Front Burner - What to expect from Trump's 'hush money' trial

Episode Date: April 25, 2024

Donald Trump's first of four criminal trials is underway in New York, where he is accused of improperly disclosing money supposedly paid to adult film star Stormy Daniels in 2016 to cover up an alleged affair. It's the first time a former U.S. president has been tried criminally.Washington Post court reporter Shayna Jacobs has been covering the trial. She walks us through what the court has heard in the opening week, what to expect as the prosecution builds its case, and how the defense plans to counter it.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. Former U.S. President Donald Trump is on trial in a Manhattan courtroom right now. It's the first time in American history a former president has faced criminal charges.

The current presumptive Republican nominee has been accused of improperly disclosing money that he allegedly paid the adult film star Stormy Daniels during his 2016 campaign to keep quiet about an alleged affair. This is the so-called hush money case. He's pleaded not guilty and has been railing against what he says is a witch hunt. This is what took me off and takes me off the campaign trail because I should be in Georgia now. I should be in Florida now. I should be in a lot of different places right now campaigning and I'm sitting here.

And this will go on for a long time. It's very unfair. The judge is conflicted, as you know. If convicted, it is possible that Trump could serve prison time. Today, my guest is Shana Jacobs. She's a court reporter with the Washington Post and has been sitting in the Manhattan courthouse where the trial is unfolding. Shana is going to catch us up on what's been happening so far and where the case is headed. Shana, hey, thanks so much for being here. Hi, thank you for having me. So you've been there, you've been at the courthouse.

I just wonder, what's it been like? What's the scene been like the last several days? There's definitely an energy in the area and in the building. I mean, if you were to walk by the courthouse on a trial day, you would see dozens of camera crews, photographers, people who are just rubbernecking because they're walking by a spectacle. And, you know, inside there's,

I mean, it's a very old building, by the way, and it has a ton of construction scaffolding around it. So it's really a little disorienting between the crowds and roadblocks, the barricades to keep people sort of funneling in one direction or the other. So that's just outside, inside the courthouse. I mean, the 15th floor is just, I guess, like a security zone. You can't get through um you can't get up to the 15th floor without first going through security on the first floor and then there's a second round of security very similar to a tsa uh airport search uh maybe even a little more intrusive because they go through pockets and whatnot and it you know it's just it's kind of, it's just, it's kind of a, there's a buzz. It's, uh, there's maybe a

little bit of anxiety in the air. Everyone, you know, it's a high pressure situation for everyone, reporters, court staff, security. It's everyone's just sort of on their toes waiting to see what happens next. I mean, there was an incident last week where, you know, a man committed suicide. Yes. In the park, right? I mean, in front of a million cameras. Video capturing a man setting himself on fire in the park area reserved for protesters. Bright orange flames engulfing his body. A bunch of cameras crews were still out there. It was, I mean, we were still inside in the courtroom, but there's a feeling that sort of anything could happen at any moment.

So there's also a little bit of anxiety, I think, related to that. So this trial is one of just four major ongoing cases against Trump, which is really quite something when you think about it. Right. But this one is specifically about money that Trump is accused of having paid the adult film star Stormy Daniels to keep quiet about an affair they allegedly had. But that sort of thing isn't illegal in itself, right? Correct. Absolutely correct. That's common. NDAs, non-disclosure agreements, are common in personal situations and in business situations with nothing nefarious going on underneath it. The problem, according to prosecutors, is that Trump did it in such a way that he concealed the nature of those payments and did not report it as a campaign expense when it should have been reported as a campaign expense.

That's the theory. So he was hiding it from voters and his, you know, in the process was at least aiming to commit a campaign, a state campaign finance violation. It's the underlying crime to the falsifying business records. And sorry, just to be clear, like why would this be a campaign expense in the first place? They didn't get too deeply into that theory yet. But my understanding is that their take on this, prosecution's take on this, is that anything that benefits the campaign or anything that, you know, I mean, this clearly keeping Stormy Daniels' story out of the news

in 2016 while Trump was running for office was a good thing for his campaign. And so, you know, per the district attorney's theory, this was clearly something that should have been on a campaign disclosure form and wasn't. I was listening a little bit to the prosecution's opening arguments earlier this week, and it seemed to me like they were trying to establish a pattern, right, of Trump covering up negative press, especially around women. And just talk to me a little bit more about that and, you know, where it fits in. That's so important to their case because their case in a lot of ways is circumstantial. The key witness who's going to say that Trump directed the payments of Stormy Daniels and directed the cover-up of that payment is Michael Cohen. The man who once said he'd take a bullet for Donald Trump.

