Front Burner - Who are the AP3 militia?

Episode Date: September 13, 2024

During the presidential debate this week, Donald Trump once again talked about how he didn’t lose the 2020 election.It’s a false claim that many Americans believe. And some of those believers are getting ready to fight following what they think could be another stolen election in November.ProPublica’s Joshua Kaplan has been reporting on the American Patriots Three Percent, or AP3, and one of the largest active militia groups in the U.S. Despite a wider crackdown on paramilitary groups after January 6th, AP3 has so far managed to avoid much scrutiny.Joshua gives host Jayme Poisson an inside view of the militia group, perspective on how much of a threat they are, and what the stakes are ahead of the U.S election.For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. Throughout the election campaign, Donald Trump has again and again talked about how he didn't lose the 2020 election. It came up just the other night during the presidential debate. Are you now acknowledging that you lost in 2020?

No, I don't acknowledge that at all. But you did say that. I said that sarcastically, you know that. We said, oh, we lost by a whisker. That was said sarcastically. Look, there's so much proof. All you have to do is look at it. Trump very clearly didn't win the last election, but many Americans believe that he did. Some of them are getting ready to fight, go to battle against what they think could be another rigged election in November. ProPublica's Josh Kaplan has been reporting on a particular group that is doing just that. They're called the American Patriots 3%. They're one of the largest U.S. militia groups around and have a presence in most states.

And despite a wider crackdown on paramilitary groups after January 6th, AP3 has so far managed to avoid much attention. They've even been growing. Josh has been talking to past and present members of the group and digging through more than 100,000 internal messages between them. He's here to give a more detailed inside view of the militia movement and what the stakes are ahead of the U.S. election. Josh, hi, welcome to FrontBurner. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much for having me. So I'm really looking forward to digging into your reporting on AP3 in particular. But before we start, I think we just need to get a bit more

context. So the modern militia movement in the United States goes back to the early 90s, right? And just tell me about its origins and a bit of its history. The modern militia movement kind of kicked off in the 90s in response to things like Bill Clinton's efforts on gun control, some kind of high profile government standoffs that created a lot of backlash on the right. And it was growing really rapidly. Within a few years, one of the movement's biggest cheerleaders was elected as a U.S. Congresswoman. And then in 1995, a military veteran with militia ties blew up a government building in Oklahoma City, building almost 200 people. Timothy McVeigh. Yeah, exactly. And this was this was one of the this remains one of the

largest terrorist attacks on American soil. The chaos in downtown Oklahoma City did indeed resemble Beirut after what police believed to be a 1,200-pound car bomb ripped through the nine-story federal building shortly after nine o'clock this morning. More than 500 people were already in their offices, and at least 50 children were in a daycare center on the second floor. children were in a daycare center on the second floor. It was an act of cowardice and it was evil. The United States will not tolerate it. And the backlash against the militia movement was tremendous. Timothy McVeigh, guilty, guilty of murder, guilty of conspiracy, guilty on all 11 federal charges that he faced in the Oklahoma City bombing trial. And Timothy McVeigh could now be sentenced to death. This morning, the United States of America carried out the severest sentence for the

gravest of crimes. And one young man met the fate he chose for himself six years ago. For the survivors of the crime... He crumbled after that and didn't recover until 2008 when, you know, between Barack Obama's election as the first black president and the 2008 financial crisis, there was a lot of kindling for a new generation of militias to pick up the mantle. And that's when groups you might have heard of, like the Oath Keepers and other major militias like AP3 that I got into in the article were founded. And they, you know, grew and gained momentum over the course of Obama's presidency and Trump's presidency. And, you know, there's a straight line from the kind of formation of these groups after Obama took office right until January 6th. Because unresolved questions for January 6th investigators remain whether Trump knew that the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers would storm the Capitol and whether Trump was in contact with

their leaders who have since been indicted for seditious conspiracy. I say this with the caveat that I know the goals and values can be vague and shapeshift and differ from group to group. But generally, how would you describe the goals and values of groups in this movement? I mean, I think the kind of defining idea, which, as you said, is very vague, and there's, you know, this vagueness serves a purpose. But the defining idea is that these groups, but kind of common threads are, you know, gun control, COVID-19 restrictions are seen as injustices that might be worth dying over. There's a lot of backlash against Black Lives Matter and what they see as anti-white racism against the advancement of gay rights.

