Front Burner - They see no future': Hong Kong pro-democracy leader

Episode Date: November 19, 2019

Violent confrontations at Hong Kong’s universities are yet another escalation in almost six months of demonstrations. Today on Front Burner, we talk to the former head of the Democratic Party of Hong Kong, Emily Lau, about the longstanding tensions between Hong Kong and China, what’s at stake for the protesters, and whether there’s an appetite for a peaceful solution.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. This is Hong Kong's Polytechnic University. At the beginning of last week, the university was a safe place for young people. Then, a fortress for protesters,

and now a prison of sorts for anyone still inside. When we recorded this on Monday evening, demonstrators were trapped and police were demanding surrender after a days-long standoff. Police brought tear gas, rubber bullets, and water cannons blasting corrosive blue dye. They threatened using lethal force. Protesters had armed themselves with gasoline bombs and bows and arrows, even lighting a bridge on fire. Similar scenes played out at other universities this week as well. These protests over Chinese influence, they've taken a toll on Hong Kong. Nearly 4,500 people have been arrested since this all started nearly six months ago.

Major veins of transportation have been cut off. Hong Kong is sinking into a recession. Today on FrontBurner, what will it take to satisfy demonstrators? And is a peaceful solution possible? I'll be speaking with Emily Lau in Hong Kong. She's the former chairperson of Hong Kong's Democratic Party and a longtime pro-democracy leader. Emily, thank you so much for joining me this morning. Good morning or good evening.

I should say for us, we're talking on Monday night and for you, it's Tuesday morning. So these protests started with anger over a bill that would allow the extradition of fugitives to mainland China. But I know this bill has since been withdrawn. So can you tell me what's keeping these demonstrators on the streets still? Well, I think these people, and of course, many of them are young people. They are demonstrating for their future. And actually, if you have a chance to talk to some of them, they will tell you they see no future. And they say, if that's the case, even if I die,

I have nothing to lose. I'm not sure. Maybe I will die. I will get arrested today. But anyway, we will try to fight here and don't let the police hit us again. And actually, some people have been talking to me. They say, gee, Hong Kong is funny. If we look at demonstrations in Lebanon, in Chile, in Bolivia, in other places, most of them anyway, it's about economic reasons. But Hong Kong government is awash with money. And these people on the streets, they are not asking for money or something. They are asking for freedom, for personal safety. Now, we are part of China, but we are Hong Kong's special administrative region of China. Right. And this dates back to 1997, right?

When Hong Kong, a British territory, was handed over to China. Seconds before midnight, the British flag was lowered to the strains of God Save the Queen. The Chinese army band then played the Chinese national anthem to signal the moment that Hong Kong became a special administrative region of China. Exactly. And at that time, actually, the people were very apprehensive about communist rule because most of the Hong Kong people either fled from mainland China as refugees or to seek refuge in the British colony or children of such people. So they're very afraid. under the late strongman Deng Xiaoping, he said, don't worry, Hong Kong,

we will take you back, but the communists will not come and run Hong Kong. You will have one country, two systems. And tell me what that means. Like, what did China promise at the time when they said you'll have one country, two systems? That is, within China, the People's Republic of China, Hong Kong people will continue to have the capitalist system to enjoy free lifestyle. And as Mr. Deng said,

you know, you can still go to horse racing and you can continue to dance. President Jiang Zemin welcomed back the citizens of Hong Kong to the motherland, promising to implement the policy of one country, two systems to protect its autonomy. The Hong Kong residents shall enjoy various rights and freedoms. According to law, the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall gradually develop a democratic system that suits Hong Kong's reality. We can enjoy freedoms and personal safety and the rule of law, which the people in mainland China cannot enjoy. But now the protesters are fearful that it will be one country, one system soon. And tell me why are the protesters fearful of this? Like, why do they think that these rights are being eroded? Because they see the long arm of the Communist Party stretching into Hong Kong. And it's not just in the last few months. Actually, it's been that for quite a number of years. Initially, after 97, it was okay. But then, you know, after a while, I guess Beijing was impatient with us, unhappy.

So they kept interfering. And the people saw that as a very ominous sign. And so an example of this would be this bill that would allow fugitives to be extradited to China. What are some other examples? Well, in fact, the Chinese have been talking about, you know, comprehensive, you know, monitoring and governance of Hong Kong. And they say you should emphasize one country more and don't always talk about two systems. And then, of course, over Hong Kong matters.

