Front Burner - The World Cup champions tackle equal pay

Episode Date: July 12, 2019

After their record-setting fourth World Cup win, the U.S. women's soccer team has found themselves at the centre of an ongoing debate about pay equity in sport. The team has been followed by a chorus of "equal pay" from the pitch to their celebration parade in New York City. These calls for equal pay have been heightened by the fact that the team generates more revenue than their male counterparts — selling more jerseys, tickets and signing more sponsorship deals. So how does a pay difference of as much as $730,000 persist? On today's Front Burner, we talk to writer and podcast host Shireen Ahmed for answers.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. In the fall of 1998, an elderly woman known as the Cat Lady went missing. In the fall of 1998, an elderly woman known as the Cat Lady went missing. She had a very distinctive silhouette and very recognizable when you'd see her walking into town. A handkerchief on her hair, long overcoat, like somebody that lived on the street.

All police could find were her 30 cats shot dead. I always knew something had happened to her, to just vanish like that. Uncover the Cat Lady Case from CBC Podcasts is available now. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. Equal pay! Equal pay! Equal pay! I have to be honest, I don't watch a ton of World Cup soccer, but I've seen enough to know that it's not normal for a crowd to start chanting equal pay at the end of a tournament. That's exactly what happened last week, and again on Wednesday at the U.S. Women's Victory Parade. Equal pay! Equal pay! They've now won four World Cups, which is a record. what happened last week, and again on Wednesday at the U.S. Women's Victory Parade.

They've now won four World Cups, which is a record. And they get paid a fraction of what the U.S. men make, and that team isn't nearly as accomplished. Today, equal pay for women in soccer. And is this truly incredible team an outlier or a game-changing force that will help close the wage gap for women across sport. This is Frontburner. I'm joined today by Shireen Ahmed. She's a writer and co-host of the podcast Burn It All Down. Shireen, thank you so much for coming on our podcast today. Thanks for having me, Jamie.

So this year's Women's World Cup, it felt different. I believe that we will win! I believe that we will win! USA! USA! There were a lot more people paying attention. The numbers certainly reflect that. Do you think it was sort of

a breakthrough for the sport? I think the sport itself has been on the rise. Like, there's tremendous amount of attention from the players and clubs. And I wish I could say the federations were helping, but they're not. But I'm not surprised to see how the numbers are growing. I mean, what a lot of people don't remember or recognize is the first iterations of a World Cup not affiliated with FIFA were in 1970 and 1971.

And in there, in Mexico and in Italy, they had filled up stadiums of 100,000. So it's not as if that the sport and the women's game doesn't draw interest, but it's the fact that now media outlets and sports outlets are actually taking interest in showing them. Right, they're kind of catching up with the times.

They really are, because if we're going to just specifically talk about the women's game, it's absolutely unabashedly tons of interest in this. And there's no doubt that there is a call and a need for the women's game. That moment when that chant broke out, the equal pay chant, it was incredible. And can you set that scene for me? Well, it was really beautiful. I wasn't in Lyon. I had gone to France for the group stages.

But watching it live and having friends text me from the press box and having friends message from within the stadium, this idea that what was important to the players and what is fair and just was reverberating through that stadium. And it was sort of re-emphasizing what the players have been saying for a very long time, but to also have supporters as your allies, where sometimes supporters can be your biggest critics, it was so important because it's actually the stadium full. Sold out stadium full of dignitaries and, you know, politicians. So it was really important for that to be happening. And later, when President Macron and when Gianni Infantino,

the president of FIFA, were booed, that was even as important. And I also want to talk about one of the members of that team, Captain Megan Rapinoe. And she sort of emerged as this activist. She's taken on this incredible role. I feel like, honestly, we're part of this bigger movement, whether it's equal pay or equal rights or whatever it is. It just seems like this is kind of a turning point in history. And why do you think that that's happened?

