Front Burner - The U.S. Capitol riot and American democracy one year later

Episode Date: January 5, 2022

On Jan. 6, 2021 — the same day Joe Biden’s presidential win was to be certified — an angry mob of Donald Trump supporters stormed the U.S. Capitol in Washington, D.C. At least four people died, dozens were injured and the country's worsening political divisions were exposed. In the days and months that followed, the events of Jan. 6 have been debated, disputed and broadly characterized as a threat to American democracy. To get to the bottom of how it happened and who was responsible, a bipartisan committee made up of seven Democrats and two Republicans was established to investigate. Today on Front Burner we’re talking to longtime Washington correspondent Paul Hunter about what that investigation hopes to accomplish and to take the pulse of American democracy one year later.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. One year ago tomorrow, an angry mob stormed the U.S. Capitol. Let's go down!

Go, go, go! Watch out, watch out! Go, go, go! On January 6th, after months of debate and vote recounts, both houses of Congress got together to finally make Joe Biden's election win official. But before it got underway, Donald Trump was outside at a podium in front of loyal supporters. We're going to walk down to the Capitol. And we're going to cheer on our brave senators and congressmen and women.

And we're probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them. Because you'll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong. In droves, they marched to the Capitol and soon breached the building. Everybody stay down! Get down! A protester is sitting there in the well of the U.S. Senate. John, who would have ever believed we would see anything like this? At least four people died as a direct result of the violence.

Dozens were injured, and since then, four police officers who were there have died by suicide. In the days and months that followed, the events of January 6 have been debated, disputed, and broadly characterized as a real and symbolic threat to American democracy. So to get to the bottom of it all, a select committee was put together by Congress, made up of seven Democrats and two Republicans. Today on FrontBurner, we're talking to friend of the pod and longtime Washington correspondent Paul Hunter about what the investigation hopes to accomplish and to take the pulse of American democracy one year later.

Hi, Paul. Thank you so much for joining us, as always. Hey, Jamie. Always a pleasure and Happy New Year. Thank you very much. A very Happy New Year to you, too. So I want to start with this committee that has hailed this as a bipartisan effort by the U.S. Congress to investigate January 6th, even though it's made up of more Democrats than Republicans. And what are they doing exactly? What's their goal? We saw patriotism on display in the House when it passed the legislation to establish a select committee to investigate the January 6th attack on the Capitol. It's been our hope. Yeah, well, first off, it's probably worth unpacking

that bipartisan bit. Technically, it is. There are two Republicans on it. But from the perspective of Donald Trump loyalists, the two Republicans are full on turncoats, right? Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger both voted to impeach Trump, both joined the committee to investigate Trump. And as a result, both have been made into pariahs within a giant faction of the Republican Party. Kinsey won't run for office again. Cheney's had her influence cut dramatically, all just for being part of this committee. So, yes, bipartisan. And that's important because whatever comes of the investigation, no one will be able to say that it was without Republican input. But certainly, you know, the Trump crowd in Washington and in points beyond doesn't see it that way. The goal of the committee is to do a deep dive into, you know, what went into the January 6th assault, what and or who was involved on that day and in the lead up to it.

rules or laws that would prevent such a thing from ever happening again. The why, the how, the who behind the scenes. Let's remember, this was an attempt to circumvent the Constitution of the United States. It's serious stuff for a serious moment in U.S. history. And this is happening in parallel with the investigation that the FBI has been carrying out, right? They've arrested a lot of people that were involved that day and who were spotted on camera, right? Yeah, I mean, that's a whole separate arm

of the aftermath of January 6th. You know, in the days and weeks after the rioting a year ago, you'd walk home from work, or I'd walk home from work in Washington, and every bus stop had these giant, you know, wanted posters showing video screenshots of rioters that were taken from the security cameras on Capitol Hill that day. Like lots of them. Have you seen this man? And if so,

call the police kind of thing. Authorities are targeting like about 2000 rioters as it stands, more than 700 people face charges, 150 or so have pleaded guilty, mostly to low level crimes and stuff. But, but some of them have ended up with serious prison sentences. I mean, the longest so far is a little over five years. That was for assaulting a police officer, the so-called QAnon shaman. Yeah! Viking man, some call him. Yes, I remember him well.

