Front Burner - What is Hezbollah?

Episode Date: November 1, 2023

As Israel’s ground war in Gaza escalates, there’s another conflict threatening to spill over. Israel and Hezbollah continue to exchange fire on the Lebanon border, stoking fears that a second front may open up. What is Hezbollah? Why does it present a growing threat to Israel? How could an escalating conflict between the two could spark a wider regional war? Journalist Rebecca Collard in Beirut explains. For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

Happy Holidays! I'm Frank Cappadocia, Dean of Continuous Professional Learning at Humber Polytechnic, and I'd like you to set a goal for 2025 to sharpen your skills and get promoted. Register for a professional designation, micro-credential, or certificate with Humber's Continuous Professional Learning and ignite your career journey this new year. Our experts deliver accelerated learning from resilience-based leadership to electric vehicle fundamentals in learning options that work with your ambitious lifestyle. Adapt, evolve, and excel. Go to humber.ca slash cpl to get started. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Damon Fairless.

As Israel's ground war in Gaza escalates, there's another conflict threatening to spill over. Well, explosions have been heard in southern Lebanon as bombardments continue between Israel and Hezbollah. Up to 60,000 people have already been displaced on the Lebanese side since the fighting began, with thousands more evacuated from their homes on the Israeli side too. Israel and Hezbollah continue to exchange fire on the Lebanon border, stoking fears that a second front in the country's north may open up. It's been the deadliest interaction since Israel and Hezbollah fought a major war back in 2006. You may have been hearing a lot about Hezbollah lately. Well, today we'll be talking about what Hezbollah is,

why it presents a growing threat to Israel, and how an escalating conflict between the two could spark a wider regional war. Journalist Rebecca Kohlert's in Beirut, and she's reported from Lebanon for many years. And she joins us now. Lebanon for many years, and she joins us now. Hey, Rebecca, thanks so much for coming on the show. Happy to be here. All right, so let's start with kind of the bare basics. What is Hezbollah? Well, Hezbollah literally translates into party of God in Arabic, and it's a militant group that was born in South Lebanon against Israel's occupation.

Today, it is likely the world's most capable military non-state actor, but it's also a political party here in Lebanon. And it's an organization that runs social programs and provides assistance as well. So let's talk about the other H word. How does Hezbollah differ from Hamas? I think mostly in its capability and its size. So, you know, we've been watching the destruction of the war between Israel and Hamas. And I think part of the reason there's so much concern about the second front is that Hezbollah is infinitely more capable militarily. It has tens of thousands of more fighters and much, much more sophisticated weaponry than Hamas has. Okay. So, Rebecca, in all the stories I've been reading about Hezbollah, it says the militant group is Tehran-backed. So I guess I'm curious, what does that mean? Is it

just that it's funded by Iran? What's the relationship there? Yeah, so really, since its inception, it has had support from Iran and from Iran's Revolutionary Guard, weapons, training, money. But I think there's a big misconception that Hezbollah somehow takes orders from Tehran. So, you know, since October 7th, there has been this kind of question about, first of all, what Hezbollah and Iran knew about Hamas' attack on October 7th, but also whether or not, you know, Iran is going to tell Hezbollah to start a war. And it's not, it doesn't operate like that. It's not that Tehran says jump and Hezbollah says how high. You know, they are part of this axis of resistance, you know, from Tehran all the way to Yemen. And we saw these attacks today

from the Houthi rebels in Yemen. These rockets fired towards Israel. The crew of the guided missile destroyer USS Carney operating in the northern Red Sea earlier today shot down three land attack cruise missiles and several drones that were launched by Houthi forces in Yemen. There were no casualties to U.S. forces and none that we know of to any civilians on the ground. In Iraq, there are, you know, Shia militias that are allied with Iran. In Syria, of course, the Syrian president Bashar al-Assad is allied with Iran. And then Hezbollah here in Lebanon, as I was saying, is the most capable, really, of those non-state actors. So, you know, there is this, what they call the axis of resistance, and there's obviously support,

but it is not the sort of relationship where Tehran tells Hezbollah what to do. So there's autonomy there from the sounds of it. What are the shared values or shared mandates, if that's the right word, for the members of the so-called axis of resistance? Yeah, that's a good question, Damon, and I think it's a little bit of a hard one to answer. I think, obviously, there is this idea of resistance, and mostly that means resistance to Israel, to Israeli occupation, to Israel's existence at some point. But also, I think this ideology against the U.S. presence or other foreign military presence