Well, I think it's been a natural revolution if we look at who Megan Rapinoe is. She's not new to this. I mean, she was the first athlete, white athlete, to actually kneel in solidarity with former NFL player Colin Kaepernick. While some Americans look at the flag and know that it protects all of them, some Americans don't feel that way. And that's something that we need to address. So we, those of us that know her and have been following her for a long time, are aware of her beliefs. She's also a very vocal advocate

of the LGBTIQ community and has always been so. Before the Games, I made the choice to come out and say that I was gay. And I can't exactly put my finger on it, but I think it was the best decision I ever made. So like, you know, for years, I think that she is beginning to realize in the last little while how big her platform is. And she said it, she's talked about not going to the effing White House. We're not going to be invited. You're not going to be invited? I doubt it. And she has also acknowledged her platform to be used to better the world. And I think this is so key as a co-captain. Her responsibility, and very often, although Carly Lloyd is another captain,

they often defer the spokesperson role to Megan Rapinoe. And I think this is incredible because what she is saying is vital to the team. They're talking about marginalized communities. They're talking about people of color. They're talking about things that don't often get play in sports media circles. So essentially, the U.S. Women's National Team is forcing conversations to be held. This group is incredible. We took so much on our shoulders to be here today, to celebrate with you today.

And we did it with a smile. So do the same for us. Please. I ask you. That's interesting. I know that we're talking today about equal pay, but you're right. We should know that they're talking about a whole coast of issues here. Yeah. And equal pay is not the only one. Like if we look at, you know, in terms of respect, what's happening, they're talking about resources, they're talking about maternity leave and pay and medical assistance. They're talking about livable wages. So things like, you know, anti-oppression, like anti-racism, anti-misogyny, anti-homophobia, these things are all inextricably linked. And I really like how they are presenting this and actually recognizing the struggles of other people,

not only in the USA, but around the world, because let's not forget, the US women's national team are not the only team that struggle with pay equity. And let's talk about that, focusing again on this issue of pay equity. Where else have we seen this issue come up in sport? You know, Nigeria actually staged a sit-in because they weren't getting paid for tournaments that they had won. They were eight-time continental champions. I'm not happy at all because these people are trying for our country. Not today, not tomorrow, not tomorrow. Just count the number of clubs they are bringing.

They're not one or two. Just count the number of clubs they have been bringing. You had a team in Denmark strike, and the Danish team actually ended up missing a qualifier for the World Cup, which is one of the reasons they couldn't attend. At the centre of the Danish dispute is a wage increase. But the women also want equal conditions as the men when it comes to training grounds, meals and accommodation. You have Ada Hegerberg,

who is the most decorated women's soccer player in the world and she just turned 24 and she opted out of attending the World Cup with Norway she and her sister Andrine because of the fact that she didn't feel that Norway was doing enough or implementing enough strategy to promote the women's game and girls in youth development. I was maybe an object in a big piece where we weren't considered as professional as we should have been. Even though Norway did sign an unprecedented agreement that the men and women would be paid equally. The team's pay is set to almost double, going up to $750,000 a year.

What Ada Hegerberg was saying, it's not just about money. It's about all of it. It's about recognition. It's about respect. It's about things like not having medics on the team to assist them. It's about not having enough programs. So the girls don't even have equal opportunity. How are you supposed to grow?

And that's very much the point. Because let's not forget, Jamie, the head of these federations that allocate the monies are men. So this is also about prioritizing this sport and trying to cultivate players from a young age. Speaking of Ada Hegerberg, you know, of course, we should mention that she won the Ballon d'Or and was essentially asked to twerk on stage. That made international headlines, right? Est-ce que tu sais twerker? Non. Ok, alors on a choisi quelque chose d'autre.

