Front Burner - When social distancing is a matter of life and death

Episode Date: March 17, 2020

Government and public health officials are urging Canadians to practice social distancing. But what, exactly, does that mean? We speak to a man with cerebral palsy who says that for him, social distancing could make the difference between life and death. Then, a public health expert answers some of our questions about how to do social distancing right.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. I mean, anyone you come in contact with. We're probably too close. We should be a little further. Oh, like this? Like that. A meter is good. So you're probably hearing the term social distancing a lot lately, and I'm guessing you're practicing it yourself in one form or another.

I'm doing it myself right now. I'm actually speaking to you from my living room. Almost every person on the FrontBurner team is working remotely as well. The message from public health officials is that taking these steps can slow the spread of COVID-19 and prevent the vulnerable from being infected. Today, one man whose health and possibly life depends on all of us taking social distancing seriously. And then, how to social distance the right way. This is FrontBurner. Andrew Gerza is a disability advocate and he's the host of Disability After Dark.

It's a podcast about disability and sexuality. He has cerebral palsy. Hi, Andrew. Thank you so much for making the time to speak with me today. Thank you for having me. So I know that this is obviously a stressful time for you, for many people, as the coronavirus continues to spread. And as we see these increasing measures being taken to deal with it. And what have these last few days been like for you? Really weird, honestly.

It's been very strange to see kind of the world come to a standstill. And as somebody with disabilities, I'm really scared. It's becoming very real for me that it could affect me. And it's really scary. It's been really scary the last few days. Can you tell me how this virus could affect you? I know you have cerebral palsy. Cerebral palsy, that's right. So because of my cerebral palsy and because I'm somebody who is

a wheelchair user and sitting down the majority of my day, my lung capacity and my lung function is not, you know, at 100% all the time. And I'm not, my immune system is not always at 100%. So something like this could easily affect me and make it hard for me to live my life. And I know that the Centers for Disease Control has also recently listed cerebral palsy as a condition that puts people at higher risk for serious COVID-19. I'm sorry that you're going through this right now. Thank you. Thank you. Andrew, have you dealt with a really serious illness before where you needed to be hospitalized? Yes, I've had C. difficile before, which is a gastrointestinal issue where you lose all the good gut flora in your body and

you get really sick and have like severe diarrhea. It was a real fun time. So yes, I have. Yes. Can you tell me what that was like I understand you were in the hospital for this yeah I was hospitalized for about a week and I really was kind of in quarantine and isolation very similar to to what we're kind of all doing right now but in the hospital um and I was just very sick and I was really worried that I would never you know I was I was worried at one point that I wouldn't survive because they told me that C. diff was fatal and I was very, very concerned about that. So it was scary. I mean, I knew that I would pull through, but it was really, really scary because I also, being a disabled person when you're in the hospital, they often don't know

exactly how to provide you with care when you're disabled. Many, many people who go into hospital who are disabled don't receive the best care because many healthcare systems don't really know how to navigate disability. Can you tell me a little bit more about that? How did that manifest for you? Yeah, I mean, it just meant things like they wouldn't, they weren't able to come and turn me right away or help me move in the bed or change me when I needed to. Or sometimes they wouldn't want to use special lifts to get me in and out of the bed properly. So just things that I would do in my day-to-day life that the hospital staff maybe weren't so aware of or weren't able to do at the time. And so the idea of going to the hospital with COVID-19 as a disabled person really scares me because I'm worried not so much about

dying from the infection or the illness rather, but the overwhelmed hospital staff trying to then manage somebody with complex care and disabilities. So your previous experience is really coloring how you're thinking about COVID-19 right now? Entirely, yeah. They really have colored how I've considered. I almost feel safer at home than I do going to a medical setting, whereas normally if you're sick, you go to the hospital. But in this case, I almost feel safer at home. What kind of modifications are you making in your life to try to protect yourself from the coronavirus? I mean, I've canceled all of my, I'm a public speaker and I'm a disability awareness consultant. So I had speaking opportunities coming up in and around Toronto