I'll do anything to protect Mr. Trump. But now Michael Cohen says he's going to prison in part because of the work he did for Trump. After pleading guilty to illegally paying hush money to silence two women who claim to have had sexual relationships with the president. I am ashamed of my weakness and my misplaced loyalty of the things I did for Mr. Trump in an effort to protect and promote him. He's convicted. He's a liar.

He just was not much of an attorney, that I will tell you. At the end of the day, Donald Trump needs to be held accountable for his dirty deeds. Who is, you know know something of a problematic witness because he's served jail prison time federal prison time for lying to congress among other things including this similar you know campaign finance fraud in federal venue related to the stormy daniels issue uh so cohen being the the guy who's going to say that who might have some credibility issues you know that their case would be helped by building a case around that by building context uh so that's what they're aiming to do they're building a pattern of behavior

of trump and his advisors trying to shut down stories including related to women other women like playboy model karen mcdal, who's expected to be a witness as well. This is all part of a scheme in the prosecution's case. So the scheme, the existence of this scheme, is what they believe will support Michael Cohen's testimony about Trump's direct involvement. There needs to be intent on Trump's behalf, and they need someone to paint that picture for the jury. And talk to me a little bit about what the defense is trying to argue here. So obviously, one of the things that they're going to be going for, and I think they're

already kind of going there in their opening statements, right, is that Michael Cohen is an unreliable witness. And so how else are they trying to kind of poke holes in the prosecution's case here? So very, like, top of the list, I think, for them is that Cohen can't be trusted for anything. And they're going to do their very best to make him look like a complete liar, somebody who's not trustworthy at all, and also somebody who's been obsessed with Trump since even before he began working for him. They are going to argue that the DA has stretched the reality of the situation, that any payment to Stormy Daniels was not an effort to shut down negative stories during the

campaign, that it was a personal matter, and that Trump was on the sidelines, that this was all done by Michael Cohen. Michael Cohen, who by his own admission in previous case, and you know, it's pretty obvious, he's making, he's sort of making a living, a second living. He's a disbarred attorney, but he's making a second living as as a Trump critic, essentially. This is not about Donald Trump versus Michael Cohen or Michael Cohen versus Donald Trump. This is about accountability. He's got books that are either entirely focused on his relationship with Trump or partially focused on it. He does a podcast. This is Michael Cohen, and you're listening to the one and only Mayor Culper podcast. Now on the Mighty Minds. Where he talks extensively about Trump. He's tweeting sometimes

all day about Trump. He's got, you know, the defense is going to say he's got a motive to keep the story going. He's got even got a motive to keep the story going. He's got even a financial motive to keep the story going. Right. That essentially he went from Trump's former fixer and lawyer to, you know, full time Trump critic. And that's where he's getting his livelihood from. Right. He's a professional Trump defector, essentially. connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some

startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Cups. I want to talk to you now a little bit more about the first witness at this trial. So Michael Cohen hasn't testified yet, but David Pecker has.

And he's a former publisher of the tabloid, The National Enquirer. And so this was the publication that was caught up in the catch and kill scheme. And so this was the publication that was caught up in the catch and kill scheme. Pecker said Trump used the tabloid to catch and kill negative stories about him and run hit jobs on his rivals like Hillary Clinton and Ted Cruz. And what did he tell the court about his relationship with Donald Trump? It was a pretty broad strokes description, but he testified that he met Trump in the late 1980s. They were buddies. They sort of helped each other. It sounded like, you know, Trump was a source for him and helped him sell magazines for years. And when it came down to Trump's 2016 campaign, Pecker saw an opportunity to assist him and the campaign by killing any negative stories that came across his desk, by tipping off Michael Cohen on behalf of Trump to anything