They issue all kinds of remarks and statements. And the government in Hong Kong, Chief Executive Carrie Lam, she's just always listening to Beijing. She does not stand up for us at all. Do people think she's like a puppet of Beijing? Exactly. And she was elected in 2017 by a committee of 1,200 people, mainly the business and political elites. Beijing wanted Carrie Lam, and Carrie Lam was there to carry out their orders. I understand the chief executive has to have the support of Beijing, but the person should have the support and confidence of the Hong Kong people like walking a tight rope, but she just keeled over. That's why people are hopping mad. She has pulled back, right, on this controversial bill. It's been scrapped. The decision is one of the Hong Kong SAR government in the same way that the bill was introduced,

the bill was initiated, introduced and taken forward by the Hong Kong SAR government. Well, my dear, you know, when she introduced the bill and then she could not get a committee to be properly formed in the LegCo because the pro-democracy politicians were protesting. And her government said, OK, no scrutiny in the legislature. I will go straight to second and third reading and get it passed. So what happened? We have a million people marching in the streets of Hong Kong on the 9th of June. And then what did she say? She said, three days later, I will still go to the council.

Wow. Right. What kind of person is it? One million marching. And she just turned a blind eye. What would you say to some people that would argue that the system is working and is defending people's rights? I mean, this bill was scrapped eventually. On Monday, the Hong Kong High Court ruled a controversial ban on wearing face masks was unconstitutional. The ban was enacted under emergency legislation on the grounds of quelling months of political unrest. It bars anyone from covering their faces during public assemblies and sparked uproar from pro-democratic protesters and their supporters. Well, I think all these things happen too little too late. If she had accepted the people's wish

and scrapped the bill or after the march on June the 9th, my dear friend, none of what you've seen in the past five and a half months would have happened because the people would be happy because that march on the 9th of June

was very peaceful. Like all the former marches in Hong Kong. Not a single bottle was broken, but she refused. The day ended violently. Protesters pushing through barricades, trying to storm Hong Kong's legislature. An eruption of anger after a protest the Hong Kong government acknowledged was peaceful. The crowds notable for their size and diversity. Fear over the government's extradition bill is widespread. And then when she finally caved in, she did not withdraw the bill.

She said the bill is suspended and it will die after the session is over. What does that mean? After repeated internal deliberations over the last two days, I now announce that the government has decided to suspend the legislative amendment exercise. So she is still refusing to accept the people's wish. She is very stubborn. So what do these protesters want? What is their endgame here? Well, I think at first they wanted the bill scrapped. And then, of course, the people want amnesty.

They want amnesty for the people who were arrested during the protests? That's right. There's about 4,500 now, right? I know. And they also want the setting up of an independent commission of inquiry to look into why it all happened. And this is something that's done in Hong Kong a number of times before. And ultimately, of course, they want democratic elections. They're not asking for independence. Some may be, maybe a small number, but the vast majority are not asking for independence from China.

But they want to have the right to elect our local government, including the chief executive and all members of the legislature. I can't help but notice, though, I've been watching these images all week and there's so much violence right now. Do you think an inquiry is enough? Do you think promises around elections are enough? Well, of course. I mean, things have gone from bad to worse and there's no end in sight. It's terrible. You are right to question whether an inquiry will satisfy the protesters. But right now, as we speak, I still think the majority, quite vast majority of Hong Kong people, that of course would include people in the pro-Beijing camp.

I think they support this inquiry. And you must understand that Hong Kong is a city that is completely split asunder. There are those who are very, you know, pro-democracy. Some even support the violent protests. And there are those who don't, but want, you know, change. And there are those who are very pro-Beijing. But this inquiry, I think, is the thing that many people would support. Can it help? I think so. Will it end all the violence? No. But if many people are prepared to accept it and think it is a fair and truly independent inquiry, many will stay home. As you look at all the protests, there are many people coming out,

not all of them engaged in violence, but there are many standing there handing out the water, the bricks and everything. Many of these people may stay home if we have an inquiry. This inquiry, do you think Beijing will even let this happen? Adding more democratic positions to Hong Kong, will China let that happen? Well, that's the $60,000 question. And so I think it turns on what does China want to do? Or more correctly, what does President Xi Jinping want to do to Hong Kong? does President Xi Jinping want to do to Hong Kong? Is Hong Kong still useful, important to China?

