Front Burner - Trump versus Biden: The final debate

Episode Date: October 23, 2020

With election day less than two weeks away, presidential candidates Donald Trump and Joe Biden debated for the second and final time on Thursday. CBC Washington correspondent Susan Ormiston discusses what happened and what it could mean for election day.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. Good evening from Belmont University in Nashville, Tennessee. I'm Kristen Welker of NBC News, and I welcome you to the final 2020 presidential debate between President Donald J. Trump and former Vice President Joe Biden.

For more than 40 million people, last night's debate didn't make a difference because they've already voted. But for millions more, it was the last chance to see presidential candidates Donald Trump and Joe Biden debate some issues that are very important to their lives. Coronavirus, jobs and race in America. My colleague in Washington, Susan Ormiston is here and with less than two weeks to go before the election in the U.S., we'll go through what happened. This is FrontBurner. Susan, hi. Hi there. Thank you so much for joining me tonight at the very early hour of 1230 a.m. Yeah, long day for all of us.

Yes. But I wanted to start here because the last debate that we watched was described as such a mess, right? This one felt a bit different. How so? It was more than a mess. And it was more than different. It was completely different. I think it's fair to say Americans got the debate that they perhaps were looking for. The first debate was almost a barroom brawl. Nobody got much out of it. And it hurt. Donald Trump's poll numbers dropped and stayed dropped throughout his COVID-19 diagnosis. And he is still trailing Joe Biden. So he really needed this debate in order to make an appeal to Americans. And his advisors would have been

feeling better tonight after his performance, that he stayed on message, he was more disciplined, he, you know, was a bit calmer, and that the mute buttons, which the commission put in, imagine muting Donald Trump, but they worked. The moderator was careful to keep everybody on track. They had time to express their thoughts without interruption. And then there was a free for all where they were able to respond to each other. So it was a good debate. There were significant issues discussed and people got to hear them. Let's dive into what they talked about. The first subject was unsurprisingly the coronavirus. How did Trump defend his record on that virus? You know, I was taken aback a little bit how vigorously he

tried to convince Americans that we're out of it, that this thing is going away, that a vaccine will be ready in a couple of weeks, and that the country's turning the corner. You also said a vaccine will be coming within weeks. Yes. Is that a guarantee? No, it's not a guarantee, but it will be by the end of the year. But I think it has a good chance. There are two companies, I think, within a matter of weeks, and it will be distributed very quickly. It's really hard to square that with the facts, where in the last couple of weeks, we've seen over 60,000 new cases of coronavirus a day in America. And that is rising. It's 30% higher than it was two weeks ago. And so Biden really leaned in on that.

He was very sharp, sharpened his attack on President Trump on coronavirus, saying that this was the guy who promised it would be gone by Easter or by summer, that advised injecting bleach into your veins. This is the guy that's now telling us it's over. And Joe Biden painted a dark picture. He, in fact, said it's going to be a dark winter and we have to deal with this. The president said we're learning to live with it. And Joe Biden said we're learning to die with it. 220,000 Americans dead. You hear nothing else I say tonight.

Hear this. Anyone who's responsible for not taking control. In fact, not saying I'm I take no responsibility initially. In fact, not saying I take no responsibility initially. Anyone who's responsible for that many deaths should not remain as president of the United States of America. It really did strike me there were two completely different pictures painted here about, you know, the same scenario that Americans are living through. It did seem like Joe Biden got in his most effective or some of his most effective jabs during this section of the debate. Would you agree?

There's a reason why he's bringing up all this malarkey. There's a reason for it. He doesn't want to talk about the substantive issues. It's not about his family and my family. It's about your family. And your family's hurting badly. I would say he did. about his family and my family. It's about your family and your family's hurting badly. I would say he did. And I would say that President Trump also solidified his approach, which does play well with his supporters. I've been on the trail with the Trump campaign quite

a bit in the last few weeks. And this idea that we don't shut down the country, that we don't need to wear masks all the time, and that we're coming out of this, this is very popular amongst not just his base, but amongst Republicans who want to see a way out of this. So one thing that stood out for me, which was quite stark, was the president was advocating opening up all of the schools, getting kids back in school. And of course, everybody wants that. But he said the transmission between teachers and students is very, very low. And Biden shot back a really caustic remark. He said, all you teachers out there, not that many of you are going to die. So don't worry about it. So don't worry about it. Come on. It was really telling and very pointed. Moving on to the national security portion of the

