Front Burner - TikTok’s power and the push to ban it

Episode Date: March 28, 2023

TikTok is facing tough questions from many western democracies about the personal data it gathers and who has access to it. The app’s parent company is based in China and now US politicians want to make sure the country’s government can’t get access to Americans’ personal information. They aren’t liking the answers they’re getting. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. One of the world's most popular social media platforms, TikTok, is under increasing fire. The social media giant has recently been barred from government devices in the United States and here in Canada, too. Just last week, its CEO was hauled in front of a congressional committee and grilled by politicians on both sides of the aisle over its

relationship with China. Some are calling for a forced sale. There are growing calls for an outright ban. Here to help make sense of where we're at is Bobby Allen. He's a tech correspondent with National Public Radio, and he is based in Los Angeles. Hey, Bobby, thanks so much for coming on to FrontBurner. Thanks for having me. So I think saying TikTok is a social media giant might actually even be downplaying it a little bit. And to get rolling here, I wonder if you could just place TikTok, and it's really meteoric rise in recent years, in a larger context for me. Yeah, so TikTok really surged during the pandemic when everyone was sheltering in place and staring

at their screens all day. And that momentum led to 1 billion users worldwide. In the US alone, there are 150 million monthly active users, which is absolutely extraordinary. So this app is routinely the most downloaded app in the US. Creators of all stripes are using it on a daily basis. It really has become a centerpiece of internet culture. I mean, if you go on Instagram, if you go on YouTube, any other video platform right now is completely swamped with with content that originates on TikTok. So not only is it a place where people are sharing videos, but it is a place of community is increasingly a place where people are generating income, where people are understanding the news where people are getting analysis of the news and where people are generating income, where people are understanding the news, where people are getting analysis of the news,

and where people are getting, you know, lots of laughs. If you wake up every day sad, broke, alone, I got one thing I gotta say to you. Damn. Here comes the boy. Hello, boy. Bombastic side-eye. Bombastic side eye. Criminal offensive side eye.

What do you think it is about TikTok compared to some of the other apps, the Instagrams, the Facebooks, even the Twitters, that has made it so popular? Like, why is it so much more popular, it seems like, especially with younger people? You know, the sort of cliche answer to this is typically the secret sauce algorithm. That's kind of the phrase that people like using. And it's true that the algorithm that powers TikTok is really powerful in learning who you are very, very quickly. It could really get into your sort of very nichey sort of micro interest, whether you're into kind of, you know, the skateboarding scene in Berlin or you're into making vegan pasta. I mean, whatever you can think of, TikTok can sort of clock it very quickly and just send you a constant stream of videos.

But that's not it, right? I mean, algorithms that power all social media apps are powerful and can learn a lot about us very quickly. What makes TikTok distinct? It's a few things. First, it's the community. There is just a really tremendous community and micro communities that have emerged on TikTok around comedy, around sports, around sort of TV and movie commentary. Everyone is sort of gathering on TikTok to have a really large conversation. Also, the user experience is seamless. It's flawless.

It's easy to use. It's fast to use. It's very fun and addicting. And sort of finally, it's this sense of virality. You could have zero followers and do a video and become a viral sensation overnight. And that kind of sense of spontaneity and, oh my gosh,

this video might make me popular, at least for a second, makes it really special. Gym workout routine good for beginners. Day one digest and bicep. Here's some makeup hacks to add to your routine that will totally change your makeup game. More cooking hacks I learned working in restaurant. This series just continues to go viral. So let's do it again. And for people who aren't part of this community and who don't use the app, why should they care about the popularity of TikTok? And in this story in general, it's potential regulation. TikTok is a platform that is informing an entire generation. I'm in Los Angeles, and when I talk to Gen Z about where they get their news,

they're increasingly saying TikTok. Instead of Googling things, young people are turning to TikTok. It is becoming the place where young people are not just, you know, watching dance videos. It's becoming the place where they're understanding, you know, the geopolitical crisis in China, right? They're understanding the war in Ukraine. It's shaping the worldview of a lot of young people, and that can directly influence how they vote, how they view the world, decisions that they make. And it's important to people who maybe have never used or don't care about TikTok because it has increasingly become the number one place of data collection and data storage. And that kind of gets at some of the issues that Washington is concerned with. But just the mass, massive amount of data that this app collects on people all around the world should be something that I think is concerning to anyone.

