Front Burner - Who’s the GOAT: Michael Jordan or LeBron James?

Episode Date: October 14, 2020

On Sunday, L.A. Lakers star LeBron James took home his fourth NBA championship and his fourth finals MVP award. He also became the first player to have won a championship on three different teams. Those wins are reviving an old debate over who gets to claim the title of the greatest basketball player of all time: Is it LeBron now, or does His Airness, Michael Jordan, still reign? Today Ben Golliver, the Washington Post’s national NBA writer, and Alex Wong, a freelance sports writer, debate it.

Happy Holidays! I'm Frank Cappadocia, Dean of Continuous Professional Learning at Humber Polytechnic, and I'd like you to set a goal for 2025 to sharpen your skills and get promoted. Register for a professional designation, micro-credential, or certificate with Humber's Continuous Professional Learning and ignite your career journey this new year. Our experts deliver accelerated learning from resilience-based leadership to electric vehicle fundamentals in learning options that work with your ambitious lifestyle. Adapt, evolve, and excel. Go to humber.ca slash cpl to get started. This is a CBC podcast. For me to be a part of such a historical franchise is a it's an unbelievable feeling not only for myself but for my teammates, for the organization, for the coaches, for the trainers,

everybody that's here. We just want our respect. Rob wants his respect. Coach Vogel wants his respect. Our organization wants their respect. Laker Nation wants their respect. And I want my damn respect, too. And I want my damn respect, too. Okay, so you heard LeBron James. He wants his respect. And that was him accepting his fourth finals MVP award after the L.A. Lakers won the NBA championship on Sunday night. It's also James' fourth championship win, making him the first NBA player to win on three different teams. Truly great achievements.

But does that make him the GOAT? Or does the title of basketball's greatest of all time still belong to Michael Jordan? Today, friend of the pod Alex Wong, a freelance sports writer and huge Raptors fan, and Ben Gulliver, the Washington Post National NBA writer, have the debate. I'm Jamie Poisson, and this is Frontburner. Alex, Ben, hello to you both. Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. Thanks, Jamie. Hope you're doing well. It's great to be here.

So Ben, before we get into this debate, which is a great one, I know that you just flew home after more than 90 days in the NBA bubble. So tell me, how does it feel to be out in the world again? Is the bubble better than real life? Well, it's very disorienting. I'll say that first of all, I mean, going through an airport where everyone's not required to follow the same strict protocols that we did in the bubble was was really jarring but i think your timing with this question is absolutely perfect because i'm almost the exact same age as lebron i'm a year older so we both grew up in this sort of era of michael jordan worship and a couple days ago lebron claims his fourth title he's spraying everyone with champagne i get absolutely doused i need some goggles i'm not

no sir you're not gonna spray me i'm gonna burn my eyes where's the goggles and it's not a typical celebration it's a celebration where we all get uh you know turned free from a bubble to go back to our our homes after three months hey mama i had to leave the locker room they going crazy in there right now so it's uh one of the most exciting and exhilarating moments of my life. And I thought, look, if there was ever an opportunity for me to change my mind on this after 20 years of supporting Michael Jordan as the greatest of all time, this could be it, right? This could be the emotional biases kicking in and the proximity to LeBron and just the overwhelming urge to get home might flip my mind.

But I think after I've thought about it here for the last couple of days, I'm still on Team MJ after all of that. Okay, okay. I saw that video that you posted on Twitter of LeBron spraying champagne on you. It was fabulous. So let's get into this debate today because it's such a good one. And Alex, then let's start with you. So we're talking about LeBron, and you think there's a good argument to be made for how he should now be crowned the greatest of all time, even though Ben hasn't gotten there yet.

So before we get to overall stats, can you give me this one specific moment that sticks out for you that perfectly demonstrates LeBron James' greatness? Yeah, I think the one moment that I would go to, and I think a lot of people would go to, is during the 2016 finals when he was with the Cleveland Cavaliers and they were down 3-1 in the 2016 finals when he was with the Cleveland Cavaliers and they were down 3-1 in the NBA finals and the performances that he put together from games five through to game seven.

