Front Burner - What's behind massive anti-Netanyahu protests in Israel?

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

Over the weekend, tens of thousands marched in the streets of Tel Aviv to protest against the Israeli government. This particular protest was calling for early elections and a hostage deal now. Demonstrations similar to the one over the weekend have been a regular occurrence across Israel for months now.Today on Front Burner, Amir Tibon on how representative these protests are of broader Israeli sentiment, and what that says about Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s grip on power. He’s the diplomatic correspondent for Haaretz in Tel Aviv.For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. Over the weekend, thousands of people marched in the streets of Tel Aviv to protest against the Israeli government. This particular protest was calling for early elections and an immediate hostage deal. While demands vary somewhat,

demonstrations like this one have been pretty regular for months now, not just in Tel Aviv, but right across Israel. So today, we wanted to take a look at just how representative they are, a broader Israeli sentiment. How are Israelis really feeling about the war and a potential ceasefire agreement? How firm is Netanyahu's grip on power? To tackle this, I am joined by Amir Tibon. He's the diplomatic correspondent for Haaretz, and we have reached him in Tel Aviv. Hi, Amir. Thank you so much for making

the time today and coming on to the show. Thank you for having me. So for months now, there have been these regular protests in Tel Aviv and across Israel from Haifa to Jerusalem to Caesarea. There was a big one, as I mentioned, on Saturday in Tel Aviv. And can you just give me a sense of how big these protests have been and what their focus is? Yes, the protests here in Israel have been growing significantly in recent weeks. And there are several kinds of protests taking place, and they don't all feature the same message. Some of the demonstrations are more focused on the issue of our hostages. We still have officially 120 people held by the enemy, held by Hamas terrorists in Gaza. And we assume that approximately half of them are alive. And there's a big focus on calling on the government, demanding the government to bring about their release.

There are demonstrations that touch on this issue, but also at the same time demand the dissolution of the government and a new election in light of the catastrophic failures of the Netanyahu government as we saw them on October 7, when Hamas attacked Israel and we were caught unprepared. We need a change. We need a change that will start from the government and down to change the situation, to release the hostages as soon as possible. And then there are also demonstrations that specifically are calling for an end of the war in Gaza, which are smaller. I have to say they are smaller, but they are also growing. The government and its war is slaughtering Palestinians and also our hostages. And Netanyahu and his government don't want the hostages back.

We're here to make them, bring them back. And this, first of all, begins with ending the war. In the beginning of the war, more than eight months ago, there was very, very widespread support for the war in light of October 7. And I think that over time, as we are now more than eight months into this, some people are changing their mind on this and are thinking that perhaps now is the right time to stop. And this, again, connects to the hostage issue, because a lot of people realize that the best way to bring about a hostage agreement right now is a deal that would also

include the end of the war. This idea that the people are changing their minds on ending the war, can you tell me more about that? Like, how big is that group? We see in public opinion polls from recent days that there is support for the kind of agreement that President Biden presented about two and a half weeks ago that would include the end of the war in return for the release of all the Israeli and foreign national hostages from the hands of Hamas. It's time to begin this new stage. For the hostages to come home. For Israel to be secure. For the suffering to stop. It's time for this war to end. And I'm not sure that would have been the case maybe two or three months ago.

And there are several reasons for this change in public opinion. I think some of it has to do with the status of the hostages, the fact that it's been so many months and we know some of them have died in captivity. Right. This is one element of it. And the second element is the sense that what we have achieved in the war so far, if we are serious about the long-term goal of dismantling Hamas, it could take years and the hostages don't have years. So it could be also a moment to reconsider the priorities and give precedence to one issue or to one goal of the war over the other. There has been a very vocal criticism from some of the hostage families that Netanyahu has been

