Front Burner - Victims of communism memorial received donations honouring Nazi collaborators

Episode Date: July 27, 2021

Another controversy for the Memorial to the Victims of Communism in Ottawa as some donations were made to it in honour of fascists and Nazi collaborators.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Elamin Abdelmahmoud filling in for Jamie Poisson. So there's this monument currently being built in Ottawa. It's called the Memorial to the Victims of Communism.

For years now, it's been followed by controversy. Over its location, which has been moved, its price tag, which has ballooned, its scale, which has been moved, its price tag, which has ballooned, its scale, which has been downsized, and also over some of those who could potentially be memorialized, as some donations to the memorial have been made in honor of fascists and Nazi collaborators. Today, I'm joined by freelance journalist and public historian Taylor Notes. He's going to walk us through his recent reporting on the story. Hi, Taylor. How are you? Not too bad. Thank you so much for having me.

So for those who are not familiar with this project, just briefly, what is this memorial to victims of communism? is this memorial to victims of communism? So back in 2007, Jason Kenney was walking through a garden outside of Toronto with the Czech ambassador and came across a monument that featured the figure of a person being crucified on a hammer and sickle. And he was quite moved by this and thought that there should be a similar monument in the nation's capital and working groups were put together the idea was to put together a memorial that would be in tribute to all people that were victimized and persecuted by communist regimes and that it would have a home in in the nation's capital and we stand in full solidarity with a coalition of our two dozen cultural communities in canada mr speaker who came to this country as refugees from totalitarian communist states with a coalition of over two dozen cultural communities in Canada, Mr. Speaker, who came to this country as refugees from totalitarian communist states,

Koreans, Vietnamese, Ukrainians, all of whom remember, Mr. Speaker, members of their family and relatives who lost their lives under these systems, Mr. Speaker. I hear, unfortunately, heckling from the NDP on this point. So, can you tell me maybe like the best intention of this memorial? What is the best version of the intentions of this memorial? Well, there were people who were legitimately persecuted and victimized by communist regimes, whether those were the big ones like the Soviet Union or the People's Republic of China or smaller regimes like Ceausescu's Romania.

There were people whose lives were legitimately hurt, people who lost their lives to these regimes. And there's definitely an interest to commemorate those people, especially because so many of those people found refuge in Canada. Canada has a large Eastern European population, as an example. Canada has a large Eastern European population, as an example, and there's a lot of people here in Canada today who have family members whose lives were upended by these regimes. So those are the people who have an interest in this monument. There's a broader general interest in this monument for the Canadian public. This is definitely a teachable kind of monument. The problem is that we're lumping in a lot of different people altogether together in one memorial. And some of those people should not be involved at all. Now, let's talk about how this monument transitioned from being sort of, I guess, private conversation to public domain, like, I

guess, all of us having some kind of stake in how it gets built, because I understand that it was originally supposed to be built entirely with private donations. But then in 2013, Stephen Harper's conservative government pledged $1.5 million to help get it built. What history has taught us is one clear thing, that the political ideologies that promise utopia lead to the opposite, hell on earth. That's why Canada needs this monument. And why we are so grateful to the work of Tribute to Liberty that reminds us of the names and the stories of those lost to one of the deadliest ideological plagues ever spread to communism.

Even now, the price tag has continued to go higher and higher. Liberal Finance Minister Christopher Eland announced $4 million more for this project in the most recent budget. So now the total cost is estimated at $7.5 million. Yeah, that's right. That's five times the original estimate. And it's a smaller monument. Negative symbolism, aggressive, detrimental to the dignity of Parliament Hill. After political and public backlash, it will no longer sit on the lawn of

the Supreme Court and it will be redesigned. So our concept is to create a three-dimensional calendar. Over 4,000 bronze rods would be arranged along 365 stainless steel fins, each one pointing at a unique angle of the sun. So let's talk about the way that this project seems to cross partisan lines, because I can't picture too many projects that would be embraced by both Jason Kenney and Christian Freeland. So that's a very

interesting question. There's a strong political component to what should be a very non-political initiative, right? This is a, we're talking about public commemoration. Politics should not be entering into the conversation. But unfortunately, this is about votes. This is about recognizing certain communities

that may be strategically important in upcoming elections. So that's why, and I mean, nobody wants to say that they're opposed to a monument to the victims of totalitarian regimes, obviously. The problem, though, is that from the best of my investigation, there doesn't seem to be too many historians brought in at the outset to determine who would and would not be included in this. In a subsequent conversation with Canadian Heritage, they told me that the idea was to really leave the commemoration in the hands of those

who felt most victimized. So on the one hand, that leave the commemoration in the hands of those who felt most victimized. So on the one hand, that's an interesting idea to put that kind of control, that editorial control, if you will, in the hands of the people who are most directly affected by it. But on the flip side, the lack of any sort of direct government oversight in terms of who's getting commemorated, what the intention of the monument is, that's now leading to a whole bunch of new problems, as I illustrated in the story. So this is where we're going next, because the project has also been partly financed through this virtual Buy a Brick campaign.

