Front Burner - What does United We Roll stand for?

Episode Date: February 20, 2019

On Tuesday a convoy of trucks arrived in Ottawa. The rolling protest is driven by Canadians who want pipelines, hate carbon taxes and are calling for more help for the Alberta economy. But there is another element: some in the group have also been protesting immigration and using hateful, racist, language. Today on Front Burner, CBC's David Common and Rosemary Barton explain the complicated politics around this protest.

Hey there, I'm Kathleen Goltar and I have a confession to make. I am a true crime fanatic. I devour books and films and most of all true crime podcasts. But sometimes I just want to know more. I want to go deeper. And that's where my podcast Crime Story comes in. Every week I go behind the scenes with the creators of the best in true crime. I chat with the host of Scamanda, Teacher's Pet, Bone Valley, the list goes on. For the insider scoop, find Crime Story in your podcast app. This is a CBC Podcast. As I talk about it, I can feel and smell everything that I did back then. And he looks down at me, I'm looking up at him, and he says, that's my little girl.

It's a 30-year-old homicide where we don't have anybody charged and convicted. Felt like a murderer had gotten away with something. Tell me now, did you have anything to do with the murder? Someone Knows Something with David Ridgen, Season 5. Now available. Go to cbc.ca.sks. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. Look, I don't want to speculate here, but if I'm Prime Minister and my good friend and top advisor just quit. And I'm facing an ongoing political crisis over the handling of a make-or-break court case

involving a very powerful Canadian company. This is not the sound I want to hear outside my office window. Well, Justin Trudeau didn't have a choice because on Tuesday, a convoy of about 200 trucks arrived in Ottawa. All right, well, thank you for your patience with the audio. And now it appears that we are destined not to get a clean version of that report. The rolling protest started in Red Deer, Alberta, on Valentine's Day. And a lot of the people in this convoy are angry about pipelines, carbon taxes, and the Alberta economy.

Others, though, they were wearing yellow vests and protesting immigration policy. Some of those people hold anti-Muslim or anti-Semitic beliefs. Today, I'm talking to my colleague David Common, who met up with the convoy before it got rolling in Alberta. And later, to Rosemary Barton to talk about the complicated politics around this protest. This is FrontBurner. Hi David. Hi. So you spent quite a bit of time with people before they headed out on this convoy. And you spent a lot of time with one of the organizers of this protest, a guy named Glenn Carrad.

This is my way of uniting Canada and making a stance that we're not happy with the government. And can you tell me about Glenn? So Glenn works in the oil industry, and that's really at the core of his concern. He runs an oil field fire protection business. So he spent many years as a firefighter for a city and then opened up his own business

and he runs a number of trucks throughout Alberta and parts of BC. Basically when they're drilling a new well, if there's a blowout, which doesn't happen very often, but if there is, he's there to put a fire out if one happens. And he has crews that work for him. But over the last little while

he has seen his competitors go out of business. He's seen a lot of people he knows lose their jobs. He's seeing the hurt right in front of him. He lives in Innisfail, not far from Red Deer, right in the heart of where a lot of the oil industry is based. And he himself, his own business is hurting. So now it's what's brought him to drive one of those fire trucks to Ottawa. We've had rally after rally after rally, and people in trucks rallying in Alberta, Saskatchewan, B.C., Manitoba. So this is why we need to go to Ottawa. And what does Glenn, and people like Glenn, what do they want out of this?

So people like Glenn is really the key here. He is talking strictly about economic things and grievances that he has with the Trudeau government in particular around pipelines, the carbon tax, and certain environmental legislation that has to do with the oil industry and expectations set about them that he and others feel are unrealistic, create too much of a burden. We need to abolish Bill C-48 and C-69. Businesses are leaving because of over-regulation. You ask them about the pipeline, for instance.

