — including two children. This is the kind of danger looming over the people of Ukraine. Some have decided to leave their homes and loved ones behind to risk an escape. Others who must stay are helping to ready a resistance to the overwhelming Russian military power. CBC senior correspondent Susan Ormiston is in the city of Lviv in Western Ukraine, where she’s been talking to Ukrainians, both those who are fleeing and those getting ready to fight. Today, she brings us to a train station, a border crossing, a bomb shelter and a barricade, and explains how Ukrainians have made these impossible choices — if they had any choice at all.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Shit! Shit, shit, shit. The sound of this single mortar shell Sunday in Ukraine is a reminder that no one is really safe, not even civilians fleeing for their lives.

even civilians fleeing for their lives. Come on medic! Medic! Ukrainian soldiers rush over to bodies left motionless on the streets of Yurpin near Kyiv. But three members of a family die here including two children. A family friend dies with them as well. Blankets are draped over their heads, a suitcase left lying on the pavement. This is the kind of danger looming over the people of Ukraine, as they make the most difficult choices of their lives, if they even have a choice. Do they leave

their homes and loved ones behind to flee, like the UN says over 1.5 million Ukrainians have? The war has begun. The war has begun. It was very scary. Or if they're staying or must stay, do they take up resistance against Russia's terrifying force? Glory to Ukraine! Glory to Ukraine!

Glory to Ukraine! Glory to Ukraine! I'm Jamie Poisson, and today I'm joined by CBC senior correspondent Susan Ormiston. She's in Ukraine right now, where she's been talking to Ukrainians at train stations, the border, weapons training clinics, and bomb shelters. And she'll give us a small look at what it's like for Ukrainians as they make impossible choices, or are left with no choices at all. Hi, Susan. Thank you very, very much for making the time to speak with us today.

Hi, Jamie. Always glad. So the city that you're in is Lviv. It's in the far west of Ukraine. And I know it's sort of the cultural capital of the country, but even this far away from the Russian border, and I know that Russian troops aren't currently close to Lviv. How is it still being transformed by this war? Extraordinarily, really. You know, we've got this beautiful, very Western facing city, you know, Lviv, this part of Ukraine used to be tied more closely even to Poland. But, you know, we spoke to the mayor who told us that, consider this, if Kiev falls, if the capital is attacked and surrounded, then the center of power is moving west to Lviv, partly because it's relatively safe at the moment. And partly because historically, it has had such a important role in Ukraine. So you've got before the actual assault, you had diplomats moving here, embassies moving their business here before they left altogether.

Now you've got humanitarian groups coming in. We're expecting a large first convoy from the UN to come over the border into Lviv very shortly. And people are just streaming into this city in order to either stay safe and wait to see what happens next or to actually get out of the country. It's a pity because, you know, there were times such feeling that we are not allowed to leave. We built the country for so many years and because of somebody's desire, it will be just ruined. That's not normal. And it hurts a lot, really, because it's my country, right?

It's my land. And tell me more about that, the people who are trying to get out of the country. What's it like to be in the crowds at the train station there? It's epic. I've never seen anything like it. I've covered a lot of refugee stories, but the numbers here are staggering.

Over 1.5 million in 10 days. It's incredible. Every time we go to a transit hub, like a train station or a border, we think this is the largest number. And each day after, it's eclipsed. At the train station or a border, we think this is the largest number. And each day after it's eclipsed. At the train station in Lviv, they have had throngs of people just jamming into, it's a large train station, completely full of mainly women and children, some elderly people, all waiting in line,

you know, underneath, trying to get up to those platforms, carrying a few of their belongings, lots of pets, budgies, cats, dogs, all of them just trying to find security and safety and all having gone through trauma in the last days before they arrived there. Many people had their homes shelled. We spoke to many people from Kharkiv who'd been in their basement for six days with very little food and water. We spent there for like five days in Kharkiv during explosions, sorry, and all of this stuff.

And on the sixth day, I think, we decided that it's time to move. Others had seen homes or nearby areas shelled badly. They made it on various train or driving to here to Lviv. And now they were going on the next part of their journey. And the separation, Jamie, between the families, because men are required to stay in country and potentially fight. Yeah. I can't imagine what a difficult decision it is to leave behind your home, your country, and then the men in your life, the fathers, the husbands,

the grandfathers. So why did the people you spoke to say they did decide to leave anyways? I think that the first days of this war, everyone was in shock. And that was the first wave of panic to get out. But a lot of people didn't really expect this degree of war, this shade of war. And so they stayed back for a few more days to see whether the Russians would come closer and whether the Russians would actually be fighting brutally, which they are. And at that point, when they were starting to see residential areas and places close to them being bombarded, then there was a second wave of sheer

panic and people who were already traumatized. But you know, it didn't take much when you asked a person about their journey. When you asked what how difficult was the decision, the question that you just posed, that's when the tears came. Because that's when they opened up fatigued, you know, shocked in trauma, they opened up about their fear of leaving their loved ones behind. Their men, their husbands, their fathers. Because no one knows whether, in fact, they'll be called up to serve, whether they'll be engaged in this brutal war, and whether they'll ever see them again. We cried all yesterday, the whole day.