playing politics over this issue. What is your message to the leaders of Israel, to the leaders of Hamas? I would beg the leaders to act like leaders. And part of being a leader is you put your people ahead of your own personal self-interest. Some analysts writing for your paper have even said that he is actively avoiding a hostage deal and is sabotaging talks. And tell me a little bit more about what's going on there. There is a big debate going on in Israel about why we don't have a hostage deal yet. And a lot of people are blaming it mostly on Hamas. This is also what we've heard from the American administration. So the only party that has not accepted,

the only party that's not said yes, is Hamas. That Hamas keeps bringing new demands and insisting and shifting the parameters for an agreement. And there are also a lot of people, including from within the Israeli security system, who are saying that Netanyahu also shares some of the blame. And in my personal analysis, both sides have a point. And this is a very complicated issue, so I'll try to explain. Hamas, since the beginning, has had one main demand for a hostage deal, which is ending the war. Netanyahu has said again and again that he will not agree to end the war, because he's committed to dismantling Hamas as a result of the horrific massacre that they committed on October 7.

We have gone a long way to return the hostages while keeping the war's objectives in mind, primarily the elimination of Hamas. We insist that we will achieve both. It's all part of the plan, not something I've just added. What the American administration has tried to do is to come up with a formula in which Israel does not come out and publicly, you know, black on white, ink on paper, say we are ending the war. But it's very easy to understand if you read between the lines that the agreement, assuming all the hostages are released, will bring about the end of the war. It's a complicated text that describes a diplomatic deal in several phases. And the Americans are telling Hamas through the

mediators, which are Egypt and Qatar, two countries that have a lot of influence on Gaza. They're telling Hamas, you're not going to get a verbal, clear Israeli commitment to end the war. But if you read the document, clearly, it will lead to an end of the war. Hamas, and especially the group's leader inside Gaza, Yigyeh Sinwar, who is the architect of the October 7 massacre, they are saying, we want this clear Israeli commitment, and we are not going to accept anything else. Only this kind of commitment. In Beirut, we spoke to senior Hamas leader Osama Hamdan, one of the few privy to details of the ceasefire negotiations.

We said it's a positive step, but we need to see the facts on the ground. We need to know what exactly the president means by saying a ceasefire, a withdrawal. We need an Israeli, a clear position from Israel to accept the ceasefire, a complete withdrawal from Gaza and let the Palestinians to determine their future by themselves. And that's where we're stuck right now. Right. And we can argue who holds more of the blame. Personally, I think Hamas holds more of the blame. They are the ones who kidnapped these people to begin with, including two of my friends and neighbors in Kibbutz Nachal Oz, my home, a small community on the border with Gaza. my home, a small community on the border with Gaza. But I also accept the criticism that our government could have handled this issue in a smarter and more efficient way and reach better results by this point in time.

What about the argument that Netanyahu doesn't necessarily want to reach an end to the war because of his own political considerations, because he would like to remain in power. And you also hear people argue that he would like to avoid criminal prosecution for, I believe, his corruption charges. Right. What do you make of these arguments? So Netanyahu is currently standing trial in Jerusalem. He was prosecuted by the state of Israel a few years ago for three cases of bribery, fraud and breach of trust. His trial has been painstakingly slow. But I think for Netanyahu, remaining in power is the absolute goal and the most important thing. This is what guides all of his actions.

This is the number one priority. I do believe he places it above Israel's national security. Sadly, I say that I do believe he will take decisions that are harmful to Israeli national security if he believes that they will serve his own political interests. is that in Sinoir and the leadership of Hamas, he has a reliable partner for not reaching this kind of deal and for wasting time and playing politics. And the families of the hostages are stuck in between. What about the argument, Amir, that Netanyahu and his far right-wing coalition don't actually want to end the war? I think Netanyahu's coalition relies on two far right parties that view this situation very differently than I view it, for example.

Because I also supported the war. And I think Israel's decision to go to war was not only justified, but basically unavoidable in light of what Hamas did. And yet I do believe at this point in time that prioritizing a hostage deal is the right thing for Israel. And these ministers in the Netanyahu government, they disagree. They want to continue the war effort right now with no clear end in sight. And the fate of the hostages is less of a priority for them. Netanyahu relies on them to remain in power. And for him, remaining in power is the single most important issue.

