Front Burner - Why are Canadian churches being burned?

Episode Date: January 11, 2024

Thirty-three churches have burned to the ground across Canada, since the discovery of possible unmarked children's graves at the former Kamloops Indian Residential School in May, 2021. In most cases, officials have blamed arsonists. CBC’s Terry Reith details his investigation into the pattern of arson, and how it’s tied to Canada’s dark residential school history. For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Damon Furlis. In the early hours of the morning, members of the Penticton Indian Band spotted flames as a Catholic church burned to the ground. Fires at several Catholic churches in indigenous areas are being treated as suspicious. The fire on Gitwingak First Nation, the latest in a spate of suspicious fires after multiple unmarked grave sites were discovered at former residential schools.

Over the last two and a half years, 33 churches across Canada have been destroyed by fire, many of them by arson. This surge in church fires follows the 2021 discovery at the former Kamloops Indian Residential School of potential unmarked graves containing the remains of 215 children. It is unacceptable and wrong that acts of vandalism and arson are being seen across the country, including against Catholic churches. I understand the anger that's out there, given the shameful history that we're all becoming more and more aware of.

CBC's Terry Reith has been investigating the pattern of churches being burned across the country, and we're going to be talking about what he's found. Hey, Terry, thanks for coming on FrontBurner. Pleasure to be here. It's good to have you. Okay. So let's dive into the, some of the details of your investigation, starting with these churches. So 33 churches have burned down across Canada in the last two and a half years.

And to be clear, these are just the churches that were totally destroyed, right? These are churches that were essentially burned to the ground. They cannot be repaired. They're entirely unusable. Many of them reduced to nothing but ashes. And this is just a portion of the church fires that we've seen in Canada. There are a lot of arsons that occur in churches where the church is just slightly damaged. We wanted things that we could absolutely quantify and a destroyed churches is definitely something that's quantifiable. Okay. So of those 33 churches that are totally burnt down to the ground, now my understanding is that officials have determined that two of those 33

were accidental. So does that mean 31 were deliberately set on fire? Well, arson is a really difficult thing to prove. So we have 24 that were confirmed as arson. We have five that are suspected arson and two of those fires remain under investigation. Okay. So 24 cases where fire officials have

determined it was arson. And I mean, I have to be honest, I'd heard a few of these cases, but really only a handful. I had no idea this was going on to this extent. So like, are they still happening? Yeah. We've been keeping track of this for quite some I had no idea this was going on to this extent. So like, are they still happening? Yeah.

We've been keeping track of this for quite some time and I've had to keep changing and updating the numbers. In Alberta alone, just in the past month, there have been four churches set on fire. In the last month. Three of them were completely destroyed. One of them doesn't make our list, of course. I mean, it was badly damaged, but it's repairable. And that was one of the churches in Barhead. There was another one that was an older church up in Janvier, which is near Fort McMurray.

And the most recent one was just before Christmas. That was in Biseker, which is in the southern part of the province near Calgary. And that was a Seventh-day Adventist church that was fully destroyed. So you mentioned Seventh-day Adventist, but my understanding is that these are mostly Catholic churches, though. Is that right? What's the breakdown of denominations? Yeah. Approximately half of them are Catholic churches. We have five Evangelical, two United, four Anglican, and seven, what I call others, smaller denominations. And that even includes a Church of Latter-day Saints as well.

Maybe you can take us into some of the churches that you spent time looking at particularly close. Yeah, well, the whole church fire issue started in the southern Okanagan, and one of the churches we went to visit was one of the ones that was fully destroyed. And it was just outside Oliver on the Osoyoos Indian Band, where we talked with the chief there, Clarence Louie. But what had happened was there had been two fires that night, one in Penticton, also on the Penticton Indian Band, and the one in Osoyoos. Then two more on First Nations later that week were burned in some Milkemeen region. So these were some of the older, more historic churches, kind of smaller churches.

But the one that really set off the alarm bells was Morinville, St. John Baptiste Church. This historic church has been a staple in the community of Moranville since 1907. It held its first mass in 1908, so this is a very emotional time right now for community members. This was a beautiful old brick structure that really anchored the main street of Moranville, old brick structure that really anchored the main street of Morenville. And it received a lot of attention. And that's when we started to hear politicians and First Nations leaders speaking out. But the interesting thing about Morenville is that it was never really proven as arson. I did speak with one of the investigators there.

proven as arson. I did speak with one of the investigators there. They say that there were multiple areas where the fire started. There were no possible electric faults. They ruled everything else out, but they still couldn't rule it as arson because they just couldn't find that ignition point, that smoking gun that said, yeah, this is an arson fire. I want to talk about potential, you know, who might be doing this, thoughts and theories in just a sec.

