Front Burner - What kind of King will Charles be?

Episode Date: September 19, 2022

People in London waited in kilometres-long lines for the chance to pay their respects to Queen Elizabeth II, Britain's longest reigning monarch who died on Sept. 8, during her lying-in-state. Hundreds of leaders, dignitaries and royals travelled from around the world to attend her funeral. Queen Elizabeth II was just 25 when she took the throne in 1952. At 73, King Charles III — the Queen's son and longtime heir — is the oldest monarch to assume the British throne. Today on Front Burner, Stephen Bates, author and former religious affairs and royal correspondent for The Guardian, takes us through what's shaped King Charles's character and what his reign could mean for the future of the British monarchy.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. The coffin carrying the longest-serving monarch in the UK's history will make its way Monday to Westminster Abbey by procession, to a funeral attended by hundreds of world leaders, dignitaries, and royals. Later, Queen Elizabeth will be buried at Windsor Castle alongside her husband, Prince Philip.

She was just 25 years old when she took the throne in 1952. Now her son and longtime heir, King Charles, has taken her place at 73. Queen Elizabeth was a life well lived, a promise with destiny kept, and she is mourned most deeply in her passing. That promise of lifelong service I renew to you all today. Today we're going to talk about the kind of king that Charles might be, and the challenges he faces reigning in an era where the relevance of the monarchy continues to be questioned at home and abroad. Stephen Bates is here.

He's the author of The Shortest History of the Crown and a former religious affairs and royal correspondent for The Guardian. Hi, Stephen. Thank you very much for making the time today. You're very welcome. It's a pleasure to have you. So I know this is maybe not the most significant thing we're going to talk about today, but I wonder if we could start by talking about that viral video that was making the rounds recently of Charles III with like a leaky pen getting the date wrong during a signing ceremony in Northern Ireland. Is it September 12th? 13th, sir.

Oh God, I'm groggy. 13th? Yes, sir. December 12th, 13th. I have to say personally, I thought that I would never have anything in common with King Charles, but I related to this in a very big way. But how about you, having spent so much time getting to know him as a journalist, what did you make of this moment? Yeah, I think we've all had a pen malfunction incident, as they probably call it. Oh, God, I hate this.

Oh, look, it's going up in my face. Does anybody know what's wrong with that? Where is the lamp? Oh, there it is. Bloody hell. What are we doing? It's stinking. I thought it was pardonable in all the circumstances.

He's been under a lot of pressure. He's suddenly thrust into the limelight in a way he hasn't been before very much. And he's mourning the death of his mother, and he's a man of 73. So I think on this occasion, you can probably forgive a quick burst of exasperation when a pen leaks when you're signing an official document. On the wider point of what it says about his character, he's known to be a bit grumpy, a bit testy, easily aggravated. He's going to have to curb that. Otherwise, there will be much worse incidents than a pen leaking on his hand so we'll see we'll see how he goes and uh as a sidebar notice how camilla

quickly stepped in and took the pen off him yeah i think that was quite a human moment for the royal couple and shows, A, how much he depends on Camilla, and B, how prepared she is to take on unforeseen incidents. Talking about his character, tell me more about how you would describe Charles's character. Well, he's a well-meaning man. He is intelligent. He's quite highly strung. He's had an awfully long time waiting for this job. Princess Elizabeth and Prince Philip spend a happy afternoon with the world's most famous baby. These are the first newsreel pictures taken since his christening of Prince Charles, now eight months old. since his christening of Prince Charles, now eight months old. He was three when his mother came to the throne,

and he is now 73 as he ascends the throne. He's been the longest-waiting heir to the throne in history, and he is now the oldest person to accede to the British throne. These are important factors in his current situation and possibly indicators of how he'll behave in future because his reign will obviously be a lot shorter than his mother's. He is a man of fierce passions. He has not been afraid to speak out publicly and privately about issues about which he cares. He's steered clear of partisan politics, but issues like the environment. What we're experiencing now will be, I mean, as nothing to the problems. The difficulties in 2008 with the financial crash, that was a banking crisis.

But we're now facing the real possibility of nature's bank going bust. Like natural medicine, like modern architecture. Not only did they wreck the London skyline in general, they also did their best to lose the Great Dome in a jostling scrum of office buildings. So mediocre, the only way you ever remember them is by the frustration they induce, like a basketball team standing shoulder to shoulder

between you and the Mona Lisa. We all know where he stands on those things here. He's going to have to button his lip a little bit as king. But by and large, he's working with a popular vein in what he thinks about certainly the environment. He's been speaking about green issues for very many years now. He reckons his first speech on the subject was in 1970. We are faced at this moment with the horrifying effects of pollution in all its cancerous forms. There is the growing menace of oil pollution at sea.