debate, the initial question was about election meddling, but then it just very quickly got into these accusations of corruption, each candidate accusing the other of being corrupt. And Trump had already alluded to this Biden corruption earlier. What exactly is Trump trying to accuse Biden of here? And I know this can get a little complicated. Yeah, I mean, I think it's important to just put this in context, because the details are very windy. What Donald Trump needed to do tonight was to give voters a reason not to vote for Joe Biden. He's trailing Biden.

So he was looking at a way to raise suspicions about Joe Biden. And he did that in several ways. And one of them was to say, Joe Biden, you're corrupt. I don't make money from China. You do. I don't make money from Ukraine. You do. I don't make money from Ukraine. You do. I don't make money from Russia. You made three and a half million dollars, Joe, and your son gave you. They even have a statement that we have to give 10 percent to the big man. You're the big man, I think. I don't know. Maybe you're not, but you're the big man, I think.

Your son said we have to give 10 percent to the big man. Joe, what's that all about? It's terrible. talking point that they want to land so that people will look at Joe Biden and say, not so sure. There's these, you know, talk about his son, Hunter Biden, making money in Ukraine, and there's talk about close ties with Biden and China. There's no real strict, heavy evidence that has been put forward there, but that's what Trump is trying to do. And of course, then it became a sort of tit for tat where both of them said, Biden shot back quite definitively, I have not made one penny on any foreign government.

I have not taken a penny from any foreign source ever in my life. We learned that this president paid 50 times the tax in China, has a secret bank account with China, does business in China. And in fact, is talking about me taking money. I have not taken a single penny from any country whatsoever, ever. And you've made a lot of money, Donald Trump, with your businesses in foreign countries. And Trump came back with, yes, I have.

I'm a businessman. I do business, but not the corrupt way you do. So it was a lot of back and forth on that. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years.

I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. One really stark moment to me was when both presidential candidates started talking about family separation at the border. Kristen, they did it. We changed the policy. Your response to that? We did not separate.

They built the cages. Who built the cages, Joe response to that? We did not separate the- Who built the cages, Joe? Let's talk about what we're talking about. Who built the cages, Joe? Let's talk about what we're talking about. What happened? Parents were ripped, their kids were ripped from their arms and separated. And now they cannot find over 500 sets of those parents, and those kids are alone.

Nowhere to go. It's criminal. There was reporting this week about more than 500 kids who were intentionally separated from their families. This was a Trump policy designed to discourage people from coming to the United States. And now their parents can't be found. All these kids, their parents can't be found. The news has been so dizzying that this issue seemed to have fallen off the radar. It was so jarring for me to be reminded of it tonight. Yeah, I think that you're quite right that this is an issue that we heard so much about around that time. And yet the whole immigration story, which, you know, was one of Trump's big tenants

the last time we went to the polls in 2016, has not been a huge issue, at least not nationally. You know, understandably, it's been trumped by coronavirus, as most everything has. But I think it's come up in part for political reasons as well, because the Latino vote in Texas and Arizona and Florida, battleground states that both these candidates want to win is very important. And both were trying to land some or, you know, trying to get some territory there so that those voters would look at them and say, that's the guy for me. And I think that's partly why we heard it tonight, having not heard about it at all in the months leading up to this campaign.

Let's talk about the segment on race in America. The last debate was pretty shocking with Trump refusing to condemn white supremacy and telling the Proud Boys to stand back and stand by. What do you want to call them? Give me a name. Give me a name. White supremacists and white supremacists. Proud Boys. What do you want to call him? Give me a name. Give me a name. White supremacist and right supremacist. White supremacist and right supremacist. Stand back and stand by, but I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what. Did you hear anything different this time around?

I didn't. This is an important debate, obviously, and very painful on the heels of what we saw this summer and really coming out of the last debate, as you mentioned, where the president refused to separate himself from groups like that, saying stand by, which he was roundly criticized for. I think that we didn't hear much different. What struck me was something the president said, and he said, he looked out in the room and he said, I can't even see who's out here, but I am the least racist person in this room. Nobody has done more for the black community than Donald Trump.