Yeah, the guy with the horns and the fur cape. Glad to see you guys. You guys are the patriots. Look at this guy. He's got covered in blood. God bless you. He got nearly three and a half years. What's interesting, too,

is the regret stated by many of the rioters after the fact that they effectively now believe they shouldn't have done that, that they, you know, acted on false information as if they suddenly realized

the election was not stolen and that they should not have rioted. But they did. Now they're in jail. They've paid a real price for that day. And so back to what the committee is focusing on and what they're trying to determine here. Let's talk about Trump for a second. So, of course, we all saw the speech that he made before the mob made their way towards

the Capitol. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. When it comes to Trump, what are they trying to determine here on the committee? Right. I mean, we know what he said on stage that day. We know what he'd been saying for the previous several weeks that the election was stolen. It was rampant fraud. Biden is illegitimate. And effectively, that people should be mad as hell about that. So we know all that. What the committee wants to know is what he said, what he did, what he was thinking behind the scenes in the lead up to that day, and as well, what he said, what he did or didn't do for the 187 minutes, just over three hours that the rioters were rampaging. Bits of information out there now suggest he basically did nothing other than watch

it all play out. The committee has firsthand testimony now that he was sitting in the dining room next to the Oval Office watching the attack on television as the assault on the Capitol occurred. It's hard to imagine a more significant, a more serious dereliction of duty than that. He did not step in. He did not act to stop the rioters with their Trump flags and their MAGA hats. He did. He did nothing. the riders with their Trump flags and their MAGA hats. He did nothing. I mean, the committee has evidently learned, even though his daughter Ivanka and advisor and son Don Jr. were pleading with him to act, Fox News hosts who have their influence on Trump were evidently in contact with him that day pleading the same thing, just do something. And he didn't. As Trump critics might put it, you know, Rome was burning. Trump wasn't even fiddling.

He was just watching and he ignored all who said he needed to step in and do something to stop what was being carried out in his name. You see that for hours. The president was pretty silent during that time. He issued a couple of tweets and then ultimately issuing some messages to urge them to go home or to scale. But you have to go home now. We have to have peace. We have to have law and order. We have to respect our great. Wouldn't you say the committee evidently learned? What do you mean by that? Well, we're hearing things in dribs and drabs from what is being

from the bits of evidence that they have had so far. And I say bits, but it's thousands of documents and hundreds of people testifying. You know, there's no end to the number of books that have been written about Trump's final days in office. And so you're getting sourced stories of what people are saying was going on behind the scenes. But the committee's work, in fairness, has been mostly behind closed doors to this point. It's going to move to the public stage shortly, is the expectation.

So I say evidently because we don't know exactly what the committee has learned so far, just that they're proceeding apace. They want to hear from anybody and everybody who is, was, is close to Donald Trump. Steve Bannon as well. Former Trump advisor Steve Bannon has been indicted by a grand jury and arrest warrant, we are told, will soon be... Mark Meadows, former chief of staff. This morning, the House is ramping up the pressure on former President Trump and his

allies over January 6th after voting to hold former Trump chief of staff Mark Meadows in contempt of Congress, referring him to the Justice Department. I mean, they are clearly trying to get at Trump at his like, what was he thinking? That great unanswerable question. People are resisting. We know that Steve Bannon and Mark Meadows have pushed back against subpoenas and they face potential penalties for that. The key question in all of it always comes back to Trump. Like, what role did he play? And, you know, if you can't get at Trump himself, that remains to be seen. They want to get his documents. He's pushed back against that. And that may end up in the Supreme Court. He's citing executive privilege. If they can't get at trump himself they want to get at the people as absolutely closest to his

thinking as possible it's not it's but it's you know we don't know exactly what they've got in their back pockets at this point um but that so-called you you know, ever elusive smoking gun, like the direct connection, connect those dots, draw a straight line to Donald Trump. We don't know if they've got it yet, but you know, that's what they're trying to get at. And that's why can we get anybody who might have evidence on Trump's role. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here.

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Would these people testify in public? Is there a plan to release the findings of this committee? The expectation is it'll go to public hearings, and I think we can presume that that will happen. The target for an eventual report, here's what we found, here's the evidence that we have, here's the smoking gun or not, is targeted for this summer. And that's important because if it drags on, and one of the reasons that people suggest that Donald Trump is pushing back on the release of some of his documents is to punt it further and further and further down the calendar. If their work can be pushed past the midterms and if, as everyone expects, the Republicans regain control of Capitol Hill at the midterms, Republicans would then control all the committees and they can simply say that's the the end of that. Full stop. And it goes nowhere. So they, you know, the clock's a ticking, right? They want to get their work done pronto so that