negative that was in the mix at the National Enquirer. He explained that women are often trying to sell negative stories about men, famous men, rich men to him, to the National Enquirer, and that he would look out specifically for that, which is kind of where the Karen McDougal aspect of this story came in. And, you know, he explained that he agreed to do this for Trump. He wanted to do this for Trump because it would also help him and his, I guess, magazine sales. Pecker admitting today the Inquirer made up a story linking Cruz's father to the man who assassinated JFK. All I did is point out the fact that on the cover of the National Inquirer, there was a picture of him and crazy Lee Harvey Oswald having breakfast. Now, Ted never denied that it was his father. Instead, he said, Donald Trump, I had nothing to do with it. He kind of sounded more like an advertiser than a journalist, in a way, right? Oh, sure. I mean, he admitted that he said that straight up that they pay

sources. I mean, it doesn't even sound like there's usually vetting of those sources or or of the stories. Not journalism. He called it he called it checkbook journalism, but it is absolutely not journalism. And it's not it is not acceptable. And, you know, at any credible news publication, checkbook journalism, not a thing. Right. Right. Exactly. publication. Checkbook journalism, not a thing. Right, right, exactly. You know, I know he's not done on the stand yet, but what have we heard so far about, you know, how he, you know, says he essentially caught and killed stories for Trump? So one of the main thing we heard so far is about

this former Trump Tower doorman who was trying to sell the Inquirer a story about Trump fathering a love child with a maid in the building in Trump Tower. That turned out to be false. But Kecker told the jury that he actually paid this man to keep it out of the news, to keep it out of circulation, paid him $30,000, which he said is way more than he pays for most sources, most stories. And that was because it was a really negative story about Trump that would have really hurt the campaign. And he actually said if that had gotten out, it would have been bigger for them than the death of Elvis Presley, interestingly. So yeah, that guy later went on to write a book about it. Nobody has ever given credibility to that story. It's pretty

much widely accepted that it had no merit. It was completely false. And then sort of beyond that story about the doorman, I know he's talked a little bit about the Karen McDougal story. And tell me a bit about that. And then has he gotten yet to Stormy Daniels? He's not gotten yet to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal came before Stormy. So he has started to set up the way the Karen McDougal piece of this happened by telling us that he told Trump that Karen McDougal, through her lawyer, Pete Davidson, was shopping around the story and that one of his editors at the National Enquirer got that tip from the lawyer. So he tipped off Trump that this story was even floating around, And the story being that he had a lengthy affair

with Karen McDougal. I mean, the timeline shows that if this affair actually happened, which I believe he denies and still denies, it was happening around the time that Melania Trump was pregnant with Barron. So, this Karen McDougal story was floating around

and Pecker asked the editor to go interview her to vet it in california so based on that interview pecker advised trump that it would be smart to pay this woman off we will wait i believe we will hear later that pecker ended up paying her off for a significant sum 150 grand i believe 150 000 I believe, $150,000. And that, you know, Trump was supposed to pay him back for that and didn't. So that's going to, I think, come into play. That is setting up the context of how Michael Cohen directly ended up paying Stormy Daniels.

This is all part of the pattern that they're trying to establish before they get to the actual, you know, alleged crime part. Exactly. It's painting the picture of motive on behalf of Trump and Cohen. What's Trump been doing through all of this? Like, how has he been reacting to this testimony? Like, what's he like in the courtroom? He's been mostly attentive, some facial expressions, sometimes, you know, sometimes shaking his head a little bit. It's not it hasn't been anything dramatic. It hasn't been anything that at least through Pecker's testimony got him scolded by the judge. He's in the past been scolded by judges for inappropriate courtroom behavior. You know, and if he does that

in front of a jury it's not going to go over well with judge mershon so i think he's more or less behaving himself he's venting in the hallway when he steps out for breaks and before he leaves or before he enters the courtroom he steps out and vents sometimes at length to some reporters who are, you know, in a hallway pool and are, you know, able to shout some questions at him. That check's being paid to a lawyer. He is a lawyer or was a lawyer. And also the things he got in trouble for were things that had nothing to do with me. He got in trouble.