But before I do that, I guess I just want to get a sense about these churches and what they meant to the communities and who those communities were. So can you give me a sense of like how were these churches being used before they were lost? How important were they to their respective communities? A real mixed bag here. How important were they to their respective communities? A real mixed bag here. So the Osoyoos Church that we looked at, it was used a few times a year. It was out in the country. There were not a lot of Catholics left in this area, but it was used for dinners. It was used for special Christmas services and that sort of thing. So an older church, it was more for dinners. It was used for special Christmas services

and that sort of thing. So an older church, it was more than 100 years old. So it was used periodically. The one in Moranville was a real community hub. It was used every Sunday. It was a busy church. More than 200 people in the congregation. They had the bells that would ring. It was really the center of the community. We were talking just the other day

about the church bells and how many communities in Alberta or Canada probably don't have them ring every hour on the hour. It really is the root of our community. And here it is, burnt to the ground. There's been so many events that have happened in and outside of this church. Festivals, parades. I really don't know how to feel. I just feel sad as hell. You've been talking about churches that are in the western part of the country, but it hasn't just been in the west where this is happening, right?

No, there were some in Atlantic Canada as well as Ontario. The one that we did find in Quebec, which was in Montreal, turned out to be an accidental fire. But mostly Western Canada, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, BC, Alberta. These are mostly rural communities? Largely rural communities. 14 of the fires were on or in Indigenous communities or on reserves. 13 were in rural or small towns.

Many of those were close to First Nations. Just six of these fires were set in urban areas. Surrey, B.C., Winnipeg, places like that. Okay, so back in 2021, after the news broke that more than 200 potential unmarked graves had been detected at the Kamloops Indian Residential School, this issue of churches being targeted was all over the place. The prime minister commented on it, Alberta's premier at the time, Jason Kenney, condemned it. It's a tragedy to lose a building of this historical significance. to lose a building of this historical significance. But what concerns me more deeply is this follows on other apparent recent acts of arson targeting a particular faith community.

We all know that Canada has to redouble its efforts at reconciliation, but these acts of violence and intimidation is not reconciliation. It's not the way forward. When these fires first started, what assumptions were made about the link to the church's role in residential schools? Yeah, it's very interesting how this story evolved. There was an initial surge of publicity around it, and then people really didn't talk much about it. There wasn't a lot of news. We would see, I'm in a newsroom here in Edmonton.

And so we would be seeing, uh, releases from the RCMP or stories in community papers about another church, another church on fire. And I didn't really see a lot of follow-up happening. That's one of the reasons why I set out to do this story is what has happened here? And were there people charged? Why were these churches being burned? And so at the time, what were the assumptions about who was starting these fires? Well, you know, initially there was, given the

proximity to the Kamloops residential school news, there were a lot of assumptions that this was a First Nations issue. But then as time went by, people stopped really talking about it. It became almost taboo to discuss this as if you are pointing a finger at a particular community. I mean, that really still exists today. It was a very difficult story to do. There were a lot of people that didn't want to talk to us.

There were a lot of people that just really did not want to be involved in this conversation. So one of the people you did talk with, as you mentioned, is Osoyo's Indian band chief, Clarence Louis. with, as you mentioned, is Osoyo's Indian band chief, Clarence Louie. So one of the 33 churches that burnt down that's on the list of ones you looked at was in his community. And that was over a hundred years old. So I guess I'm curious, did he see a connection

between residential schools and the church fire there? Oh, absolutely. That was primarily what we talked about. He and I got together. We drove out to the church site, and he made his feelings about the church well known right from the start. He has no respect for the church. He really feels that the church has served an injustice to Indigenous people.

served an injustice to Indigenous people. But at the same time, he was really angry that somebody set this church on fire. To me, this was a symbol of something bad. So some of our people thought it was a good thing. Some of our people thought it was a bad thing. If you ask in my opinion, it was a bad thing. But that still doesn't mean you burn it down. Yeah, so when I got the call, I wasn't teary-eyed or anything. I was upset that some res punks did arson.

I don't support arson. And whoever did it didn't ask for permission from the rest of the community or the chief in council. Nobody knows who did it. We can guess. I don't think white people came here and burnt this down. guess. I don't think white people came here and burnt this stone. He thinks that the same people that burned the one in Penticton burned the one in his community as well as, you know, there were the two others

that were close by. So he really makes it clear that he thinks that it is angry youth just out there to make a statement. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix.

I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So that's one church in one community. And well, I guess a couple, you know, from what you say in his case. But I guess I'm curious, there are a couple dozen other churches that have burnt.