they can get their report finished and made public in time for the midterms, not least to potentially affect voters thinking going into the midterms, but as well, simply to get it done, because if they don't and they do lose control of Capitol Hill, it's all gone. So I want to kind of dig into that more with you now, because one of the big themes that came out of January 6th was that this was an assault on democracy in the U.S. in more than a symbolic way. And I want to explore the idea a bit both around January 6th and some of the other big things that are playing out right now. So for those at the Capitol and many, many more, Joe Biden was and

is an illegitimate president. But this notion of legitimacy, right, it was also leveled at Trump through the Democrats, like their relentless attempts to link his election win to Russian influence. And what impact do you think it has when large portions of the electorate, you both leaders, as illegitimate? It underlines the mess the US findsS. finds itself in right now. And no one really knows the way out of it. I mean, I think we've talked about this before, Jamie. There is no middle ground in the political conversation right now. There are no conversations about a way forward.

It is mistrust. It's name-calling. It's fury from both sides aimed at each other. Vast swaths of Americans have become hardened in their views that the other side is not just someone who sees the role of government differently, conservative versus liberal, you know, but rather that the other side is the enemy, right? I mean, is it any wonder that so many resorted to violence last January? Trump backers think Biden backers cheated to win.

Biden backers think Trump tried to cheat to win. Biden backers think Trump tried to cheat to win and will do it again. That's why Democrats want that smoking gun, right? They didn't really get it with the Russia investigation, which in turn just fueled Trump supporters view that it was a witch hunt. But the entire thing has been a witch hunt. And there is no collusion between certainly myself and my campaign, but I can always speak for myself and the Russians. Zero. I think it divides. Even though there was certainly reason to investigate. But without finding hard evidence against Trump regarding January 6th, it really risks simply reinforcing for Trump backers that this was all fake news, that Democrats are just out to get Trump.

And on and on and on the cycle goes. That's the real problem with the divide in America right now, that it's just nobody will believe the other side. People effectively hate the other side. I know it's a strong word, but it comes down to sort of black and white in the minds of many. And there's no way forward. That's the real challenge.

Where does this go from here? Nobody knows. Right. The idea that this could be yet another witch hunt. Is there an argument to be made for perhaps the Democrats dropping this investigation and trying to find the smoking gun? Because if it doesn't exist, then it just sort of fortifies the argument. It riles up his base. And what's the point?

Exactly. In fact, it is counterproductive to what Democrats want, isn't it? That's an interesting way to look at it. There is an argument that Democrats are having within themselves about whether or not even to talk about that stuff out on in the hustings, as it were, going toward the midterms. A kind of hard truth, in my view, is that people don't care, right? Regular people don't care. They see what happened on Capitol Hill last January as awful. But yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a bunch of rioters on Capitol Hill. It was terrible. We got to make sure it doesn't happen again. But really what matters to me is my job, is COVID, is are my kids going to be able to go to school? Like those kinds of so-called kitchen table things that that's all anybody cares about. People thought that Americans would be more upset about the complicated pullout of American troops from Afghanistan. They weren't

really because they got other things to worry about. I think when Americans look back at January 6th, that was a thing that happened, that the big media makes a lot of headlines out of and makes a lot of hay about, but I don't really care. And that's a problem for Democrats who want to campaign on that, who want to say Trump is bad, Trump led that assault, but nobody cares. And if nobody cares, then when Trump comes back and runs in 2024, as he almost certainly will, people won't be thinking about January 6th. They'll be saying, hey, what about that guy again? He was kind of liked his swagger, you know, you know, blah, blah, blah. Other things matter than that. And that's the risk

Democrats are taking. Not only do they not care, but that it might just fuel the idea that, yeah, they're just out to get Trump anyway. And, you know, when we talk about threats to American democracy, I also can't help but think that like possibly the largest threat in front of the Democrats seems to be this redistricting issue. So a redistricting frenzy is underway across the country. We are following the very latest developments in Texas where they're inching closer to approving new maps that could determine the partisan makeup of that state for the next decade. We're going to have more on that in just a moment. Essentially, the redrawing of electoral boundaries to favor one party, in this case, the Republicans. And so

when it comes to the upcoming midterms, then I guess subsequent elections, including the presidential one, what do critics fear could happen here? Jamie, I think that is actually the larger threat to the United States right now. And it's all going on in plain sight and will continue to, you know, unlike the case in Canada, in most parts of America, the redrawing of electoral district boundaries is done effectively on a partisan basis. Whichever party controls the state government signs off on new voting boundaries every 10 years. And typically, gerrymandering ensues, right? Tweaking those boundaries to favor what, you know, both parties do it, right? But right now, Republicans are doing it a lot. And that's a problem for Democrats. It effectively, it steals the election before the election, if you follow. But at the same time,