and abroad as well. And I've canceled all those. And I have done things like I'm somebody who needs help in the bathroom, so I've done things like where I put a special catheter inside my body so that I don't have to call somebody in to help me use the bathroom so that I'm less at risk and they're less at risk. I have my day-to-day involves a lot of care workers coming in and out of my house to help me with my daily needs, and I'm doing my best to reduce contact with them so that they don't get sick and I don't get sick. So I've done a lot to really modify what I'm doing. But actually, as a disabled person who has had to modify my life already for a lot of things, that part's not the hardest the hardest part is seeing people who think they're okay and who think

they are not a vector and who think they're who think it's quote just the flu saying oh don't worry about it and it's like well no we could get really sick and i really wish that more people would look at people with complex disabilities and take this way more seriously right let's talk about that for a moment. You know, we're seeing people still go to clubs, still go to bars. We're not going to let Corona stop us from enjoying our day. Yeah, it's weird out here. There's like a lot less people than there normally is.

And, you know, that's probably responsible. And I wish I was a little bit more responsible, but my friends made me come out here. And especially people of our generation. I've heard lots of comments, people saying that this isn't that severe, right, for younger people. And so what kind of message would you like them

to hear from you today? The message I want to send to them is please be responsible. Don't think about yourself right now. Think about the other person beside you. You don't know who is disabled, whether invisibly or visibly, or immunocompromised. You don't know. And you saying it isn't very serious for you could have really dire ramifications for someone else who is immunocompromised or disabled. So I really would urge those young people who want to go to clubs and who want to party, that's all well and good.

But think about someone else other than yourself right now. Of course, it's an inconvenience and somewhat frustrating. We are all social beings after all. But we have to do this because we have to protect our neighbours and our friends, especially our more vulnerable seniors and people with pre-existing conditions. I can't help but think Reuters had this article about South Korea, and they looked at how South Korea has been dealing with this epidemic. And so essentially, the country had these 30 cases under control. And then there was this patient 31. And it was unclear where she contracted the virus.

But after she contracted, she traveled in the days after to incredibly crowded spots, like church services with hundreds of people, a buffet lunch with a friend at a hotel. And in a matter of days, there were hundreds of cases at the church that she went to. And now South Korea experts there believe that this one case, patient 31, could be connected to 80% of the current cases in the country. Wow. Wow.

It's just so irresponsible. It's so irresponsible to be doing that right now. And I mean, we have to look at social distancing as an opportunity for us to really take a break. We all talk about, especially in our generation, how overworked we are and how hard things are for us and how we just wish we could stop this is a chance to actually do that so yeah it might seem like it sucks but also it's giving us a chance to to refresh and do all the things we all say we want to do which is just to relax and so we should be looking at that side of it too andrew can i ask you the prime minister recently spoke as the virus continues its, we've decided to take increasingly aggressive steps to keep you and your family safe. He made a few announcements. They're closing the borders to non-Canadians except American citizens. He's advising people to stay home, but he didn't announce mandatory closures of restaurants, bars, gyms, movie

theaters. In Quebec, there are more stringent measures, bars, gyms, public spaces have been closed, but there's not a consistent approach across the country. What would you like to see from governments in Canada right now? I would like to see governments of Canada talk about the immunocompromised, talk about disabled people, talk about who it's really going to affect, the elderly and the disabled population. These are the populations that are really going to be hit hard by this. And we, as a society as a whole, have a responsibility to take it seriously. And so I would like to see the government say, yes, let's have a mandatory shutdown of bars and restaurants. Let's do that. Because as I've been seeing the news reports as

well, we're not that far off from Italy or the US right now where the cases are exploding. And so it's going to hit us soon. And if people think they can go to restaurants and be okay, then it's going to cause a huge, a bigger problem than it already has. Andrew, can I ask you how this is affecting your mental health right now? How are you feeling, your level of anxiety? My level of anxiety as a disabled person is, I would say right now, today, it's even keel. I'm kind of just relaxing and hanging out at home watching Netflix. But there are moments where I'm concerned. I'm doing the best that I can to stay calm and comfortable. I'm also talking to a lot of other disabled people who are also feeling

