Front Burner - The WNBA enters its Caitlin Clark era

Episode Date: May 15, 2024

The Women's National Basketball Association has been around for 30 years now, but has long struggled to stand out in an increasingly busy marketplace. The league has also struggled with viewership, and pay equity. But they may have finally found a star transformative enough to break out of the pack. Her name? Caitlin Clark. Just before Clark's professional debut with the Indiana Fever, CBC's Shireen Ahmed joins the show to discuss the WNBA's talismanic star, what some are referring to as a 'golden age' for women's basketball, and Canada's role in it all.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. Once upon a time, in the not-so-distant past, think like the 70s, early 80s, the NBA was actually a league in crisis. White audiences felt uneasy about a game that was dominated by Black athletes.

Games were rarely broadcast live, and audiences were not paying to watch games. The league's business was bottoming out, and collapse felt not unlikely. That is, until the introduction of Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. The star power of these two athletes may have single-handedly saved professional basketball. And those two guys, you know, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, saved the NBA, you know, really saved the NBA from really going under because at that particular point, it was only maybe four teams that were making money, you know, out of the, I think they might have been 22 or 24 teams in the league. Though it doesn't need saving, and the Women's Basketball Association, the WNBA, has been on a growth trajectory for some years now, the league has struggled with viewership and issues with pay. But the women's game may today be undergoing a

transformation that hit the men's game all those years ago. And her name is Kaitlyn Clark. Are they going to get the ball up in time. Clark for the win! Yes! Again, the 40-piece and locks off with the W. Kaitlyn Clark is a phenomenon and may go down as the greatest college basketball player in history. And after being drafted first overall, she's set to make her professional debut tonight. In the wake of all of this, the WNBA has also made the decision to expand the league,

with a franchise expected in Toronto by 2026. We're joined today by the CBC's Shireen Ahmed to talk about Caitlin Clark, what some are calling a golden age in women's basketball and Canada's role in it all. Shereen, hey, it is so great to have you on FrontBurner. Hi, Jamie. Thanks for having me. Always a pleasure. So before we get into Caitlin Clark, let's talk about a story that you actually broke last week. It's an exciting time for women's basketball, in part because the league is expanding with a team coming to Toronto in 2026, right? And so tell me about that. Tell me about that.

Yeah, so what we know, and it was a huge story to come out. I was really happy that me and the CBC sports team were able to, you know, break it in a way that was timely. And I think that it wasn't just the reporting of it, Jamie. It was the way that it was received made me really happy was the excitement. I had people calling me in tears. I had people calling me asking for season tickets. I'm like, look, the story broke an hour ago. There's like, but that excitement, because, you know, very often there's a rhetoric around women's sports and there's negative comments. It was really, really heartening to just have so many people, all demographics, all groups, like everybody,

just so thrilled. So what we do know is it's the 14th expansion team in the WNBA. They'll be playing at the Coca-Cola Coliseum at Exhibition Place, and they start in the 2026 season, as you mentioned. of how this deal came to be. I know the ownership group behind the WNBA bid is led by Larry Tenenbaum, who has a minority stake in Maple Leaf Sports Entertainment, which owns the Raptors and Leafs. And tell me a bit about how Tenenbaum is essentially stepping out on his own to do this. For sure. So the temperature was taken in Toronto last year, just for some background.

There was a preseason game, a WNBA game at the Scotiabank Arena in Toronto. What's up, Canada? I think it's time we show them that Canada's not just a hockey country, that we're passionate about basketball too. There's nothing like really having that experience, that real WNBA experience. The little girls were able to see it so they can really be it. Shout out to Canada and the WNBA figuring it out and making it work because this was an amazing experience. That game sold out in less than 30 minutes. And that was sort of, you know, the WNBA commissioner, Kathy Engelbert, came and said that Toronto was in the running for one of the municipalities etc for expansion the other places were Portland who later on did get a bid but they

dropped it and it was you know sort of everyone moved on so there was a lot of emotions at the time in Toronto because a lot of people close to the scene and women's sports people were like if the time is right anyways the reason Toronto didn't move forward with that bid was because Larry Tannenbaum is a minority owner of the MLSC, but the other board members kiboshed it. So it didn't go through, essentially, and everyone was left going, how did that happen? So Larry Tannenbaum went with his own holdings group, Kilmer Sports Venture, and they went forward with it to what we now know and can confirm is a successful bid for Toronto. So let's move on to Caitlin Clark now. So I think it's fair to say that she may be the most coveted star in the history of women's basketball. Caitlin Clark is the GOAT.