It's run by the charity Tribute to Liberty. And in this campaign, donors can dedicate a virtual brick to victims of communism. But some of these virtual bricks have been dedicated to war criminals like Ante Pavelic. Can you tell me about him? Ante Pavelic was the leader of the Ustazi. Ustazi is a Croatian fascist organization that was active in the 30s and 40s. In the Second World War, as Hitler ruled across Eastern Europe, he basically chose all the fascist organizations that were already up and running in these Eastern European countries. So Ante Pavelic then becomes the leader of the

independent state of Croatia, which was a Nazi puppet government that was responsible for most of what would become Yugoslavia. So this is a man who is responsible for the murder of at least 330,000 Serbs, tens of thousands of Jews, tens of thousands of Roma. And on the Pathways to Liberty, on the website, he is listed simply as being a doctor of laws by the organization that purchased the bricks in tribute to him. I understand that his virtual brick is no longer on that website now? Yeah, so that's another interesting component of this story, because it seems as though a bit of noise was generated back in April, around the time that Chrystia Freeland announced new funding for the memorial. Some people started saying, hey, wait a second, you know, look at these names on this list. Who exactly are we commemorating here? And so Ante Pavelic and another high-ranking Ustazi official, Mael Budak, their names and their biographies were removed from the official list. Other Ustazi officials like Ivan Orsenik,

his name's still on the list. And there's still more names to talk about. So there are also five virtual bricks bought in honor of Roman Shikhevich. Who's that? Roman Shikhevich is a, depending on who you talk to, Roman Shikhevich is either a Ukrainian freedom fighter or he is a Nazi collaborator. depending on who you talk to, Roman Shukhevich is either a Ukrainian freedom fighter,

or he is a Nazi collaborator. Basically, what happened is, as Hitler invaded and occupied Eastern Europe, all of those Nazi soldiers were sent to the front lines to go fight the Russians. Certain, a small group of soldiers had to stay behind, and they had to organize collaborationists. And so like I said, you know, before, they were typically organized with local fascists or ultranationalists to control the countries. And Roman Shukhovich was one of the people. He was the leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, Bandera Faction. And he was given a position in the German Nazi auxiliary police and essentially spent his time during the war massacring Jews, Poles,

and other partisans, anybody that they suspected of being a communist. And of course, at that time, you know, Jewish people in Eastern Europe were fighting with the communists, with the Soviet Union, because they were opposed to the Nazis. So there's a bit of overlap there, and who was a partisan and, you know and who might be Jewish. To be clear, those who lionize Shukhovich, they don't see him as a Nazi collaborator, right? Like, what are they celebrating? They're celebrating the fact that he fought against essentially everyone that wasn't Ukrainian for an independent, sovereign Ukraine. And they see a James Bond-esque heroic figure who

is a double agent, who is constantly shifting allegiances for the betterment and the protection of his own people. And it's very romantic. And it's very, you know, it's the stuff of Hollywood movies. But at the end of the day, this guy has a body count. But in the effort to sort of whitewash history, it's and this is being done essentially because of contemporary political issues, right? The issue isn't what Shikhevich did. The issue is, you know, Ukraine has always been fighting against Russia for their independence. Right? So because of these contemporary political concerns, the historical historical facts essentially being tossed out the window. Now, there's also a bust, a statue of this man in Edmonton that was defaced recently.

That's correct. And last year it was defaced with the words Nazi scum, which ultimately led to Edmonton to police, they initiated a hate crime investigation. And then when there was some backlash because, you know, can you really open up a hate crime investigation into a Nazi collaborator or the bust of a Nazi collaborator, they ultimately downgraded that to mischief. In a statement to City News, the Ukrainian Youth Unity Council calls the accusations against Shukhevich misinformed and not historically accurate. They write that he is a hero and that Russia has long attempted to divide ethnic communities. You know, we are having a lot of conversations about what gets memorialized or not memorialized in this country right now. And it does strike me as beyond comprehension that some of the people that you've described could in any way be honored or glorified.

Yeah, I think, you know, there is something of a process in place to go through who's going to be commemorated. The problem is that it's not, it wasn't done initially, it seems. And that's probably as a consequence of a lack of resources. But on the flip side, you know, there are ultra nationalist communities from various Eastern Eastern European diaspora communities living in Canada. they have their way of seeing history. You know, they are looking to commemorate and remember members of their community and members of the community back home in the way that they think is fitting and appropriate. And that's how you end up in this situation. I think as well, it's worth keeping in mind that at one point uh they were looking for donors and i think the door was thrown wide open uh on who might be accepted when i spoke with canadian

heritage they said it could be the the people to be included in the physical memorial it could be a donor a victim the family of a victim a historical figure an event um and this led to a lot of people just commemorating whomever. It's unfortunate, but had there been a few more historians working on this project from the get-go with a clear idea of who should be included in this, we might not have run into this problem. So you spoke to Holocaust historian Efraim Zurauf of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Jerusalem about these virtual bricks. That's a center known for its Holocaust research and remembrance.