in the region, So in Syria, in Iraq, in Lebanon, in Israel, all these sort of places. I think the real shared kind of value is about this idea of resisting what they see as foreign interference in the region. So you mentioned a little earlier that Hezbollah is considered one of the world's strongest militias. What makes them so strong? Yeah, I think that's a good question. Obviously, it is partly the amount of support that they get from Iran. That is a big factor. But, you know, I also want to tell you this anecdote, something that I think about all the

time when I think about Hezbollah. In 2017, you know, Hezbollah, of course, had entered the war in Syria to back the Syrian president, to back the Syrian regime. And there was this village called Medea near the Lebanese border in Syria. And it was essentially under siege. People inside were starving. They were eating leaves. And I was talking to people inside the village about how difficult the situation was. And they told me, you know, this one man told me they had been under siege for years by the Syrian army, but they would be able to bribe the Syrian army. Now, the Syrian army is a conscript army. The soldiers in that army are poorly paid. They could bribe people to get things into the village. And then he said, you know, six months Hezbollah had taken over surrounding the village and that

they weren't corrupt, that they weren't bribable. And I think that gives you a bit of an indication of how differently this organization operates and partly why it is so much stronger, even than a lot of the national armies in this region, because there is this structure, because there is this ideology. So it isn't just firepower, so to speak, there's an organizational aspect to this, from what you're saying. Absolutely. And I think also the way that they're embedded in Lebanese society, and the fact that people, you know, people join Hezbollah because they want to join Hezbollah. It's not because they were conscripted into the army. There's an ideology about protecting Lebanon about,

you know, it started with the ending Israel's occupation of South Lebanon. So people join Hezbollah because they believe in that ideology as well. So where does Hezbollah operate from? How does it relate to Israel? Well, most of its operations are in South Lebanon. You know, that's, of course, where it was founded in response to the Israeli occupation of South Lebanon. You know, Israel came into Lebanon because Palestinian militant groups here were using the territory to fire rockets and make attacks against Israel. And so, you know, most of their operations are down there. And what we've seen over the last three weeks is really them firing rockets from South Lebanon into Israel. So they're really along that border with Israel. All right, so let's talk backstory. How did Hezbollah come to be? What are the origins?

So Hezbollah was formed in 1982 in response to Israel's occupation of South Lebanon with the help of Iran's Revolutionary Guard. As I said, you know, Israel entered Lebanon wanting to root out Palestinian militants who were using Lebanon to attack Israel. And, you know, in 1985, they put out their first manifesto of sorts. It's an open letter to the oppressed in Lebanon and the world. And it's really steeped in kind of anti-occupation and anti-colonial discourse. They talk about ending the Western presence here in Lebanon, and they talk about ending what they call the Zionist occupation of Palestine. But I think a really fundamental moment is in 1989. So, you know, when they're founded, Lebanon is amidst this sectarian civil war.

In 1989, that war is ended by something called the Taf Accords, and all of these sectarian militia leaders go to Saudi Arabia. They sign this agreement, and all the militias in Lebanon agree to disarm, to get rid of their weapons, except Hezbollah. Hezbollah is allowed to keep its weapons because of Israel's ongoing occupation of South Lebanon. And they say they need those weapons to push the Israelis out. And I will say, Damon, it's really important to understand that in the years and decades since, there have been numerous calls for Hezbollah to now disarm.

So if you think about it, it's kind of crazy because Hezbollah today is by far the strongest military actor in the country, crazy because Hezbollah today is by far the strongest military actor in the country, way more capable than the Lebanese army, despite the Lebanese army getting tons of support from the US, from Canada, from other Western countries. Hezbollah remains the strongest military force in the country. So what does Israel say about Hezbollah? What's Israel's take on this, you know, formidable force? Well, I mean, Israel obviously says that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, that it's a threat on its northern border, and that it's a threat to Israel's security. So tell me about Hezbollah's relationship with Lebanon. How does it operate politically? You mentioned this before, that it's more than a military organization. It's got a lot more going on. Give me a sense

of its political presence in the country. Yeah. So since the early 90s, it's actually been part in, it's had seats in Lebanon's parliament. So it is like a real political party here. But I think what's more interesting actually, Damon, is how it operates in Lebanon's weak state. So, you know, Lebanon has a sectarian system, which in theory was supposed to make sure that each of Lebanon's 18 sects, 18 religious groups had a seat at the table, and that was supposed to keep the peace because everybody had their say in government. Well, clearly, it didn't keep the peace. And it's also part of the reason that the Lebanese state is so weak. So, you know, in Canada, when we think about social services, we're talking usually about