Just watching her passion in the game, the way she just plays with her team. I like when she just shoots from half court. It's like she's crazy. A lot of people are excited about her being drafted into the league, like really, really excited. And just tell me a little bit about what makes her so special, such a phenom. Well, like, first of all, she sinks threes like we've never seen, like just one after one after one. Like she sinks three pointers in a way that we've seen like Steph Curry do. Yeah, it's crazy watching her.

It's nuts. And just she makes it look effortless. And, you know, these things go viral. But the reality is, she herself is what we call a generational talent. She is to women's college basketball, like what we think Hillary Knight is to hockey in the United States, like that good. And the thing is, is that I'm excited about her. But the problem that I'm having is that she's, there's a bit of an overshadowing of the others in the draft class,

which are, and all those people are amazing players. Like I've never seen, and all my years covering sports and women's sports in particular, a draft class like this, like you've got Cameron Brink, you've got Aaliyah Edwards from Kingston, Ontario,

the only Canadian in the top 10 of the draft class. And it's phenomenal. Elisa Pilly is in there. Like it's just, it's an Angel Reese who I think is my favorite personally. But the thing is, Caitlin Clarke is, there's no doubt. She, people fear her play. People gravitate towards her because of her tenacity. She is unafraid.

She's a bit, you know, everyone likes a villain story in sports. So her and the sort of feud between Angel Reeves. At what point were you waiting to pull out this? Man, Caitlin Clark is a hell of a player. Incredible. Player for sure. But I don't take disrespect lightly. And she disrespected Alexis and my girls

South Carolina they still my SEC girls too but y'all not gonna disrespect them either so I had I wanted to pick her pocket but I had a moment at the end of the game and that was just I was in my bag I was in my moment yeah you know everyone kind of likes that for competition and the players themselves respect each other but they're very you know they battle it out on the court which is which is true because they're competitors there's something about her that just appeals to people and i mean let's be frank jamie middle america and midwest like her because she's a white player and she's the girl next door she's born and raised in iowa she played for iowa her roots are there like the whole state in that entire region is rooting for her. There's no doubt that she's probably one of the most exciting players in any sport to watch right now.

So you mentioned some of these other players that are really also incredible in their own right. I was also thinking of Paige Beckers, Juju Watkins, right? And just the level of interest right now. I just want to put that into perspective. So this year, the women's NCAA tournament viewership smashed numbers from the men's game. The final was watched by more people than the Grammys. And actually, even the NBA finals, which is crazy. I didn't, these are incredible numbers, right? And do you think, maybe just to try and summarize what you were just saying there, it's like a combination of things happening, right? So we see this uniquely generational talent in Caitlin Clark, but also we have all these other incredible players and it is also happening at a time where the league itself was growing. where the league itself was growing. Yeah, definitely.

I think you mentioned Pitchbackers, Juju Watkins. Like there's still growth there. Those two are still playing at college. But we can even see ahead to what's coming next. We see the type of talent that's happening. We see the growth and the expansion and the numbers. I actually forgot that men were playing college ball this season because I was so tuned in to the women's tournament. And I'm a sports journalist. Like even my boys, they were like, did you see this? And I said to my 18-year-old, I was like, do your teammates know who Caitlin Clark is? And

he's like, mama, please. Everybody knows who she is. So we're seeing generationally, we're seeing a shift and we're almost there. But now also because of social media, people have access to see what's happening, the growth, you know, the girls breaking ankles on courts, everyone walking around in a Caitlin Clark jersey. I mean, her merch is completely sold out. The tickets to the game tonight are sold out. You know, Fever's first game, like this is Indiana Fever is, I can't remember them selling out like this and as quickly. So it's important and it is good to know that like there is fanfare around those markets, around those different teams. Like you've also got Camila Cardoso, a Brazilian player who is really drawing attention to her own story. And there's a growth as well, like globally for basketball. And I think we're

