Front Burner - Undecided voters grill leaders face to face

Episode Date: September 17, 2021

The CBC’s senior political correspondent Rosemary Barton on how the national federal party leaders did on tough questions from undecided Canadian voters.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. Over the past two days, we took you through the major parties' platforms. And today, you're going to hear from the leaders themselves. My colleague, CBC's senior politics correspondent, Rosemary Barton,

recently sat down with Justin Trudeau, Erin O'Toole, Jagmeet Singh, and Annamie Paul. She shared the floor with a bunch of undecided voters too, and they had lots of questions about the many issues they're grappling with in their daily lives. Questions about rising inequality and affordability, about childcare, about hate and intolerance. Today, Rosie is here to talk about those sit-downs and some of the big takeaways. Hi, Rosie. Thank you so much for making the time to come on to the podcast. I know it is a very busy week for you. Happy to talk to you, Jamie, and everybody else too. Okay. So you fielded questions from voters across the country who had big questions they wanted to put to the leaders of the major parties. And of course, of course,

you had some questions yourself. So let's start with a question from a new dad to twins in Toronto, Jason Hawkins. So being new parents is amazing. My wife and I are loving every moment of it. His question was for conservative leader Aaron O'Toole. Less lovable, however, is the reality that next September, when her maternity leave is over, we are looking at a daycare bill in Toronto of upwards of $3,200 a month. That's not manageable for our family, and I can't imagine that being manageable for most Canadian families. for our family, and I can't imagine that being manageable for most Canadian families. And it might very well mean that one of us is not able to return to the workforce next year.

So, Mr. O'Toole, what I'd like to hear from you is concrete solutions that your party is going to bring forward to deal with the growing cost of child care, particularly... We touched a bit on Aaron O'Toole's child care plan on Wednesday's episode, but how did O'Toole respond to this question from a new dad who's feeling really squeezed? Well, first off, Jason, congratulations. I have two children. Yeah, I mean, what's so interesting about this format is that the leaders know sort of the general topic. They don't know how the question's going to go. And the voters are all, I should tell you guys, leaning towards voting towards the leaders that we've chosen. Like it's possible that they will vote for them. So they're hoping to get a real answer to convince them. And you could really feel that from this voter, from Jason Hawkins.

He, as you said, has twins. He and his wife are high school teachers. They really don't know how they're both going to be able to afford child care and go back to work. And his question was a good one, was how does what you're putting on the table, is that going to actually help me? What we're offering with our approach is a way to try and help all families through the tax system. And yes, the Conservative leader has a plan with a tax credit to cover up to 75% of costs. I think that's about $6,000 when it maxes out. But it's also really targeted at that maximum amount to lower income families. Again, I'm kind of hoping to know what your definition of the low income bracket is. Where is your cutoff for low income families? It would be the folks that are

in the lowest income tax bracket, which I don't think in your case as a teacher you would be, Jason. I'm just being honest with you. What we're doing is trying to help. And did you get the sense that Jason was satisfied by the answers that he got from Aaron on that front? So I should probably also admit that we do go back to the voters and we ask them, were you satisfied? Do you think you'll vote for the leader? In this case, it seems like Jason is leaning towards voting for Mr. O'Toole. But I'm not sure that's because the answer satisfied him so much as there were other things that mattered to him as well. It was clear that this was part of what's driving Jason to the polls. It's part of his ballot box decision, but it's not the only thing. But yeah, no, I don't think he was satisfied with the answer.

I think he was kind of disappointed, frankly. OK, so you also heard a question from an undecided voter in Edmonton named Grace Pang about how O'Toole as a leader fits into his party. Given that your party and some of its members have, in some cases in the past, taken some very different positions, how will you, if you form government, handle party or even caucus members who may feel your views aren't conservative enough? And so talk to me about how O'Toole tackled Grace's question. Yeah, it's kind of the question for Mr. O'Toole throughout this whole election. So Grace really hit the nail on the head. You know, he really made the point that he has a track record, essentially, of being pro-LGBTQ, that he has previously spoken on trans rights in the House,

that he did come out ahead of time to put something in the way of a carbon tax on the table, even though he knew that would make him unpopular inside his own party. One of my first votes in my first four or five months was on extending human rights protections to gender identity and the trans community. And I was the first Conservative to stand and vote in favour of an NDP bill on that issue because I said I'm in politics to stand up for all rights, for all Canadians. The problem, of course, is that while all those things are true,

there are also examples of when Mr O'Toole has not been, you know, maybe the leader that he should have been on progressive issues. Conversion therapy would be the primary one where a majority of conservative MPs voted against the move to ban that. On the issue of banning conversion therapy, there was another undecided voter that really challenged him on that, right? Taylor Lackrist.

