Front Burner - Why residential school survivors want an apology from the Pope

Episode Date: February 22, 2019

An unprecedented summit on the sexual abuse of minors in the Catholic Church is taking place at the Vatican. For many victims, it's a chance to seek justice. That includes Evelyn Korkmaz, a residential school survivor calling on the Pope to apologize for the Church's involvement in residential schools. She tells host Jayme Poisson why and CBC reporter Jorge Barrera helps us understand the historical relationship between the Catholic Church and Canada's residential schools.

Hey there, I'm Kathleen Goltar and I have a confession to make. I am a true crime fanatic. I devour books and films and most of all true crime podcasts. But sometimes I just want to know more. I want to go deeper. And that's where my podcast Crime Story comes in. Every week I go behind the scenes with the creators of the best in true crime. I chat with the host of Scamanda, Teacher's Pet, Bone Valley, the list goes on. For the insider scoop, find Crime Story in your podcast app. This is a CBC Podcast. As I talk about it, I can feel and smell everything that I did back then. And he looks down at me, I'm looking up at him, and he says, that's my little girl.

It's a 30-year-old homicide where we don't have anybody charged and convicted. Felt like a murderer had gotten away with something. Tell me now, did you have anything to do with the murder? Someone Knows Something with David Ridgen, Season 5. Now available. Go to cbc.ca.sks. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. I want to read you a quote. In the face of this scourge of sexual abuse perpetrated by the men of the church to the detriment of minors,

The Pope said those words at the start of an unprecedented sex abuse prevention summit happening right now at the Vatican. Upwards of 200 Catholic bishops, senior clerics, and church officials from around the world are here at the Vatican discussing behind closed doors. And when the Pope talks about all those asking for justice, many Indigenous people in Canada would include themselves in that group. One of those people is Evelyn Korkmez. She is a First Nations woman who went to St. Anne's Residential School in Fort Albany, Ontario. Evelyn is part of a bigger movement in Canada that's been calling on the Pope to apologize for the church's involvement in residential schools.

He has not done so. We're going to dig into that more with CBC reporter Jorge Barrera in a few minutes. But first, Evelyn Korkmaz. That's today on FrontBurner. And before we start, a warning that there are graphic references to sexual assault and abuse in this episode. Hi, Evelyn. Hi. So you're in Rome right now for the summit. And can you tell me why did you want to go there? I wanted to come here to speak on behalf of my people,

the Indigenous people of Canada. I am a residential school survivor myself. I went to St. Anne's Residential School. And can you tell me a bit about your experience at St. Anne's? Yes, I went to school there from 1969 to 1972. And I was raped. And it just changed my whole life. It was something that went on all the time in that school, but we didn't know that it was happening to each other at the time.

I'm so sorry that that happened to you. Thank you. Can you tell me a bit about how it changed your life? It changed my life because I was a young little girl, the age of 10, and I was happy-go-lucky, had the world by the tail. At the age of 10, you don't know what's happening or what it's about or why people are doing this to you. And you're thinking, you know, you're getting beaten up. Is this something that affects you to this day?

Oh, yes. I don't go anywhere alone. I still have anxiety attacks. I develop this speech impediment, as you can hear. Every once in a while, you know, the smell of something will trigger it off. If somebody touches me and I'm not aware that they're going to, you know, I jump out of my skin. I'm a lot older now. That was 50 years ago. And I'm still dealing with it like it happened yesterday. It never goes away. It's not going to go away. And I'm going to take it to my grave.

And Evelyn, I know that you're hoping to get a meeting with the Pope. If you did get that meeting, what would you say to him? I would say you have to stand up and be accountable because if you don't, your institute is going to crumble stone by stone. And I'm looking at the Vatican as I speak to you. And it's just amazing. You know, like, I don't understand why he can't just say, I'm sorry, we've done wrong to the children of the world, and we're going to do something about this. Evelyn, thank you so much for sharing your story with us today.

Thank you very much. Evelyn's story and experiences at St. Ann's, it's part of a much bigger story about the Catholic Church's involvement in residential schools across the country. Jorge Barrera is a reporter at the CBC's Indigenous Unit, and he has reported on this issue quite a bit. Jorge, hello. Hello. Thank you so much for joining us again on the podcast. Well, thanks for inviting me again.