And so in the choice between their priorities and the need to do a deal, I believe so far he's chosen the view of his political partners. We're talking about people like his national security minister, Itamar Ben-Gavir, and finance minister, Bezalel Smotrich, right? Yes. Would you say that they have kind of like the most power in this coalition right now? I think the question I want to ask you is like,

how fragile is that coalition? That coalition currently, according to all the polls in Israel, does not enjoy the support of the majority of the Israeli public. And this only causes them to further cling to power because they know that if there is an election at any time in the coming months, they are likely to lose. And so their approach is we need to do anything to stay in power. We need to hold our coalition as fast, as strong as we can. And this means that any of the smaller junior partners in the coalition, like the two far-right ministers you mentioned, can become a king. Because Netanyahu is so weak and relies on them. And for him, remaining in power is not just a political priority, it's a personal necessity because of his legal troubles.

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That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. Given what you just explained, how likely might it be that an election could happen, right? Because I know Benny Gantz, who I believe is the leader of the largest opposition party, the National Unity Party, which please correct me

if I'm wrong. It's not the largest right now, but according to public opinion polls, it will be the largest if there is a next election. So I know that he has called for elections. He's stepped down from the war cabinet. Unfortunately, Netanyahu is preventing us from approaching true victory, which is the justification for the painful ongoing price. And this is why we quit the national unity government today. Sort of in opposition to Netanyahu, other oppositions, Yair Lapid, have called for elections. How likely might it be that Israelis get that election? There is a strong push from the opposition and from the people in the streets,

at least some of them, for an election. And like I said, the members of the government, they realize that they are likely to lose that election. And so they're trying to the best of their ability to stick together at all costs. One thing that could potentially break this coalition is the issue of ultra-Orthodox Jewish service in the military. Despite the fact that we are at war and Israel has lost many, many hundreds of soldiers, there is a segment of the Jewish population in this country which is exempt from military service. Those are the ultra-Orthodox, the, let's say, ultra-religious Jews who are a very important force in this coalition led by Netanyahu. Their exemption from military service was always unfair and unjust in the eyes

of the Israeli citizens who do have to serve in the military. But during this war, it has become a national security problem because we simply don't have enough soldiers. And the soldiers who do serve are asked to give more and more and more as a result of it. But the parties that represent this segment of the population and who are part of the Netanyahu coalition have not changed their ways. And they are still fighting to give exemptions to very young men from military service. This is causing an internal risk within the Netanyahu coalition that still has a lot of members who represent the parts of the Israeli public that do serve in the military. And I believe that in the coming months, this

issue could lead to the fall of the government. I saw on Saturday, 11 soldiers, Israeli soldiers were killed. This was the deadliest day in months for Israeli troops. So I imagine events like this would put pressure on that issue, right? Absolutely, because they expose the price that Israeli society is paying for this war. And at the same time, when you have a situation where people are dying, but others are getting an exemption for military service, it shows a very, very unfair and unjust situation. Amir, I have been curious about one thing. It's like, what version of the war that Israelis are seeing, right? So like when Israelis are watching television or consuming much of the media in your country, maybe not necessarily yours, but the majority of it.

How is the war portrayed? It is very different than what you would see, I believe, in most of the media in Canada. There is a lot of focus on victims in this war, the people who were attacked on October 7, and the brutal murder and other horrific acts that Hamas terrorists committed on that day. And then later, civilians who were targeted by the rockets and the drones, Hamas and Hezbollah from Lebanon in northern Israel, the communities in Israel that have been evacuated and have become internal refugees, including my own community. I have not been in my home for nine, almost nine months now. You know, my wife and I and two young daughters, after we were almost murdered on October 7. We've been evacuated to a place in north-central Israel ever since then,

