Front Burner - Trudeau, blackface and experiencing racism in Canada

Episode Date: September 20, 2019

Today on Front Burner, we talk to the National Observer’s Fatima Syed, and to doctor Ritika Goel, about Justin Trudeau’s blackface scandal, and why for so many Canadians of colour, it’s a familiar sort of racism.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. So as you all know by now, photos and videos of liberal leader Justin Trudeau wearing brown face and black face have surfaced. There are now three examples. One from 2001 when he was at a private school teaching in Vancouver and dressed up as a character in Aladdin for a school fundraiser.

Then there's a photo of him in blackface in high school where he performed the song Deo at a talent show. And a video where Trudeau again in blackface is laughing and making faces. It's not known exactly where and when that was taken. He says that he knows now that this has hurt people. What I did hurt them, hurt people who shouldn't have to face intolerance and discrimination because of their identity. This is something that I deeply, deeply regret. Today, we talk about the kind of racism that's at work in what Trudeau did

and what it reveals about the experience for so many racialized Canadians in this country. Fatima Syed is a reporter with the National Observer. She just wrote about Trudeau's brownface and blackface photos and the issue of race in this election. And Rithika Goel is a family doctor from Toronto. She wrote a Twitter thread about this issue yesterday that's now actually gone viral. This is Frontburner. Rithika, hello. Hello.

Thank you so much for being here. Fatima, hi. Hi, Jamie. I should say Fatima and I worked together at the Toronto Star. Fatima, how did you feel when you first saw them? I sort of had a visceral flashback. Everyone, the first fact I saw about the photo was that it was taken in 2001. And then that year is very poignant for everyone because it's also the year of 9-11 and that's what

we associate with. That was the year a lot changed for brown people across the world. I remember being in middle school at the time being bullied. How were you bullied? People would call me names, whether it was terrorist or Paki or, you know, make writing comments about the color of my skin or my culture. And it impacts you and it stays with you for a very, very long time. So when you see a photo like that, it's not the best feeling in the world to realize that the prime minister of your country partook in that and was part of that mockery, that apparent mockery in some way. And, you know, not to take away from your experience in 2001, I just want to point out that it does appear that the photo was taken before 9-11.

Yeah. You know, not that that changes your experience. Between the two experiences at all, but it's just a mental connection I made just seeing the year the photo was taken. Absolutely. Rithika? I made just seeing the year the photo was taken. Absolutely. Rithika? I was actually completely not surprised when I saw the photo. It was sort of one of these, of course, you know, of course, he engaged in this behavior. Of course, he being the person he is embodying the identities that he embodies would not have understood why this type of an action might be something that was insensitive or hurtful or has a particular history for particularly black communities.

Can you unpack that a little bit more for me when you say him being the kind of person that he is? You weren't surprised. What do you mean by that? I mean that in our society, we have layers of power structures. So related to one's race, their gender, their sexual orientation, their ability, their religion, there are a number of things where the society has been really structured to privilege certain groups and marginalize other groups. Trudeau, through just his experience being an able-bodied, cisgender, heterosexual white man who's of an upper social class, who is the son of a prime minister, by definition really would not have had any experiences of marginalization or oppression. And also there is kind of this implicit entitlement that I think white communities have had historically throughout the world to other people's cultures and to other people's land, to other people's bodies. So to me, this is a symbol of all of that. And I think it almost, it doesn't really matter whether he knew or he didn't know.

Today, he talked about layers of privilege. That's what we're talking about here. Absolutely. And when you think, when you say you think it doesn't really matter whether he knew it was racist or not, can you elaborate on that for me just quickly? Yeah, because this isn't really about intentions, right? So we talk a lot in North American society around whether or not someone is a racist. And I feel a lot of that has to do with equating being a racist or being racist with being bad. And so we kind of dichotomize good and bad. And,

you know, being labeled racist is considered probably one of the worst things you could be labeled in contemporary society. But historically, this society was built with structures of racism, going all the way back to the state being founded on the colonization of indigenous people's lands. So really, the history of Canada is a history of structural racism. So I think we have to grapple with that when we see issues like this come up. Otherwise, we're really missing the picture. Fatima? Justin Trudeau could wipe off his face and still succeed at life, and he would still be okay. He didn't have to face the burden of a brown man,

even if he was pretending to be one for one night. Whereas, as Ritika said, like, everywhere in this country, there are communities of color that struggle simply based on their skin color. And I think that's the conversation that this very jarring, very visually upsetting photo has started that we're now trying to grapple with. Right. And do you think that this is a conversation that we haven't been having? No, not constructively at all. Even with a prime minister that has labeled himself as inclusive and, you know, touted diversity in this country?

