Front Burner - Trudeau's right-hand man resigns amid SNC-Lavalin scandal

Episode Date: February 19, 2019

On Monday afternoon one of the most powerful men in Ottawa resigned. Following allegations of political interference in a court case involving engineering giant SNC-Lavalin, Gerald Butts stepped aside as the Principal Secretary to the Prime Minister. Today on Front Burner, CBC Parliamentary reporter John Paul Tasker explains why Justin Trudeau's most senior adviser-and longtime friend- would resign while denying any wrongdoing.

Hey there, I'm Kathleen Goltar and I have a confession to make. I am a true crime fanatic. I devour books and films and most of all true crime podcasts. But sometimes I just want to know more. I want to go deeper. And that's where my podcast Crime Story comes in. Every week I go behind the scenes with the creators of the best in true crime. I chat with the host of Scamanda, Teacher's Pet, Bone Valley, the list goes on. For the insider scoop, find Crime Story in your podcast app. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. Poisson. On Monday afternoon, one of the most powerful men in Ottawa resigned.

Big news rocking the political scene here. Principal Secretary to the Prime Minister. Gerald Butts, Principal Secretary to the Prime Minister. Jerry Butts wasn't just Justin Trudeau's top advisor. He was also his longtime friend. And while he denies any wrongdoing, his resignation is a direct result of an ongoing controversy over alleged political pressure in a court case involving engineering giant SNC-Lavalin. John Paul Tasker is a reporter at the CBC's Parliamentary Bureau, and he's here with me now to explain what is going on in Ottawa and what it means for Trudeau. This is an election year, after all. That's coming up on FrontBurner. JP, hey.

Hey, thanks for having me. Thanks so much for being here again. Bananas day in Ottawa today, hey? No kidding. Let's start today with a cold notes version of what happened Monday afternoon, and then we can unpack it more as we go along today. Yeah, so we're just sitting here, a few of us in the newsroom, things were pretty quiet. And all of a sudden, we see an email come across from Cameron Ahmed,

who's the Director of Communications in the Prime Minister's office, filling in for Kate Purchase while she's away on maternity leave. And it's a letter from Jerry Butts, who's the Principal Secretary of the Prime Minister, the closest member of the Prime minister's most senior staff, really a political bombshell announcing that he is resigning from the PMO, stepping back after nearly a decade in service to Trudeau in the political sphere. So a huge development in Ottawa here today. And what's been the reaction? Was this news as surprising for you as what this is shocking to me? Very, very much so, because they're so intertwined. You know, they're one in the same, frankly.

Jerry Butz has been advising the prime minister on political affairs, like I said, for almost a decade. They've been friends for much longer than that. They met at McGill University many moons ago. They were on the same debate team together. So they're not just political allies. They're also very close friends. And, you know, it's hard for any of us to think of the Prime Minister without seeing Gerry Butts behind him. He'll still have Katie Telford, who's the Chief of Staff,

who sort of manages the office and the staff in the office. But, you know, Gerry Butts was really the political mastermind behind the Prime Minister and his push to power. You know, he concocted most of the policy options

that we now associate with the government. The Canada Child Benefit was one of his big hallmark, you know, one of his big policy positions, and that was essentially giving more money to middle class and low class Canadians. He also has been a big advocate for the carbon tax, sorry, you know, he's been a big advocate for addressing global warming before stepping into the federal political sphere. He worked at World Wildlife Fund, you know, which does a lot of work on that file. And so he's been really touting attacks on carbon as a way to take on some of the, you know, perilous effects of climate change.

So some of the big things that you think about when you think of Justin Trudeau and the Liberal Party have come from Jerry Butz's mind. Well, Jerry Butz has been called Justin Trudeau's puppet master. You know, it's not uncommon, and I would be interested to hear your perspective, being in Ottawa, but it's not uncommon to hear people remark that Jerry Butz was essentially running the country in a way, that he was sort of the prime minister's brain. And what do you make of that? Yeah, for sure. He was either praised by, you know, his allies as a brilliant mind or vilified

by, you know, liberal foes as like the political puppet master behind the prime minister. And I think there's some truth to both, perhaps. You know, he was the man who kind of put together the platform in the last election campaign with the help of others, of course, but he was really leading the charge on that. And he was a very close advisor to the Prime Minister. Nothing really crossed his desk without Gerry taking a look at it. And some of the most important files of the last year have been on Gerry's watch. I'm thinking most importantly of the NAFTA renegotiation efforts. Gerry and the Prime Minister were very much involved personally on that file. Gerry was constantly on the phone with Jared Kushner,

you know, Donald Trump's son-in-law, you know, hashing out some of the finer details of that agreement. So he really has been behind everything. I don't ascribe bad motives to that. I just think that that's who he was. He was just a very well-regarded policy wonk. I want to specifically thank my good friends, Katie Telford and Gerald Butts.