It was appalling for those of us watching. This was the first Ballon d'Or awarded to a woman in history. And rightly so. I mean, she's very deserving. But what ended up happening was it also shone a light on how little that host, and it was Martin Slovig, who's, I believe, a DJ, how little he knew, like what presence he was standing in. And for him to ask such a reductive question, underline the fact that he didn't deserve

to be there. He didn't deserve to be there. He didn't deserve to be on the same stage as her. And she handled herself meticulously with a lot of dignity. But I think it was just a very telling thing. And to be very honest, those of us who follow women's football very religiously, it was unsurprising and that was the most disappointing. You mentioned moves for equal pay. Have any of these teams made any real headway?

I mean, that's a really important question and we can talk about resistance and mobilization, but what is the result of that? So sometimes you're met up with empty promises. But sometimes, you know, like former Canadian goalkeeper Aaron McLeod and Diana Matheson, who didn't make this World Cup squad because they're both injured, they negotiated a new contract, the CBA, collective bargaining agreement. And the team is actually unionized and they have, you know, opportunity to converse and to negotiate. And so I interviewed Erin McLeod a couple of months ago and she says it was the best contract that they have to date. The reality of women's soccer now is we are becoming more and more popular and there's

more eyes on us. And so I think it's important to be leaders. And I'm going to say it more so than the men. So I still don't, they do not make as much money as the men, which I find baffling, but they are working towards progress and they're working hard. I want to get back to the U.S. team and I want to get into some of the numbers here so that people can understand just how big this pay gap actually is. It's staggering, frankly. So FIFA offers $30 million in prize money for the Women's World Cup compared to $400 million for the men. compared to $400 million for the men. Their contracts stipulate that if they make it to the finals,

the men on the U.S. team can earn a maximum of $1 million compared to the women who earn a maximum of $260,000. Am I right there when I crunch those numbers? Yeah, I mean, the pay differences are staggering. So basically, if the U.S. men won, they would make a lot more money. And it's not that the U.S. men have a base salary like the women do. The women negotiated to have a base salary of $100,000. But the thing is, the bonus opportunities for the men are so much more. So that money ends up winning.

So if you look at how much the women have accomplished and what they're not getting via the men, it's profound. Also, I think we need to mention because sometimes, you know, armchair economists and activists, men usually were critiquing the issue of pay equity and tried to debate it. Say, well, look at the revenues generated. Okay, let's look at the revenues. From 2016 to 18, the women generated $50.8 million and the men were $49.9. So they're generating more money and getting paid a fraction of that. Well, pretty much. And then they'll argue that, you know, men's football on the global scale is a bigger, yes, it's a bigger product because if you invest world-class money into something,

you'll get those results. So women are bringing you results without that money. And it must be noted that the women's U.S. Women's National Team kit is the highest selling kit in the history of Nike USA sports. That's very important. And I mean, if we're just looking at TV numbers here, so the U.S. England semifinal game generated 7 million viewers in the U.S. That's huge advertising revenue. 600,000 in Canada, 11 million in the UK. The BBC said it was the most watched TV event of the year. Yeah, and I don't doubt that. I think these numbers speak for themselves. I mean, the US women's national team are basically carrying

the flag of soccer in that nation. I don't even know if like general American public can even name some of the players, but they know the names of the women players. I want to say this. I have a lot of respect for that team for also navigating this journey and the way that they've handled themselves. Because don't forget, they're in the middle of a lawsuit right now against essentially their employers. In a stunning move on International Women's Day, all 28 members of the team filed a gender discrimination lawsuit

against the U.S. Soccer Federation. They will be going they've agreed to mediation after the tournament was over but even even for the women to get their money that bonus they still have to do a victory tour they don't just get the money so their work is not done yet even though they've won. And even though they're in the middle of this lawsuit which which is about pay equity. Yes, exactly. And I think this is really telling that what we expect of women athletes and women footballers, not only can they just go to the pitch and perform and train and the amount of grueling mental and physical training it requires, they're also expected to handle all of these things and be able to focus despite the noise.

And there's a lot of noise. There's a lot of Americans that are really angry with them. If you go out and you disparage the president, you act in unpatriotic ways and then complain about not getting paid equally, well, what do you think is going to happen? People are going to watch. Tell me why there are a lot of Americans who are angry with them. Well, I mean, first of all, Megan Rapinoe is talking about things like the U.S. being founded on slavery.

