Front Burner - Why ‘Joker’ is a polarizing film

Episode Date: October 7, 2019

This weekend, a new Joker movie hit theatres, polarizing critics and audiences with a gritty take on the DC super-villain’s origin story. The film also caught the attention of intelligence and law enforcement agencies who fear it could trigger public violence. Today on Front Burner, film critic Tina Hassannia unpacks the iconic character and the different sides of the rhetoric surrounding the movie. Warning: There won’t be major spoilers, but this episode will cover some of the film’s plot.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. It's not often that a comic book movie can take home the top prize at a prestigious film festival, polarize critics, and catch the attention of law enforcement agencies who fear it could trigger public violence. But that trifecta is exactly what Todd Phillips' new film Joker has done.

Joker has won the Golden Line at the Venice Film Festival. The FBI alerting local authorities to potential threats detected online. It's easy to see how a film about a frustrated loner who turns to violence is disturbing in 2019. Today, after a record-breaking weekend box office haul, a look at the iconic character and the different sides of the rhetoric surrounding the movie. I'm talking to Tina Hassania. She's a film critic and journalist here in Toronto. And heads up, if you haven't seen the movie yet, there won't be any major spoilers here. But we will be talking about the plot.

This is From Brunner. Tina, hello. Hello. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much for having me. So I saw this movie over the weekend, and I have been thinking about it pretty constantly ever since. I'm really happy that I have this thinking about it pretty constantly ever since. I'm really happy that I have this chance to talk through it with you. I feel very torn.

So do I. Okay, good, good. So before we get into the conversations swirling around this film, let's get a quick idea of what it's about. What is the story being told in Joker? So we're not really dealing with Joker as we know him from the DC comics, at least yet. This is an origin story. So we are introduced to this man named Arthur Fleck. The time is 1981. It does take place in Gotham City, which as pretty much everyone knows, is a stand in for New York City. He's played by Joaquin Phoenix. He is a very sad, depressed person with certain mental conditions to be determined. And he lives with his mom.

People think you're weird. They don't feel comfortable around you. I don't want you worrying about money, Mom. Or me. And he works as a clown for a company that basically offers these men different types of gigs. So they might be working at a children's hospital or they might be holding up a sign for a company. And he is bullied. He is made fun of.

He is just treated like dirt by pretty much everyone that he encounters. And we find out that he also wants to be a stand-up comedian. He idolizes this talk show host played by Robert De Niro. Well, no one's laughing now. You can say that again, pal. And there is no upward trajectory for this person. Over time, he starts to become violent. Right.

And he starts to essentially create something of an anarchist movement by the end of the movie. This idea, you know, he ends up murdering these three young men on the subway who are like investment bankers. And it sort of starts this 99% against the 1% movement. That's right. You think men like Thomas Wayne ever think what it's like to be someone like me? Okay, so before this movie came out, we were hearing a ton about this already, right in the weeks leading up to this weekend's release. Let's start with the positive stuff. Let's start with the hype. Why were some people so excited for this kind of portrayal?

I mean, it's not your typical superhero movie. In fact, I would argue that it almost isn't a genre movie at all. It's very character driven. Yeah. There are not a lot of cars being flipped over. No. I would say that for anyone who is a fan of Batman or DC or the Joker even in particular, this is a really, really exciting kind of movie because it shows you a particular understanding of Joker like we've never seen him on the screen. So I think that that was driving up a lot of attention and excitement for the fans.

This is the comic book movie that I've been waiting for. It's not Shazam or Aquaman or Wonder Woman, where it's like good versus evil and fun. There's a high chance that this is going to be my favorite DC movie of all time already. And I know people were excited about Todd Phillips too. This is a director who directed the Hangover movies. And it's sort of an homage to, like, 70s, 80s classics, especially those made by Martin Scorsese with Robert De Niro, like Taxi Driver, the King of Comedy.

So would you please give your warmest greetings to the newest King of Comedy, Rupert Pupkin. Now, I'd like to begin by saying that my parents were too poor to afford me a childhood in Clifton. Martin Scorsese, some of Martin Scorsese's best works. And so this idea of it being more of a character study driven by someone like Joaquin Phoenix, who has a history of doing these really intense, deep roles, difficult roles in similar kinds of movies where he plays someone either deranged or unhinged or, you know, having some sort of problem and it also just delving into more the character element.

What are you running from? Maybe hurt a man, I think. Maybe he's dead. I don't know. Where? In Salinas, he stole a batch of my booze and he drank it. Rather than, again, like your typical, I mean, like to compare this movie in the same sort of world as, say, Gardens of the Galaxy. Right. I mean, it's. Or Endgame. Yeah. Like it's hard to imagine that they are even remotely alike.