Well, you say, Trudeau bought that pipeline. He won't build. $4.5 billion. No small chunk of change. And he and others will say, yeah, well, he bought it, but nothing's happening. Not only is nothing happening, but we think they bought it to park it. They have no intention of ever building this thing. We don't believe it. I mean, we don't believe our our provincial government either we don't believe it we think it was bought to park it and it's absolutely heartbreaking all the people that

have lost their jobs they think that the government is just going to shelve the pipeline that is what they believe that's why they think the purchase happened and they believe it's just part and parcel of everything else that's going on that carbon tax is really there to hurt people and people who they know, people right in their industry. We've got families that are paying carbon tax and tax on top of tax, and they're going broke. People are losing their homes. And so whether it's them that we talk to or, you know, political scientists and economists who watch this movement broadly, they say this is an economic argument. And on some level, you understand it. Certainly, there are tens of thousands of people

who have lost their jobs, people who are underemployed now, businesses that have disappeared in what is a major economic driver of the Canadian economy. Many of these people are saying, what gives, Trudeau? What gives federal liberals?

Why do you care about us? And they really just feel like they're being forgotten. So Glenn and people like Glenn are very focused, squarely focused on the energy sector. They are. Now that is the United We Roll convoy, which he's behind. Then there's the broader movement. And let's talk about the broader movement, because there are other issues going on with this convoy. People who have joined it who aren't just focused on energy, like Glenn, people who have anti-Semitic views, anti-immigration views, white nationalist views,

even. Who are these people and what do they say? I know you've spoken to some of them. Yeah. So we've spoken to some of them and we have an understanding of others because they have a very strong social presence. You know, the largest Canadian Facebook yellow vest site, and that's what we're talking about is yellow vesters here, is run in part by a guy in the Toronto area named Tyler Malenfant, who anti-racism groups have outed for many things that he said in the past. He's young, but he has said many things around globalism, Jewish conspiracy, things that certainly look like white nationalism on the face of it. We tried to speak with him. He didn't show up to a meeting. We called him again, didn't respond. You know, he doesn't want to talk. Maybe he doesn't trust us. Maybe he doesn't want the

scrutiny that comes with all of that. But he is part of this yellow vest movement. And so is Glenn. But the thing is, it's weird to see how they both fit into this big, giant tent. And that's the thing. It is a huge tent. So is Glenn sharing the same views? Well, certainly not outwardly. This country was built on immigration. I'm part of that. It's just we can't have criminals. We need that control. He's not focused on that either. Glenn's message is about pipelines to carbon tax and things around the oil industry. We have no tolerance for, you know, racism, hate or any people of that nature.

That's not what this is about. When you were in Alberta, when you were talking to people who were going to join this convoy, did you get a sense of scale here? Like, how many people are we talking about in this movement that have these hateful views? It's hard to know, because those who do spout hateful views have the biggest megaphone, are heard the loudest, want to be heard the loudest. And like you mentioned, a very prevalent social media presence. Indeed, very prevalent. If I look at the social media, for instance, there's more than 100,000

members on the largest yellow vest Facebook site in Canada, but I don't know how many of them are actually in Canada. So that brings a whole bunch of other questions. But in terms of how much are the views that many people will see as more crackpot relative to the numbers who are there really about the oil industry, it's hard to say. And you saw this in action. Glenn's viewpoint is really different from some of the other people who are protesting here. Am I right? Glenn's message is about pipelines to carbon tax and things around the oil industry. But then Glenn drove down right before he went to Ottawa. He drove to a rally in Red Deer the weekend before he departed.

And we were there with him. And, you know, it wasn't big. It was like minus 30. So you've got to be pretty committed to show up. People showed up. Very committed to show up. Yeah. 20 or 30 people who kind of move in and out.

And some people are there for the same reason as Glenn. You get the message out to the rest of Canada that if it wasn't for Alberta's oil, they would be freezing in the dark. And some people are there because they feel that border jumpers getting into this country are somehow getting a much better deal and need to be stopped. Well, you know, if they can come and, you know,

be part of, you know, coming to Canada and want to make it a better place and get jobs, but to, you know, kind of live off of our system I think that's totally wrong we can't afford that. They look at the UN pact on migration which many protest signs were about and they say things like we're going to lose control of our borders it's going to force us to take more migrants. About UN migration what is national sovereignty without borders if you don't have borders you don't have a country. You know, it doesn't matter that the PAC doesn't say that. This is what they believe. And then you can try to go further. What else do they believe?