seeing that reflected right now in women's sports as well. So you mentioned the Indiana fever and kind of the fervor around that. King and Clark's teammates have been clear about the impact they expect her to have on the team and the league. How much change have you felt in your time in the pros in just two years? A big change. You know, we used to play in a barn. Like we used to play in a barn. Like, we used to play in a barn with six fans. Now we're going to be playing in sold-out arenas, and people are moving arenas to watch us play. Like, it's just going to be huge for us this year. You don't miss the barn? I don't

miss the barn. I know this kind of pulls on what you were just saying, but I think, is it fair to say that we have not seen a phenomenon like this before? I haven't. I mean, I could be wrong about this, but in women's sports, like I can't remember the last time. I mean, the last time I saw somebody have this kind of effect on a team, and I hesitate to say this, but the only thing comparable is Messi going to enter Miami FC to play soccer in Miami when he left Europe. The amount of craze. Like, Kaitlyn Clark is being, she's a full-time bodyguard. She can't walk to an airport without people recognizing her. Very recently, the WNBA announced that they will be offering charter flights and, you know, permitting charter flights for those teams because for safety, but this is something that Brittany Griner, a player for Phoenix Mercury should have had because she, for different

reasons, gets harassed in airports. You know, because she's a very big, recognizable Black queer woman. So, like, at the same time as I'm happy for all these changes, I think it's important to recognize that they can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people, and I have some startling numbers to share with you.

Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Cops. I also saw earlier this month a male reporter

make kind of like a really creepy remark to Clark during a press conference too. You like that? I like that you're here. I like that you're here. I do that at my family after every game, so it's pretty cool. Start doing it to me and we'll get along just fine. So as a woman that works in sports media, I guess, has any of this surprised you? No, I think that I'm going to be on the side of optimism while remaining critical of the

systems that surround it. To say that women's sport is devoid of homophobia or racism or inequality is wrong. But at the same time, I want to be able to hold those moments of happiness. So there's so many things that are so good. As I see the progress here, would I like the salaries for the, you know, WNBA players to be larger? Of course. So you mentioned that pay disparity and Caitlin Clark's salary. The idea that she would make $76,000 this year, that is compared to the first overall pick in the NBA draft who signed a $55 million contract, about $12 million per year. So, I mean, that's an enormous disparity. What do you make of that disparity?

So I think one of the things that's really important to understand is while the WNBA is not starting, it's not a new league, but with the investments start coming in and the more investments start coming in and the advertisers' money and the collaborations and the corporate partnerships start coming and we'll see that grow. I do think it's important to remember and understand that the players in the WNBA do have a collective bargaining agreement. So there's a lot of intentionality about that. So like some players who will make more money overall, it'll be from endorsements or other, but just to make sure that there's not too much of a disparity within the salaries of the players themselves in the league. And they have access to health care and they have access to family leave. Many of them are parents. So there's these kinds of things. So when I think we just look at the base number and the salaries, it's also important to

understand the context of that. And of course, I would like to see it does make me sort of feel not great when I see that Caitlin Clark is making like less than much less than like a bench warmer for a team that you know didn't get that ended last in the NBA but again the women's game is the women's game and if we compare it too often to the men it's a completely different space do I think that at one point in the not too far future women will be having the opportunity to make a lot more. These players will be able to be making a lot more.

Yes, actually, I'm quite half glass full about that. But we have these expectations of women's sport that it'll just miraculously overnight. And I think it's important to remind people that the NBA lost money before they started to turn a profit. So we need to be giving women's sports and the growth a little bit of grace here too. On that note, NBA champ Michael Porter Jr. talked about this disparity in pay in an interview that he's taking quite a bit of heat for. And I just, I want to get your reaction to some of his comments. So as much as I understand females wanting the same treatment as men basketball players, it's a different sport.

People, they're not packing out the arenas. Obviously their TV deals aren't the same. So as much as I advocate for women and kind of the equality of the respect of their craft and all those things, I mean, you can't pay them the same thing, you know, but I do feel like there should be a little way to make a little bit more money for them

because they are very talented. It's not as exciting. No, it's not as exciting. It's not as exciting basketball. Yeah, you're not. So what do you make of that? It's not as exciting. What do you make of that?