There is air pollution from smoke and fumes discharged by factories and from gases pumped out by endless cars and aeroplanes. So half a century, his mother, as her last act two days before she died, invited Liz Truss, the new leader of the Conservative Party, to assume the office of Prime Minister and form a government. She is on the right of the Conservative Party. She has packed it with right-wingers in the Conservative Party, and a number of them are very sceptical about environment and man-made changes to the environment. So it will be interesting to see if in the current economic crisis,

she puts a stop to measures to reduce climate change, how he reacts to that and how publicly he reacts to it. Well, talking about these passions, he has in the past been somewhat criticized for lobbying or making policy demands of the government, right? I'm thinking about the Black Spider memos. Can you tell me about what happened there? He's made a habit of writing sometimes quite deeply personal and critical letters to ministers, often late at night, in handwriting. It's that leaky fountain pen again.

Long, long screeds of scrawled, handwritten notes about things he's seen or things he suddenly starts feeling strongly about. And those are the Black Spider memos, which some ministers have taken exception to receiving because they feel it's a form of privileged lobbying. He thinks that the memos are just drawing ministers' attention to things they may not have thought about before, which he feels passionately ought to be noticed. One exchange that I'm looking at right here between Elliot Morley and Prince Charles. Incidentally, I'm also looking forward to the publication of the Royal Commission's report on sustainable fishing. I hear on my own grapevine that it may be quite hard hitting, which can only be a good thing. And I just hope that the powers that be and the general public take note of its findings. So this is Prince Charles. There is a tension there. I doubt that the memos will actually cease,

but he might be more careful about how he couches them. While his mother was widely adored, Charles has been less popular. And I wonder if we could talk a little bit about why that is. Well, I think it all stems back to what happened over his first marriage to Princess Diana. Charles and Diana, now man and wife, move up to the high altar for the blessing. A kiss which receives a roar of approval from the crowd who call the couple back and back again onto the balcony. It's hard to argue with half a million people who know what they want.

And the way that marriage fell apart in the 1990s. Did you try to be faithful and honourable to your wife when you took on the vow of marriage? Yes. Absolutely.

And you were? Yes. Until it became irretrievably broken down. When they got married in 1981, it was regarded very much as a fairy tale marriage. As we all know, it didn't work out. And it didn't work out for a number of reasons. Both of them embarked on affairs Charles with Camilla his old girlfriend who of course is now his wife. Mrs Barger-Bells is a great friend of mine I have a large number of friends I'm terribly lucky to have

and she has been a friend for a very long time, along with a lot of other friends, and will continue to be a friend for a very long time. And it all ended in that terrible tragedy in Paris in 1997. Confirmation that Diana, Princess of Wales, has in fact been killed in that car accident in Paris just a few hours ago. There had been extreme concern. There was a lot of ill feeling and anger about Charles and indeed Camilla in their role in breaking up the marriage. One thing I wanted to ask you about, Netflix is the crown. It's a really popular show. I've watched all the seasons so far. And while I think there are moments when Charles is younger, you feel for the character. I can't say older Charles is among the more endearing characters.

I hug who I love, particularly when they are affected by the selfishness of others and need cheering up. Who are you referring to? Camilla. Why would I care about her? Because I care about her! You know, I also saw the movie about Diana with Kristen Stewart. And, like, frankly, he comes off as really awful in that movie. And what role do you think his portrayal in popular culture plays here?

Well, I have to say that I haven't seen all The Crown or indeed the Diana film. I think it's quite easy to blame him. There was a problem with the marriage right from the start in that they scarcely knew each other they had very different interests and she was very much interested very much younger than he was can you find the words to sum up how you feel today both of you difficult to find right sort of word isn't it really just delighted and unhappy and i'm amazed that she's been brave enough to take me on. And I suppose in love. Of course.

Whatever in love means. It obviously means two very happy people. So, if you'd looked at it dispassionately 30 or 40 years ago, you would have probably decided that it was not a marriage made in heaven.

Now, for the royals, that usually didn't matter too much because most royal marriages up to that point were arranged marriages, essentially, with another member of another royal family or at least someone from the aristocracy. member of another royal family, or at least someone from the aristocracy. And Diana, of course, came from the ancient British aristocracy. It's noticeable that both William and Harry have not followed that route. They have married for love. They've married people they've got to know pretty well before they got married.