Well, you know, one of the groups we talked to, the Canadian Infidels, which comes out of the Klan, some of them showed up at a mosque in Edmonton a couple of weeks ago. As like a provocation? What were they doing there? Well, we sat down with their president, a guy named Ty Hunt, in Camrose, Alberta. And I don't know that I ever fully understood, at least by his explanation, why he was there. Because it sure looked like a provocation. One reason given was we went there to use the washroom. Well, why use the washroom in this mosque as opposed to anywhere else?

Why not the McDonald's down the street? No, well, we were there to have a better understanding about what Islam means. What does that mean? Like, you know, why show up unannounced? Well, we didn't think they would meet with us. Well, why wouldn't they meet with you? You know, you look like you could be a member of the Hell's Angels. You're not. You wear

much of the same clothing. You have the same kind of patches on your back. There is something that appears threatening about them. They were showing up at these yellow vest protests. The same ones Glenn and people who have the same ideals as Glenn were at. All the yellow vesters that don't want me involved, I respect that because they don't know who I am. I would feel the same way and that's the way our borders need to be run too. And so it's this whole idea of the big tent.

How big do you make this tent? When we were at that protest in Red Deer, we would talk to anybody who wanted to talk to us. But then some people would come to us off camera and say, don't talk to that guy. They're saying it's a distraction. Don't talk to that guy. He gives us a bad name.

They're hijacking it. But you go back to Glenn again, the guy who's organized this convoy down to Parliament Hill. What does Glenn parliament hill and he says glenn says as long as they don't spout violence or hatred that they're welcome if they have a grievance towards the federal government they feel they're not being heard every respectful peaceful uh non-radical canadian is welcome to join in this rally. I think Glenn is now beginning to realize, as others did before him, the challenge of making the tent as big as it is. Because in opening up all the flaps, you've invited people in who have very different messages, and messages that really are focused around hate. Messages that can and maybe even are currently hijacking the mission that people like

Glenn set out to do, which was to try and drum up awareness and demand change around a very real issue in Alberta, that people are hurting there over issues in the energy sector. Yeah. If you say to me, has it been hijacked? I say yes. Okay. And the challenge with that is Glenn and many of those around him, whether you agree with what their complaint is, has legitimate concerns that are concerns of many, many, many people spread out across the country who feel essentially that they are being ignored and that their concern is around the oil industry, around energy, they feel they're being forgotten. But in so inviting all these others forward, those who would don yellow vests, they're

watering down their own message. David, thank you so much. Thank you. We'll be back in a second to talk to national co-host Rosie Barton about those very real economic issues David just touched on and how the prime minister can navigate all of this. Audible has Canada's largest library of audiobooks, including exclusive content curated by and for Canadians. Experience books in a whole new way, where stories are brought to life by powerful performances from renowned actors and narrators. With the free Audible app, you can listen anytime, anywhere, whether you're at home, in the car, or out on a jog. The first 30 days of the Audible membership are free, including a free book. Go to www.audible.ca slash cbc to learn more.

Hi, Rosie. Hi. Thanks so much for joining us today. No problem. So we just heard from David, who talked about this convoy and how it's been arguably hijacked with people with anti-immigrant or white nationalist views. And yesterday, Conservative leader Andrew Scheer was out there talking to the people in this convoy. We've got your back. We're fighting for you. We are standing with you. We believe in you.

And was this a good move for him? And was this a good move for him? Not just talking to them, but, you know, posing for pictures with them in front of the trucks. Had a whole bunch of other Conservative MPs with him, making sure that he was heard, that those people felt they were heard and that he delivered the kind of message that they wanted to hear. Government doesn't need to build pipelines. Government needs to get out of the way to let each and every one of you do it. Listen, I think he was in a really tough spot. Obviously, a Conservative base is largely in Alberta and Western Canada. They have the most seats in that province.

These are people that need to be on side. They need to be feeling like they are part of the Conservative Party. So he had to go out and talk to the convoy. What he did, though, is that he sort of picked and chose which parts he wanted to address. So, yeah, he talked about oil and gas. He talked about the pipeline. He talked about how he believes the government isn't doing enough. It is time that Canada has a prime minister that is proud of our energy sector. That doesn't go to Europe to tell his famous friends that he's trying to phase out our oil and gas.

