Front Burner - Update show: New vaccine, election conspiracy, fisheries fight

Episode Date: November 18, 2020

Today on Front Burner, we’re bringing you updates on three stories we’ve been following: the latest vaccine news, a new twist in the Mi’kmaq lobster dispute, and a Canadian company embroiled in a major U.S. voter fraud conspiracy.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. So we're going to change up the pace a little bit today. When you're in the daily news cycle, it's easy to just move on to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. But today, instead of doing that, we're going to update some recent important stories we've covered.

I'm talking about more good news on the vaccine front, a new twist on the Mi'kmaq lobster dispute, and a Canadian company that has found itself in the middle of one of the U.S. election's biggest conspiracy theories. This is FrontBurner. So last week we were very excited to talk about the news that Pfizer's early trials for its COVID-19 vaccine candidate have been 90% effective. But we didn't expect that we'd be talking about more good vaccine news so soon. Another pharmaceutical company, Moderna, has now released data from its ongoing vaccine study, and they say that their vaccine has been 95% effective. So CBC science and health reporter Emily Chung is back. Hi, Emily. Hi, Jamie.

Thanks so much for coming back onto the podcast so soon. It was just a week ago that we spoke to you about these very promising results from Pfizer's vaccine trials. So how good is it that we have two real potential vaccines now? It's great. Obviously, you know, the more options, the better. And the other cool thing is these two are the same type of vaccine. And if they're getting similar results, that's good news. In some ways, you know, they validate each other and show that this is a more general trend for this type of vaccine and also other vaccines, possibly, that are also based on the spike protein that don't necessarily use the same kind of technology.

Right. And we talked about this with you last week. This is mRNA vaccines. It's called messenger RNA technology. It uses genetic signals to trick the immune system into producing antibodies that attack the virus's spike protein, killing the virus. So let's talk about the findings so far coming out of this ongoing Moderna study, because they're pretty astounding. Half the participants were given a placebo, just like the Pfizer study, and half were given the Moderna vaccine. And tell me about what the results of that were. So they had 95 people test positive for COVID-19 infection, and only five of those were from the group that got the real vaccine. All the rest were from the group that got the placebo. Okay. And what about the participants who got extreme cases of COVID?

Yeah, they also mentioned that 11 of these participants got severe COVID, and of those, they were all in the placebo group. That feels like really positive news, right? The idea that this vaccine could sort of dampen the seriousness of COVID-19? For sure. I mean, that said, there are still a lot of questions remaining. For example, we don't know, they only tested people like in the Pfizer trials, they only tested people who had symptoms of disease. So it's possible that even if you have the vaccine, you can still get asymptomatic infection. And they don't know whether some of those people might be able to still transmit the disease. Also, this is still only partway through the trial. So Moderna, just like Pfizer said, the results could still change

by the time they reach the end of the trial. Right, right. You told me this last week, too. Don't get too excited yet. There's still a lot of unknowns. A few more things I wanted to ask you about the Moderna vaccine. I know that one advantage it might be in how it can be stored. And can you tell me about that? Well, in general, mRNA vaccines need to be stored very cold because RNA is not super stable. And so in the case of the Pfizer vaccine, it needs to be stored at minus 70, which is way, way colder than any normal freezer. Now, Moderna says they have a special kind of packaging for their RNA. So they're able to store their vaccine at warmer temperatures. So their vaccine, they say,

temperatures. So their vaccine, they say, can be transported and stored long-term at minus 20, which is a normal freezer temperature, and that it can stay at room temperature for up to a month. Okay. We should probably note another difference too, right? And that's the price. another difference too, right? And that's the price. Yes. Reports are that the Moderna vaccine is at least 50% more expensive per dose than the Pfizer vaccine. Okay. I know that Canada has already pre-ordered at least 20 million doses of this new Moderna vaccine. And theoretically, we could order as much as 56 million. And when we talked last week, you were talking about an April timeline for Canadians to get access to some kind of vaccine. And does this new information about the Moderna vaccine, does it change that timeline at all, you think? I don't think so. I mean, both these vaccines are sort of like at a similar stage of development right now.

They still haven't reached the end of their clinical trial. They still need to get approval. And Canada is not going to be first in line to get them. Now, both these companies have said they will deliver the vaccine in 2021. But the U.S. has actually reserved the first doses of both these vaccines. Right. And I imagine this is why we're seeing officials in the U.S. like Dr. Anthony Fauci talk about a December-January timeline for the U.S. Right. Because they've reserved the first batch. Okay. Well, Emily, thank you so much for this update, and we hope to talk to you real soon. Okay. You're welcome.

All right, so back in October, we did a story about Mi'kmaq lobster fishermen in Nova Scotia who had been attacked after launching a moderate livelihood fishery. Non-Indigenous commercial fishermen and their supporters torched trucks, raided depots, dumped lobster hulls. ...in lobster pound here. There's a couple of hundred non-natives out there smashing windows. They smashed every window out of this place. Oh, boy. We'll see how this goes.

