Front Burner - Understanding the latest Israel-Hamas fighting

Episode Date: May 13, 2021

As violence escalates between Israel and Hamas, we’re joined by journalist Irris Makler for a run-down of some of the major events of the past few days, as well as some context on the last month of tensions that led to this week’s eruption.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. As violence escalates between Israel and Hamas, I'm joined by journalist Iris Mackler from Jerusalem for the latest as well as some context

on the last month of tensions that led to this week's eruption. Hi, Iris. Thanks so much for making the time today. It's a pleasure. So you and I are the time today. It's a pleasure. So you and I are speaking at 9.30 a.m. Wednesday morning, Eastern Standard Time. And I just really need to note that because things are changing so quickly here. And firstly, Iris, how long has it been since the last time that things escalated this much and this fast between Israel and Hamas? that things escalated this much and this fast between Israel and Hamas? I'd go back seven years to the Gaza War of 2014,

which even people who weren't here at the time were watching that 50-day war, that biblical number, that 50-day war that never felt as if it were ending in that hot, hot summer of 2014. Written in the sky over Tel Aviv, the story of just how quickly and decisively this conflict has escalated. Hamas had warned of a major strike on Tel Aviv if Israel targeted residential buildings in Gaza. After telling the families who lived here to get out, Israel's military did just that. OK, and I want to get into some of the context behind these latest airstrikes and rocket attacks in a bit. But first, let's just talk about what has been happening over the last few days.

And so on Monday, the militant group Hamas, which controls the Gaza Strip, shot off seven rockets towards Jerusalem and more than 200 rockets towards southern Israel. One man was lightly wounded. This is something they had been warning about, something that they had been warning that they may do for about a week. And we'll get into that backstory in a moment. But after that happened, Israel retaliated with airstrikes that killed nine children and 15 other people in Gaza.

And that was really just the beginning. So what has happened since then? Since then, we've seen more rockets and more airstrikes. As of now, more than 50 Palestinians are dead, including 14 children, and at least six Israelis have died and dozens have been wounded on both sides, hundreds on the Palestinian side. We have seen, Israel says that Hamas and the other militant groups in Gaza, which basically includes Islamic Jihad, which is, works, it's an Iranian related militant group. So those two groups have fired something like a thousand

rockets, probably more now because there's another round just as we're speaking. And Israeli airstrikes have also leveled apartment buildings in Gaza. Can you tell me more about that? leveled apartment buildings in Gaza. Can you tell me more about that? So what we see when Israel targets buildings in the Gaza Strip, that the whole building collapses. And, you know, they do warn, they do give people in that building a warning. It's a very strange part of how things are done here. But we've seen two apartment buildings in Gaza leveled. And that is something that was last seen during the 2014 war. And the International Criminal Court is having a look at that. Right, right. And I know that Israel said that they're not a member of that court. They have rejected this probe.

Israel also says that it has killed high-ranking operatives of Hamas and militant group Islamic Jihad. Have they responded here? Yes. So Israel has this afternoon, my time, this morning, your time, has just said that it killed four high-level operatives. There was an attack on a car, for example. That's usually a sign that Israel has intelligence

about who's in that car. And that was later confirmed also to be, I think, an Islamic jihad operative. Okay. And I also understand that the unrest has spread across Israel itself, right? Outbreaks of communal violence and in mixed Jewish Arab neighborhoods and communities. What we saw last night was actual clashes between people who live in the same town, in the same street,

fighting with one another and in the town of Lod, which is not far from Tel Aviv. There were, it was like a war zone, you know, rioting, burning cars, buses, a synagogue was burnt. It was quite an extraordinary scene and Israel has declared a state of emergency, a local state of emergency in that town. So that is some of what's been going on in the last few days. But Iris, you know, you talked about the rockets that have been landing in Israel. Normally, Israel's Iron Dome defense system manages to intercept rockets and artillery. And Israel says the system has a 90% success rate.