Hi, my name is Taylor. I'm a 40-year-old transgender woman from Winnipeg, Manitoba. I'm an undecided voter because I want to know more about what is going to be done to end bigotry and hate-based abuse. It was actually probably the most emotional exchange I saw in the face-to-faces. Listen, I don't know if you understand my lived experience, but I can tell you point blank that bigotry and transphobia are directly related to my life expectancy. Like what the other values of mine really matter when there's a non-zero and

escalating probability of being a victim of a violent and possibly fatal assault. So aside from your personal beliefs with your party, how would you ensure that everybody agrees that we all have a right and we all are valid? Yeah, it was. And Taylor had some hard questions. And the reason I like those questions were they weren't just about Taylor as a trans woman or the LGBTQ community. She was really also pointing to a broader question around discrimination and racism. Those are not words that are mentioned in the Conservative platform.

That seems strange to me. We have issues of systemic racism in this country. Do you believe we have issues of systemic racism that we need to deal with? And if you do, why wouldn't you put it in your platform? We have found systemic racism in our justice system, particularly with criminal sentencing. And about eight to nine months ago,

our party worked on a justice committee study in public safety on that issue. There should never be a discriminatory or a racist practice that sees higher incarceration rates for people of colour or Indigenous Canadians. And we worked on that finding. And that's how we will conduct ourselves. That could be maybe not a satisfying answer for people who are in minority groups

or, you know, diverse groups who were looking for perhaps more recognition that he would have to be a champion for some of those causes, too. OK, let's move on to Justin Trudeau. So, Liberal leader Justin Trudeau, we heard from Ty Simpson in Bowmanville, Ontario, and he wanted to ask about economic inequality. And he talked about how for mornings over the past year and a half, he would watch Trudeau telling Canadians to stay home for their safety and the safety of their families. Then I would leave my home and go to work at a job where I interacted with dozens of people on a daily basis, and which paid me, at the best of times, only a couple of hundred dollars more per month than I would have received by staying home and

collecting the CERB benefit. One interesting point that Ty really wanted to talk about was that just because a company is doing well doesn't mean its workers are doing well. The stock price of the company that I work for is at a historic high. And despite this, there have been widespread cuts to the hours given to the part-time employees, which make up a good percentage of their workforce, even though those are the same people who worked through the pandemic and allowed them to make that money. And how did Trudeau take that point? How did he respond to that?

Yeah, I mean, it allowed him to make the point that trickle-down economics don't work. That's why we are making sure that people are paying their fair share and, quite frankly, making sure we are protecting workers in the gig economy. And he said that they will work harder to do a better job to make sure that large employers like that have to share wealth. What does that actually mean for someone like Ty? I don't know that he got that answer. Sure, all governments work with labor movements to try and make sure those kinds of more precarious jobs and work are protected. One of the things that the Liberals have talked about, although Justin Trudeau didn't

necessarily mention it there, was the paid sick days, right? They've now promised 10 paid sick days for federal workers and an ability to convene the provinces to try and make sure that workers like Ty and others in these kinds of jobs would have better protection for sick days. I have to say, Ty seemed, you know, he was really looking, I think, for a bigger answer, maybe a better answer there from the Liberal leader.

And just on that issue of paid sick days, I know you then also press the Liberal leader and ask him, like, why just announce the 10 paid sick days now when, you know, we're over a year into the pandemic. There was another voter whose question I want to talk about, and that's Pooja Begri. when, you know, we're what, over a year into the pandemic. There was another voter whose question I want to talk about, and that's Pooja Begri in Toronto, who recently had a racist encounter at a grocery store. A complete stranger came up to me and told me to go back to my country. And then I continued to face a tirade of racist remarks while everyone remained silent and no one stepped in to help. She also

brought up the horrifying recent hate crime in London, Ontario, where a Muslim family was killed, run over by a driver when they were out for a walk. And so it's very perplexing to me to understand, you know, regular Canadians like me going about our daily lives can't even go out on a walk or go to the grocery store without fearing for our safety. So what I want to know is, what do you as a leader plan to do to ensure that Canadians from all walks of life feel safe and protected? It's obviously such an important question to so many. And how did Trudeau answer it? And let me start by saying I am so sorry for what you had to go through. And unfortunately, what millions of Canadians continue to face.