So we just heard from Evelyn Korkmaz, who was a student at St. Anne's, a residential school in Fort Albany, Ontario. And I know you've done a lot of really incredible reporting on what happened there. Can you tell me about what happened at St. Anne's? And then I want to talk to you more broadly speaking about what kind of abuse was taking place by the clergy in residential schools across the country. Well, with St. Anne's, we've probably gotten one of the most detailed pictures of the type of abuse that happened at residential schools. And that's because in the mid-1990s, the Ontario Provincial Police actually launched an investigation

into historical allegations of physical and sexual abuse. This school was a very dark place. And the types of abuse that they faced was pretty horrific. One victim described to the OPP how one nun actually restrained her with a straitjacket type of cloth contraption and sexually assaulted her. Another survivor that I actually interviewed was sexually assaulted by a priest who used holy water in his attacks. He would use the holy water as a sort of lubricant, if you will. Those are such difficult stories to hear. And it also, you know, created an atmosphere where the abused also became the abusers. There's one case where a victim told the OPP that he was found in a basement and surrounded by a bunch of other students who tied a rope around his neck and tried to hang him from the rafters in the basement.

the rafters in the basement. So St. Anne's really has become one of the most notorious schools to come out of that era, particularly because of these OPP documents that the level of detail that they provide is really rare because most of the documents that exist either come from the church itself or from the government. The other document that we do have is the Truth Reconciliation Commission's report into residential schools that contains the testimonies of survivors from across the country. And they all, you know, spoke about being beaten, being sexually abused, being forced to eat food that they didn't want to eat and forced to eat vomit. It seemed like it was more the rule rather than the exception. And on top of that, there was also the isolation and loneliness that these children face. Because

remember, these residential schools were places where children slept and went to school for months at a time. Away from their families. That's right. And we know St. Anne's was controlled by the church. And we know the Truth and Reconciliation Commission has taken testimony from residential school survivors across the country. We know of the 139 residential schools across the country, the majority of them were run by the church. Am I correct? Yeah, about 72%. So is it fair to say that there was this pattern of abuse, of sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, connected to the church was widespread across the country in residential schools? Based on the testimony provided to the TRC by survivors, yes, there was a pattern.

There's just too many people who have since come forward describing this type of abuse, you know, which is why, you know, the residential school settlement agreement created a compensation process for this cover-ups in the Catholic Church of sexual abuse. In Pennsylvania, for example, a grand jury report was released that detailed decades worth of abuse at the hands of dioceses across the state and then subsequent cover-ups. Today, Pennsylvanians can learn the extent of sexual abuse in these dioceses. We can begin to understand the systematic cover-up by church leaders that followed. There have been other reports about child sex abuse within the Catholic Church. For many of us, those earlier stories happened someplace else. Now we know the truth.

It happened everywhere. Are there any allegations or is there any evidence of cover-ups of this abuse in residential schools run by the church across Canada? Well, you know, I think this is a very important question, right? Because what happened in the States and in Pennsylvania was this revelation of this secret archive where it was revealed that the Catholic Church was knowingly moving priests who were, you know, ended up, you know, being involved in sexual abuse, they would move them from parish to parish. Now that, you know, the secret archive and that sort

of systemic cover-up hasn't quite washed across the border into Canada. You know, revealing whether that happened in Canada or not is actually part of an investigation I've been involved with, with the Fifth Estate, through actually the lens of St. Anne's Residential School and what happened there and the OPP investigation there. The OPP actually found one memo about one of the suspects that they were targeting

that was actually written in Latin and addressed to the Oblitz, which ran the St. Anne's, their headquarters in Rome. And this person was like a boatman that transferred supplies and brought in children from a community north along the James Bay Coast to the school. It actually connected him to the order and to the you know the order's headquarters in Rome but there's also a lot of sort of circumstantial historical evidence that the the Catholic Church based on historical record that the Catholic Church was at the highest echelons in Canada was actually concerned and involved in

the running of residential schools. So, for example, we now know, based on the historical record, that the Catholic orders actually taxed these federally funded schools. So they took money from these schools and put them into their own coffers. It was a practice called bleeding the children to feed the mother house. to feed the mother house. The question is, given all the evidence of sexual abuse that was suffered by children who attended residential schools, which were mostly run by the Catholic Church, how much did the church actually know about the actions

of their own priests and nuns in committing these abuses. As we've just talked about, it's clear that what we do know is that there is this long history of sexual abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse. I do know that there's also a bigger effort to get the Vatican to recognize this history. Yes. And that Evelyn is a part of that. Yes. And that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that we talked about earlier has called on the Pope to apologize to the survivors. Yes. And let's talk about what responsibility the Church has taken for this. Up to this point, you know, the House of Commons, you know, following up on what the Truth and

