Front Burner - The woman who hid Edward Snowden

Episode Date: March 28, 2019

When Edward Snowden showed up at her door, Vanessa Rodel had no idea who he was. Then she saw his face of the front page of the newspaper. Rodel and her daughter have just arrived in Canada as privately sponsored refugees. Vanessa tells the story of how she hid Snowden, who at the time was the subject of an international manhunt for leaking top secret information that exposed a global US spy program. She also talks about the price she paid to help him.

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I feel terrorized. I'm Justin Lane. This season on Uncover. If we see this is happening, how can you not see this? They suspected a serial killer. And they were right. Police arrested 66-year-old Bruce MacArthur. But this wasn't the first time the village was targeted. You don't start killing at 66. You'd start killing when you're in your late teens or early 20s.

Uncover. The Village. Coming April 2nd. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. Imagine this. You're at home, taking care of your daughter. Which is hard, because you're a single mom and legally you're not allowed to work. And then one day, your lawyer shows up and asks for a small favor. To shelter the most wanted man in the world.

Edward Snowden. He's wanted in the U.S. for leaking American intelligence information to the media. He's an American former CIA employee and computer technician. Whistleblower to some, traitor to others. And when you make that decision, you really don't even know just how wanted that man is. Now imagine, on top of all of this, you're a destitute asylum seeker just trying to survive. Today on FrontBurner, I'm speaking to a woman who took in Edward Snowden and the lawyer who asked her to. Her name is Vanessa Rodell,

and she's one of the so-called Snowden Angels. She and her seven-year-old daughter were just welcomed into Canada as refugees. Their story is this incredible mix of international espionage, personal sacrifice, and consequence. That's today on FrontBurner. Vanessa, welcome to Canada. Hello, welcome to Canada. Thank you. So good to have you here. Thank you. I'm so excited now I'm here in Canada. Thank you. So good to have you here. Thank you. I'm so excited now I'm here in Canada. I

can't explain how I'm happy right now. And I'm so glad that the people here are so friendly. So this is Vanessa. I met her earlier this week in Toronto. And she was a long way both physically and emotionally from the place she was when she first met Edward Snowden, living in the Kowloon district in Hong Kong with her daughter Kiana in 2013. Can you take me back a couple of years to 2013? Can you tell me about the first time that you met Edward Snowden? Did he just show up at your door? Yeah, he came with my lawyer, Mr. tebow and jonathan man and at the time

i don't know who he was and then my lawyer told me that he need to play to stay so i say okay i just let come to my house and i have very small home um just very very tiny one room and living room with the kitchen everything and toilet and bathroom together so it's really small and then that night uh it's already closed the shop because it's really late so i just bought him the mcdonald's and one set of McMuffin and French fries. You brought him a McMuffin and French fries? Yeah, ice lemon tea. And where did he sleep? I gave him a bed.

So Snowden shows up with his lawyer, Robert Thiebaud. He's a Montreal guy living in Hong Kong and working for undocumented people there. And Thiebaud, he's Vanessa's lawyer too. She trusts him. So after eating his McDonald's, Snowden asks for one more thing. Before he go to bed, he told me he wants English newspaper. I said, okay. So in the morning, I get English newspaper for him.

And I saw his photo in the front page. Oh, wow. And I said, oh, wow. And I said, oh, wow. And I said, I'm shocked. And I said, it's him. And I said, I cannot believe that the guy, the most wanted man in the world in my house. So I'm just trying to go back home. What were you thinking at this time?

Were you thinking, you know, I need to get this man out of my house? No, I'm thinking that we need to protect him. We need to keep quiet. So here's Vanessa in a very tough situation herself, even before her new house guest arrives. And she's realizing that a former CIA employee on the run for leaking highly classified information from the National Security Agency in the U.S.,

information that revealed a global surveillance program, is sitting in her tiny apartment, still digesting an Egg McMuffin. And incredibly, her first thought isn't, get this guy out of here. It's keep quiet. He needs help. And that time, you can see everywhere in Hong Kong. You can see the TV, Chinese newspaper. You can see him everywhere.

And we talk about him. But I'm just really quiet because he's in my house. So I just want to protect him. I don't want something bad happen to him when he will stay in my house. So I just want to protect him. I don't want something wrong to happen to him when he will stay in my house. So I just help him. Were you ever worried

about what could happen to you and Kiana having him in your house? I'm not nothing to worry about. I mean to say, I'm just listening to advice my lawyer, Mr. Robert Thibault. You know, do not tell to anyone, don't ask anyone to visit your house. That's it. I'm just following instruction to me. I mean advice to me. So it's nothing happened to me. And exactly how Edward

Snowden's life intersected with Vanessa Rodel's is explained by the lawyer they happen to both share. Robert Thiebaud had been working to get Snowden out of the Mirror Hotel in Hong Kong. This is where he'd been doing those now-famous interviews, the ones with journalists Glenn Greenwald and Laura Poitras. Talk a little bit about how the American surveillance state actually functions. Does it target the actions of Americans? Does it target the actions of Americans? NSA and the intelligence community in general is focused on getting intelligence wherever it can, by any means possible. They broke the story and set off an international manhunt for Snowden.