And I know Jerry Butts also played a really pivotal role in helping the prime minister get elected in the first place. This campaign, which essentially took Justin Trudeau from a position of not being the favorite to win the last election to a majority victory. Absolutely. I mean, he gave him some street cred. You know, he gave him some policy bona fides, if you will. And Jerry Butts comes from this world. Before coming to Ottawa, you know, he worked in Toronto. He worked at Queen's Park. He worked under Dalton McGinty, the former Liberal Premier of that province. And he helped craft some of the most important policies of that government,

like phasing out coal-fired power plants, all-day kindergarten, raising the minimum wage. There's a few other things I'm probably forgetting. But he really has been in the trenches in the policy world in this country for the better part of two decades. So he really gave Justin Trudeau a platform to run on. Justin had the personality, he had the personal touch, you know, he had the history, the legacy coming from Pierre Elliott Trudeau, you know, he had that sort of thing to go on. But Jerry Butts was really the guy behind the scenes, really pulling all the levers to make sure that Justin Trudeau had something to run on other than just his smile. We've taken a team approach from day one.

The leader of it has done a phenomenal job, and that's Justin Trudeau. One thing I have heard about Jerry Butts is that this was a guy who understood the idea of a narrative and the idea of selling a politician or communicating the strengths of a politician to people. Dalton McGinty, you mentioned that he worked for Dalton McGinty, is quoted as saying, I find this quote kind of funny, Gerald helped me be true to myself. Yeah, I think that what he is a mastermind of is crafting these lines that the government is so well associated with, you know, hope and hard work, helping middle class Canadians and those working hard to join it. You know, some of the best lines have really come from his whole thought process that, you know, the government should help low and middle class Canadians to the detriment of those who make more, of course.

And he has really put, he's breathed life into these slogans by crafting policies that some say are helpful to the middle class in this country. Of course, his detractors say that behind the sloganeering is really, you know, empty rhetoric. We'll be back in a second. Discover what millions around the world already have. Audible has Canada's largest library of audiobooks, including exclusive content curated by and for Canadians. Experience books in a whole new way, where stories are brought to life by powerful performances from renowned actors and narrators. With the free Audible app, you can listen anytime, anywhere,

whether you're at home, in the car, or out on a jog. The first 30 days of the Audible membership are free, including a free book. So I know that Jerry Butts is also a controversial figure in Ottawa. What do people say about him as a person? Well, he can be a bit prickly to work with. So sources have told us over the years, he does take on a very strong leadership role, to put it politely. So it's either his way or the highway in some instances,

especially when it comes to personnel. Having said that, you know, he did command a lot of respect among the people around him. Obviously, they've worked for him for a number of years. They haven't really strayed far. But I know that there have been instances where people felt like he was too difficult to work with, that he might have suppressed the voices of opposition within the caucus itself, that there wasn't really a chance for liberal backbenchers,

liberal member of parliaments who don't sit in cabinet, to express their viewpoints publicly, to stray from the party line, to stray from what the prime minister was backing. There has been some suggestion, and that was because of Gerry's influence, that he didn't really allow dissent within the caucus to flourish, if you will, or to at least have an avenue, a public avenue of expression.

So I think that those are definitely valid criticisms. He might be a bit of, he might have ruled with an iron fist a little bit, if you will. He might deny that, of course, but that has been the suggestion of some people that we've spoken to over the last weeks, you know, as this scandal has developed. And that's really how we come back to this whole SNC-Lavalin scandal, because there's allegations that it was Jerry Butts and others around him, some of his deputies that pressured Jody Wilson-Raybould, the former justice minister, to reach this agreement with SNC-Lavalin to sign a DPA, Deferred Prosecution Agreement, to help them avoid some of the criminal charges. And the reason why he's stepping back today is because so many things in that office

are so closely associated with him. So now that we're, you know, engulfed in this political problem, it's natural for all of his enemies to pin it on him, you know, engulfed in this political problem, it's natural for all of his enemies to pin it on him, you know, to pin it on Jerry Butts personally, whether that's true or not. And we haven't really, we haven't really, you know, got to the bottom of all that. But in his statement today, he was very clear. Very clear. Categorically, you know, I had no, I was not involved even remotely in this sort of thing. I did not pressure Jody Wilson-Raybould to make a decision on the SNC-Lavalin file. And so here's a question I have. If he's so clear about the fact that he did not pressure the attorney general to enter into this DPA, which is essentially a plea deal of sorts

that would stop SNC Lavelin from having to proceed with a criminal prosecution, from having to proceed with a criminal prosecution. If he's so certain that he didn't do this, then why resign? Well, I'm not certain that there isn't something else coming, frankly. There might be another development to this scandal. Things are unfolding rapidly here. So he might be trying to get out front of some other story that might be coming from another outlet that might pin something on him. Who's to say? I don't really know for sure.