Take me through why Washington is so concerned here. Like, why are we why are we talking today? There has been a years long standoff between the US and China and sort of caught in those cross currents is TikTok that the, you know, lawmakers in DC see TikTok as potentially a tool for espionage, that the Chinese government could use it to spy on Americans as a way to promote and disseminate disinformation about world events and about elections. And the US has really cracked down hard on instances of China trying to steal technological intellectual property on other instances of Chinese spying, the list goes on

and TikTok is just the sort of concern du jour when it comes to China. But there used to be such a thing as sort of a soft or moderate position on China. But now both parties can't agree really on anything politically. But they can agree that China is a country that is adversarial, that they're hostile, that we need to sort of shut down any connections that Americans have to China because their government is not to be trusted. And just take me through why they think TikTok poses these risks, right? Because it is my understanding that TikTok is headquartered in Singapore and LA, right? But its parent company, ByteDance, is a big part of this story, right? So unpack that for me. Well, just to be clear, TikTok does have a headquarters in Los Angeles. And where they're based, they do some sort of public relations jujitsu. There was a while during the Trump administration where they said, no, we're a global company. Our workforce is distributed. We're actually technically based

in the Cayman Islands, hoping that that would alleviate some of the pressure in Washington. Well, that didn't work, right? So yes, they have a big office in LA. But I mean, at the end of the pressure in Washington, well, that didn't work, right? So yes, they have a big office in LA. But I mean, at the end of the day, ByteDance is the overlord of TikTok. They're the corporate parent company, and they're the ultimate boss decisions stop with ByteDance. And because of that link, lawmakers just do not trust it. Because there are laws in China, sort of intelligence laws in China that require private businesses to turn over unfettered access on customers to the government when it is requested. They must compel or they will be put out of business.

Here's the main point of concern. China's 2017 national intelligence law states very clearly that, quote, any organization or citizen shall support, assist and cooperate with state intelligence work in accordance with the law and maintain the secrecy of all knowledge of state intelligence work. In other words, ByteDance and also your TikTok employees that live in China, they must cooperate with Chinese intelligence whenever they are called upon. And if they are called upon, they're bound to secrecy. And if they are called upon, they're bound to secrecy.

China has cracked down and banned Instagram, Twitter, YouTube. So it's some people look at sort of the U.S.'s sort of moves against TikTok and say, wow, we sure are taking a page out of the Chinese playbook, aren't we? Yeah. And when lawmakers were grilling TikTok CEO Xiuqu last week, what were they saying about all of this? Well, lawmakers really were searching for some kind of persuasive case to be made from Xiuqu that employees in China and the Chinese government will not be able to get access to Americans' data. And it was a train wreck. It was a disaster. It was pretty brutal to watch because he was evasive. At one point, he was asked point blank, can you please tell me whether right now Mike Dance employees in Beijing can get access to Americans' data? And his answer was, it's complex.

Access to data is controlled by American personnel. Do any Mike Dance employees in China, including engineers, currently have access to U.S. data. Congressman, I would appreciate this. This is a complex topic. Today, all data is stored by default. It's not that complex. Yes or no. So because of his inability to give a direct and clear and simple answer on some of these very basic questions, I think it furthered distrust among lawmakers in Washington. of these very basic questions, I think it furthered distrust among lawmakers in Washington.

But yeah, they were really trying to understand whether Shou Chu can show that China really is firewalled off from TikTok. And I think by all accounts, he did not fulfill that. It was very unsatisfactory. Bobby, are there any examples that we know about or evidence that people's data has been accessed or used by the Communist Party of China? No. So there's no sort of direct connection, as far as we know, in the public record of the Chinese Communist Party accessing Americans' data. The U.S. government has not declassified any evidence that may showcase that that is

happening. Were there any other moments that really stood out to you from the hearing? The overall tone of the meeting really stood out to me. I mean, Shou Chu wasn't able to complete his sentences many times. He was often interrupted. He was scoffed at. He was scolded. Look, this is a bit of showboating by lawmakers. Lawmakers are hoping to get their one sort of viral moment so that their constituents can see it. And it looks like that they're being really tough on China and sort of bringing down the hammer on TikTok. So there was a bit of theater there, right? But it was really disappointing to see that Xiuqu just wasn't able to answer some pretty basic questions directly.

Overall, he was kind of just squirming in his seat and, you know, really taking a drubbing from these lawmakers. I imagine companies like Facebook Meta would like to see TikTok banned in the United States. Is that safe to say, or is it a more complicated picture than that? Oh, no. I mean, I think the sort of social media incumbents out here in California, Facebook, Twitter, and others would have a huge, huge benefit to their bottom line if TikTok was put under. I mean, there would be a, you know, huge avalanche of content creators trying to find a new home for their videos. And the easiest place to go would be the, you know, to the YouTubes and the Instagrams of the world. And in fact, social media companies have been spending millions of dollars to bend the ear

of lawmakers in Washington and to try to sort of beat the drum that TikTok is a national security threat and poses a real risk to the privacy and the safety of everyday Americans. They probably do see TikTok as a threat, but more than anything else, they see it as, you know, a problem to their bottom line and something that gets in the way of sort of maximizing profits. What are lawmakers and experts worried about? The potential consequences could be if the Chinese government was able to access all of this data. What are some scenarios they would be concerned about happening? Right. The rhetoric from lawmakers has been pretty dire.