And even now I'm thinking about human war. Yeah, that's very hard. That's a difficult decision. At the train station, I saw several instances of men, in one case a man with a four-year-old child in his arms alone, tried to get on the train. They saw him get to the stop, ask the border control to get on, show his documents, and he was refused.

Why? Because he's a fighting age. And I asked him after. His wife was in hospital in Kharkiv. He was trying to get his boy out, but he couldn't go. In another case, a young couple, they both tried to get on the train. He was refused. He turned to her and said, will you go without me? And she shook her head, no. It's heartbreaking. And just what happened to the little boy that he tried to get on the train with? Did the boy have to come back with him? He walked down the platform, took a back exit out. And last I saw him was walking down the tracks, you know, out of the train station area, still with this boy in his arms.

the train station area, still with this boy in his arms. And his face, Jamie, was, you know, exhausted, worried, anxious. He had no option here. Susan, it's so heartbreaking to hear these stories. I know you've been on the other side of the border, on the Polish side. And what have you heard from people there, the people who made it there? Well, when we were there over a week ago, it was sort of the first round of this wave of refugees. And, you know, we were stunned to see how long it took to get across the border and how long the people had been waiting for their loved ones. You know, a couple came all the way from Germany to rescue their daughter who was coming across with her son, young son.

She'd been waiting in the lineup of cars on the other side for more than two days. Every day, the parents came. They'd wait overnight to see if she was coming this day. And it didn't happen for quite a long time. We saw reunions, of course. You know, a young boy absolutely sprinting the last few meters after the border into a man's arm, presumably his father or a relative. The relief, the relief, kisses, hugs, this idea of, oh my gosh, you got out. Thank God you got out. You know, sort of a universal sentiment on that side of the border. And now,

you know, it's become quite a reception center. I saw it last night on television. There was a man who brought his piano to the Polish side and was playing for the Ukrainians coming over. And the other family members who were waiting. There's lots of volunteers now offering donations of food and clothing and transport to other places in Europe or in Poland. I need to help, yes, because I don't want to sit on the couch and read the news. It's just developed organically. It's been unbelievable to watch. It's just developed organically. It's been unbelievable to watch. We talked earlier about the men who are required to stay in Ukraine.

Also, there are Ukrainians who are volunteering to organize or fight against the Russians and stay there. And can you tell me about the group that you met in Lviv making what they call smoothies? Yes, Lviv smoothies. They are Molotov cocktails. They're a combination of oil and gas poured into empty wine bottles or beer bottles and stuffed with the rag. And once lit, they become projectiles, very volatile projectiles. And they are making those on order from the military or militia in other parts of Ukraine who need them in their street fights, really. But what impressed me so much was this

group of about 100 in this case had organized organically through social media. You can imagine, you know, I know a friend texting all these kinds of ways people organize these days. And to me, it represented a new resistance front. People in their 20s, young professionals, students saying that we have to defend our country. We defend every one meter of our land. I have only one country, my Ukraine. We've seen what the last generation did in the Maidan, in Ukraine, when they toppled a Russian-backed president,

and they said, it's our turn now. The mantle has been passed to us, and we are going to organize. And not only was their spirit infectious, but you can see that this is a small resistance perhaps now, but if this war goes on for many more months or even years, or if Russia occupies Ukraine, these resistance groups will become part of an insurgency potentially, and will continue to be the opposition to occupation in their country. You have to put your energy somewhere, right? So we put it into barricades. What do you think is going to happen? I think we're going to win this war, right?

There's not any options. And again, they sprung up in three days. You know, we talked to them three days after the assault began, and already they had organized the Lviv smoothies, they had organized food, they were storing them in an underground bunker, an old bomb shelter in an old factory district. They had an organized unit, you know, a way of talking to each other and walkie talkies. Pretty amazing. And then the other thing you're seeing all around Lviv is neighborhoods and groups of people organizing blockades and barricades,

building sandbag barricades and setting up checkpoints to the road leading into their apartment complex or into their village, preparing themselves if the Russian attack comes much closer to Lviv. They want to be ready. They're not taking anything for granted. We've seen in this war, it's completely unpredictable about where these attacks could come and where the offensive will start and where the, you know, the air attacks could come. There's there's air raid sirens almost every night here still. So they're getting ready. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization.