And then there was obviously the iconic moment in game seven towards the end when he was able to get a chase down block late in the fourth quarter on Andre Iguodala. Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup. Oh, blocked by James. LeBron James with the rejection. That eventually led to the Cavs coming back from that 3-1 deficit. Final seconds, it's over, it's over. Cleveland is a city of champions once again.

You know, they beat a team that won 73 games during the regular season, and they beat a team that won 73 games during the regular season. And they beat a team that, you know, we're getting comparisons to, you know, Michael Jordan and the Bulls team in the 90s. And so, you know, to me, that is the one moment and the one series that, you know, I think even if LeBron does go on to win more championships here towards the end of his career, that people are really going to remember by, you know, the greatest comeback in NBA Finals history. We're in the record books. We're the first team ever to come back from a 3-1 deficit. Ben, what about for you?

What's the Jordan moment for you? For me, the Jordan memory that I will always have, it's more of a personal one. So I was about 10 years old, and the Chicago Bulls had just lost game five of the 1993 finals. You know what, Marv? The Chicago Bulls are in trouble. They're in trouble. This thing is going to go seven. And for whatever reason, you know, as a diehard Jordan fan growing up, I was just absolutely distraught. I locked myself into, I guess, a storage closet at our house. Jordan had scored 41 points in the game.

They had still lost by 10. And Phoenix had reclaimed a home court advantage. And so Chicago had to take this flight back to Phoenix. And it was funny. My dad was not somebody who was about false promises whatsoever. But he knocked on the door and he says, Ben, don't worry about it. Michael Jordan will win. He always wins. You have nothing to worry about. Sure enough, next game out, you know, the Chicago Bulls win.

Jordan has 33 points. He makes the key pass to set up the game winning shot. Gets his finals MVP trophy and everybody starts crowning him at that moment with his third straight title as the greatest of all time and it to me the reason why that one stands out it was just this idea of Michael being inevitable he was always going to be the one who did it he was always going to win I mean especially during his his prime he just seemed like he was an invincible force and he lorded over everyone else in a way that we really haven't seen here in the modern era. I know we can't talk about who's the better basketball player here unless we get into some numbers. And so, Alex, you know, if you're trying to make the case that LeBron James is the greatest basketball player of all time,

what do the statistics tell you? Yeah, you know, I think one of the things that you really need to look at if you're making the argument for LeBron, which, you know, I'm doing here, is that just the longevity of what he's done, right? Like, he just finished his 17th year, and, you know, he's done right like he just finished um his 17th year and you know he's turning 36 in december and you look at the last two games that he that he played you know in game five um you know he had 40 points 13 rebounds seven assists and three steals james way downtown lebron james long distance he's 10 of 12 from the field and he finished off you know

in game six with a triple double so you're talking about a guy at age 35 who is just kind of defying all the expectations, the physical expectations we have of players as they age. And, you know, one of the things that I like to point out whenever this argument does come out is, you know, this is not kind of a finished argument, right? Like LeBron's career is nowhere near close, you know, barring injury to being over. He's going to have more chances to add to his championships. And I think one of the things that Michael gets a lot of credit for and he should get credit for is going 6-0 in the finals. To me, LeBron making 10 NBA

finals appearances and, you know, nine out of the 10 years and outside of the Lakers missing the playoffs last year, the last nine straight years that a lebron team has made the playoffs he's gotten them to the finals um i think narratively and you know the way you look at it i think ben made a really good point about michael just being inevitable in the 90s um lebron doesn't have that same story um in that you know he lost to the spurs in 2014 he lost to the golden state warriors three times but when you look at the teams that have beaten LeBron since 2012 when he won his first championship, it has taken some all-time great teams to beat LeBron. And I can't, when I think about it,

it's like, what else could he have done? And I think that gets encapsulated in that 51-point game in the 2018 finals that he had against the Golden State Warriors. James drives, double clutches, and puts it in. And they kind of blow the game at the end because J.R. Smith forgets how much time is on the clock. And that'll do it. Golden State survives in overtime.