I mean, kind of a laundry list of various grievances. They draw from whatever the kind of grievances of the day is as well to try to bring in more people who might be freshly motivated. How big of an element is white supremacy in this movement? We talked about Oklahoma City. Part of the motivation for Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols was like this white supremacist agenda. Of course, it was also an anti-government agenda. But, you know, today, what does the role of white supremacy play? It's a good question. I would say race is always in the background. These groups are not in any way explicitly white supremacists. you know, the Aryan Brotherhood, who were literally neo-Nazis. You know, they, these groups

would vehemently deny that they're racist. And they do have a, you know, while it's overwhelmingly white, there are Black and Hispanic men that are in positions of leadership in AP3 and in other modern militias. That said, they do have members who have deep ties to organized white nationalism in them as well. When there were Black Lives Matter protests around the country in 2020, AP3 members were out in the streets, in vigilante patrols with assault rifles and baseball bats, sometimes assaulting protesters. A crowd of people who refer to themselves as patriots, armed with guns and American flags. The rally led by Dylan Stevens of Texas and known to many as the Angry Viking, frustrated by those who have threatened to burn the city. Americans, what they do is they scare you into thinking you're a racist for standing up for this right here, for standing up for Louisville. And I tell these people in my

videos every single time, sometimes you gotta be uncomfortable being uncomfortable. I want to dive into AB3 a bit more with you. You have spoken to former members, as I mentioned in the interview. You've seen reams of their correspondence. And where do they fit into the movement that we have been talking about? Yes. So, I mean, they have long been one of the very largest militias in the United States. And so there's a few groups like the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, AP3, a handful of others that you might not have heard of that are kind of the flag bearers of this modern militia movement.

militia movement. Um, and you know, after january six, you know, some of the most famous groups like the oath keepers were really damaged by, um, the law enforcement response to the Capitol riot. Um, they, uh, you know, because a lot of their leadership went to prison, a federal jury handing down a guilty verdict for the most serious charge prosecutors have yet brought against January 6th perpetrators. Stuart Rhodes, the founder of the far-right militia, the Oath Keepers, and his top lieutenant, Kelly Maggs, convicted of seditious conspiracy, a rare Civil War era charge that carries a maximum of 20 years in prison. AP3 was able to escape that, was able to escape that level of scrutiny and being connected to the Capitol riot. And they were not only able to weather the storm

of January 6th and its fallout, but since then have expanded at a dramatic pace. Why were they able to avoid that fallout? Part of it's kind of maybe luck, maybe a coincidence that their focus was actually at that time on something that was going to happen two weeks after January 6th, Biden's inauguration ceremony. And they had spent weeks preparing for that. One of the top leaders in the group, you know, said it was promising he was going to, to Mad Max this. And and the the head of the group decided he was going to focus his um

efforts uh on inauguration day and not issue a call to arms to try to get everyone in dc for january 6th you know plenty of members went anyways some fought with police officers on the Capitol steps, but they were under orders not to wear any kind of insignia or gear that linked them to AP3. And the organization, until our article came out, had never been publicly linked to the rioters. That's interesting. Tell me more about the leader Scott set in, right? Yes. I mean, in many ways, not necessarily who you'd expect to lead a major paramilitary organization. He spent some time in the Army Reserves as a young man, although then inflated his brief tenure to something much larger than it was and how he would talk about his military service. But really, I mean, for most of his life,

he bounced between jobs. He worked as the manager for a small time rapper. He did modeling work, you know, appearing on the cover of erotic books. And if you want to see, please check out the article. We included one cover in there. People found him kind of magnetic in his ability to, you know, articulate a vision for, you know, what role they could have in society. And also he was really deft at using social media. This was kind of the key thing for bringing people, reaching people and then bringing them off of just the internet and into the real world. Something big is coming in this country. Something big is happening already around the world. We're being evaded at our southern border. We have old alliances forming with our enemies of past. Our government is against us. We have no allies left besides ourselves and the other conservative American patriots that are out there.