But it's also just a way of avoiding some political damage. It's damage control. Because as I said, he's so closely associated with all the actions of this office that if he resigns, it's an attempt to wipe the slate clean. Perhaps by him taking a step back, the political opposition will lose some of its ammunition against the Prime Minister and against some of the other people in the Prime Minister's office. Because the Conservative opposition in particular have loved to take on Jerry Butts. Ever since Jerry Butts became sort of a name on social media, taking his opponents to task. But his principal secretary, Gerald Butts, tweeted that any and all who criticized his boss were Nazis. Going hard. Very hard. He is very active on Twitter. So I think he's trying to do some cleanup.

He's trying to save the Prime Minister by taking himself out of the equation. And so I want to pick up on something you said about the possibility that his resignation could wipe the slate clean here. Do you think that that's actually what's going to happen? The House of Commons Justice Committee actually meets here in Ottawa today in camera behind closed doors. They're going to draw up a witness list to decide who they're going to haul in front of this committee to ask questions of this matter. And the opposition has been saying for weeks that they want Jerry Butts to be on that list. So I don't think it goes away. And I think it actually just starts to get a bit, it starts to grow a bit, frankly, in terms of the political action that is on this file.

Because Parliament's sitting again for the next few weeks. And you can better believe the opposition is going to be standing up every single day in question period, grilling the Prime Minister, asking him what exactly he knew went down in his office on this matter. And of course, Jody Wilson-Raybould, she's now consulting with a Supreme Court justice, a former Supreme Court justice, to see about what she is allowed to say, because currently she said that she can't speak because of solicitor client privilege. Are there any indications that you're hearing that that's going to change, that she could come forward and make some sort of public statement in the next short while?

Well, it's not often that when someone is facing legal challenges, they hire a former Supreme Court justice to represent them. So that tells you how much this scandal could grow and how we really are entering the next phase of all this. She obviously has questions about solicitor-client privilege. She has questions about what she can and cannot say as a former Attorney General of Canada, which is a role entirely separate, really, from being the Justice Minister because she was the country's top lawyer, represented nominally the government in all legal prosecutions. So she wants to get some clarity, I'm sure, from someone who knows the law very well. But she will have to get to the bottom of all that before she can say anything, because she does risk disbarment, you know, if she

does break that solicitor-client privilege. But it's not clear it's to her alone to make these decisions. The prime minister, from legal experts that I've been speaking to over the last couple weeks have said, really, he could waive that solicitor client privilege himself and allow her to speak truthfully and openly and freely about what actually went down. So it really takes two tracks here. Either she decides that she has to speak because she needs to protect the institutions that she represented for the better part of three years, or the Prime Minister will make that call and allow her to speak publicly. We're not really sure which way it's going to go. But it is morphing into really a scandal that is encompassing all of government. It's taken down now a senior cabinet minister and the Prime Minister's right hand man. And how has the

Prime Minister responded to all of this? So we haven't heard him speak yet, at least not on tape. But he did tweet earlier today, thanking Jerry Butts for his service to the government, to the country, saying that he served with integrity, sage advice and devotion. Not the warmest of goodbyes, I would say, but certainly not throwing him under the bus by any means. He does say, though, he wants to thank him for his continued friendship. though he wants to thank him for his continued friendship. And one thing I'm curious about, curious to get your thoughts on, do you think that this one controversy is what led to his resignation?

Or are there other reasons that could have led to Jerry Butt's resignation? Is it possible that this is a cumulative thing? I don't think anything was as damaging as this SNC-Lavalin affair. Of course, there was, you know, the vacation to the private island with the Aga Khan. There was the ill-fated trip to India. There were things that obviously have been a bit salacious, have been a bit scandalous, but nothing that has encompassed the inner circle as much as this affair. And I think that he would not have resigned if it were those scandals. Of course, he didn't resign when it was those scandals. But this is more encompassing. This is more damaging because it's claimed a senior cabinet minister because they have been unable to totally and absolutely refute what was published in the Globe and Mail. And it's been going on now for a couple weeks. And I think that the damage has really seeped into Parliament itself, because we have that

Justice Committee that has been convened, as I mentioned before, that could drag on for weeks. We have the Ethics Commissioner who's now investigating the Prime Minister personally for his involvement in the SNC-Lavalin affair. So these things have really snowballed, if you will, over the last weeks. So I think Jerry Butts, as I said, he's trying to wipe the slate clean. He's trying to reset what's going on there, take some of the heat off the prime minister and get back to business. JP, thank you so much. Thank you.

So what happens next? Well, Justin Trudeau is going to need to replace Gerald Butts. And we don't know yet who's going to get that high-ranking job. Meanwhile, it doesn't look like the SNC-Lavalin scandal is dying down anytime soon. The NDP is officially calling for a public inquiry. To get to the bottom of what's happened. is officially calling for a public inquiry. To get to the bottom of what's happened. And conservative leader Andrew Scheer is calling on the Senate to open an investigation.

That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.