You have lawmakers calling TikTok a gateway drug for Chinese propaganda, calling it digital fentanyl. But it does point to the overall concern, which is that if the Chinese government was able to get its hands on TikTok data, that that data could then be used to sort of influence the minds and opinions of Americans. And you might think, this sounds crazy. This is never going to happen. Well, take a look at Duoyen, which is the TikTok equivalent in China. TikTok actually doesn't exist in China, but they have an app that's basically a copycat app that is owned by ByteDance. And that has had been shown to suppress views and videos and narratives that are countered

to the Chinese, to the positions that are favorable to the Chinese government. That app has been shown to amplify mis- and disinformation about the war in Ukraine, about the South China Sea, about growing hostilities in Taiwan. in Ukraine, about the South China Sea, about growing hostilities in Taiwan. So critics of TikTok say, well, if ByteDance is letting that happen and maybe putting its finger on the scale at the behest of the Chinese government with its China-based app, what's stopping them from doing it with TikTok? In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Cops. I've heard some people argue that because there is a real lack of evidence that China has been able to access this data, that all of the rhetoric around TikTok is fueling xenophobia. And what would you make of that argument?

Yeah, one thing I'm reminded of is I was in Berlin recently doing some reporting and I was talking to a leading anti tech advocate there who laughed off Americans concerns with TikTok. And he said, you know, if Germans are worried about any kind of spying, we're worried about the US government, not TikTok, right? And I thought that perspective was very illuminating, because there is a small but growing counter movement in the US that is saying exactly that, that maybe these concerns with China are fueled by xenophobia, are fueled by a bias against China. Because as we've been discussing, there has not yet been any proof

that the Chinese government has ever used TikTok data for intelligence purposes. So if there is a lack of clear evidence, then why are we so up in arms? And, you know, there's a couple members of Congress, including Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, and others who say this is just ridiculous. If we don't have proof that this is happening, why are we trying to put this company under? And it seems like, you know, she and others would say that this is just driven by our sort of distrust of China and that it's unfair. Hey, everyone, this is rep AOC, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. And this is my first TikTok. Now, this is not only my first TikTok,

but it is a TikTok about TikTok. Now, this week... And then there's a second group of critics who say it's unconstitutional because it violates free speech rights. And these were some of the legal hurdles that the Trump executive order came up against. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So what do you think happens next here? These hearings were really quite objectively disastrous for the CEO, but TikTok has announced moves to kind of bolster their personal data security. I believe they've called this Project Texas. And what do you think is going to happen next? Yeah, so TikTok has been negotiating with lawmakers in Washington for two years and trying to put in place this $1.5 billion restructuring plan called Project Texas, which would basically create a new legal entity.

It would bring on board thousands of new employees and firewall off the Americans TikTok data from the Chinese government. It would bring in this American software company called Oracle, which is based in Austin, Texas, which is where the project gets its name from. And most national security experts who have examined this plan have been impressed. They have said TikTok is taking these concerns seriously. This plan would create new transparency and accountability. And so when I was hearing that as a tech reporter, I thought, oh, wow, it's going to be approved. TikTok is safe. They can breathe a sigh of relief. But then there was really intense meetings in the White House.

And there was a real split among top Biden administration officials. Some were saying, let's approve this plan. These measures are enough. We could move on. And others were saying, no, no, no, no. This plan still says that ByteDance will be the corporate parent. And as long as that is the case, we cannot approve it for political reasons. So right now, this is likely going to go to the courts. TikTok is going to be implementing

this new Project Texas plan, but we're likely to see battles playing out in US federal courts over what the Biden administration is or is not able to do. And most legal scholars have said it's going to be a really hard case for the U.S. government because the First Amendment in the U.S. is on TikTok side. Because courts have ruled in the U.S. that having free speech rights even applies to information that crosses into the country from a hostile nation. So Americans, because they're using TikTok every single day, they are expressing themselves on the app, even though it is owned by a foreign country. It still arguably would be an instance of the government suppressing American speech by putting TikTok out of business. And constitutional scholars say

there's no way that can happen legally in the US. That's such an interesting element of this. Bobby, thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Okay, that is all for today. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.