It was established to help bring Nazi war criminals to justice. What did he tell you? He was quite dismayed with some of the names that were included on this. He made one statement. He said, look, if Canada commemorates Ante Pavelic or Roman Shukhovich,

it can throw its human rights record right in the trash. This is a man who spent his entire life hunting Nazis, literally hunting Nazis and trying to bring them to justice. And so for a country like Canada that, you know, it's been always it's always been quite clear what side of that issue we were on. Right. We fought the Nazis. We were allied with the Soviet Union to have a monument go up or to even have pre-existing monuments like the one in Edmonton dedicated to Nazis and Nazi collaborators. This is terribly unfortunate. And it really does demand a bit more oversight on the part of various governments to make sure that it's clear who exactly we're commemorating and why. Now, I imagine if you're watching all of this virtual memorial and these virtual bricks unfold, if your ancestors were killed in a purge in Stalin's Russia or Mao's China, I imagine it's an offense to their memory to be lumped in with war criminals.

Absolutely. You hit the nail right on the head. Again, and this is every historian I spoke to was very clear about this point. There are legitimate victims of totalitarian regimes. These people deserve some sort of commemoration. But to then get thrown in with people who massacred people because they weren't the right religion or weren't the right ethnicity during the war. That's terribly offensive. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization,

empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people, and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income?

That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. Okay, so we've been talking about these virtual bricks, but of course, there is this physical memorial that's being built in Ottawa. and the Department of Canadian Heritage hired a Carleton University historian to review a list of names proposed for possible inclusion on that memorial. What did he tell you? He told me that there is, the list that he was given does contain names

of people, as he put it, associated with fascist organizations, collaborationist governments, who are either collaborators or Nazis, you know, very directly. There are people who definitely merit removal from this list that's to be included in the physical memorial. But in addition to that, he told me that there are some names that he just can't see any connection whatsoever to persecution by communist governments. The Carleton University professor made recommendations to Canadian Heritage, but has no control over who's ultimately included in the list or not.

Ultimately, though, Canadian Heritage and Tribute to Liberty have both stressed that this is an ongoing process, that their work is not completed yet, and that they expect to have an idea about who might be included in the final form of the monument, which is currently being built by the end of this year. This charitable organization, Tribute to Liberty, what do they say about these donations that are honoring the fascists and the Nazi collaborators? Their position is that it's premature to judge any of the names on the list. And it's premature to really come to any conclusion about what's happening. And when I spoke with the chair of Tribute to Liberty, Ludwig Kankowski, he said over and over and over again, you know, our work isn't done yet. Just wait, have patience, etc, etc. He stressed the fact that no monument in Canada would have any, you know, tribute to Nazis or Nazi collaborators or whatnot. When I asked Canadian Heritage, who's really responsible for this, Canadian Heritage said, look, we're looking at the names that were provided to us. We're just looking at the list.

We're not looking at their website. We're not looking at any future websites they may put together. That's on them. What is next for this monument? Because it was supposed to be completed by 2018. We're now in 2021, and it still seems to be this work in progress. We're now in 2021, and it still seems to be this work in progress. So it's not entirely clear when this thing is going to be completed.

But, I mean, there is a work site that is active right now in the Garden of Provinces and Territories in downtown Ottawa. The cash injection of $4 million earlier this year is hopefully going to speed things up. So it's possible this project will be completed this year. There might be an effort to try to get this completed before the election. So it looks like the government's taking care of the things that they promised to complete. But it's not quite clear whether that goal will be met. The only real idea of a firm date that I got was from Ludwig Klinkowski with Tribute to Liberty, who says that the vetting of the people to be commemorated on the Wall of Remembrance should be completed by the end of this year. Taylor, thank you so much for your time. It was a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Before we go today, another story out of Ottawa. On Monday, Mary Simon was sworn in as Canada's 30th Governor General. She vowed to use her position to work against climate change, advocate for mental health, and work towards reconciliation. Mary Simon is the first Indigenous person and first Inuk to hold the position of Governor General here in Canada. Today is an important and historic day for Canada, but my story to these chambers began very far from here. I was born Mary Jeannie May in Arctic Quebec, now known as Nunavik. My Inuk name is Ninyukurlak,

and Prime Minister, it means bossy little old lady. It took time before I gained the self-confidence to assert myself and my beliefs in the non-Indigenous world. But when I came to understand that my voice had power and that others were looking to me to be their voice, I was able to let go of my fear. That's all for today. Thanks for listening to Frontburner.