The tensions were extremely high, and the RCMP faced a lot of criticism for not intervening. Non-Indigenous fishermen said that because a moderate livelihood fishery allowed Mi'kmaq to fish off-season, it would deplete the lobster stocks. The Mi'kmaq reject this. Things have been quieter lately, but then last week there was a major development. A coalition of Mi'kmaq First Nations became part of a billion-dollar deal to buy Halifax-based clearwater seafoods. Paul Withers is an expert on the fisheries beat at CBC Nova Scotia, and he's joining us from Halifax. Hi, Paul.

Hello to you. So one of the issues at the core of this dispute was something called a moderate livelihood fishery. This is something that Indigenous people have a right to pursue. And commercial fishermen, non-Indigenous fishermen, said it allowed them to fish out of season and could damage the lobster stocks. And Paul, does this news resolve that dispute? No, it does not.

The Mi'kmaq are trying to separate what is a blockbuster deal, as you mentioned, with Clearwater from the momentum that exists and has been accelerating this fall on achieving a moderate livelihood fishery. Now, on the Clearwater deal, this is a monumental shift in the fishery here in Atlantic Canada. Clearwater is North America's largest producer of shellfish. They have a fleet of vessels that fish from off of northern Labrador right off to southern Nova Scotia. And this vaulted the Mi'kmaq into a serious leadership position in the fishery, in the alpha dog of the fishery. So that was a big deal. And it is a commercial operation for the Mi'kmaq, a big deal for them, and a big deal really in the psyche of the fishery here in Atlantic Canada. What does this allow the Coalition of Mi'kmaq First Nations to do? Well, what it does is it gives them a seat at the boardroom table,

as Chief Terry Paul of the Member 2 Band in Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, said. It makes them a player. In order to win at business, you have to play. And as he said, we won. Issues altogether, like the Clearwater deal, is strictly a commercial transaction and has nothing to do with our inshore commercial or livelihood fishery. In terms of the actual dollars and cents they're borrowing about a quarter billion dollars to buy in essence all of Clearwater's Canadian

licenses for scallops, crab, lobster, you name it anything that has to do with shellfish. waters, Canadian licenses for scallops, crab, lobster, you name it, anything that has to do with shellfish. That's the big deal for them. And, you know, I have to say, Jamie, it's not a super surprise here in Atlantic Canada. The Mi'kmaq have been players in the fishery ever since the Marshall decision that sort of affirmed the moderate livelihood. When that decision was released in 1999, they left moderate livelihood undefined. That would come back to bite everybody this fall. But the Mi'kmaq were integrated into the commercial fisheries in a very serious way. I mean, right now, they hold 2,400 commercial fishing licenses, and that's up from just 300.

Paul, what's the reaction from the non-Indigenous commercial fishermen to this deal? Well, there was a big gasp in Atlantic Canada, especially in Nova Scotia. We don't know yet whether their operations will change. I doubt very much whether it will. Clearwater is primarily an offshore harvester of lobster way out in the water. They are also a big buyer of inshore lobster from commercial fishermen who are opposed to the moderate livelihood out of season fishery. One of the things that we have been hearing there quietly said is one of the arguments for the moderate livelihood fishery was,

look, it will spread the wealth into Mi'kmaq communities. It will help lift them from poverty. But when you're in the boardrooms of Clearwater and an owner, how poor can you be when you can afford to borrow a quarter billion dollars? We've heard that sort of thought out there. We'll have to see whether it actually translates into any change on the actual wharves of Atlantic Canada. The bands, the member two in particular, have said they don't expect Clearwater to change its operations at all. All right, Paul, thank you so much for this. I know there's still a lot to follow with the moderate livelihood fishery dispute, and we're going to continue to keep tabs on it. And I hope that you will come back onto the podcast and fill us in.

Anytime you want. Thanks very much. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years.

I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples,

I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. We're going to end this episode with a story that touches on a number of themes we've talked about a lot lately on the show, including the U.S. election, disinformation, and QAnon. Dominion Voting Systems is a Canadian company that supplies hardware and software for ballot counting in elections around the world, including the U.S. federal election. And thanks to an error in one Michigan county, the company has now found itself at the center of a voter fraud conspiracy that's being spread by the far right, cable news hosts, and Donald Trump himself. Today, I'm talking to Jane Litvinenko, a senior reporter at BuzzFeed who focuses on disinformation. Hi, Jane. Hi, thanks for having me.