Or does President Xi want to destroy Hong Kong and just allow it to sink to the bottom of the Victoria Harbour? As we speak, I think Hong Kong is still important. Why is it important? You mentioned before that Hong Kong was awash in money. Well, you see, there are actually many mainland Chinese in Hong Kong investing, living. You know, many Chinese companies here, they dominate our stock market. So they are benefiting directly. And also China, our financial sector is very important to China.

They say Shanghai may one day take over or Shenzhen or whatever, take over from Hong Kong as an international financial center. And people just laugh. There's no chance. They don't have the rule of law and the currency. The renminbi is not freely convertible. They have to rely on Hong Kong with the IPOs and all these things. So they know it.

And if they kill Hong Kong the way it is because it is a safer place for international commerce, because there is some kind of rule of law there. It's used as a gateway. Sure, but I think you say they want to preserve Hong Kong as it is. That is not right. Okay. They want Hong Kong as a gateway. You're right.

But they want Hong Kong as a gateway for international commercial and business activities on their terms. But, my dear friend, that's not going to happen. If you take away the freedoms, the rule of law, what is left? We'll be like Shanghai. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

I know there are people in Hong Kong. You mentioned that this is a city divided, right? They are fed up that roads are blocked and school semesters are cut short. Hong Kong has been thrown into a recession. What would you say to people who think the protesters are making things worse, that they're actually ruining the very way of life that they're trying to protect? Well, that is true. And it is for the Hong Kong people to decide. There are people with different views but those who are out there i think they're still out there as we speak blocking the roads

risking getting arrested they do it and you can't stop them you don't want to do it you can scold them they say so what i'm using my freedom my life to fight for what I believe in. If you don't want to do it, so what? If these protests continue, what do you think that China and Beijing are going to do here? Well, many people have asked that question. So again, it goes back to what does President Xi Jinping want to do to Hong Kong? And he may say, oh, Hong Kong, you're a naughty child. I will just crush you.

We've got the People's Liberation Army here stationed since 97. But if they decide to unleash the army onto the streets of Hong Kong to quell the unrest, it's going to be mayhem. That's a possibility. I mean, I know there were Chinese soldiers on the streets of Hong Kong this week, but they were dressed in shorts and they were helping clear debris off the road. For some in Hong Kong, this also ominous. Soldiers from China's People's Liberation Army cleaning up the streets. What seems like a non-threatening act, but it's only the second time Chinese troops have been seen on Hong Kong streets since 1997. But do you think it's a real possibility that the Chinese

army could come in here? Well, we can never rule anything out, particularly with the Communist Party. Always remember, the way they think, the way they rationalize things is very different from ours. So if we lose our own way of thinking, they would not do this, they would not do that, very often you'll be wrong, you'll be surprised. But I think even Beijing understands the world is watching. I mean, the governments in the international community, they don't want to see that. And they have spoken out against that.

We don't want another Tiananmen Square. The massacre that took place 30 years ago in Beijing, we don't want that repeated. The noise of gunfire rose from all over the centre of Peking. It was unremitting. On the streets leading down to the main road to Tiananmen Square, furious people stared in disbelief at the glow in the sky, listening to the sound of shots.

You hear people talking about that already, the potential of another Tiananmen Square. Of course, both in Hong Kong and internationally. And of course, many people, many governments say so, not just for the love of us, because they have their own people here. I think in Canada's case, they say there's an estimate of about what, 300,000?

300,000 Canadian citizens in Hong Kong. Living in Hong Kong, and I don't know how many thousands of Canadian companies operating here, and America to UK and other places. They are also talking about the interests of their own nationals and their companies. So, of course, they don't want to see all of that going down the drain and they don't have to mount an evacuation flight. So it is a very serious matter. Emily Lau, I know that the situation there is moving very quickly. Thank you so much for being here today and for taking the time.

Please be safe. Thank you. Thank you. So as Emily mentioned, countries around the world have been weighing in here. And also, as she mentioned, there are some 300,000 Canadians living in Hong Kong. On Monday, a spokesperson for Global Affairs Canada said it was crucial that restraint be exercised, violence rejected, and urgent steps taken to de-escalate the situation in Hong Kong. The spokesperson reiterated that Hong Kong's autonomy under the one country, two systems principle must continue to be upheld. Since universities have become the ground zero of these protests, Canadian universities have urged their exchange students to leave Hong Kong. On Monday, UBC said 11 students have left Hong Kong already. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thank you so much

for listening to FrontBurner, and see you all tomorrow.