Some of that stuff, when he does fail, it's hard to put it on LeBron. Ben, how do you respond to that? You know, how do you compete with some of the stats that Alex just threw at us? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's in the quantity versus quality argument, LeBron will always win the quantity argument

because we have never seen a player come straight from high school and maintain a stretch of dominance as long as LeBron ever. In Jordan's case, he's basically at a three-year start disadvantage because he went to college at University of North Carolina for three years. And then there was a big gap in the middle of his career following the death of his father, where he basically took almost two full seasons off. So when you're talking about total accumulation and box score numbers, LeBron's going to be favored. And there's also the factor that, you know, in the modern game, it's easier to compile stats.

It's faster. It's higher scoring. And so, you know, comparing, you know, stats from the 90s to current stats, a little bit apples to oranges. Michael's argument is going to be about the quality and the gap between him and his contemporaries. Right. I think he had 10 scoring titles basically over an 11 or 12 year period. That included the years that he was away from the sport that I imagine. He had the six rings that Alex mentioned. He went 6-0. He never needed a game seven in the finals. And there was never really that moment once Michael reached his peak where you did ask that question that we have to ask of LeBron of like, well, what more

could he have done? Or, you know, why is he on the losing end? The gap between him and anyone else at his position during his prime was just that vast. And I think the other thing that you would go back to is, you know, his numbers came in very iconic and very memorable ways. So, for example, he had 55 points at Madison Square Garden. Everybody remembers the double nickel. Got him in the air. Michael Jordan has 55. He had to work for them.

Right, that's like a household phrase among basketball fans that you can always kind of go back to. He had these other games like the flu game. Despite being sick and not being able to walk, Mike had 38 points. The last shot. 17 seconds from game seven or from championship number six. Jordan, open. Chicago with the lead.

The six three-pointers where he did the shrug. He said he felt like he was shooting free throws after a while, and it sure looked like it. I mean, when he was putting up his numbers, it wasn't just about what came through in, say, the record books or the stat list or things like that. It was more about the emotional connection that he had with lots and lots of people. And I think that's one of the biggest numbers, actually, that's in his favor, is the size of the audience. You know, he goes to Paris in The Last Dance. Just one man is hugging the attention, Michael Jordan. He's bigger than the Pope, screams the morning paper. You know, Oprah Winfrey is calling him arguably the most famous person in the world. LeBron is

the most famous player in the NBA right now, and he's definitely the best player since Michael Jordan. There's no question. But I don't think he's achieved that same level of global fame, popularity that Michael achieved. And I think that's a number that we have to factor in here too. One thing I wanted to ask you both about, LeBron has taken some criticism for switching teams so many times. Miami, Cleveland, the Lakers, where, you know, as we know, Jordan spent most of his career playing for the Chicago Bulls. And Alex, do you think that difference affects the way a lot of people might see both of these players and their legacies? Yeah, you know, I definitely think

so. You know, I think, you know, when this discussion does come up, you know, a lot of times people will point to, you know, not just even Michael Jordan having spent his whole career with the Bulls. We're just going to forget the fact that he played a few years with the Wizards later on in his career. And, you know, Kobe as well spent, you know, 20 years with one team with the Lakers, but which, again, we're ignoring the fact that there was a time when he requested a trade and, you know, he was, you know, he wanted off the team. And, you know, I feel like LeBron, you know, winning championships with three different teams and, you know, having made these moves during free agency and not staying with one particular

team it speaks to kind of the legacy as well that i think he's leaving and he's already left in terms of an imprint on the rest of this generation's players in terms of player empowerment you know we we used to i think live um in a society where we would criticize players for not being loyal to their teams and i think over time that mentality has changed when we see that teams you know are not loyal to players you know it's not a two-way street and you know why is it a criticism of LeBron's you know if he does want to you know go to a new situation where he can you know find and team up with new teammates like in Anthony Davis here in LA to give him a better chance at winning so I do feel like he should get credit

actually for, you know, winning with these different iterations and with these different teammates. You know, to me, that's really impressive. Ben, any thoughts there? I think it's true that there has been a large percentage of fans, especially younger fans who have come around to this idea that players should get to control their own destiny. I have been to have always been in that category. I want to be able to go from company to company. I've changed company multiple times as a writer, but I do think that there's a lot of fans who still relate to the struggle and the way that Jordan pulled that organization up and turned it around, um, that LeBron has not quite been able to, I guess, uh, control or, or, uh, keep with him during his journey

from city to city. Alex mentioned that the best title of LeBron's career was 2016 in Cleveland. I completely agree. That's the highlight of his career. It's the one title he actually cried after. Overcome with emotion is exactly how I would describe LeBron's reaction as he shares a hug with Kyrie. It was his home state team. He was raised near Cleveland. He finally got them over the hump and ended their championship curse. The drought is over. 52 years.

