Front Burner - Was banning 'Baby, It's Cold Outside' the right call?

Episode Date: December 6, 2018

"In the context of this song it seems weird to not engage a little bit with the words and the lyrics," says writer Stacy Lee Kong after broadcasters, including the CBC, pull the song 'Baby It's Cold Outside'. The song is being criticized for what some believe to be problematic lyrics, in the wake of the #MeToo movement. But is taking the holiday tune off the radio the right call? Alan Cross, a longtime music journalist also joins the discussion.

Hey there, I'm David Common. If you're like me, there are things you love about living in the GTA and things that drive you absolutely crazy. Every day on This Is Toronto, we connect you to what matters most about life in the GTA, the news you gotta know, and the conversations your friends will be talking about. Whether you listen on a run through your neighbourhood or while sitting in the parking lot that is the 401, check out This Is Toronto, wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Pussow. There's this radio station in Cleveland, Star 102.

Usually it plays pop hits, but every season it switches to Christmas music. All the time. Seriously. Count it down with me. Three, two, one. Christmas music! So a couple of weeks ago, Star 102 made the switch. But they didn't include one very famous song on their list. Baby, It's Cold Outside.

It's been a controversial song for a while now. Some commentators have argued the lyrics of Baby, It's Cold Outside are about a man who doesn't understand consent. Take a listen to this. I ought to say no, no, no, sir. At least I'm gonna say that I tried. That's the sense of hurting my pride. So this DJ, Glenn Anderson, wrote a post on the station's website

explaining why they dropped the song. And I'm gonna quote from this post. You, the listeners, told us it's no longer appropriate. I gotta be honest, I didn't understand why the lyrics were so bad until I read them. I do realize that when the song was written in 1944, it was a different time. But now while reading it, it seems very manipulative and wrong.

Glenn goes on. In a world where Me Too has finally given women the voice they deserve, the song has no place. This decision by the radio station immediately set off a chain reaction, a huge firestorm. Is it a sign of respect for the Me Too movement or a ridiculous example of political correctness spoiling holiday tradition. You know the words, but what do they really mean? It may be a catchy ditty, but when you listen to the lyrics, there's nothing catchy about Baby It's Cold Outside, according to Cleveland's WDOK and their listenership.

The Star 102 Facebook page has hundreds of comments now. We tried to actually talk to them today and they hung up on us. Lots of people love this song and they're really mad about the decision. There's been so many angry reactions that people have been calling a different 102 FM in Kansas City to complain about this. That station, I should note, does play the song. But more radio stations across North America have pulled Baby is Cold Outside. Was it the right call? And what do you do with an old song with a controversial message? That's today on FrontBurner. Okay, so we've got two guests today. Alan Cross, longtime music journalist. He used to be a program director at various chorus radio stations.

And also Stacey Lee Kong, contributor and writer of Flair Magazine. Hey, guys. Hi. Hello. This whole song, it's essentially about a man who wants a woman to stay the night with him. And she talks about why she should leave, and he talks about why he wants her to stay. And I want to get into the controversy around this. And she talks about why she should leave and he talks about why he wants her to say. And I want to get into the controversy around this.

So let's get into some of the specific lyrics that people are taking issue with. Stacey, can you give me some examples? So I really think the big one is, say what's in this drink. Say what's in this drink. Caps to be had out there. I don't know that you can live in 2018, listen to the song, and not think, oh, that's a little bit rapey. And I think that's the big one.

But I also think it's sort of a cumulative effect of, you know, she's saying she doesn't really want to stay or that she should go, and he's saying, well, no, you know, there are no cabs outside. And at one point she actually says, no, no, no. And I think that's when he says, mind if I move in closer. Which is not so much the answer you want. So the idea here is that one, this particular lyric about the drink has caught a lot of attention because people think that it might be or could be sort of an inference to this drink being spiked. Yeah, or it feels like in 2018 that it's about Rufy.