What he didn't address was any of the signage that said, let's end the UN Global Migration Pact. Which is something that he's been supportive of. He actually called into question, I guess, a little bit. Canadians want their government, not foreign entities, to be in control of our immigration system. But he certainly hasn't amped up the rhetoric around that as though it's some sort of scary thing that everyone should be worried about. But he didn't get into any of the anti-immigrant rhetoric that we could clearly see on signs. And he certainly didn't address the fact that there are people in that crowd who had signs calling Justin Trudeau a traitor. So it's one thing to go out and speak to a part of the movement that you believe is legitimate and has legitimate concerns.

But if you don't also address the fact that that group has other representation with concerns that they may believe are true, but are ultimately potentially damaging, you are opening yourself up to political damage as well. are ultimately potentially damaging, you are opening yourself up to political damage as well. I cannot see a world in which the Liberal Party at some point doesn't take those photos of Andrew Scheer talking to that group standing in front of those trucks and turn it into something else. And is there an argument here that this might also give those other people in this group with these more extreme views or anti-immigrant views, anti-Semitic views, legitimacy? For sure. I mean, I think the fact that they were in some ways welcomed onto Parliament Hill did that. I mean, the road was shut down to bring in all those trucks to bring in that convoy in front

of the prime minister's office and right in front of center block. So, but that's something that the group itself was struggling with, that, you know, they had to find a way to represent their concerns and delegitimize the people that were going to an extreme place. I guess that's the risk, though, with these kinds of movements. When a politician decides to address them, you take the risk of being associated with the elements that are not what you view as OK. And that's sort of the risk the Conservatives took today. And I guess they feel like the benefit outweighed the risk. And I should mention Maxime Bernier also spent some time with this group today. But what about his decision to go down there? Well, I think it's very much Andrew Scheer's decision is attached to Maxime Bernier because it was very clear from the beginning that Bernier was going to speak to some of these people. If he has any success in the next election, it's coming from western provinces,

mostly Manitoba, Saskatchewan, Alberta, not where he's from in Quebec. And he knew that he needed to get out there and appeal to some of the more populist viewpoints. And I say populist in the derogatory way that it is sometimes used, not in sort of the generic way. You're not asking for a handout. You're not asking for any privileges. You're just asking for being sure that this country will be able to build pipelines.

So I think his presence there probably put pressure on Conservatives and Andrew Scheer to appear because they are trying to walk a fine line between holding their Conservative voters and also making sure they don't lose some of them to a sort of the more extreme Conservative or extreme right that Maxime Bernier

is trying to whip up as well. So not surprising that he was there and in fact his presence may have forced the others to up as well. So not surprising that he was there. And in fact, his presence may have forced the others to appear as well. I know we've been talking a lot today about these more extreme factions, and that it's a very serious issue. But I also don't want to lose sight of this other very serious issue that we're talking about here, which is Alberta and how the people in Alberta are feeling and that there are people there who are hurting. And I know that you recently hosted a town hall in Alberta. And I'm hoping that you can take me through what it was like there and what you heard from the people that came to this town hall and submitted questions. How are they feeling? You know, if I could sum it up in one word, it would be sort of desperation. And it's

not just desperation for help, but also desperation to be heard. I cannot understand why there is this huge resistance to pipelines. What are we going to do if Bill C-69 were to pass in the Senate? And when do we actually drop the gloves and fight these people properly on their level to actually win? And that's why for me it was really eye-opening, you know, sitting here in Ottawa seeing the policy issues discussed but not seeing the people behind them. And a lot of people just came up after the town hall and were just so appreciative that we had made the journey. It fundamentally felt to me like, you know, that classic Western alienation. You know, they have the perspective that we have done so much for the country as an economic engine for the country, contributing.

When we're in trouble, we would like to know that our Canadians are willing to help and can appreciate all we've contributed in the past. I mean, you know, I really think in these situations, listening goes an awfully long way. I want to get to some of the specific things you heard. But first, this idea that Alberta has contributed so much. You also spoke with Jason Kenney recently, and he's currently running for premier in Alberta. And he talked about how Alberta has been a good, generous neighbour in the Federation. We've contributed a couple hundred billion dollars to the rest of the Federation through our federal taxes over the past two decades. And yet there seem to be political forces that don't want us to develop the resources that pay the bills.