But we've seen at least six Israelis killed and dozens wounded at this point by rockets from Gaza. And I should point out, you know, as you talked about, that is still a lot less casualties than in Gaza. But what is happening here that so many rockets seem to be getting through the Iron Dome? I don't think that so many rockets are actually getting through. There was a malfunction, reportedly, a malfunction on Monday, and that was two women died in the attacks when there was a malfunction on the Iron Dome at that time. And I think that gives you a sense of how well it actually is working. It's just that there are so many rockets coming in, you know, more than, well, let's talk about, let's say a thousand. In all of the Gaza War of 2014, I think there were 4,000 rockets in seven weeks. And now within less than 72 hours, there have been 1,000.

So it's a very high number. Wow. Wow. What has Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who I should note is right now the caretaker prime minister. What has he said about the fighting? Has he shown interest in de-escalating the conflict here? So at the moment, what Benjamin Netanyahu is doing is talking tough,

perhaps in that Middle Eastern way, the way Hamas is talking tough too. And so there's no talk of de-escalation yet. No. We are at the height of a campaign. We targeted their military commanders. We hit many of their key targets and we will further intensify the power of our attacks. Hamas will be getting blows it will not expect. Right, right. You know, I know he has essentially vowed to expand the offensive, like essentially vowed to expand the offensive, but has said that this will take time. What is Hamas saying right now? Mixed messages. On one level, we're hearing that there have been a few tentative calls for a ceasefire.

Perhaps now is the time. But on the other hand, we've also heard from them that when Israel says, we are not de-escalating and we're going all the way, they say, well, so are we. Right. So I want to go back now and try to understand the context of how we got here. And I want to talk about some of the recent events in Jerusalem that precipitated the conflict that we're seeing this week really escalate. We probably need to break down a couple of different key things that have been causing Palestinians to protest in the city. things that have been causing Palestinians to protest in the city. And the first is around this long running legal case about potential evictions of Palestinians in this East Jerusalem

neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah. And can you explain to me what's happening there? It's a very, very long running court case. And these are not the first Palestinians threatened with eviction or actually to be evicted. These are people who were refugees from other parts of what was then British Mandatory Palestine in 1948. They ended up in what was then East Jerusalem ruled by Jordan. And Jordan and actually the United Nations in Jordan gave them these buildings which had previously belonged to Jews in East Jerusalem.

So the heirs of those Jews in East Jerusalem say, well, actually, this once belonged to us and we want it back. And they have successfully evicted a number of people from different houses in these areas that they once owned. And these cases go up and down the courts because there is a piece of legislation which you would have to say is discriminatory on any interpretation of it, because there's different rules for Jews who owned property before 1948 and different rules for Palestinians who owned property before 1948. Right, right. I understand no such law entitles Palestinians to do the same in West Jerusalem or other parts of Israel, right? That's right. Right, right. I understand no such law entitles Palestinians to do the same in West Jerusalem or other parts of Israel, right? That's right. So yes, it is a legal battle,

and the original owners or their heirs do have rights. But these aren't rights that are extended across the board, which is why the Palestinians are so upset about this. Jacob, you know this is not your house. Yes, but if I go, you don't go back. So what's the problem? Why are you yelling at me? I didn't do this. I didn't do this. It's easy to yell at me, but I didn't do this. You are stealing my house. And if I don't steal it, someone else is going to steal it.

No, no one... Okay, and I should note that in this case, the people who have launched this legal challenge to evict these eight Palestinian families are a settler organization, Nehalat Shimon, who bought the deeds from the Jewish heirs to the land. They're not the original heirs themselves. So right now, the UN has called for Israel to stop these evictions. It says that since Israel is an occupying power in East Jerusalem, these evictions could possibly amount to a war crime.