And the other thing is sort of this constant insistence from this man that he wants her to stay. Totally. Even when she protests. I really can't stay. Oh, baby, don't hold out, baby. It's cold outside. Okay.

I want to get to the other side of this argument because there have been several defenses for this, including defenses from feminists. Alan, can you help me unpack some of the defenses here? Sure. It's this age-old debate about which lens we view an older piece of art through. Do we view it through the context of the times and the environment in which it was created, or do we view it through today's mores and attitudes?

Now, this song was written in 1944. It was written by Frank Loesser with his wife as a a goof they wanted to be able to sing this song and make their friends laugh at parties hey baby where you going i really can't say it was designed as a flirty and fun call and response exchange between a man and a woman the issue is not whether or not it is or back then is not whether it's rapey issue is not whether or not it is, or back then, is not whether it's rapey or not, but whether or not the woman's reputation will be sullied if she stays the night with a man she is not married to. So that was the big controversy of the song back in the day. There's bound to be talk tomorrow. At least there will be plenty implied.

If you caught pneumonia and died. At least there will be plenty implied. If you caught pneumonia and died. She does end up staying of her own volition. But I can understand in today's Me Too environment, some people are interpreting the man is pressuring her by perhaps trying to get her drunk. Now, in 1944, the modern Rufy did not exist. So she's trying to get her, you know, little tipsy so that

she'll stay. And okay, we can look at this little predatory. And again, if we look at it on paper, if we look at the naked lyrics on paper, man, there's a bunch of ways that you could take this that would be pretty evil. But if you have a man and a woman doing the call and response together, it can be, like I say, fun and flirty. And so I just want to jump in. One thing people have pointed out, this lyric where she says, no, no, no, she precedes it with the word ought. I ought to say no, no, neither. And just to pick up on what you were saying before, the idea here is that at that time, there were these societal pressures around women to not spend the night with someone that they're not married to.

So, you know, for some people who have interpreted this song, this is far more about the pressures that the woman was facing. And that feminism since then has done a lot to allow women to sort of make their own choices about who they want to spend the night with. And to Alan's point, I didn't actually know this before I did a deep dive into this song. In the 40s, the joke of what's in that drink, but at the time it didn't mean the same thing. So like, yes, roofies did not exist. And actually it was a joke about the fact that there was probably no alcohol in that drink. So we're but we're just was probably no alcohol in that drink. So we're, but we're just not listening to it in that context. But we are in 2018.

So Alan, I, I'm interested to know sort of as a music critic, do you think it's fair in 2018 to judge a song from 1944? Out of context? Yes. But then, you know,

we can also, and I'm equivocating here, but we can also look at a bunch of other songs that make us cringe, given the current state of mind of the world. For example, Ringo Starr is 78 years old. He's still touring. It's a bit cringy to watch Ringo Starr sing, You're 16, You're Beautiful, and You're Mine. It's cringy to go to a KISS concert and hear them sing Christine 16. Sex, pain But when I saw you coming out of school that day It's a little weird for some people who may have been touched by school shootings to listen to Alice Cooper's School's Out. School's been thrown to pieces

You've got to take these things within the context and the era in which they were written and created. If you don't, well, then a lot of things start to become distorted. Stacey, what are your thoughts on that? The idea is, you know, if we're going to pull this song, are we entering down a very slippery slope here, right? Like by applying the same rules to, I don't know, Drake? Like there's definitely some lyrics there that people can take issue with. Telling me it's only been a couple other people that you've been with. I'ma trust you. I'ma give

you the benefit of the doubt. And I'ma love you. You can even call me daddy. Give you someone to look up to. I think it is for me at least less about making a sweeping statement, but it's hard not to take those things in context. So I have slightly different references than Alan, but to think about something like friends, for example. So when you look back at friends, there's a lot of sexism, like a lot of it. I just want to say that of all the guys that Monica has been with, and that is a lot. I like you the best. You hear that? She likes me best. And apparently they've been a lot. So I think it's hard not to apply a modern lens. So should we stop watching those shows? So, okay, the artist creates something