So things have changed. And I think the failure of Charles and Diana's marriage has quite a lot to do with that. I love you. Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. their own household income. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. When we look at Charles's popularity, when people look at him unfavorably, is it just because of the marriage, or are there other things too, you think? He's not a particularly warm or empathetic person. He needs to work on that, as don't we all from time to time. I don't think he's

naturally empathetic. He has that old baggage of what happened in the past to live down. And we will see. We will see how positively he is able to interact with ordinary people. So on that note, what about criticisms that he is out of touch with ordinary people? So just last week, some of his staff were sent a notice that their jobs may be redundant when he takes his mother's place at Buckingham Palace. And you mentioned earlier that the country is really in economic turmoil right now. There's an energy crisis, soaring food. I remember earlier this year, too, he was really mocked quite a bit on social media for giving a speech about easing people's financial burdens. But he was delivering this speech from a golden throne. Her Majesty's government's priority is to grow and strengthen the economy

and help ease the cost of living for families. Well, yes, the look is everything, isn't it? I agree absolutely that the issuing of redundancy notices was an appalling mistake, particularly at this time, particularly with staff who were working very hard on the transition from his role as Prince of Wales to becoming King. I suspect it was done thoughtlessly. How much he was consulted about it, I don't know. But it's certainly a black mark at the start of his reign. Whether it's the sort of gaffe that we'll have to come to expect from him,

I don't know. It's the sort of gaffe that we'll have to come to expect from him. I don't know. If it is, then I think the monarchy will be in quite a lot of problems. And then I guess I don't want this to sound like too obvious a question, but when you say that then the monarchy will be in quite a lot of problems, I'm assuming what you're referring to here is, you know, waning popularity, right? And like, why is popularity so important in the monarchy, if they're not enthusiastic about it, then that's the beginning of the rocky path down towards abolition. You've seen that in the crowds that have been coming out. About two-thirds of the population in Britain support a monarchy or are at least positive about it rather than indifferent to it.

So it's not an immediate danger. But the things that really damage the monarchy are things which show a sense of entitlement, a sense of not knowing the country or how people live. Charles, he does and has lived in a bubble as much as he's tried to find out about the country, find out how people live. He doesn't really appreciate it, I suspect, because he's never lived it for himself. And I think that's a pretty grave failing.

Now, the Queen always said that she had to be seen to be believed. If you don't show yourself, people get indifferent and you lose popularity. So he will have to be out and about on a very regular basis. And he has to show that when he meets people, they get him and like him, and he can understand them. And that remains a bit of a question mark. The monarchy is also increasingly being held accountable for its role in the violence of colonialism, including slavery. Barbados dropped the queen as head of state. Jamaica's prime minister says they want to cut ties with the monarchy. And how do you expect

Charles will handle these very difficult conversations? Well, the monarchy's position hasn't changed really over recent decades. If countries want to drop the monarchy, become republics, that's okay. That's their choice. That's what they're perfectly entitled to do. It doesn't mean they shed their bonds with the Commonwealth. They remain part of the Commonwealth. And they're a brother nation or a sister nation, I suppose. So that is not a big issue as far as the royal family are concerned. They long ago decided that democracy was what was going to happen in the countries. So that's that.

Whether reparations are paid for slavery is really a matter for the government. It's going to be very difficult if a British government exceeds to the demands for reparations. a British government accedes to the demands for reparations, it's going to be very difficult to work out what is owed and how it is owed. Charles has reportedly wanted to slim down and restructure the royal family. And what might that look like? Well, it's not been entirely clear. The royal family seems to be slimming down itself, really, because Harry and Meghan have dropped their royal duties and gone off to live in California. Prince Andrew is disgraced and not allowed to carry out any public duties anymore. not allowed to carry out any public duties anymore. Buckingham Palace has announced that Prince Andrew is returning his royal and military titles to the Queen. It comes after a court ruling in the US yesterday, which left the

Prince facing a civil case later this year against Virginia Giuffre, who says she was sexually assaulted by him two decades ago when she was a teenager. So that puts quite a burden on the remaining inner core of the royal family. And they are going to need other people to help them out on royal appearances and royal duties. Maybe that means fewer royal visits, fewer trips around the world, especially at the moment when that tends to look quite extravagant. Is it fair to say that the future of the monarchy is now in Charles's hands? Or do you think that no matter what he does, no matter how popular or unpopular he is during his reign, the monarchy will survive?

Well, the future of the monarchy is very much in his hands. If he messes up and alienates people, then it could switch, and people would start looking for an alternative form of government. I suspect that he has a sufficient intelligence and knowledge of his position constitutionally and some knowledge of his position constitutionally, that he will be pretty careful with two-thirds of the population in Britain in favour of monarchy. He would have to go quite hard to change that around, but it wouldn't take too many Prince Andrews or that sort of magnitude of mistake, if you can call it that, for the popularity of the institution to suffer greatly. But I still

suspect that Charles will eventually be succeeded by his son William, who will be William V. Stephen, thank you so much for this. Thank you very much. It's good to speak to you, Jamie. All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening and talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.