Cleveland! This is for you! Oh! He knew in that moment it was the best thing that he was ever going to do as a basketball player. That's sort of what it was like for Jordan with all of his Chicago titles because that's how he came up. I mean, they were terrible when they got him. As he described in the last answer, some of his teammates are using drugs. I mean, it's just a completely dysfunctional organization.

He had to build it up step by step. But I think a lot of fans just relate to that journey. And it just brings people closer. If you're skipping town to take your talents to South Beach, if you're going to L.A. to pursue your off-court interest, the average fan can't really relate to that, right? It just creates this distance, I guess, between LeBron and those who are cheering for him. And so I think that that's a big advantage that Michael's got,

and there's not really any way around it. The loyalty factor does really ring true for a lot of people. I want to talk a little bit about these guys off the court and their legacies. And Alex, can you talk to me a bit about LeBron James and how he's approached social and political issues, particularly in relation to social justice and Black Lives Matter? Because there's a real difference here. Yeah, you know, I think LeBron, you know, not just with all the social upheaval this year. I mean, this goes back like many years.

You know, he has long been for this whole decade the go-to voice in the NBA in terms of social justice and speaking out on issues like police brutality. It's a scary, it's a scary situation that if my son calls me and said he's been pulled over, that I'm not that confident that things are going to go well and my son is going to return home. And this goes back to his days when he was playing with Miami. But what LeBron has done is both combine his voice, but also, you know, put his money where his mouth is in terms of opening a school in his hometown of Akron, Ohio.

Kids just want to know if we care about them. They have the dreams. They have the aspirations. They have everything that they can actually get to, whatever they want to get to in life. They just want to know that someone cares. You know, the more than a vote initiative that he has right now to make sure that voters are able to get to the stations, the ballot stations that they need on November 3rd. And there's a lot of young guys in the NBA right now. I think Jalen Brown of the Boston Celtics comes to mind that are very active, you know, in the community as well and in terms of social justice. And, you know, to me, I think LeBron has really set the bar for everyone else. Ben, I wonder how you would respond to that, because Michael Jordan took a very different approach to political issues.

There's this famous line, Republicans buy sneakers, too. And I know now he says it was a joke. But how would you characterize the way that he engaged with political and social issues? You know, very different from LeBron. LeBron, who's talking about Trayvon Martin and Breonna Taylor, who's like outwardly criticizing Donald Trump. I think the clearest sign of LeBron's influence on these matters is the fact that Michael Jordan has reengaged publicly in the last couple of years. I think it's one situation where LeBron actually might have inspired Michael rather than the other way around. You look at Michael Jordan

putting up, I think it was $100 million, you know, for Black Lives Matter over the summer. A statement from the brand reads in part, Black Lives Matter. This isn't a controversial statement. Until the ingrained racism that allows our country's institutions to fail is completely eradicated, we will remain committed to protecting and improving the lives of Black people. And then also sponsoring Bubba Wallace's car. He's now going to be the NASCAR driver who found a noose in his stall. And there was the big controversy around that. The only black NASCAR driver right now. Michael Jordan's now basically going to be like the owner of his team or investing in that.

I think some of these public moves would have been impossible to imagine for Michael even five years ago. I think back in his time, quote unquote, in the 90s, it was better to be discreet. It was better to donate your money and not be seen as a high profile political figure or a public advocate. You know, you could make a difference in your community, but maybe not let everybody know about it. And Jordan's donated millions and millions of dollars, obviously. But I think what LeBron has done is change that dynamic for sure. I do think this is one where LeBron deserves all the credit in the world. He's inspired so many athletes, not just in the NBA, but across all sports.