He went to jail. This had nothing to do with me. This had to do. He went to jail. This had nothing to do with me. This had to do with the tax... He's definitely not thrilled to be there. He clearly thinks this is completely meritless and it's all part of a, as you said, dozens and dozens of times. He's claiming that this, the case itself,

is an attempt to influence the election. And then related to that, there was a heated moment in court earlier this week right around gag order, basically the court trying to limit the extent to which Trump is publicly sharing his opinion, right? And just tell me a little bit more about what happened there. The intent of the gag order is to protect people involved in the case who might become a target of his vitriol and anger and you know he sometimes fixates on people like regular people court staff people like that so this gag order is intended to protect court staff jurors witnesses members of the

prosecution team and their families and it was amended to include the families of Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg and of the judge as a judge's family. And that it was prompted by Trump's public fixation on the judge's daughter, who professionally does work for many Democratic campaigns. who professionally does work for many Democratic campaigns. That's the main talking point for the defense since long before the trial began, that the judge should be stepping down because he has a conflict. And the judge has said twice in formal decisions that he's absolutely able to be fair, that he asked an independent committee to evaluate whether he has a conflict that would necessitate his recusal. That committee came back and said, no, you know, we have confidence that you are perfectly capable of overseeing this case.

But that has not stopped Trump and the Trump team from pushing the agenda that the judge himself is incapable of being fair. Now, does the judge this week, did the judge seem to feel like Trump was abiding by this gag order? He hasn't really shown his hand yet, except for during Tuesday's gag order hearing, where he showed frustration at Trump's attorney, Todd Blanche, because Todd Blanche kept arguing that Trump is only responding to these witnesses because Michael Cohen is out there talking about him, talking about Trump in the case every day. Stormy Daniels, who just released a documentary, entirely focused on her role in this scandal. When I met Trump, he had told me he never wanted to be president, but then Trump got the Republican nomination. And that's when got real. All I had to do was sign this piece of paper to keep it quiet.

Is also talking about him publicly, that he's responding to them, that Trump is only responding to them and that it's protected political speech and that, you know, he has a right to do it as a as a candidate and also that it doesn't violate the order because he's not the reasons were sort of unclear but he todd blanche has argued that the that trump's posts is through social posts don't violate the order but the judge was extremely irked and frustrated, which was evident when he, you know, he said, you're losing, he told Todd Blanche, you're losing credibility with me, you know, with these arguments. You're telling me that Trump is only responding to Michael Cohen, Stormy Daniels, but give me one example of a time when one of his true social posts was in response to a Michael Cohen

comment or Stormy Daniels comment and Blanche didn't have any specific examples. Huh. It's interesting. It did not seem like the hearing was going their way, but we also don't yet have the judge's decision. Shaina, just before we go today, you know, obviously, as you just mentioned, we're waiting on the gag order order. You talked about before how Michaelael cohen is going to testify what else uh might we be looking out for or what are you looking out for in in the coming days as this trial continues to unfold so i think there will be other witnesses for top of the list michael

cohen stormy daniels although we don't know the order yet. Karen McDougal is likely to testify. Former advisors possibly might testify. The jury was given a long list of people to make sure they had no conflicts. And on that list is Kellyanne Conway, who was very prominent during the Trump administration as an advisor. Hope Hicks, who's a communications person, both before Trump's election and after, you know, some lawyers and other people involved. This is not necessarily a witness list, but it is a list of names that will come up. It's possible that the doorman might testify.

I think people from the Trump organization who handled finances might take the stand. And what about Trump? It is way too far in advance to predict whether Trump's going to testify, and we may not ever be able to predict it. I mean, it is usually very frowned upon by defense lawyers to put their client on the stand. They have to be really confident that their story is ironclad, that they'll do well, and that, you know, they're going to come across well in front of the jury. Trump in the past has vowed and his lawyers have vowed that

he would testify in other cases. He, in two instances, at least, he said, yeah, he said affirmatively, you know, outside of court that he was going to testify. You know, even on the record in court, he said that in a recent civil case. And then he decided not to or his lawyers, you know, killed the idea. So, yeah, talked him out of it. Even if he says, even if we get to the defense case and we're told that Trump's going to testify, you know, there's a lot of reason to doubt that that will actually happen. Chana, thank you so much for this. I learned a lot. It was really interesting. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks for having me. All right, so before we go, just want to note here that this is one of four criminal indictments against Donald Trump.

He's also been charged with illegally hoarding classified documents, and he's facing two separate cases involving an alleged plot to overturn the results of the 2020 election, one federally and one in the state of Georgia. Dates have not been set for any of those other trials. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.