I feel very fortunate to be in this country. I would never be able to do this in a lot of other places. But also, that doesn't mean that we can't get better. Which, to be very honest with you, Trump supporters aren't interested in hearing that. Right, she's refusing to go to the White House. And she said straight out, she says, I'm not going to the effing White House because he doesn't fight for the same things that we fight for. And then her teammate, Allie Krieger, went on CNN and said, I refuse to respect a man that warrants no respect. One thing I am curious to get your perspective on, so we're talking about this team, which is generating more revenue than their male counterparts.

But what about other women's national teams like Spain or Mexico or even WNBA players? Do you think they should be paid equal to men's teams, even if they're generating far less revenue than those teams? Well, I think it's very important historically to keep in mind that the NBA didn't start making money for a long time. So it's almost like we expect the women to have won something before we give them something. It doesn't work like that. And it certainly didn't work like that for the men's leagues. And as far as federations like Brazil or Argentina go, those are arguments used against them, against the teams. So if the teams don't perform, you won't give them money. But if you don't give them money, how are they expected to perform?

And this is a basic premise of sports development. You have to invest in youth and girls programs. You know, that is slow. That is slow to happen. I mean, Brazil has fostered and produced some of the most incredible women footballers. You know, Marta Vieira de Silva, she's a legend. And what she's been through, what some of her teammates have done, like have left the team on purpose because of the, you know, flagrant racism, misogyny, homophobia, and just lack of support. Today, I'm being selfish. I'm thinking about my health and sanity because I thought during 17

years I spoke up, I made requests like a lot of the other girls that have been on the team and nothing changed. So I don't have the strength to continue. And they continue to play. Women are not in this for the fame and the money. They're really in this because they love this game. Can you tell me, I know there was, speaking of Marta Vieira da Silva, can you tell me, I know there was this moment that came in the early stages of the tournament

as the Brazilian team were eliminated from play. It was this rousing speech from Marta. And what did she say? And how do you think it personifies some of what we talked about today? One of the most beautiful things for me in this tournament, aside from the lipstick colors that she was wearing, because she just nailed that, was in the end when she was going, she looked at the camera directly in her interview and she spoke beautifully in Portuguese. And I don't speak Portuguese, but I was so riveted by what she was saying. She was speaking to young girls and she was saying,

There won't always be a Marta. There won't always be a Formiga, who is another player. She's the most capped Brazilian player. This is her seventh World Cup. And she was saying that you have to invest yourself, your time and your dedication, and you have to do it. So she's basically rousing up that love from those young girls that it's quite easy to get diss you know, dissuaded in places

like Brazil. So she was trying to keep that passion going. And even though her team was exiting prematurely, you know, there was high hopes for Brazil at the tournament. She was trying to say this is a fight that isn't finished. Shireen, thank you so much. I've so enjoyed this conversation today. Thanks, Jamie. That's it for this week. So just a note to say that I'm going on holiday for the next couple of weeks, but you'll be in really good hands with my colleague, Michelle Shepard, who's going to host. So is Matt Braga, who's been on the pod before, and our very fantastic producer, Chris Berube. And I also just wanted to say a very heartfelt thank you to all of you for listening to this podcast as we got it up and running and as we continue to hone it and to this incredible, incredible team for everything.

and to this incredible, incredible team for everything. FrontBurner comes to you from CBC News and CBC Podcast. The show is produced by Matt Alma, Carispa Rubay, Imogen Burchard, Elaine Chao, Levi Garber, Amanda Grant, Shannon Higgins, and Ashley Mack. Derek VanderWijk does our sound design, with help this week from Julia Whitman. Our music is by Joseph Chavison of Bootbox Sound. Thank you. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging.

A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog. She names it Gay Girl in Damascus. Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger. The object of the email was, please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone. Available now.