the government, whether that's health or social assistance. But here in Lebanon, you know, in Canada, when we think about social services, we're talking usually about the government, whether that's health or social assistance. But here in Lebanon, you know, that doesn't really exist. So you have all these different sectarian political parties that use patronage to kind of keep their supporters and to kind of they act like small states within a state. Um, last week I was doing a story about Hezbollah and we actually went to this supermarket, uh, which is run by Hezbollah where people that, um, sign up for these, these special cards can actually access cheaper goods. And you go into the supermarket and there are pictures of all the Hezbollah leaders and, um, you know, past and present. There are, uh, Iranian and Syrian products even. And, you know, there's even a sign that says that you're not allowed to take photos.

And I think it's a really good illustration of how ingrained Hezbollah is here, but also how important patronage is not just to Hezbollah, but to all Lebanon's political parties. Now, you know, I've talked to analysts over the last week who've said it's not really true that Lebanon doesn't need this weak state, that it would be strong anyway because of this ideology of resistance. But the fact that the state is so weak, it's definitely played a big role in the way that Hezbollah has been able to operate militarily, because the army is so weak, but also, you know, politically and socially. Happy holidays. I'm Frank Cappadocia, Dean of Continuous Professional Learning at Humber Polytechnic. I'd like you to set a goal

to drive key learning for your people in 2025. I want you to connect with Humber CPL to design a custom training solution that accelerates your team's performance and engagement. Humber works with you to hone industry-specific upskilling, enhance your leadership, and drive results. Flexible learning delivery formats are tailored to your unique needs. Adapt, evolve, and excel. To learn more, go to humber.ca slash CPL.

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That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So what kind of support do folks in Lebanon have for Hezbollah? What's the general sense there? Yeah, so I mean, they have their kind of traditional Shia support base, people that have supported them from the beginning and continue to support them. But I think there's a number of things that have kind of changed the perception of Hezbollah in this country. So you know, after 2000, when the Israelis left, obviously,

they're seen as strong, they're seen as resistant, they're seen as fighting for the Lebanese people. But then you have, you know, 2006. and some people here feel that, you know, Hezbollah brought that war in Lebanon. And then you have, you know, Hezbollah entering the war in Syria to fight on the side of the Syrian regime, on the side of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. And I think that also changed some people's ideas about Hezbollah here in this country.

And then again in 2019, when you had this popular uprising against the sectarian leadership, a lot of those protesters felt that Hezbollah took the side of these kind of the sectarian ruling elite. So, you know, I think there's been a lot of things that have eroded their popularity over the years. But I also think this idea of resistance is still really important here. And I think in a time like this, where everybody in Lebanon is watching the bombardment of Gaza, this idea that Hezbollah is creating resistance to Israel is very popular here among a lot of people. I'm also curious about, you know, if you've got Hezbollah as the bigger, more formidable force in the country compared to the Lebanese military,

the proper state-backed military, what's the relationship like between Hezbollah and the Lebanese military? Yeah, I mean, that's tricky. So first of all, of course, as I said, Hezbollah is much more capable, but I don't think the Lebanese army is in any real position to counter anything Hezbollah does. And I think there was this idea from the U.S., other Western actors, and Canada that somehow they would bolster the Lebanese army and the Lebanese army would be able to counter the presence and power of Hezbollah. I would say

that really hasn't happened. And just while we're talking about, you know, military forces and Hezbollah, I think the other thing that we often forget is that there's also a UN peacekeeping force in South Lebanon. So that peacekeeping force has been there since the late 70s. You know, their mandate is to keep the peace. And obviously, they have not always been successful in that mission. But there's some 10,000 international peacekeepers in South Lebanon also operating in this environment. And I think that's also an important thing to remember. there. I want to go back to some of the more recent history you brought up. So this, the current salvo that's going over the border is the deadliest interaction between Israel and Hezbollah since 2006. So what do people need to understand about that war and how it left things in the region? Well, first of all, that here it's seen as a victory. So that war in 2006 was seen as a victory

for Hezbollah. I mean, on the Israeli side, there was a lot of criticism domestically of the way that war was handled. The latest polls show that Israelis are dissatisfied with their leaders, who are new to their posts and have no previous military experience. Two-thirds of people polled say that no one won this war. A greater number say they disagree with the government's decision to stop fighting before having freed two kidnapped Israeli soldiers, whose capture by Hezbollah last month sparked this conflict. I wouldn't say that it's seen as a loss, but I definitely think there was a lot of criticism of the way that Israel handled that I wouldn't say that it's seen as a loss, but I