that way on the internet, because that's how a lot of us are communicating now. So I'm talking to a lot of my other disabled friends in and around Ontario who are concerned. And that's kind of nice because we're able to have a dialogue about what scares us and why we're concerned. But I am very concerned that if this gets worse for me as a disabled person reliant on other people for care, that maybe I won't get the care that I need, maybe I won't get the supports I need. And I just really hope that it eventually either a vaccine is found or something is done to curb this. I absolutely don't want to compare my situation to yours.

Yours seems so much more serious. I'm very, very sorry that you are going through this right now. I'm just a little bit over seven months pregnant right now. I'm just a little bit over seven months pregnant right now. And so, you know, they don't know a lot about how this virus affects pregnant women and newborn babies. And so I feel like I have maybe experienced some of what you're worrying about right now. And it's hard. And so I am truly sorry. Yeah, I mean, I'm sorry for you as well like I think that but you know the good thing about this my hope is that like because in our society we ableism which is a discrimination against disabled

people happens all the time my hope is that with things like turning everything digital all these things that are happening that after this is done and we can start to look at when disabled people and people who need support request things for help, our society will go, you know what? Because of all the stuff that happened, don't worry about it. Because we understand now when someone says I need a specialized accommodation for my health, maybe this will change our society for the better.

Well, Andrew, on that note, thank you so much for taking the time today. And please stay healthy and stay in touch with us. Thank you so much for having me and you as well. That was Andrew Gerza, host of the podcast Disability After Dark. A simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. So we know that we need to practice social distancing.

The Prime Minister on Monday said people should stay home as much as they can. By staying home, you can not only protect your health and that of those around you, but ensure that our health care professionals and our health care systems can focus on those who need their help. But I've got a lot of questions myself about what that looks like. What should we be doing? What should we be avoiding? That's why I wanted to speak to Amy Greer. She's Canada's research chair in population disease modeling at the University of Guelph, and she's currently involved in the government's pandemic preparations. Hi, Amy. Thank you so much for being with me today.

Thanks for having me. What did you think when you were listening to Andrew's story? I mean, Andrew's story is one that is a story of many people who live within Canada. There are many people who have underlying chronic conditions or who have disabilities, who are, you know, at increased risk for having severe outcomes, or as Andrew said, having severe outcomes and also having the additional challenges of having complex health concerns that, again, are challenging to deal with within the health setting. And so, you know, I think it highlights the fact that it is the responsibility of all of us to really take this seriously in terms of social distancing, to do our part

as a way of helping to minimize the risk to individuals like Andrew. as a way of helping to minimize the risk to individuals like Andrew. I'm hoping that we can talk today about how exactly we can do that. So I am a person who wants to take social distance seriously. The prime minister is saying stay home as much as you can. And I want to talk to you about what that means practically. Can I go to a restaurant, for example? So, I mean, right now I would personally not go to a restaurant.

And I think the root of social distancing is that the goal is to reduce transmission. And so it's important for us to think about how COVID-19 is transmitted between people. So transmission is through droplets. So when you speak or cough or sneeze, you spray droplets out of your mouth or out of your nose into your environment. And so number one is that you can become infected by having direct contact with somebody who perhaps coughs and does not cover their cough appropriately if you're in very close proximity to them. But the other challenge is that individuals who might be ill, those droplets may go out and land onto surfaces in places where people gather. So tables, doorknobs, the elevator buttons. That's why we've been talking a lot about personal protective measures like washing

your hands and trying not to touch your face. But what it means is, is that other people are a potential risk factor, as well as common spaces where people congregate because the surfaces and the environment in common spaces can be contaminated. So for me, if we're doing really good social distancing, restaurants are off the table for right now. Why don't you order in instead? I know that there are many, many companies that are making arrangements to help people work from home. Obviously, work is a place where people congregate as well. But not everybody can work from home. Grocery store workers, bus drivers, what should they do to minimize their risk beyond hand washing and you know some of the