Here's lawyer Robert Thibault. So on June 10th, very early in the morning, like six in the morning, I received a call. I was, you know, basically it was like, okay, Ed's in trouble. And I didn't want anybody to gain access to him before, you know, myself as a lawyer. So that's how I got involved. After you received this call from him, what happens? What do you do? Literally, I almost ran out of the house.

And then it was a matter of removing him from the Mira Hotel, without being followed by the media or any government agents. Second was to get him to the UNHCR. It had to be immediate because I had calculated that at some point the media would figure out he would go to the UNHCR. He had to physically go in and raise his hand to say, look, I'm Ed Snowden, I'm here, I want to raise a refugee claim based on political opinion, because that would put restrictions on Hong Kong from removing him until his refugee claim was decided. If he didn't do that, he'd run the risk of Hong Kong grabbing him and working with the U.S. government and extraordinarily renditioning him.

So the priority was out of the Mirror Hotel, second, UNHCR to raise his claim. So we did that. And then after that, the advice was given to Ed that we really need to put you underground. Okay. You can't go to another hotel. There's going to be cameras there. They're going to want a credit card. I mean, people are going to find out who you are. And if the cameras find you, then the authorities can find you. That's the idea here. And so what do you decide to do with it? Well, the hotels, there are a few hotels that the media were converging on and there was media from around the world flying in and it was a storm. There was this storm descending on Hong Kong and we had no time. It's not like Ed contacted me a week earlier when he was in his hotel at the Mira doing daily interviews with Glenn and Laura.

It was, we have minutes. So at that point, I thought, wait a second, Ed's a protection claimant. He's a refugee claimant, just like my other clients. And the refugee or asylum seeking community in Hong Kong, they're so marginalized socially, and they're so heavily discriminated against institutionally by the government, that they're the equivalent of the untouchables in that community. Nobody looks at them. The second thing is this community, they have their own support structure in the social group of asylum seekers, and they help each other. Newly arrived asylum seekers would come in and they'd say, stay with us a few days, here's some food, calm down, we'll explain to you the procedures here. And so I realized Ed would be best suited to stay in that social group within that community. He'd be safe because nobody would

be looking for him there. And he'd be very safe because these are people who have an enormous propensity to protect others who are vulnerable. And I did this by identifying clients also who lived in these old dilapidated buildings where there was no cameras, no elevators, and also placing them in the middle of the city, in the middle of the population. Because nobody would expect to see that Ed would be staying, you know, center of Kowloon. The situation Snowden was in is very well known by now. But what isn't as well known is just how much Vanessa risked to help him. But what isn't as well known is just how much Vanessa risked to help him.

She had come from the Philippines to Hong Kong, where claiming refugee status is nearly impossible. Asylum seekers in Hong Kong, they live in sort of a shadow society. For example, they're not allowed to work legally, and they live largely off meager government assistance with little access to services. Vanessa had fled her home country, where she said she'd been kidnapped and raped. And she lived in fear of being sent back, especially when she had to make a visit to a detention center to sign immigration papers. So when you get in, there's no way you to go out, because you're already there.

So when you get in to sign, I'm just, every time I always call to my lawyer that, any decision yet because I don't want to be detained I don't want me and my daughter separated I don't want to send back to the Philippines you know that I don't want me and my daughter shoot there and put my life in the recent Philippines so I don't want everything this happened to me and my daughter she's so innocent and she deserved a better life not same the same like me, what happened

to me before. Would you be willing to tell me a little bit more about why you left the Philippines and why you're scared to go back? Yeah, I was raped and kidnapped but I don't want to say the details because I'm getting really emotional. I'm so sorry. Yeah. And you're worried, not just for yourself, but also Kiana. Yeah, I'm so worried about her so much. So after about two weeks, Snowden left. He went to Russia, he got asylum, and that's where he lives today. But he didn't take all his troubles with him. In 2016, the Oliver Stone film Snowden was released. The NSA is really tracking every cell phone in the world. Most Americans don't want freedom,

they want security. Except people, they don't even know they've made that bargain. They don't want freedom. They want security. Except people, they don't even know they've made that bargain. When the movies came out, everything has changed. It was this ripped-from-the-headlines telling of Snowden's story, including his time in Hong Kong. And it was the first time people became aware of Vanessa and others who helped Snowden. So, as they do, reporters came knocking on her door. So I'm so scared at the time. They're so aggressive. So I'm not safe at the time.