Right. So 93.5 million over the weekend. This now stands as the biggest October launch of all time. So obviously doing quite well. I would imagine part of the reasons why it might be doing quite well is because it has also generated a lot of controversy. And maybe people were curious to see it as well. Let's talk about some of the anxiety around Joker. People were worried that it glorifies violence or that it could be used to inspire

an act of mass violence, something that is a very sensitive topic right now. This doesn't come very far away from two mass shootings in the United States, in Ohio and Texas. We went to sleep with the news of those 20 people dead in El Paso. You are waking up now, I am so sorry to tell you, to nine more people who've been killed in a second mass shooting, this time Dayton, Ohio. you, to nine more people who've been killed in a second mass shooting, this time, Dayton, Ohio. And so tell me more about that criticism. So I know one part of it is that it is tied to incel culture. And that is one of the things that people immediately tagged onto this film, the idea of someone who is so, you know, hitting bottom of the barrel in terms of their mental health and feeling like no one loves them.

No one gives them appreciation. No one gives them attention. I mean, those kinds of things are linked to the same psychological profile as someone who does identify as an incel. And just for people listening, the word incel, it's something that we've talked about on this podcast before. It comes from the term involuntary celibate. It's linked to this like subculture of men who essentially hate women who don't want to have sex with them. The suspect accused of driving a rental van into pedestrians on a busy Toronto street is going to appear in court today. He killed 10 people. This posting, apparently from Manassian,

says, the incel rebellion has already begun. We will overthrow all the Chads and Stacys. I would say one of the major differences between what an incel is and what this movie does is that incels are also very, very, very hateful towards women. And in Joker, his relationship with women in this movie is not the deep hatred that you see coming from incel forums.

He does have complicated relationships with women in the movie, namely his mom. He also has something of a fantastical crush on his neighbor. So he's not in touch with reality, quite frankly. And that kind of thing, I would say, could be used as an argument against the whole incel thing. But everything else seems to match up. This is an angry person. This is a sad person. This is a person who's bullied and who's making a very big deal, or at least the movie is making a very big deal about the fact that these things are happening to him. Right.

And he's not getting the support that he needs. And there certainly is this very clear thread where society pushes him into this madness, right? This uncaring, cruel society. That's right. Right. This uncaring, cruel society that gives him no kindness, particularly in moments where he is very down. Stay down, freak. And so it creates this kind of empathy, right? I've seen documentaries on people who've committed homicide, and they often have very similar stories, quite frankly. It's like they're reaching out for help, they're reaching out for help,

and at some point, because no one's giving to them, they just reach the point of complete breakdown. And this is their response. But that's the thing that I think is interesting is that when you watch this film and you start to develop this empathy for Arthur Fleck. Yes. Right? Up until the violence. And that's when things start to really shift, even in terms of your own perspective. Now, I'm not trying to tell someone how they

should view this movie, but I think it's a pretty common reaction from what I've seen of people watching this film. And so that's when you start to go, oh, okay, so this is the way you're reacting. Hmm. That's interesting. That's, you know, and so it's hard for you to then understand all the violence that ensues. Do you see the criticism, though, that for some people, the violence that ensues might make more sense than it does to you and I? You know, this breaking point for Arthur Fleck? It does. Yeah. I know part of the criticism is that, you know, a young man might be watching that and he might see himself in Arthur Fleck and he might think that the violence itself is justified. Exactly. I didn't know if I even really existed.

But I do. And people are starting to notice. And so I know there have been quite a few concerns over the weekend. A movie theater in California was shut down because law enforcement thought that there was a credible threat there. And also there was a screening in New York and in Times Square. A man was cheering really loudly at a lot of these violent scenes. And when people left to go to the exits, he spat on them. I do remember reading that article and thinking, OK, well, some of these people knew about these threats going in. And so on the one hand, while I think that it is important to identify these kinds of things, especially with the fact that it's not just incels. It's a lot of people who feel disenfranchised. They will take on pop culture icons as their own. And so there was this

idea of incels, for example, identifying and taking on Joker as their own. But when you're talking about it so much, it can create something of a moral panic. And people who were at this New York screening were saying how because they were already so tense, you know, what could have just been seen as someone who was being really annoying during a movie and should have just simply been thrown out, turns into something scary. Something that might not even be that out of the ordinary for New York City, right? It's a really good point that you're making because, you know, this is what happened over the weekend. But before that, we saw the U.S. military sending out a warning. That's right.