in those Republican-controlled states, they're not only gerrymandering, but they're tweaking laws that will make it more complicated for some Americans to vote, typically Democrat voters. They're also installing Trump loyalists into positions of power in state governments, which set the electoral rules in each state. And they're tweaking state laws that would enable voting results to be overturned as Trump wanted in 2020, right? This would be done legally, and it would be done at the whim of loyal to Trump legislators in states that could flip the next presidential election to Trump if he runs and if he's outvoted. He could win regardless. This is all happening now.

And the interesting thing about that further, if you ask me, is people aren't standing up and shouting about it. It's happening, and it'll be too late come the presidential campaign of 2024 to do anything about it, because all these rules will be in place, and you will not be able to challenge it if Trump gets outvoted again. And you say, well, wait a second. You can't just flip the results and then states will do it anyway, legally. Yeah. You hear experts talk about how this could be the path to America becoming an autocracy, the death of democracy in the U.S.

A hundred percent. It sounds like something out of a Hollywood, like a terribly bad Hollywood movie, but it's real. And I know the Democrats are trying to address this, but I can't imagine that people look at this political system with much confidence right now. When a member of the president's own party, Joe Manchin, for example, torpedoed this like objectively popular legislation he campaigned on. Right. Yeah. I mean, you know, in fairness, some of

these so-called moderate Democrats would say the reason Joe Biden got elected wasn't because of his agenda. It's because he wasn't Donald Trump. Right. And that a lot of Americans, this is this is a fact. I mean, this is real. A lot of a lot of Democrats even think Biden's big spending bills are an overreach. That's not what we wanted. We just wanted somebody who wasn't Trump. So slow down, even though a lot of the measures he wants in place are broadly popular. But yes, you know, you're right. You know, forgive the world for looking at America right now and collectively saying what on earth is going on there. And by the way, the disarray on the Democrat side and in American politics broadly has real consequences. Some would say there's a reason Vladimir Putin is choosing right now to stare hard at Ukraine. Right. The U.S. has got a lot of problems at home. Maybe goes the thinking goes Putin, maybe, that this is the time to test the U.S. on the world stage. It's complicated. It is scary. But at the root of it all is the disarray in American politics still, even though Trump is long gone from office. You know, Paul, I remember last year, after January 6th, you came onto the podcast, we talked about how Biden was pleading for this return to a pre-Trump era of American politics, and whether that world even exists anymore. And, you know, you were not very hopeful at the time

you talked about, well, what you talked about today, this massive, ferocious chasm in the country. And how do you feel when you're on? Do you feel like it's gotten worse? Do you feel like it's status quo? Yeah, that's how did it somewhere between those? I mean, it's both of those, right? I mean, because it was such a deep chasm a year ago, it is. It's both of those, right? I mean, because it was such a deep chasm a year ago. It is, I feel 100% the same. It is as deep a divide now as it was then. It is really messed up.

The Biden administration is extremely worried about the reemergence of Donald Trump. So in short, does President Biden think that his predecessor is acting normally or does he think he's a threat to democracy, which is what some people would say? You know, I have to say, I don't think we've held back on this front. I mean, President Trump's role in subverting our constitution, attempting to block the peaceful transfer of power and defending a mob that attacked our Capitol and law enforcement has been well documented. And it's something obviously the president spoke about in terms of that being one of the worst days in our democracy. He'll speak to the historical significance of January 6th, what it means for

the country one year later, the importance of the peaceful transfer of power, which obviously the prior administration and the prior president weren't a part of. But I think there's a larger message here to the country about who we are and who we need to be moving forward. He almost certainly will run again. Biden people will tell you that that represents an existential threat to America. They see preventing a President Trump 2.0 as the single most important thing they need to achieve.

But the divide in America is as real as ever. Those Trump 2024 flags are flying now at the homes of people who think all those rioters last January 6th were patriots, that they were being great Americans. The U.S., Jamie, is a tremendous country in so many ways. But politically, it is in this terribly precarious place right now with both sides dug in and no one knows the way out. Great, great time. Great time to be their neighbor. So thanks so much, Paul. This is this was really fascinating and great as usual. Thank you so much. I wish I had happier things to say about the state of politics there, Jamie,

but it's a problem right now, and we'll see where this goes. All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson, and we'll talk to you again tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.