He was able to expand this and really become one of the most important figures in the militia movement. Tell me more about what this group is actually up to, right? I guess before and after January 6th, but particularly after. I mean, on a day-to-day level, I mean, there's a lot of paramilitary training where they will practice getting together and storming buildings with semi-automatic rifles or, you know, attacking dummies with knives. So today we're going to be going to the woods. We're going to be working on pistol drills, rifle drills.

What are you training for? People may try to come and take what you got. So we want to be able to protect what we have or to move and make contact with the threats and take out the bad guys. And then they have already tried to shape American life through armed vigilante operations. So there's the patrols at Black Lives Matter protests I just talked about. But then also more recently, they've gone, you know, mobilized people from around the country to the U.S.-Mexico border

where they have rounded up immigrants in armed vigilante patrols. They also, in the 2022 midterm elections, tried to crack down on people casting absentee ballots. And now, as we get closer to another contentious presidential election, they have been debating with ever more intensity if and when they should commit acts of mass political violence. Tell me more about that. I think the most urgent question behind all of this is, are we going to look back at January 6 as the peak of militia violence in America or as just a prelude to something even more consequential and you know well it's easy to you know take solace in the fact that things have been quiet for the last three years um you know experts are all in

agreement that it's really too early to tell and they think a lot is going to hinge on this upcoming election. AP3 members have been saying some, you know, they are sure that Democrats will try to, quote unquote, steal the election from Donald Trump again. And they think everything's at stake, you know, just to give a small taste of it. And, you know, one leader wrote in a secret chat that, you know, this election is not going to be decided small taste of it. One leader wrote in a secret chat that this election is not going to be decided at the ballot box, it's going to be decided at the ammo box.

And he said he's ready to violently force his can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo. 50%.

That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. Josh, like how many of these guys are out there? Like AP3 and then these other groups? It's really hard to measure, actually. And part of that is because it's become a lot harder to track them since January 6th

because they've gotten smarter and they've moved more of their activities and planning underground. So as far as AP3, you know, there's recent shakeups. But before then, at its peak, according to Seddon's account, they had 40 or 50,000 members. That's probably an exaggeration. But, you know, from a lot more sources in and out of the group, including experts, you know, certainly in the thousands. And these are people that are heavily armed and often have, you know, serious military experience or service in law enforcement. Yeah, a lot of these guys are, you know, former vets, right? Right.

Yeah. And you mentioned law enforcement. I know part of the strategy, at least for AP3, for Meaning Your Peace, is to foster relationships with law enforcement, right? And can you just talk to me more about that? And like, have these guys had any success there? any success there? Yeah. So, I mean, they view this as absolutely crucial to make it so that law enforcement, you know, ideally fights alongside them, but if not, then at least leaves them alone. I mean, these are, these are peoples that regularly put themselves into extremely volatile situations while heavily armed. And they want the police to be on their side. And so, I mean, they've taken a very bureaucratic approach to this at times, including pushing everyone to reach out to their sheriffs in their area and sending out Excel spreadsheets so they could keep track of which sheriffs in every state in the country are friendly

to them and aren't. which sheriffs in every state in the country are friendly to them and aren't. And they also have a really kind of wide playbook of methods for getting law enforcement on their side, from things like organizing barbecues for police officers and staging or letting police officers come to shooting ranges they own for free, to kind of business school 101-esque marketing schemes, like giving police officers brochures about AP3 that say, we are not a militia, even though internally they acknowledge that that's not a true statement. They just think it's good branding for the police. they acknowledge that that's not a true statement. They just think it's good branding for the police. And they've certainly had success. I mean, there are active duty law enforcement members around the country who have been active members of an AP3, even held leadership positions in AP3.