To all of its members about this movie. And heightened security in general has been happening. One Canadian cinema chain has banned masks and face paint at all showings. LAPD is also increasing police presence at theaters for the Joker premiere. An army base in Texas encouraged people to identify two escape routes in theaters and run, hide, fight if in an active shooting situation. And I, you know, everyone knew going in that this was going to need to be addressed in some way. And I think it boils down to how much and how much is too much.

And at what point does it become a self-fulfilling prophecy? Have we created this narrative around it? One more example, the family members of the 2012 Aurora, Colorado shooting, a mass shooting that took place at a theater showing the Batman film, The Dark Knight, 12 people died. They wrote to Warner Brothers objecting to this film as well because they were worried about violence too. We started looking into the movie further and to find out what kind of violence was in the movie,

what they were trying to do with the character, if he was sympathetic or not. And the more I read, the more upset I got. Let's talk about how Warner Brothers director, co-writer Todd Phillips responded to this film. So Warner Brothers, I think, did something interesting, which was that they covered all of their bases in their statement. So in response to the family, the victims of these families said that neither the fictional character Joker nor the film is an endorsement of real world violence of any kind. So that is true. And yet they also, you know, stop press for the Hollywood premiere because they knew that they just did not want any anyone from the casting crew to discuss what was going on in the headlines. So they they're they're definitely covering their butts.

And I think that they have to. And I think it's this thing where they acknowledge that they've put out something into the world that has created so much anxiety, whether real or imagined. I think it's a bit of both, quite frankly. But they also don't really want to take responsibility for anything that happens. And that's sort of an interesting question of whether or not they or Todd Phillips are culpable. Right. And this is what I want to talk about and unpack with you today, because I have been thinking about this ever since I saw this movie, and I feel like I could argue both sides. Me too. Right. And I think a lot of people honestly feel that way too.

So, I mean, here's Todd Phillips talking about the possibility of copycat violence here, right? We're making a movie about a fictional character in a fictional world, ultimately. And your hope is that people take it for what it is. You can't blame movies for a world that is so effed up, I can't say that word on this podcast, that anything can trigger it. That's kind of what the movie is about. It's not a call to action. If anything, it's a call to self-reflection and society. It can have real world implications, opinions, but it's a fictional character in a fictional world that's been around for 80 years. The one that bugs me more is the toxic white male thing when you go, oh, I just saw John

Wick 3. He's a white male. He kills 300 people and everybody's laughing and hooting and hollering. Why does this movie get held to different standards? So I look at this quote. Some of it makes sense to me because there were moments in this movie where I thought, you know, maybe you can take something away from this. The idea that people are so unkind to Arthur Fleck at every turning point. It feels like in the movie, you know, I did think to myself that there should be self-reflection there. Yes. You know, about the importance of being kind to people who are different. But at the same time, to say that this is fictional and that this is not real

feels like a cop out to me. It does. Because the themes in this movie mirror so much of what's going on. Yeah. And you can't you can't deny that. You can't deny that. Like they can deny that they can call Joker fictional, but they're the ones who are deciding to also take Joker, who's had a very long history career as this fictional character, taking on many different types of roles and representations and then putting him into this movie that is supposed to reflect or seems to reflect anyway, so much of what is happening in the real world. Right. This revolt of the 99 percent, this sort of lionizing of a character who is like, you know, taking on this role of going up against like the rich, the ultra rich. So this is very much a commentary on society right now. But but on the other side of this, I'm not sure that that you can say that this movie shouldn't have been made, right? Because then we're encroaching on free speech and art. only talking about the incitement of violence, which I do think is a very credible threat and a real thing to consider. And we are obviously very privileged to even be talking about it because we live in Canada, which is relatively much more peaceful and safe than the US, right? But as far as we know right now, there has been no violence linked to Joker happening anywhere since the movie came out on

Friday. And I should say I just read a review by Slate and the author of that review says you just probably shouldn't go see this movie because it's boring. There's also that criticism of it. But you know like to bring it back to the movies that, you know, and I know a lot of people in this day and age, because these films are so old, probably haven't seen, maybe some of you guys have seen Taxi Driver and or The King of Comedy. But in my opinion, like, Taxi Driver is a much more interesting and nuanced story and film. The taxi driver is looking for a target. Getting ready. Preparing himself

for the only moment in his life that will ever mean anything. That would be so much better to talk about because it actually carries an ambivalence about its protagonist and whether or not the movie is for or against his insanity and the things that he does in that film, right?

You're talking to me? Who the hell are you talking to? You're talking to me? Well, I'm the only one here. And how do you think this movie is different? How do you think Joker is different? I think this movie is, I think with Arthur Fleck, it's trying to endear us to his perspective and nothing else. It's trying to get us on his side and see that the world is a really unsafe, scary place.