You know, this plays into sort of what the Liberal leader does well and that's to express empathy and emotion and compassion for people. He did all those things. Yeah, no, thank you. I really do appreciate, you know, your empathy and I can tell you're very sincere but I want to hear more about what policies I can expect from your government. But when it came to the specifics of what he would do or what the follow through was,

I'm not sure that that would have satisfied her. Yeah, yeah. She also brought up that the angry protests that Trudeau has encountered at a number of his campaign events. And Rosie, you know, I wonder if you could tell me about how he addressed her concerns and also what else he had to say about his response to these protests. But because you also asked him about this, I thought this was a really interesting exchange. And are you not worried that you are missing an opportunity to educate them? First of all, I will not meet anger with anger. I will try to be compassionate. Yeah, I mean, this has been sort of some of the difficult,

most difficult moments for the Liberal leader during the campaign. And going from responding, again, with empathy to the people that came out and forced him to cancel a rally, to then going to a place where he used these people, these protesters that were saying, you know, terrible things and sometimes threatening things towards the liberal leader. He then sort of used them as a political wedge, as a bit of division between him and specifically the Conservative leader.

So I wanted to push him on whether he thought that was helpful. But are there some people you have to give up on? Some people it's just not going to happen. There's no convincing them. Some people you need to protect other Canadians from. And, you know, that may be OK to say because most Canadians, the vast majority of Canadians are double vaxxed and happy to be vaccinated. But it does sort of leave you with the question about what you do if you have to govern for everyone. And I don't know.

You know, I think that that was kind of a revealing moment as well. on CBC Gem, brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples.

Okay, let's move on to Annamie Paul, Green leader. We know the Greens, of course, have ambitious climate goals. But what is kind of surprising, perhaps, is they've said that legitimate reasons for refusing vaccination in the pandemic include cultural reasons. And that people with legitimate reasons for not getting vaccinated should be accommodated. And Paul was asked about her stance on vaccines by a longtime Green voter, Jennifer Brule, who drew this straight line between the pandemic and climate change. With the climate changing, there's probably, as the scientists say, maybe going to be more pandemics and vaccines are going to be very, very important. So I'm just confused as to how we could allow just some parties, members of parliament, not want to get the vaccine, but also be leaders.

And ask the leader how her and her party's commitment to climate change squares with their current stance on vaccines. And tell me about that interaction between Jennifer and Ms. Paul. Yeah, she was asked it by more than one voter, interestingly. So, I mean, it's surprising and it's not surprising. There is an element to the Green Party that is really about freedom and freedom of choice. And it is not a party that is heavy handed and making sure everyone is on the same page. And that's sort of reflected in this position. So I would say there's two things that Ms. Paul there said that were interesting. First of all, that yes, they

haven't endorsed a vaccine passport because of what I said there, this need to have free choice and a desire not to make this political, unlike the Liberal leader. But the other part of her answer is the idea that there are communities that still do not have a real trustful relationship with the health sector or have had past experiences that have left them, you know, with no trust in the health sector. These are legacies that we have to confront. We have to address. We have to educate people. And then I believe that really most of that will resolve itself.

But we have not done that work. There was also some surprising vulnerability from Paul about her future. There had been times that I had thought of stepping down. One of the reasons that I'm here is that the election came when it did. And I don't feel we should have had it, but it did. I wonder, in your history covering politics, how often have you seen someone basically admit on the campaign trail that they're sort of struggling to be there, basically?

Yeah, no, never. And certainly not publicly. You know, you might get the impression, and I followed enough liberal leaders in particular, who it was going to be a crash and burn election for them, a one-time thing. I mean, you can sometimes see a leader fading away, right? Because it just becomes apparent that they're not going to win and that this is probably the end of things. That's not what this is. This is a leader who, and I know you've talked about it on your pod before, under an immense amount of stress and turmoil inside her own party. But I really did get a very strong feeling of defeat, I would say, from Ms. Paul. Not that she doesn't care about her party and the issues, but that this has been probably a lot more than she expected and anticipated

because of what happened inside her own party. And if she doesn't win that seat, you know, I don't know what happens next. let's move on to Jagmeet Singh new democrat leader I'll touch very quickly on on what I thought was kind of an entertaining exchange uh between you and and saying where you basically asked him like how is he going to tax the rich as much as he wants to tax them? Because basically there's this very strong-held belief that the rich are not going to let that happen, that they will essentially move their money elsewhere. And very briefly, what did you make of Singh's response there?