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Yeah, you know, you have a line of guys. You know, there was a guy in finance, a couple of IT specialists. There was a football player, soccer player there. And they're picking up AK-47s and learning the very basics, how to load it, how to cock it, how to, you know, walk with it, how to shoot or carry a weapon lying on their backs and crawling crab-like on their backs. And, you know, ask them, why are you here? And they said, we have to defend our neighborhoods, our families. Problem is there are, defend our neighborhoods, our families. Problem is there are there's no weaponry available for these volunteers. All the heavy weaponry is at the front a long way from here. And Ukraine has

said repeatedly it needs more military equipment, things as simple as helmets or body armor. The mayor told me is very much needed by these volunteer militias. But these guys are working during the day and on weekends getting a bit of AK-47 training. Wow. Yeah, in a basement somewhere in a community center. And it's going on every day across wide swaths of the population here. You can imagine, Jamie, living here in Lviv, beautiful city, consumed by this war, you know, in the other part of their country. You could like look in my eyes and see this, we haven't fear. We could like take weapon. You have no fear? Yeah. Everyone here. Yeah,

everyone here, they try to be ready for everything that happened around us. here, they try to be ready for everything that happened around us. The people who are learning to pick up these weapons, like look, Russia has overwhelming military might at its disposal. Some reports say the Russian military has over four times the amount of active troops versus Ukraine and 10 times the aircraft. And so what do they tell you about why they're still volunteering for this resistance? They say they're going to win. When I say, what do you think is going to happen? We're going to win.

I mean, you can understand why they would say that. They don't want to show weakness. They don't want to admit military inferiority. weakness. They don't want to admit military inferiority. But also they are propelled by passion that so far, Ukraine has not folded. We've heard that many times. In fact, today, someone told me the West believed this would be over in two days. It's not. It's what, 12 days in, we're still standing up. So this kind of resistance to the, you know, overwhelming military might of Russia has given them a lot of confidence, not that they can fight at the same level, but that they can resist. and that in the eyes of the world, they're seen as brave and, you know, ferocious really in their spirit. You know, I asked this young guy in the bomb shelter making

the Molotov cocktails, I said, you know, they have so much military power. And he said to me, we have power in our hearts. I mean, it sounds naive on the one hand and very powerful on the other. Susan, before we go today, I wanted to ask you about a little bit about what's happening in other parts of the country. So even for those who decide to flee Ukraine and leave their homes behind, it is also far from a guarantee for safety, right? And so, for example, can you tell me about what happened in Mariupol this weekend, which is in the eastern part of the country

where there is heavy fighting right now? Yeah, Mariupol, I mean, can you imagine? For the end of last week, it was under siege. The Russians had moved in, cut off the town. People were living in their basements just to survive. They'd run out of water, run out of food, no electricity, heat. And the mayor every night was, you know, sending messages via social media, please, we need help. Our citizens are being shelled into submission here. We can't get out.

This had gone on for several days. And then on the weekend, there was a so-called agreement for a ceasefire and humanitarian corridors, which sounded like a ray of hope. But within hours, it had broken down on both Saturday and Sunday, Jamie. So these people who'd been told to marshal their things and to, you know, scuttle out of their basements and get to three points in the city to escape finally, were told to go back to their shattered homes. I can't imagine the emotion around that. And still on Monday, another ceasefire planned by Russia. But this time they said there's a condition. We will help you get out on evacuation routes, but only to Belarus and Russia. Imagine something the president of Ukraine's office called immoral.

You know, Very difficult situation. So still, these people are trapped. In our introduction, I mentioned shelling near Kiev in a city called Irpin. And the images from this weekend, they are unfathomable. Can you tell me about what we saw? Yeah, European is significant on many fronts.

One is it's so close to Kiev. So obviously the Russians are bombarding areas on the outskirts in order to soften the capital. And they were under heavy bombardment. And at one point on Sunday, people were trying to escape and there was a exposed road and a family ran across that road. And as they ran, a mortar hit the road. And you see it all on videotape. And at the end, a family was dead on the side of the street, an average street on a curb, four people, two children, a dog in a carrier survived. You can hear the dog barking.

Immensely tragic images. I think too, as an observer and as a journalist, what I observed is perhaps a shift here because we've seen a lot of drone footage of destruction in the south and northwest of Ukraine. We've seen some social media of bombardment. But as the Russian forces draw closer to Kiev, there's a lot of media still in the capital city, and they are still venturing out. So the difference with the European was it was ground level video of this tragic evacuation and seeing people running in terror from burning homes and then this mortar captured on video exploding. There's no question that this was not any kind of military installation or anything even close. There were many civilians on that road and they were still shelled. So this kind of changes the image of this war as it gets worse. And many Western analysts are now telling us they

expect it to get tougher, and more bloody and more desperate and many more people will die, unless there's some vast change in the nature of the war. And we're going to see a lot more of that, which is beyond tragic. Susan, thank you so much for this. You're welcome. All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. We'll talk to you tomorrow.