Part of the reason why the photo was jarring for me is because the prime minister labeled himself as such a champion of multiculturalism and diversity. But that is all he's done. He's just been a champion. A photo like this puts into question his motivation. So what do you see? Do you see virtue signaling? Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, I think I see there's a question I have in my mind about whether he really means what he said when he says that Canada's greatest asset is its diversity. I do want to get both of your perspectives on whether you think he could be forgiven for this. Some of his MPs have come to his defense today. Greg Fergus, a black MP seeking reelection in Quebec, said that Trudeau should be judged on his great record, promoting equality and diversity, which, you know, it does sound like, Fatima, you would disagree with and not on incidents 20 years ago. Rithika, do you think that he can apologize and that people could forgive him for this? I think he can apologize and people might very well forgive him. But I think that speaks to his white privilege because he's able to engage in an act that is, you know, one of the few things that I think is considered to be an explicitly racist act and be the leader of a nation and still potentially be forgiven.

And it's this sort of notion of innocence and intention that is not necessarily afforded to other people. I want to ask you, in his apology, he said that he didn't think it was racist at the time. And is this a familiar explanation to you, Fatima? Have you heard this before? All the time. I think it's almost like an instinctive reaction. Every time someone says to someone that, oh, that was racist, they're like, really? Are you sure? I didn't think it was. Why do you say it was? This idea that this is a familiar

refrain to you, this kind of stuff happens all the time. Have you ever had someone say something to you that you thought was racist, but that like maybe they didn't understand was racist? When we first came to Canada almost 10 years ago, my mom wears the hijab. So my mom and I were walking in a mall together. And this family turned around and looked at her and said, Why? Why are these people here? It was just a casual comment made by complete strangers. And I remember confronting them and saying hey you don't have to be racist we don't even know you and the man turned to me and he said that wasn't racist that was that's what I believe like I just you know you don't look Canadian I don't understand why you're here he he had no idea how upsetting that was to newly landed immigrants in a brand new country who didn't know anyone.

There is a huge blindness when it comes to these things, and it manifests in small ways and big ways. But there is an ignorance that is really hurtful when people don't understand what impact they're having by the words they're doing or by the actions that they're doing. You know, going to an Arabian themed night party might be okay. But from the outset, there are people who are going to take offense to that. And if we live in a pluralistic society, and we value that pluralistic society, we have to be mindful of all the perspectives and all the feelings of everyone in it. And I don't think people think that way.

Rithika, can someone be a good person and also have that blind spot? Like, can somebody be a good person and also do a racist thing? Absolutely. I think actually all of us have racist ideas and engage in racist actions because we learn racist stereotypes through all of our media. We're constantly seeing representations of racialized people in particular ways that deny their full humanity and their full dignity.

So that also, by the way, goes for racialized people, right? So that also, by the way, goes for racialized people, right? We also have a lot of internalized racism around our own ability to reach certain positions. of people in government, of people that are CEOs or in boardrooms, if all of those people tend to be white and tend to be male and tend to be able-bodied, then by definition, there is an understanding that's internalized by communities that don't look like that, that that isn't something that they can achieve. It's hard to see yourself there. Yeah, and those messages are also reinforced over and over again. But it's also emotionally uncomfortable. Like I know walking into a room where I know that I'm going to be the only person of color in the room is extremely uncomfortable to me.

Even now, even though that I've been in like, the Canadian media industry for a couple of years now. And I imagine you often find yourself. And I often am the only person of color in a scrum or in a room, you know, sometimes I've done interviews with like, four people, and they're all white, and I'm the only person of color. It feels like I'm fidgeting, I'm, you know, sitting still, I'm being mindful of what I'm saying, I'm trying to make a good impression. White people don't have to do that, to put it very simply. The most telling image, I thought even in a way more interesting than the brown face and black face images, was the image of the reporters that were waiting to interview Trudeau. Every single person on that plane was white.

And, you know, having a conversation about racism, and I think therein lies the problem, right? The narratives are shaped by people that don't have the experiences, and it just means that we perpetuate these ideas over and over. You know, I have to say, I feel uncomfortable having this conversation right now. I feel like perhaps I shouldn't be sitting here. Fatima, listening to you, does it feel like a burden?