and there's all this context around the artist, but there's also all this context around the audience. So if you are getting something out of Friends, I don't think it means that you stop watching it. But I do think it's slightly weird not to acknowledge the thing that is happening. Like, in the context of this song, it seems weird to not engage a little bit with the words and the lyrics and to actually talk about issues of consent. Like, to just not engage with that at all and to sort of gloss over it, to me, feels weird. So I can't really do that. So for you, it's OK to watch it and maybe it's OK to listen to this song, but it's important to be listening and watching with a critical lens. I think so.

OK, well, OK, I'm going to take this to a ridiculous extreme. I am ready. Yeah, let's do it. I think Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer should be banned because it's all about body shaming. Think of all the people with difficult-to-treat nose rosacea. All of the other reindeer used to laugh and call him names. Okay, but Alan, what if you don't ban it, but you have that conversation with people who are equally interested in issues of body image about why this could be problematic? I guess if you feel so inclined.

Okay, I'll give you another one. The Christmas Shoes. Know that one? Want her to look beautiful if mama meets Jesus tonight. Oh, I do, but I hate that song. What about the people who have lost loved ones over the Christmas season in years past? Again, I'm taking it to an absolute, utter, ridiculous, absurd extreme. Yes.

So we can take anything and put it into the most extreme current context and create a situation where somebody is a victim of this or somebody can be offended by this. And again, this is the messy world that we live in a lot of people demand that they have the right never to be offended or challenged by anything that may be well offensive so um yes let's have these conversations but please let's keep it within the bounds of um of rationality i think it's clear listening to alan that he wouldn't pull this song from the airwaves. But I'm... I know, I know.

I wouldn't play it in the first place because it's a bad song. So I correct myself. Alan thinks this is a bad song, but he wouldn't pull it from the airwaves for the reason that it's an offensive song. Right. Stacey, where do you stand here?

I think it's a little overblown, to be honest. Okay. Honestly, like, it just... there are so many Christmas songs. And if you don't want to listen to that one, just listen to another one. See, another issue that we have is that so many radio stations flip to 24-7 Christmas music at this time of year. Right. And they're very, very popular.

Stations would not do that unless they got huge ratings as a result. And they don't want to. And these tend to be adult contemporary radio stations, very family-friendly radio stations. And they run from any kind of controversy, anything that would create any kind of offense, which has amplified this whole issue. So part of it is sort of the arena that it's happening in. I think so, yes. That makes sense. You have radio stations very susceptible

to even like a small chorus of dissatisfied listeners. Yes. And believe me, having run a couple of radio stations, I can tell you that when an audience gets their teeth into a controversy about something that they think you shouldn't be doing, they can be relentless. I should also say this isn't a new thing.

You know, Spotify tried to do this last year based on a hateful speech and conduct policy. They tried to limit how much of R. Kelly's music they featured. Of course, this is a bit of a different situation. R. Kelly has been accused of many sexual assaults. Rogers, who was 19 at the time, is suing R. Kelly for sexual battery and willfully, deliberately, and maliciously infecting her with herpes. And Spotify had to walk that back in less than a month because of the public backlash. People were like, what about other musicians? So, Stacey, do you think that there's a lesson there?

in there. Yeah. So what was interesting to me is that R. Kelly's streams went up. So it wasn't just that people were talking about it. It was that people were listening to him more. And I think it's much more effective from a feminist perspective if I want to explain why R. Kelly's music is actually it's not even about R. Kelly's music. It's really about R. Kelly as a person, except for the parts where his personal life floods into his music, because certainly he's made some references and lyrics that are problematic. I don't want to tell you you shouldn't listen to R. Kelly. I would rather tell you this is what R. Kelly has been accused of doing. And here's why it's problematic. And here's why it plays into, especially in the case of R. Kelly, this is about how much we value black women and girls. This is how much we pay