And it didn't stop there. Her case was targeted by the Hong Kong authorities. The ISS, International Social Service, they gave me my basic needs, my rent, my allowance. This is an organization in Hong Kong. From the government The government agency that gives people seeking asylum food and a little bit of money, right? Yes, yes They refused my, I mean they stopped my assistance

My rent, my food, my allowance Okay, so after the movie came out The Hong Kong government took away the small amount of money, the assistance that they were giving you, and the small amount of food that they were giving you, and you weren't allowed to work. And so the organization here in Canada stepped in and helped you financially a little bit? Listening to Vanessa, I couldn't stop thinking about the position she'd been put in, particularly in the last three years when she was at this real risk of being deported back to the Philippines. Her daughter Kiana was born in Hong Kong, but she was considered stateless.

These two were in such a precarious situation. And it wasn't just Vanessa who had been put at risk. There were five others who also sheltered Snowden in Hong Kong and also put themselves at risk. Here's Thibaut again. We talked at the beginning of our conversation about how precarious these people's situations are. How the Hong Kong government can take away their rights at any minute and that there's real fears that they could be deported back to where they came from where there's real fears that they could be deported back to where they came from, where there are real dangers.

And did you think about what position this might put them in, asking them to take, at the time, the most wanted man in the world? Yeah, of course. Of course. You know, they're my clients. And, you know, from a legal ethical standpoint, the priority is to act in their best interests and never, ever do harm to them. The second thing is I was their lawyer and they were both, you know, these different families. They're all on the verge of being deported a year earlier, a year and a half earlier. on the verge of being deported a year earlier, a year and a half earlier. When things happen to you, it's enlightenment. They understand what suffering is, what trauma is. They understand what it is like to be in danger. So when they met Ed, it was very simple. They saw that he was in the same position they had been when they were fleeing for their lives. And they exercised

great compassion, empathy, and humanity in stepping forward to help him. And the one thing I want to stress here is they acted ethically, incredibly ethically. They made decisions of conscience that they would invite him into their homes because they knew he was in need. And they made this extraordinary ethical decision to help them. Did you ever think that maybe they were doing it because they felt a was in need. And they made this extraordinary ethical decision to help them.

Did you ever think that maybe they were doing it because they felt a debt to you? I think definitely they, you know, they trust me. They've always trusted me. And they felt indebted to me. But again, I was there with my instructing solicitor. And, you know, we explained very clearly that, look, you don't have to do this if you're not comfortable. Nobody's going to be upset. And, you know, if you change your mind, let us know. Secondly, and Ed had said this, if anybody comes into the flat, whether, you know, you open the door for them or they kick the door in, just let them have access to Ed. Don't interfere. We don't want anybody being hurt. Thankfully for Vanessa, it never came to that. And today, well, she's here, settling into her new home in Montreal,

with Edward Stodin thanking her in a television interview. It's incredible, I have to tell you. I was very skeptical that this could happen. And Vanessa and her daughter Kiana have been fighting for so long. They've been away from their home, I think, for over 13 years. Now, Kiana has grown up her entire life in exile without any sort of stability, without any certainty, having no idea how these things are going to happen. And just as the years have passed, life has gotten harder and harder, and they've faced more and more difficulty from the Hong Kong government. And it's so incredible

to me that they have been punished not only for just being individuals who want to live ordinarily, safely, happily, right, in their lives. They had to leave once. But then they're in Hong Kong. And the government pressures them again simply because they helped someone who is telling the truth, right? And for them to finally, finally have some safety, you know, a future, I can't describe the feeling. I'm so grateful. Vanessa, can I ask you,

you know, if you had to do this all over again, if you could go back to that night that Edward Snowden showed up at your door, knowing what's happened since, knowing that the Hong Kong government targeted your case and took away the small amount of resources that they gave you, how difficult it made your life for a period of time. Would you do it again? Yes. I don't have any regrets to help Eric Snowden. For me, he's a hero. He did the right thing. And I'm so proud of him. So I mentioned before a few times that it wasn't just Vanessa who helped Edward Snowden hide right under the noses of Hong Kong authorities. Robert Thiebaud's other clients also sheltered Snowden.

One couple with two young children and another man, old Sri Lankan nationals, all asylum claimants. The Hong Kong government has targeted their cases as well, and Thibault and others are calling on the Canadian government to expedite their asylum claims too. Canada needs to step forward. Mr. Trudeau and the government of Canada have done the right thing for Vanessa and her daughter. But really, what should have been done is all the families should have been brought into Canada at one time. So I am asking the Canadian government to recognize the dire situation my clients are in in Hong Kong. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner.

For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog. She names it Gay Girl in Damascus. Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger. The object of the email was, please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone. Available now.