And so what is Israel's response to this? How do the Israelis justify this? It's simply property law. When the courts look at this case, they look at it in a black letter law way. They don't look at the larger issue. And I guess if the United Nations is addressing that, it's addressing it to the Israeli government, and not to the courts where where the issue now is. Okay. And I understand the Supreme Court hearing on this was postponed. Either way, though, it sounds like many Palestinians and human rights groups are concerned that the eviction of these families could also set a precedent throughout the area. So that's what's happening at Sheikh Jarrah. And meanwhile, throughout the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, there have been clashes in East Jerusalem,

mainly between Israeli police and Palestinian protesters. But there has also been violence between Palestinian and Jewish civilians, including some far right Jewish groups. There's a lot happening here, more than I think we can get into today. But one of the key sources of tension has been around Al-Aqsa Mosque. Tensions really seem to have come to a head between Friday and Monday. And can you tell me what happened at Al-Aqsa? So tensions have been inflamed in part because the Israeli government limited the number of people who could pray at the mosque

during Ramadan because of COVID. And as you noted, this is part of all these different tensions, including over Sheikh Jarrah, that have been escalating, I don't know, in the city since the beginning of Ramadan. On Friday night after prayers at the mosque, police say Palestinians threw bottles and rocks at them. So after that, police stormed the mosque, police say Palestinians threw bottles and rocks at them. So after that, police stormed the mosque compound and they fired rubber bullets and stun grenades.

More than 200 Palestinians were injured and 17 police as well. But they continued over the weekend and on Monday morning things escalated again. Police stormed the compound and fired rubber bullets and stun grenades inside the mosque itself. And the shock of that, the shock of seeing soldiers during Ramadan firing stun grenades, that footage went all around the world. There was a huge response in the Muslim world. And by Monday afternoon, something like 330 Palestinians had been injured and 250 were hospitalized and 21 police officers were also wounded. So that was a very pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization.

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Couples. All right, so we've talked about all of these threads that have really raised tensions in recent weeks. And meanwhile, during this time over in Gaza, Hamas had been issuing these warnings to Israel that if it didn't clear its security forces from al-Aqsa, that if it didn't stop the Sheikh Jarrah evictions, it would retaliate. And so as we've talked about on Monday, in the middle of all of these tensions

in Jerusalem, we see the raucous launched from Gaza, and we've gone over all the escalations since. There is already a lot to be concerned about today. And I know that you alluded to this a little bit earlier in our conversation, but Iris, what is the big concern in the coming days and weeks here? The big concern is that like in 2014, this doesn't end. The big concern is the nature of the Gaza Strip. It's small. It's crowded. It's full of very poor people who can't leave because there's an embargo.

So what that basically means that it's an open-air prison and they're being pounded from the sky. So if you're living in an open-air prison and the kind of bombs are falling, the amazing firepower that the Israeli army has, and Israel says it is trying to avoid civilian deaths, but I'd say, and we can see this from 2014, that they're almost unavoidable. So what you're really looking at is the potential

for a large number of people, first of all, to be terrified and terrified on both sides. There are people I could see when the rockets were heading towards Tel Aviv and everybody was down in their bomb shelters with their babies and their dogs. It's terrifying. So ordinary people on both sides are frightened. Greater numbers will die in the Gaza Strip because of its nature.

Yeah, something we're already seeing. Yeah, something we're already seeing. And because their medical care isn't as good and because they don't have bomb shelters in the buildings. But all of those factors mean that these people who've been pounded seven years ago would face that again. And that's a terrifying prospect. My neighborhood was attacked around seven to eight times. Oh, oh, sh**. They are bombing us.

Oh, sh**. But Fadi, is there anywhere safe to go? In fact, no. When you are living in Gaza Strip, you have no place to live or to evacuate. You know, I saw someone, I saw her on Twitter, someone who was filming one of the airstrikes and he was petrified, as well you might be, because you don't know they were very close to his building

and you don't know that you won't be a victim. Yeah. Really, really, really concerning and what's happening right now. Iris, thank you so much. No, it you so much. No, it's a pleasure. Okay, so since my conversation with Iris, the government of Canada has released a statement on this situation.

Minister of Foreign Affairs Marc Garneau called for immediate steps to end the violence, called Hamas rocket attacks unacceptable, and said that the violence around Al-Aqsa was also unacceptable. The statement also said that, quote, Canada remains gravely concerned by the continued expansion of settlements and by the demolitions and evictions, including the ongoing cases in Sheikh Jarrah. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.