I mean, if you want riveting basketball, high levels of athleticism, drama, storylines, then you watch the women's college tournament. I mean, that's what I said in the beginning of this conversation. Like, I think I'm hearing men who are sounding really precious about what space they're in. And it's unfortunate. I mean, there's room to grow. I do agree that women's basketball is a different game. I think that's important to note. No one's arguing. But whenever, you know, women in sport argue for more money, they're not saying give us the same as men. No one is actually making that argument. If you listen to the conversation being had, they're saying we would like opportunities to make more money. And he's wrong about selling out the stadiums. That's

absolutely incorrect information. The viewership numbers. I would like to sit down with, you know, somebody who has proper data, proper, the scholarship, the reporting on this, the reports themselves, and sit down, you know, my panel against this panel, and say, like, you know, pound for pound, your information is incorrect.

And what's happening here is this is the type of thing that in the sexism that we see they're in in the space still is that, oh, you know, they're really good, but they're not us. Like, brah, no one's trying to be you. They're trying to be them. They just would like to be paid equitably. And the data is there. They're not paid for what they're worth as people are investing left, right and center. The advertising deals for the NCAA tournament sold out so fast. There was huge interest in investing

in this product that is women's sports. So these guys sound fairly outdated. They sound like they're 20 years old. Like this is a kind, but this is again what you see in the commentary in the online, you'll see the comment section. This is the type of rhetoric that's being spewed in. I feel almost feel bad for them because they sound so completely out of touch with reality.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they're essentially what the women are asking for is essentially just a more equitable percentage of the pie. Right. Like it does seem like a pretty logical and fair, fair argument. And frustrating to ask you about is that college athletes for many years, they weren't able to earn money from their likeness. They couldn't get a deal with Nike or whatever, but that has changed.

And some college athletes are now making millions of dollars. They actually, interestingly, stand to make more money off of likeness deals in college than they would as professionals. And so do you think this has complicated things for the WNBA at all? Like Caitlin Clark, for example, stayed her full four years to play, right, in college? Well, absolutely. But then you see people like you said, Juju Watkins and Pidge Becker's who opt to stay in college, and they could have declared for the draft. But what that that is good, and I just want to make this clarification for the NIL, which is name, image and likeness, is that that applies only to American athletes. So some people make a whole lot of money and others won't any at

all, get any at all. So will it impact the WNBA? No, not as a huge sort of like tidal wave, because not everybody is making that money and may have more opportunities in the W too. Because don't forget, these are jobs for these young women. They're jobs. This is their work. So they want an opportunity to work because if they're not getting compensated the way they ought to be in college, then there's a choice or to play overseas professionally, which a lot of them do do as well. It's really interesting, this whole business side of it and the pay side of it. this whole business side of it and the pay side of it. Shereen, before we go, can you just take me into the future a little bit? Like with an expansion franchise in Toronto on the horizon,

like take me five or ten years down the road. Where do you think the women's game will be then? So let's start with the women's game in Canada. I'm really hoping that there is a couple more expansion teams in Canada. I'm really hoping and I want to manifest that and put it out there. I would love that. I would like to see me frantically trying to catch a flight to Edmonton or somewhere else and maybe to try to cover it. I also want to see investment and yes, I would like to see the starting base salary of the players in the WNBA

be in the hundreds of thousands. I would love that. I would like to see more owners who are women. I would like to see collectives of people who are owners. I would like to see, I would really like to see more women in front offices and not just as officials or, you know, but really involved in every level. I'd like to see. The one thing that excites me about this too, Jamie, is the possibility of more women in media roles. Because as we know, sports journalism, I teach it at Toronto Metropolitan University, is truly dominated by men.

But having, and I really want young men to be out there reporting on women's sports too, which I've definitely seen in hockey and basketball. But the reality is, is that it still feels like it's not for us. And that's not accurate. And, you know, trying to change that. So in addition to seeing the growth of the sport, I would like to see a shifting within the ecosystem. Yeah. I love that. So many more role models for young women to look up to. And then packed arenas everywhere, right? Absolutely. And I mean, I love the role model thing. And I love that these athletes draw from each other.

You know, Kayla Alexander, who plays for the Canadian Women's Olympic team. And there is a tradition in Canada for basketball already. And I also would remind people to and gently nudge them to learn that history. Tammy Sutton Brown, you know, was drafted in early 2000s. So the WNBA is a legend. Like, let's remember that. And as we make more history, let's not forget the one that Canada already has in women's basketball. All right. Shereen Ahmed, always a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. All right, that is allbc.ca slash podcasts.