And is this what you're talking about here? And is this what you're talking about here? Yeah, it is. And he obviously is positioning himself as someone that can sort of do more than what the current premier has done. I mean, some of the things that have happened have been out of her control, things that have happened externally that she has had to react to. Other things, less so. For instance, she has imposed a carbon tax on Alberta.

Jason Kenney says he would repeal that and he would put it on industry, but perhaps not individuals. He also says that he would look for ways to bring more businesses into Alberta beyond oil and gas, so ways to diversify the economy. So he's got lots of clear ideas about things that he sees as ways to strengthen Alberta. But the reality is that for now, oil and gas is still where most of the money comes from in Alberta and what most of the spinoff jobs are associated with. So whoever is going to be the next premier, they have to find a way to balance diversifying the economy,

making sure they're not 100% dependent on this up and down oil sector and making sure that they keep those people in the jobs they need to. And they both have very different plans for that, but they both are already thinking about it. And the people that you met in Alberta and you heard from in Alberta, what is it that they say that they want? Well, I would say the first thing they tell you is they don't think the federal government has done anything for them. And, you know, my follow-up question to the Premier, who also says that, is, well, they did buy you a pipeline for $4.5 billion that all Canadians now own. Then Albertans would say to you, most Albertans anyway, would say to you, well,

it's not there yet. I don't see any evidence that the government is walking away from the idea of the pipeline. They are actively trying to address the federal court decision. They are out there consulting with Indigenous groups, with a former Supreme Court justice, and they are awaiting a big decision on Friday from the National Energy Board around the impact of tanker traffic that will give them some direction as well. I don't think that the government would put that kind of money, Canadians' money on the line, if they didn't really think that this was important to Canadians and to our economic interests. So that's one thing. But whether or not it happens is another. And I can understand from Albertans the skepticism

that it will ever happen. They haven't seen a huge pipeline be built to tidewater in quite some time, right? This is something that everyone, every government has struggled with. And to be fair, they have received promises that multiple pipelines will be built. That's right. So there's a lot of eggs in this basket, if you will. And they know that, that this could make or break the future of the industry. And it's why the premier is having to mitigate against that maybe not happening by buying real cars, by curtailing the production and those kinds of measures. But I would say that Albertans are deeply skeptical about whether that's going to happen.

And that then becomes skepticism of the government, which is very clearly targeted against Justin Trudeau and the liberals because they just aren't convinced that they really think of Alberta first and foremost. I know that Trudeau had not made his way out to speak with anybody at this convoy in Ottawa. Do you think that there's anything that his government can do to win people on side here from Alberta or has he just lost this province's trust? Alberta or has he just lost this province's trust? I think he's got a lot going on right now. So I'm very, to be fair, very busy day for him. Very busy. Yeah, I'm not sure, you know, his cabinet meeting was like a gazillion hours long and stuff. I'm not sure, you know, that obviously he could have found the time if he wanted to, but I am not sure that would have been the best place for him to try to explain what his government has done for Alberta. I'm not sure that would have been the best place for him to try to explain what his government has done

for Alberta. I'm not sure that was a particularly receptive crowd. So, you know, I kind of understand that. But to the question of whether he could ever do enough, I think the answer is probably no. If you buy a province and ostensibly a country, a pipeline, they have also given hundreds of millions of dollars in support and aid and retraining money to Alberta. And when you still have that amount of anger and frustration and impatience, both on the right of the spectrum and on the left, because Rachel Notley used to be a good friend to this government and is less so now, it seems to me difficult to imagine a place where you are going to be able to hang on to the three seats you have there, or where you are going to even really be listened to

in that province anymore. The problem, of course, is that BC is right next door, isn't sure it wants the pipeline, a lot of people there, and is a hotbed of seats for the Liberals in the next election, need all of those seats in order to stay in government. So it's a tricky thing that they have to balance. Rosie, thank you so much. Thanks, Jamie. While the protest was going on Tuesday, the Premier of Alberta announced further plans to help the oil industry.

Rachel Notlease says the province will lease 4,400 rail cars, and these will ship oil to U.S. and international markets to make up for a lack of a pipeline. Notlease has 20,000 oil cars a day, will start rolling in July. This issue of oil being shipped by rail, there are real safety concerns about this, and we have an episode all about it. You can find it in our feed. That's it for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging.

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