Yes. When it comes to writing stories about race or talking about race as a member of the Canadian media industry, sometimes it does feel like a burden. about race as a member of the Canadian media industry, sometimes it does feel like a burden. For instance, when the news broke, you know, I messaged my editor. I'm like, you know, I've been, I have a lot of thoughts. Do I put them down on paper? And he said, do you want to? And I'm like, I don't know if I should. And the reason why I always say that every time a story about race comes in is because I know what to expect. I know that I'm going to get a lot of hate when I put that story out.

Having to actually engage in the discussion and to actually bring up what is happening and illuminate it when an overtly racist act is committed by the leader of a country, you know, something that you would think is just really not even up for debate, you still know that you're putting yourself out there in a way that is going to be harmful. And have you experienced some of that already just in the last 24 hours? Absolutely. My Twitter mentions are just full of racist, hateful, personal attacks. Also lots of, you know, wonderful messages, particularly from racialized people saying, you know, we appreciate you. And also from white folks that really understand these issues

and want to be able to really work together to dismantle the structures of power and to really start to move forward in a truly kind of more equal society. But yes, there's a lot of hate. I would add there are members of communities of color that have been messaging me all day just because they know I'm one of the only voices. And they're asking me, how did this happen?

What does this mean? And what are they saying? Are they just asking the questions or do they have thoughts as well? They have thoughts. They're confused. They're conflicted. Some of them are very, very angry. Some of them feel betrayed.

But it's just a lot of questions like can we still trust him? Is he still our guy? Is he still the guy that we thought he was who cares about immigrants, who cares about refugees? So you're kind of doing triple the work because you're talking to three different audiences. You're talking to white people, you're talking to media, and you're talking to the communities that are most affected because no one else is talking to them. And when you're talking to white people, like what are you trying to accomplish? I'm trying to help them understand how to tackle something like this.

What are the questions you should be asking? Why you should be caring? And why this is not just an issue that impacts a person of color, but an issue that impacts you as well. Because if someone like the Prime Minister of Canada can have a blind spot, so can you. And what are those questions? the Prime Minister of Canada can have a blind spot, so can you. And what are those questions? They're questions like, what can I do to help diminish racism in my community, in my bubble?

Have I contributed? Do you have mannerisms that might be considered like you're insulting someone of color than someone else, even as simple as mispronouncing their name. Have you been mindful of that in and of itself? It's a time of reflection for everyone, not just people of color, but for white people as well. It sounds like, and correct me if I'm wrong here, both of you, it sounds like what you both want here is a reckoning for Canadians more widely. And I wonder if Trudeau built this idea around himself that he was progressive and anti-racist, which is not dissimilar to the way that Canada, I think, thinks about itself. Yes, absolutely. I think part of why we're having such a crisis right now is because Justin Trudeau's brand closely aligns with the brand of Canada the good.

Canada the good. And so I think a lot of people see himself in their own thoughts around Canada being a warm and welcoming place that has public health care and that, you know, supports immigrants that doesn't build border walls. And we really do engage in this comparison with the U.S. all the time. Always say we're better than the U.S., we're better than the U.S. Exactly. And I think in so doing, what we do is we deny our own history, we deny our own current state. And, you know, a great example is that we like to point to the U.S. to say slavery is something that happened there. Canada had slavery too. There are lots of ways in which Canada has also engaged in structural racism along with other types of oppression. But I think Canadians don't like to think of themselves that way. We like to think about Canada as the place of, you know, polite people thating for people to see someone that they saw as the representative, the symbol of that whole mythology or narrative around Canada and saying, if even that person could do something that's considered overtly racist, then where does that leave us? And I think that's a really good question. I don't think we should be afraid of this conversation.

And I don't think this should become about whether or not we are all racists. I think racism exists in every sector in Canada, in minor and major ways. I think it's structurally ingrained in our society. And I think we can now talk about it, maybe. Maybe. But it really depends on whether Canadians will actually decide to talk about it. And I really, really hope they will because it's about time we had this conversation.

Fatima Syed, Arthika Goel, thank you so much for being here with me today. I appreciate it so, so much. Thank you. Thanks, Jamie. Okay, that's all for today. FrontBurner comes to you from CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show is produced by Shannon Higgins, Elaine Chao, Imogen Burchard, Chris Berube, and Matt Amah. I'm sad to say it's Matt's last day with us today, for now. Matt, you've been incredible.

We're really going to miss your very, very sharp intellect around here. And I can't wait to work with you again. Derek Vanderwyk is our sound designer and technician with help this week from Billy Heaton. Our music is by Joseph Chabison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of Frontburner is Nick McCabe-Locos. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. And please keep your eyes peeled for a very special bonus episode tomorrow. We're back on Monday. Have a great weekend.