definitely think there was a lot of criticism of the way that Israel handled that war. But here, it's definitely seen as a victory. So I think that's really important. But also, you know, since 2006, Hezbollah has vastly improved its military capability, vastly improved its military arsenal. And remember that, you know, they've also gained all of this fighting experience in Syria, fighting ISIS, fighting other militant groups. And so I think, you know, since 2006, they have improved their capability so much. And I think that's also part of the reason why a war now would be so dangerous. And dangerous for Lebanon, I guess what I'm curious about is that, as you know, you mentioned earlier that the government's not particularly capable right now. The economy's in

serious trouble. There's a lot of poverty. People can't get basic needs met. So what is at stake for Lebanon? Yeah, and I mean, I think that's really important to remember. Nobody, civilians here in Lebanon and the Lebanese government have no say in whether or not Hezbollah and Israel are going to war. That decision will be made by Hezbollah and Israel. But this country is in, I think, what the World Bank called possibly the worst financial crisis we've seen globally in 150 years. And I can just tell you anecdotally how much more expensive stuff has come here. All kinds of good food, services, everything. This country is economically devastated. And the difference, I think, if there was a war now,

there's two differences, I think, that relate to that economic position. So, you know, I was in the South this weekend talking to people that have already fled this cross-border fire, and we're already talking about more than 30,000 people. And I was talking to a municipal official there about, you know, 2006 versus now. In 2006, I think people had money and they were kind of generous and able to take people in. Now I'm not sure that that would be the case. People are so financially stretched. And I don't know how people would rebuild if we saw the sort of devastation in South Lebanon that we saw in 2006. I don't know how people would be able to rebuild their

homes. And I don't think, you know, the sort of international support that was here then for rebuilding South Lebanon, I don't think we would see that now. Before I let you go, one of the things I want to know is Hezbollah isn't the only armed threat to Israel. What other actors are in play at the border as well? Yeah, so you have a lot of Palestinian groups here, and some of them, of course, have armed wings as well. And over the last few weeks, we've been seeing them also strike Israel, send rockets into Israel. I will say two things about that.

First of all, you know, those actors, as far as military capability goes, are really small players. They're nothing compared to Hezbollah in a military conflict. I don't know if they would be a help or hindrance to Hezbollah. But second of all, nothing really happens in that area without Hezbollah's okay. So it's very likely that Hezbollah has authorized, has allowed those groups to send those rockets. I think that one of the things I find interesting too, is that considering, as you say, Hezbollah is a, it's well-armed, it's well-disciplined, and yet the attacks that have been launched over the border into Israel are fairly controlled, right? The sense, I think, that I'm reading at least is that this is enough to show presence, but not enough to invoke all-out war.

Why is that? What's the game plan there? You know, I wish that I could answer that. We're kind of in this constant conversation, experts and other journalists and people about what is going on, like what is the red line? Is there going to be a war? Isn't there going to be a war? And for a long time, we thought it was a ground invasion. But Hezbollah never really said that explicitly. And what we have seen, as you said, Damon, is like, over the last three weeks, it has been kind of contained, for the most part, within a few kilometers of the border. It's been rockets back and forth.

And it doesn't feel like Hezbollah wants to engage in a war. You know, it's difficult to say if there is some bigger strategy behind this. And I wouldn't want to, you know, say for sure that they didn't have some other kind of plan up their sleeve. But for the moment, it really doesn't seem like they want to. And the question is, what would make them actually open that second front? And, you know, some people think it could be if Hamas is really on the ropes, it looks like the organization is really going to be destroyed. But it's really difficult to say at this point, it doesn't seem like either party, Israel or Hezbollah, wants this war. But it's also, you know, this is a very tense time. When you're lobbing rockets back and forth,

anything is possible. And, you know, the last thing I'll say is, you know, who we haven't heard from in the last three weeks is Hassan Nasrallah. And he, of course, is the Hezbollah leader. He's known for his fiery speeches and criticism of Israel. And we haven't heard anything from him. We are going to hear from him on Friday. So we'll be watching that as well. All right, Rebecca, thanks so much. I really appreciate it. You're welcome. Over the weekend, the Canadian government warned its citizens in Lebanon to leave the country while they still could, before the fighting potentially intensified. That's all for today. I'm Damon Fairless.

Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. I'll talk to you tomorrow.