When you've been talking to people in those communities, have other folks made that kind of connection? Um, the, there is an acknowledgement when I started looking into, well, who has been charged and, uh, what have they been charged with and where have they been charged? It's, it's really difficult to say, okay, this is so-and-so from, you know, a particular First Nation and they did this because of that. Many of these cases have yet to go to trial. So we're, we're, we're, we're dealing with people who have not been convicted in court, and therefore we do not have the court records. We don't know what their stories are, but what we do know is that the people who have been charged in several of these cases are from the communities where that church was burned. You know, for instance, I can use the example of Fort Chippewan. That was, again, it's northern Alberta.

Beautiful old church, an absolute landmark in that community. And it had been attached to a residential school that was, uh, torn down, uh, several years ago. But, uh, two, two men, young men have been charged in that case. And, and, and, and those are people that are from that community and it's not a very large community. So, so it sounds like, like people like, you know, Chief Louie who are in the community are able to draw a line between the resentment and anger of the colonial experience for Indigenous folks and the burnt churches. But we're not necessarily hearing that from the police and fire officials, right? No, the police have been extremely cautious in how they frame any of this.

When I talked with Alberta RCMP, they say, yeah, we really did notice that spike around May 2021. And they say, yeah, we are aware of an idea that is out there that these may be associated. But what they say is we can't find any sort of a link among the fires, uh, be it some kind of an organized group or any sort of an individual, this really seems to be a case of individuals within communities that decide at some point in time, it would be a good idea to go at the middle of the night and set one of these old wooden churches on fire.

So you also spoke with a researcher at the University of Alberta, Polina Johnson. She's from the Musquechese community, south of Edmonton. So what does she tell you about what she thinks might be behind some of these cases? Yeah, she's a professor, assistant professor of sociology at the University of Alberta. She's very well versed on the history. And I have to make the point that she doesn't condone any of this. But what she says is that she can understand how that anger is out there. One of the biggest things about the church fires and arsons that are occurring is that Canada has to have a bigger open dialogue about the issues that are impacting First Nations,

especially Indigenous communities, and the history of genocide and assimilation within them. So, lighting a church on fire is a way for some, she believes, to make a statement. Let's talk about, you know, moving ahead. Let's talk about prosecution. How many people are being caught or charged? What's the likelihood of folks being convicted in these cases? Yeah, and again, we've really focused just on the ones that have been complete losses. focused just on the ones that have been complete losses. So of those 33, only nine have resulted in charges and it's a total of 12 people who have

been charged. Okay. And a couple of cases, you know, such as Fort Chippewan, there, there were two people. The one I'm thinking of now, there was a fire up in Cahaywin, which is, uh, north of Edmonton, northern Alberta. And it was one of the older unused churches, but there was a young man under 18 who was charged in that. And, uh, you know, the youths have not been getting particularly stiff sentences. The fire at Coptic Church in Surrey, British Columbia.

Four years in prison. That is a sentence for a woman who burned a Surrey church and torched a townhouse when people were inside. But questions about the reasons behind... Forged a townhouse when people were inside. In that case, there was absolutely no connection with residential schools or First Nations. This was a case, somebody was having mental health issues, drug and alcohol problems, and they decided to go out and set a church on fire. And they decided to go out and set a church on fire. I guess it's worth highlighting that it is clear that not every single case of suspected arson is necessarily tied to the church's colonial history, right? Precisely right. So I'm wondering about the people who were using these churches, the folks in the community who used them as a place to pray, a congregation center.

Were they in regular use? What have the parishioners been doing to cope with the fact that they've got, you know, charred remnants of these churches in their community now? Oh, these are some sad stories. So, Morenville again, because that was a large congregation, I spent some time up there talking with the people. You know, they absolutely loved that church. They are right now having their Sunday services in a school gymnasium, you know, they, they absolutely loved that church. They are right now having their Sunday services in a, in a school gymnasium, you know, in, uh, on the Osoyoos Indian Band. They have their Sunday services now at the band office. Some, some communities are planning to rebuild, some aren't.

What's happening to the church in Moranville? What's happening to the church in Moranville? So Moranville, immediately after that fire, there was a big campaign launched to rebuild the church. You know, we're talking several million dollars to rebuild a church on this level. And insurance only covers a part of it. So they literally resorted to selling the charred bricks to raise money to build a new one and to get the bells restored. They want to build a nice new traditional church right back on their main street as an anchor of the community. The ones that are not going to be rebuilt are these, you know, hundred year old churches that were in remote corners of First Nations across Canada, particularly in the West.

I don't see any of those coming back. You know, you talked about that, like the cost and labor of rebuilding is enormous. And there's a lot of fires out there for churches. Like, are people concerned that if they rebuild, they'll just, you know, burn them down again? Well, that was exactly the point that Clarence Louis made with me. You know, look, if we rebuild this church, chances are that it'll just get burned down again. All right, Terry, thanks so much.

I really appreciate it. Thanks for coming on. My pleasure. All right, that's all for today. I'm Damon Fairless. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. I'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.