and we have no idea when we'll be able to come back home. Of course, the stories of the soldiers who are dying in battle and the hostages who are still in Gaza are a big focus of the coverage. I would say there is less coverage of the death toll in Gaza itself. The cost of Israel's mission to save four hostages highlighted by Gaza's health ministry. It claims 274 Palestinians were killed, another almost 700 injured. Nearly 40 people have been reported killed from the bombardment in Nisirak camp and dozens more injured. Attacks on civilian infrastructure, like this school, have been hallmarks of Israel's war

on Gaza. Over 300 education centres have been destroyed and more than 36,000 people have been killed, 15,000 of them children. We see pictures of the destruction there. We see what the war is causing. There is less focus on human stories emerging from there. And on the one hand, I think it's a problem because we are not fully understanding what's happening on the other side. On the other hand, I can also understand to a certain degree why it is that way, because we are still under the collective trauma of October 7. And we are still with the open wound of the hostages bleeding in our hearts. And it's extremely difficult for people to focus on somebody else's pain when they are still

within that trauma that has not been resolved yet. I believe there will be a moment also for us to reckon with the situation in Gaza itself. I think it's unavoidable and we will have to talk about it. Yeah. But I feel like right now our focus is different. When is that moment, you think? I think it will come after the war. After?

I think it will come after the war, and I think it will come in a very forceful way that we don't necessarily realize yet, because so many of our soldiers are coming back from Gaza with their own physical wounds, but also psychological wounds, if we can call it. And this is an issue that is going to be impactful in our society in the years ahead. But right now, most of the public attention here is focused on our own collective trauma

and on our hostages. These are the most important issues if you ask the random Israeli on the street. I was listening to some of the protesters interviewed over the weekend, and there was this one man. I just I keep thinking about what he said. It wasn't overly complicated, but he just said. And just to change the reality, we can't live in this reality for a long time. All I kept thinking about after that was what if they do right?

All I kept thinking about after that was, what if they do, right? If this war keeps going the way that it's going, if it keeps grinding along like this, if there continues to be no deal that sees hostages come back, if Israel continues to lose its own, if Gazans continue to suffer, you know, what could happen to Israeli society? What do you worry about when you kind of follow this down the line? I do worry that we will not be able to overcome the trauma that we are now facing as a society unless we resolve the hostage issue first and foremost, and we need to bring them back alive, those who haven't died in captivity. Without that, I believe the damage to our society will be immense. It will tear apart the fabric that holds together Israel, which is a country with many different tribes and sub-societies, if you want to call it like that. And the issue of the hostages is critical for keeping together this fragile, but at the same time, you know, united at times of crisis kind of society that we have here. And if we fail in

that mission, I think it will be terrible. And for me, the continuation of the war right now, that's my biggest concern, how it will impact the issue of the hostages. I also understand that there will be long-term issues that this war will create because of everything that's already happened on our side of the border and on the other side of the border. And we will have to deal with those questions for many, many years. This is an issue that's going to affect us psychologically, even I'm putting aside for a second, the security dimensions of it for many, many years. The situation in Gaza, do we want to stabilize Gaza and have an alternative government there, which is not Hamas?

Or do we want there to be some kind of a vacuum, like in Somalia and Afghanistan, and eventually see Hamas take over again? These are incredibly important questions that we have to discuss. And the current government has not held any serious discussion about them. And these are all critical questions. But my biggest fear, honestly, has to do with the issue of the hostages and what kind of society we will become if we fail to bring them back alive. Okay. Amir, I want to thank you very much for this.

I really appreciate it. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you for having me on the show and giving me the opportunity to discuss these important questions. All right. So on Sunday, the IDF announced that it will observe an 11-hour daily tactical pause along one of the main roads in the Gaza Strip. So this would permit more humanitarian aid from UN agencies to enter. The army, however, added that the pause should not be seen as a, quote, cessation of hostilities in the southern

Gaza Strip. That's all for today. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.