And if you look, with the exception of Abraham Lincoln, possible exception, but the exception of Abraham Lincoln, nobody has done what I've done. Criminal justice reform. And he repeated that over and over again, opening himself up there for Joe Biden to climb all over him, repeating to voters, in fact, the ways that many believe he has had racist intents, including from the moment he came down the escalator in New York, calling Mexicans rapists. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And then the white supremacist links, those types of things. And he laid himself open for Biden to repeat all those things again. So it was an interesting moment. But, you know, Donald Trump is trying to not only gain more voters or at least convince voters who are on the sidelines a bit to come to him, but he's trying to make sure that his base turns out, Jamie, and that is very much part of his appeal to his base.

Right. You know, it was interesting. He also did go after Biden for his record on the 1994 crime bill. When he did such harm to the black community and they were called and he called them super predators. And he said that he said it's super, and they have never lived that down. 1994, your crime bill, the super predators. And so how did Biden defend himself there? It is, I think, a vulnerability for Joe Biden in several ways. I mean, he is linked to that era of what was called then super predators of young black men in that time.

It was very, very injurious to those communities. And he's had to deal with that and deal with his relationship with African-American voters. American voters. So he tried to turn it back again on Trump in terms of Trump's allegation that he's done more than any other president for black voters. I mean, I've heard on the trail myself, African Americans saying that's simply not true, but he continues to say that. And again, But he continues to say that. And again, this is about the election and who will support these men. Both of them want to get that African-American vote. So this crime bill, I mean, I remember in Delaware a couple of months ago, Jamie, a black man and I were talking. He was a first time voter and he said that he really had trouble with that crime bill history. And so he wasn't sure which way he was going to go on that. So it's a sensitive area for Biden. And Trump landed some blows in that part of the debate. So, Susan, I have to ask, you know, we're less than two weeks out from this U.S. election. Trump is trailing nationally in the polls. Did he do anything tonight that might win anyone other than his devoted base over to his side? I think his team would say candidly that Donald Trump did what he

had to do tonight, which is reverse what he did the first debate. That was critical. There was a lot of criticism of how that debate ended up, but also of Donald Trump's performance, his aggression, his rudeness, and really both of them, you know, Joe Biden saying, shut up, man, there was none of that tonight. So I think both candidates needed to restore that balance. And there's always a question with Donald Trump, can he listen to his advisors? Can he be disciplined? And I think what people saw tonight was that, yes, he did listen to his advisors. He's in a tight spot in this election now. And so he may have stopped the bleeding, if you will, if people were still put off by that approach in the first debate.

So that's really important. It's worth remembering, as you noted at the beginning, that over a third of Americans have already voted, and that pollsters will tell us that there are very few real undecided voters there. This country is deeply cleaved. And now it's a question of getting out the vote. So I think Trump's performance tonight may have assured people who want to continue to support him that he's the guy, that he's still the president, that he's a strong man, and he's worth another four years. And I think for Joe Biden, what his advisors hoped was that he would do no harm, that there would be no gaffes, that there would be no major stumbles. And I think in that case,

he probably survived well on that score as well. It's hard to know, though, whether these debates actually change a lot of views. It's late in the game. Many people say it's late in this race for Trump to catch up to Joe Biden. But I will say, having been out on the trail quite a bit in the last month, that this election is still quite tight in those battleground states. The advantage that Joe Biden has is within the margin of error in many of them. And it's still not clear that Joe Biden will win and certainly would win with the kind of double digit lead that he has now. OK, well, lots for us to look out for in the coming weeks, just under two short weeks. I can't believe that we're already here.

I know. So we look forward to talking to you again soon. Yeah, it's incredible. It'll be quite a ride still every day. Great. Thank you so much, Susan. You're welcome. Okay, so that is all for today. FrontBurner is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcasts.

The show is produced this week by Imogen Burchard, Elaine Chao, Allie Janes, and Shannon Higgins. Derek VanderWijk did our sound design with help from Matt Cameron. Our intern is Ashley Fraser. Our music is by Joseph Chavison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of FrontBurner is Nick McCabe-Locos. And I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening this week and talk to you all on Monday.

For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.