And as for the criticism the movie received for its portrayal of violence, Phoenix didn't think it was such a bad thing. I think it was really good. When movies make us uncomfortable or challenge us or make us think differently, that's how I felt making it. I think that's why I wanted to make the movie, right? Because it wasn't easy for me. Such a wonderful thing. of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Let's talk about a couple of the other iterations

of the Joker. You know, what are some really memorable ones for you? So let's go back to when things were much more simple and fun in the 1960s and we had the Batman series starring Adam West. Oh, heck. What's the use of learning French anyway? Beck, I'm surprised at you.

Language is the key to world peace. And we also had Cesar Romero as Joker, who is basically a prankster. Oh, how delicious it is. The Joker outwits Batman and steals the fabulous jewel collection right out from under his nose. He wanted nothing more than to rob jewels and have these little heists and basically become rich. And he also liked to play little jokes on Batman. He was fun. He definitely looked kind of ghoulish. I also like the fact

that that actor did not want to shave off his mustache for the role, so they just put grease paint over. It's so great. For everyone listening right now, this is definitely something you want to Google image. When did it turn? Is it Jack Nicholson's character in

Tim Burton's Batman in the 80s? Is that when we start to see a Joker with more gravitas? You ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight? What? I always ask that of all my prey. I just like the sound of it. So in terms of cinematic representations, Jack Nicholson, I think that he was really born to play the Joker. I think that he was really born to play the Joker.

He has this very dark, maniacal, comical energy and face that's almost grotesque. But he's still also really handsome at the same time. He's a complex guy. And in that movie by Tim Burton, we do see a different side, a darker side to the Joker. Though in the comics, that really started in the 70s. So in the 70s, we started seeing the Joker as not just this fun-loving prankster who just really likes to, you know, rob banks or whatever. But we started seeing someone who has a nihilistic bent to them. And if Batman cannot understand the threat,

what the motive behind the Joker really is, other than he doesn't care about anything, then how can he defeat him? That was sort of like the interesting moral quandary that was presented in the comics and that we eventually saw it in a much more simpler form because it's Hollywood cinema with Jack Nicholson and Batman. Jack is dead, my friend. You can call me Joker. you can call me Joker. And as you can see, I'm a lot happier. And then maybe the most famous Joker is Heath Ledger's The Dark Knight.

Then why do you want to kill me? I don't want to kill you. What would I do without you? Go back to ripping off mob dealers? No, no, no, no, you, you complete me. I don't know if Joaquin Phoenix as well surpasses, but let's talk about that and talk about how they stack up. I would, I would say that Heath Ledger, I mean, the two, Joaquin Phoenix and Heath Ledger are both such talented actors that it's hard to pick between them. I would say that the Joker character in the Dark Knight movies are much better written.

So he has that in his corner. But the interesting thing that the Joker character brought out in the Christopher Nolan film was terrorism. Right. was terrorism, right? He plans, he has these over-elaborate schemes to really bring down Gotham City and to release all of the prisoners and everyone and just create mass chaos on a scale that Batman cannot control. If Coleman Reese isn't dead in 60 minutes,

then I blow up a hospital. And that is terrorism, right? The opening sequence of that film, I think, is one of my favorite things because no one really knows who the Joker is and by the end, he is just killing everyone because he just wanted for this heist to go

down. But it's not a heist that, again, just gets him money. It's something that is a catalyst for all of the violence and chaos to ensue in the film. I believe whatever doesn't kill you simply makes you a stranger. Right, right. And I mean, this character, Heath Ledger's rendition of the Joker felt like it took on this cult status, felt like it took on this cult status, which I wonder might have been in part because he died shortly after filming this movie

and received an Oscar post humorously. But something seemed to happen. Yeah, I think that there was a lot of attention given to the role. It would be interesting to know if he would have received the same amount of attention if he hadn't died. I'm not sure if it would have been really hyped up as much as it was.

Right. There were all these memes. He sort of became this icon. There's a reason why he did Joker so well. It's not an easy role to do. Jared Leto, you should be taking notes. Yes. You know?

Very bad. Very bad rendition of the Joker. Yeah. Oh, I'm not going to kill you. I'm just going to hurt you really, really bad. Tina Hassanian, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me, Jamie. OK, so big night tonight for the federal election. This is the only English language debate that will include all the major party leaders.

The polls haven't moved much in this election campaign so far. The conservatives and liberals are basically deadlocked. Tonight could move that needle. We're going to be recording a very late pod with power and politics host Vashti Kapelos. We'll hit all the major moments. So please stay tuned for our Tuesday morning episode. I think it's going to be a good one. See you then.

I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening to Frontburner.