Thank you so much for being here. So, look, last week, Donald Trump tweeted out a baseless claim about this Canadian company, Dominion Voting Systems. And what did he say? What claim is he making? So the claim that Mr. Trump is making is that Dominion, this is a quote, Dominion deleted 2.7 million Trump votes nationwide. And that's not an accurate claim, but it was sourced from OAN, which is a far-right conservative TV network. Dominion Voting Systems is one such software that seemed to have a pattern of switching votes from Trump to Biden. And it really plays into the larger picture of falsehood, disinformation, and conspiracies that we've seen surrounding the election both before Election Day and after. And I want to talk to you today about how this claim got circulating in the first place. Because at its heart, there is a real thing, right, that error in one michigan county and can you tell me

about what that was and how that one error then spiraled into this huge conspiracy absolutely so on november 4th officials in antrim county posted on facebook that there was an error in the way the ballots were counted that the the error was caught, and the results, which were reviewed by an independent board of canvassers, were verified. So it was a really sort of minor issue that was fixed right away. And it really flew under the radar until the chair of the Michigan Republican Party held a press conference a couple of days later, during which she essentially said that Dominion was responsible for widespread errors around the county. She falsely implied that all Dominion systems could have had this issue.

And that just wasn't the case. In Antrim County, ballots were counted for Democrats that were meant for Republicans, causing a 6,000 vote swing against our candidates. The county clerk came forward and said tabulating software glitched and caused a miscalculation of the votes. How has Dominion, the Canadian company at the heart of this, responded to this whole thing? I imagine they're a little bit surprised to have found themselves in the center of this. Yeah, it seems like they've really been inundated with this conspiracy. But even before we get to the Dominion response, it's really important to understand how Michigan officials have responded to this. So after this press conference,

which went hugely viral and was amplified by many supporters of the president, the Michigan Secretary of State, who's responsible for the election, essentially said that the equipment and software did not malfunction and all ballots were properly tabulated. And when that didn't curb were properly counted and Dominion voting system has nothing to do with this. Dominion voting systems themselves say that they have nothing to do with this. But Mr. Trump and his supporters are amplifying these false claims anyway. So what about the president's claim that millions of ballots were altered by Democrats for Democrats? This, again, is just completely made up. We have no evidence that millions of ballots were altered.

In fact, we don't have any evidence that any ballot was improperly altered. Now, people might be watching thinking, well, the president might be must be basing this on something. It must be a stretch. No, this is completely, Brianna, conjured again out of thin air. And I'll remind you that the right. There's also a QAnon connection here I wanted to ask you about. And for our listeners, you may be familiar with this conspiracy. We've talked about it a number of times on the show. It's this huge conspiracy theory that says Donald Trump is trying to stop this cabal of Satan-worshipping pedophiles, many of them high-ranking Democrats. There are no facts behind it. But what's the QAnon connection to this story? Well, as with many stories online and many

conspiracies that spread online, the QAnon connection is that it provides a ready audience, a ready and active audience that's willing to sort of buy into a lot of these false claims, especially when they come from the president. And here with Dominion, one of the claims that we saw, and again, no evidence for this, I have to stress, then switched votes for Mr. Trump. And that's a bit, you know, you have to do a bit of mental gymnastics to get that. But QAnon supporters really very actively believe in this theory. And I also have to note that it's not just QAnon supporters that are buying into it. People who are not part of this mass delusion also very much promote this theory online.

Right, right. I mean, you mentioned OAM, that right-wing news organization at the top, Donald Trump, of course. Even Fox News hosts like Sean Hannity are repeating this misinformation about Dominion. The company is called Dominion Voting. It's used in 28 states. Several days ago, Dominion came under heavy fire after allegations that their machines caused thousands of votes in one Michigan county to be switched from Donald Trump to Joe Biden. And so is Trump's personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani. This Dominion company is a radical left company. One of the people there is a big supporter of Antifa and has written

horrible things about the president for the last three or four years. And this is just one of several voter fraud conspiracies that Donald Trump and his supporters are continuing to spread, even now that Joe Biden has decisively won. Jane, I want to ask you about the real world impact of all of this, this misinformation and disinformation about electoral fraud. How are you seeing it move from the internet and cable news into real life? Well, the sheer volume of the voter fraud claims, something that NBC News calls death by a thousand cuts, has really convinced a lot of people that these claims are accurate. Over the weekend, we saw people in D.C. marching as part of a Stop the Steal protest, which was focused on false claims of voter fraud. My mission is to

let the country and especially the Supreme Court and those involved in court decisions know that we have not given up on the fact that there's irregularities in voting and they're being exposed. And in Pennsylvania, we've seen two armed men allegedly drive to the ballot counting center in Philly. to the Ballot Counting Center in Philly. It's unclear what the reason was, but it seems like they were at least in part motivated by false claims of voter fraud. So this stuff really bleeds from the online environment into real life impacts. And that's really important to keep in mind here.

All right, Jane Livonenko, thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you again for having me. All right, so before we go today, another update on the Dominion voting system story that came after we recorded with Jane on Tuesday. Elections Canada is now in the middle of this whole thing. The agency responsible for our elections had sent out a tweet saying, we don't use the Dominion system here and we use paper ballots instead. Donald Trump has now retweeted it with a quote saying,

this says it all, implying that Canada does not use them because they are susceptible to election fraud. To be clear, Elections Canada's tweet did not say that there is anything wrong with the Dominion voting technology. All right, that is all for today. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.