And I think that the list of athletes he's inspired includes Michael Jordan. Happy Holidays. I'm Frank Cappadocia, Dean of Continuous Professional Learning at Humber Polytechnic. And I'd like you to set a goal for 2025 to sharpen your skills and get promoted. Register for a professional designation, micro-credential, or certificate with Humber's continuous professional learning and ignite your career journey this new year. Our experts deliver accelerated learning from resilience-based leadership to electric vehicle fundamentals and learning options that work with your ambitious lifestyle. Adapt, evolve, and excel. Go to humber.ca slash cpl to get started. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about to get started. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast,

just search for Money for Couples. So obviously talking to you both, this is a pretty nuanced argument, right? Like you could pick your favorite between either of these two players. They're both legendary in their own ways. But I want to finish by bringing things back to LeBron and what we heard him say at the top of this episode, this idea that he wants some damn respect. And, you know, me, I felt like he already has his respect. And Alex, what do you think that he means by that? You know, to me, I think he's just referring to the fact that, you know, as he's aged into his 30s and, you know, before winning the championship this year, his last championship was in 2016. In between that time, between 2016 and now, I feel like a lot of people have tried to anoint different players in the NBA as the best player in the league.

For a period of time, it was Steph Curry when the Warriors were dominating the league. Last year when Kawhi Leonard led the Raptors to the NBA championship and then signed with the LA Clippers, there were a lot of media pundits who believed that the Clippers were a better team than the Lakers because of Kawhi Leonard. And, you know, you saw Giannis Atantakumpo, you know, who's won, you know, back-to-back MVPs. And, you know, LeBron spoke out about how he felt he didn't get enough respect in that regard because everybody was trying to rush to say that maybe Giannis is the best player in the league.

Knowing you've won it four times, but now you've come in second four times, what's that feeling like for you? And what did you think of the results piss me off that's my truly that's my true answer and you know for all the criticism that he's received over the years um in terms of switching teams and all these other things you know i think lebron just feels you know he's been disrespected because over these past few years um people have been kind of rushing to try to knock him off his perch.

Ben, final word to you on that. First of all, as I mentioned earlier, I think Jordan was always worshipped and LeBron has never quite gotten to that level. I think part of it is he's bigger, faster and stronger than just about everyone he plays against. And there are a lot of people who I think, you know, view him as Goliath and like to root against him. I think there's more people who like to root against LeBron than there were who enjoyed rooting against Jordan. And so I think he hears from them constantly, especially through social media. It's just a nonstop stream of negativity in his direction.

And he welcomes even more criticism with the political stances that we've talked about. And so I think for him, it was just his coronation moment of like, all right, everybody who was reading against me, here I am, uh, you know, take your best shot. I'm sitting on top of the mountain. I think that's number one. And I think the second one, it's a matter of age. He's 35 years old. The bubble was an absolute marathon. It ground up so many younger players and younger teams. And if you look at who LeBron beat in the bubble, it's an awful lot of players who are in their mid twenties or their late twenties when they should be in their absolute primes of their careers for him to be the one who seizes back control of the league at this stage of his career. I think for him, it's, you know, you can't knock

me off yet. You know, don't, don't nudge me into retirement. I still have some, some basketball left in me. I think that was the other message he was trying to deliver when he made that statement about respect. Right. That's a really good point. Watching him on Sunday, this guy was just outrunning all these 21-year-olds. It was unbelievable. Alex, Ben, as always, it is such a pleasure to talk to you both.

Thank you so much. Thanks, Jamie. It was a pleasure. Thank you very much. Don't forget, Mike's the GOAT. All right. So before we go today, I want to tell you about some other news. Johnson & Johnson has paused clinical trials of its COVID-19 vaccine trial. The drug company said it's investigating whether a participant's unexplained illness is related to the vaccine.

This is one of the only COVID vaccine candidates that has made it to the final stages of human testing. But we should point out that temporary pauses of clinical trials are fairly common, and the company still has to find out if this participant received the actual vaccine or a placebo. That's all for today. Thanks so much for listening to FrontBurner and talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.