attention to marginalized members of the community. This is how we talk about powerful men. Those are the conversations I would rather have instead of like, don't listen to R. Kelly's music. And Alan, how about you? How do you feel when platforms or radio stations take moral stands? It's very tough. Sometimes regulatory-wise, we have to. With the Canadian Broadcast Standards Council, they will rule on something and we have no choice. So you have to do it. For something like this, again, you have

to evaluate, is playing it more trouble than it's worth? You can take a stand, but are you going to create enough noise in the audience for it to become detrimental to your way of doing business? So again, case-by-case basis. We ran into this problem a number of years ago with Dire Straits and the money for nothing CBSC ruling, because it uses a derogatory term for gay people in the lyrics. The little got his own jet airplane. The little he's a millionaire.

Even though, you know, we went back, we tried to explain to them that, you know, this is the word is used in terms of a narrative of a character within the song. And if you take it out, it blunts the artist's intent of making fun of this character. So it's a case by case thing. And we just have to be very careful which battles we fight. So, you know, we've been talking a lot about the politics of the song. Alan has made it very clear that he doesn't like the song just as a piece of music.

Stacey, before you even heard of this controversy, did you like the song? I kind of did. I feel embarrassed to admit that. I will admit that I like the older versions, you know, pre-1965, let's say. Okay. Because they were done in the spirit of the time in which the song was released. Since then, the versions have become a little bit more sexualized, let's say. So then you're really going to hate me saying that I really enjoyed the rendition that Lady Gaga did,

where they switched the gender role. Okay, yeah, that's fine too. With the Muppets. Yes. That was lovelyuppets. Yes. That was lovely. Yeah. Yeah. I won't say no, no, no, sir.

At least I won't say that I tried. What's up with the hurt of my pride? I really can't stay. And I should note too that people have rewritten the lyrics to this song. So it's, you know, another way that people

have addressed this controversy. I really can't stay. Baby, I'm fine with that. I've got to go away. Baby, I'm cool with that. And last question, which is kind of a fun one. If you could get rid of any song,

not just a Christmas song, but any song, ban it from the airways forever, what would it be? Can I go first? Stacey. Okay, it is a Christmas song. I would ban Do They Know It's Christmas on so many levels.

And there won't be snow in Africa this Christmas time. First of all, it's stupid. So, yeah, they know it's Christmas because there's a huge Christian population in Africa and there has been for decades. So, first of all, from a factual perspective, no. Also, it's like kind of racist and colonial and just no. And also, I just don't really like it. It's kind of twee.

Okay. So that's it. That one's gone. So do you think that that song is more offensive than the song we're talking about today? Than Baby is Cold Outside? Yeah, but I also don't think we should talking about today. Then maybe it's cold outside. Yeah, but I also don't think we should ban it because then people get so mad at me. Okay. And Alan, last word to you. Mariah Carey, All I Want for Christmas is You,

simply because every time I hear it, my insulin level spikes and I threaten to go into a diabetic coma. All I want for Christmas is you. And I'm just looking at a list. There are some radio stations in Canada that are playing that song 65 times a week. I feel bad for their audience, but I feel worse for their staff. Alan, I have a feeling you just made some friends out there. Thank you so much, both of you, for joining us.

Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks, you, for joining us. Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks, Ellen. You're welcome. We asked CBC Public Affairs Head Chuck Thompson why CBC chose to pull this song from rotation. He sent us a statement. It reads in part, Song lyrics are always open to interpretation,

and we recognize there are differing opinions pertaining to the lyrics for Baby It's Cold Outside. While we consider both points of view in a thoughtful way, in light of the times we are living in, CBC Music has chosen to remove the song, for the time being, from two of its holiday music streams. That said, we have left it to the discretion of our regional managers across the country to make the call as to its use in their locations.

That's it for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. She names it Gay Girl in Damascus. Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger. The object of the email was, please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone. Available now.