And they've been trying to expand that. And so, you you know we get into some of this in the story of like a mid-sized city police department where members say that they have been you know they get intel from police they coordinate with them when rallies are happening and have been asked to do operations on police's behalf and that they have been repeatedly invited to attend barbecues at the police union's headquarters. Right, right. When you mention these barbecues, they're doing this with police officers, but they're also doing this internally, right? One way you've described it is kind of like half militia, half Rotary Club, right?

It's like a sense of community for these guys, right? A place of belonging? Absolutely. Yeah, no, there's the paramilitary side, but there's also this softer side that, you know, is important. I mean, it's to understanding these groups. I mean, they organize charity drives for the homeless. to understanding these groups. I mean, they, they organize charity drives for the homeless. They,

um, celebrate Valentine's day and Easter Sunday together. They, um, they have their own, they had their own monthly magazine with, uh, word games for their kids in the back of it. Um, and you know, the kind of impact of that is that for, for a lot of members, AP3 had become one of the most fulfilling things in their lives. Combat veterans would get home from overseas and who had been searching for a way to recreate that kind of close-knit bond they had with their squad when they were serving in the military, found some approximation of that by joining the militia. Josh, we started this conversation, you know, talking about the history of the modern militia movement in the United States. And I just, you know, because you spent so much time reporting on it, I know, I take your point that it's very hard to measure, but just in that context, right, in that historical context, how pervasive do you think it is right now compared to other times in history? How dangerous, potentially dangerous, do you think it is right now compared to other times?

potentially dangerous do you think it is right now compared to other times? It's an excellent question. Do I think that we right now are at the kind of high point in terms of number of people that are in a militia? Probably not. I think, you know, the ability of militias to recover from January 6th has been a surprise even to people that are leading militias. But they still probably aren't where they were before January 6th in terms of number of people. But that's, you know, that's something that can change very rapidly because a lot of this is coming from political headwinds. And if, say, Trump once again says that, you know, loses an election and refuses to accept the results, that's something that could drive

a lot of people into this movement. And then the threat level, you know, journalists are famously bad at making predictions. I mean, the national security officials I talk to are, I mean, they're deeply worried. Yeah. I mean, those guys aren't so great at making predictions either, but yeah. to me because um just to use ap3 as a case study um you know this this there is this constant debate in the group about you know is it time for us to commit violence um and you read you know you reading through so many messages about this it's it's hard to tell in any given case, you know, is this person serious

or are they just kind of, you know, is this just bluster? Right. And that's the exact problem FBI agents face when they're monitoring these groups too. It's a real challenge. But, you know, the quantity of it and the number of people uh saying this and the number of people who have hundreds under their command who are say talking like that over the course of these i mean it started to really get under my skin and it turns out that was i was not alone in that feeling there was a lot of people in the militia themselves itself that were had been in it for a long time. These aren't people that are easily rattled by tough talk, but they were really alarmed by the direction this was heading in. You know, there were longtime members of this group who quit

because they were scared by the number of people advocating now in the last couple of years for acts of terror. now in the last couple years for acts of terror. And is that same dynamic playing out in every militia in their secret chats? I don't know. But polls do suggest that the level of support for political violence in America seems to only be going up in the last few years. Josh, thank you so much for this. That was incredibly interesting. I really, really want to thank you for taking the time. Thank you so much for having me on.

All right. That is all for this week. Front Burner was produced this week by Joytha Sengupta, Matt Muse, Ali Janes, and Matt Alma. Sound design was by Mackenzie Cameron and Sam McNulty. Music is by Joseph Shabison. Our senior producer is

Elaine Chow. Our executive producer is Nick McKay-Blocos. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thank you so much for listening, and we'll talk to you next week.