etiquette we've been hearing sneezing into your elbow are there any other measures that they can take i think that the way we help to reduce the risk to people who are essential service workers so in jobs that yes they have to physically be in their workplace to be able to keep things going, like stocking the grocery store shelves. Practicing good social distancing is a great way for us to do that, because what it means is the grocery stores have fewer people in them at any one time, for instance. We're reducing the risk of exposure to those critical staff who need to be at work by ourselves practicing social distancing. That's a really interesting point you just made, the idea that we too can help these workers. I

hadn't thought about that until right now. I wonder if we could move from these spaces where many people congregate to sort of our smaller lives for a moment. You know, for example, could I have a small number of friends over to my house for a dinner party? So for me, I think the current concern about that is that we currently in Canada are seeing community transmission. And what that means is, is that there are individuals who are newly being diagnosed with COVID-19 who do not have a travel history. And that means those people became infected within their local community. What we see in the surveillance data, so a person who's identified as a case today, the time at which they became

infected actually happened up to two weeks ago. So what we see in any given day is a function of a historical exposure event that happened some time ago. What that means is that every person who you invite into your home is a potential risk. What if I'm someone that likes to run? Could I go outside and get some fresh air and go for a run? Absolutely. You know, I think we need to balance doing good, aggressive social distancing with our everyday need for connection and our mental health and all of those sorts of things. And so certainly, you know, exercise, sunshine,

time outdoors with our family, all of that is going to be critical, really, during a time like this where there is a lot of uncertainty. I think the risk of being outdoors is quite a bit reduced than if you were in a small enclosed space. That was actually the next question I wanted to ask you, sort of how much space to keep between people, you know, let's say I'm on the run, I bump into someone, or if I'm at the grocery store, how much distance between me and someone else?

Two meters? Three meters? I mean, I think you want to maintain space. Two or three meters sounds reasonable. And if we could focus even on sort of the smaller units, lastly here, what about our households? So how should family members or roommates stay safe in their own homes? So I think that this is a good point, right? I mean, I feel as though our home, the people who we live with, you know, they are really our support system. And so, you know, there are lots of things within your home, you have lots of contact with the people you live with. And that contact is quite intense, right? You have small kids, they

climb on top of you. I mean, there's only so much you can do within your household in terms of minimizing risk. I think within a household, when it becomes important is that if somebody, for instance, starts to develop a fever and a cough, then let's really try to be proactive, right? Let's think about, you know, where should they stay while they're ill? We maybe want to keep them in one place and try to reduce the amount of contact they have in order to prevent spreading it to the rest of the people in the family. Are we talking about like separate bedrooms, separate bathroom, if possible, not sharing utensils, this kind of stuff? Yeah, I mean, I think all of that is totally reasonable. And those are things that we were talking about, you know, even before we

started talking about social distancing, you know, several weeks ago, when we were talking about pandemic preparedness, one of the things public health was really communicating to people was, think about your plan. What will your plan be if school is cancelled? What will your plan be if someone in your household becomes ill? And so for some people, it will not be possible. But if you have the ability to isolate within your household, that's really helpful in terms of trying to reduce spread to the other family members. So certainly if there is, you know, a separate bedroom, a basement area where they can kind of just recover and watch TV and do what they need to do, but without having to have really intense direct contact with other family members.

OK, Amy Greer, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. All right, so there was a lot going on yesterday, including another brutal day on the markets. The TSX and Dow Jones lost another 10%. We had the worst opening ever for the TSX going back all the way to 1977. And this is beyond affecting people's portfolio. These are fundamental changes the market's going through. We're working on an episode with our national business correspondent, Peter Armstrong, to try to explain what is happening with the economy too. So please stay tuned for that this week. That's all for today though. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner and talk

to you all very soon.