You know, it was funny at one point, because the Zoom audience wanted to know, who are you talking about? We're talking about the 44 billionaires in Canada that earned $78 billion plus during the pandemic. We're talking about fortunes of over $10 million that will tax 1% on everything above $10 million. And of course, it was nobody that was on that call or in that room. It's really like billionaires. The Thompsons. That's right.

Really rich people. So it's probably no one on the Zoom call and not me either. Let's ask a couple more questions. That's what I should have said it's probably no one on the Zoom call and not me either. Let's ask a couple more questions. That's what I should have said. It's no one on the Zoom call. You know, are you going after the folks with the two-car garage and a Peloton? I'm like, no, that's not you.

You're right. I'm talking about the super. A lot of people have analyzed this idea as a policy idea. It sounds like a great idea. But as you point out, there are places where they've tried it in France, for instance, and the rich people just pack up all their Mercedes and Porsches and they move to a different country where they don't have it. So it is it's an interesting, provocative idea. But I don't know that Mr. Singh was able to explain exactly how it would work and fund his hundreds of billions of dollars of promises. Yeah, actually, Mr. President Biden has just put out a plan. And if

you look at his plan, it's very similar to ours. It shows that there are other people out there that think this is achievable. And then just final question for today. You also had another really interesting exchange with Jagmeet Singh about the Trans Mountain Pipeline. He said he was against its purchase. And you asked him what he'd do with it. The question is, you're the prime minister. The next day, what are you doing with the pipeline? Because it's purchased, Canadians own it, and it's being expanded. What are you doing with it?

He just, like, he would not answer this question, right? No, and it's because I don't think he has an answer. I'm opposed to it. I would have never bought it in the first place. Mr. Trudeau bought it and put us in this position. I would assess that asset and make the best decision for Canadians. Trudeau bought it and put us in this position. I would assess that asset and make the best decision for Canadians. What does that mean? What does that mean, Mr. Singh?

What Canadians should know is what I want to do. What I want to do is put our money towards renewable energy. I believe the future has to be one where we're investing in what's renewable and what's sustainable. That's what we should do. This is not a clear answer. He can't even define or explain the criteria that he would look at in order to determine what should happen to it.

And given that Canadian taxpayers own it, it seems to me that someone who wants the job to be prime minister should have a clearer answer around that. But I tried many, many, many times to get an answer and there just isn't one. Before we wrap up today, I just wonder, you know, having sat through all these face-to-faces and having been able to have all of these conversations with these voters, what sort of is your big takeaway here? What did all of this tell you maybe about the voters? Yeah, I mean, I probably don't get enough exposure to voters and I'm overly exposed to politicians. So it's good for me to get a chance to hear from Canadians. Canadians. This is what I would say, that sometimes we in the media, well, me in the Ottawa bubble,

assume that Canadians aren't paying attention or that they're not interested in an election because it's summertime and they've got life going on. I think that I probably underestimate how much Canadians care about issues and their country and things that affect them. All of those voters had really, really smart questions. And whether they got answers or not, the fact that they wanted to be there and wanted to ask those questions of people, the people that, you know, could be prime minister or at least could be member of parliament, I left that feeling pretty encouraged about things. Okay. Well, that feels like a very good note to end this conversation on. Thank you so much. Thanks for making the time, Rosie.

My pleasure, Jamie. Thanks. All right, so before we go today, some news on Alberta's worsening COVID crisis. With 18,000 active COVID cases, the highest by far of any province, Premier Jason Kenney has declared a health emergency with new restrictions to try to get things under control. Kenney has apologized for his government's handling of the pandemic and their decision to reopen over the summer. We believed that we could prudently move away from addressing COVID as a pandemic and towards an endemic.

It is now clear that we were wrong. And for that, I apologize. Kenney has also reversed his earlier promise not to bring in vaccine passports. We'll have a lot more on the situation in Alberta on Monday. Front Burner is brought to you by CBC News and CBC Podcasts. The show is produced this week by Imogen Burchard, Simi Bassi, Katie Toth, Allie Janes, Ashley Fraser, Derek Vanderwyk, and Elaine Chao.

Elaine is actually leaving us for several months. She is going on maternity leave. Elaine, we are going to miss you so, so much, but we're so happy for you and wish you and your family the very, very best. Our sound design this week was by Matt Cameron, Austin Pomeroy, and Julia Whitman. Our music is by Joseph Chavison of Boombox Sound. The executive producer of Front Burner

is Nick McKay-Blocos. And I'm Jamie Poisson. Thank you so much for listening and we'll talk to you on Monday.