Reconciliation Commission, you know, called for, the House of Commons passed a motion last spring calling on the Pope to apologize. The House A, invite Pope Francis to participate in this journey with Canadians by responding to call to action 58. Nays pour 269. Nays called 10. I declare the motion carried. The Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops has said that the Pope has no current plans to apologize. But residential school survivors like Evelyn say that you know the vatican needs to own up to this they need to take that final step of acknowledging and saying they're

sorry for what happened and what institutionally you know they are responsible for the canadian conference catholic bishops and press conference last year last spring you know they say you know this wasn't the vatican you're saying we're, you know, a decentralized, you know, organization, but in fact you had cardinals and bishops and archbishops all involved in this. But when there are bishops, cardinals involved, it's not the whole church. Bishops, communities with residential schools, collectively and individually have expressed apologies. You know, they deny that there is this sort of link between the Vatican and what was done at residential schools. You know, I just want to put this to you.

Last year, Father Thomas Rozica, who's the head of a prominent Catholic media foundation, he said essentially an apology from the Pope would be cheap, that it would be like a photo op, and that it was essentially the responsibility of the local churches. There are some in the government and elsewhere who would think, get the pope over here just to apologize. I'm sorry, have a photo opportunity and move on. Unfortunately, that's not the way it goes. This is a much more serious process of authentic and true reconciliation. What do you make of that argument? It's really up to the survivors to respond to that. And they have.

And they've said that, you know, this apology is necessary, they feel, to bring healing, to bring closure to this. I'm going to sort of bring this back a little bit, too. So, you know, there have already been apologies at the local level across Canada, in Saskatoon, in Alberta. Today's apology from Archbishop Richard Smith is the first official one from the Catholic Church here in Alberta. To hear the leader of the church offer those words of regret can go a long, long way towards that healing and reconciliation. You know, there have been local apologies from archbishops and dioceses. 2009, there was an apology.

Pope Benedict apologized. an expression of regret in the Vatican, where there were some senior First Nations leaders who were there for that. And Phil Fontaine was one of those. He was the AFN national chief who was involved in sort of leading the push to get this residential school settlement agreement, and his last name is on that court document. Today, Pope Benedict XVI told the delegation of his profound sorrow. to get this residential school settlement agreement and his last name is on that court documents. Today, Pope Benedict XVI told the delegation of his profound sorrow.

That he understands the pain and suffering that's been endured. That he is sorry that we were forced into this tragic situation. Fontaine came expecting an apology from the Pope and he says he got one. We heard what we came here for, right? And it was very clearly stated by His Holiness. And as I said, it gave me great comfort. I asked him recently in response to what the Canadian conference had been saying, and they did mention Pope Benedict's expression of regret, and he said, you know, Pope Benedict's, you know, expression of regret. And he said, you know, that that was appropriate for its time.

But the TRC sort of changed things because one of the things that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission revealed was that there was upwards of, you know, 6,000 indigenous children who died in these schools. And he said, you know, things like that that have emerged since that expression of regret really require the Pope now to just straight up say he's sorry for this. And do we know why he won't say he's sorry? Is this a liability issue or? So there's a couple of sort of main reasons for my understanding why this apology hasn't happened. And one of them is that the Canadian Catholic bishops have not managed to form a consensus on taking that position to the Pope. He's a very consensus-orientated leader who really likes to take direction from the bishops who are closer to sort of the grassroots. from the bishops who are closer to sort of the grassroots.

And because the conference hasn't been able to take a position on it, a consensus to say, yes, this needs to happen, he hasn't been able to say that he will. The other issue is the money issue, and the money issue is related to what it would cost for the Pope to visit Canada. So Pope John Paul II's visit in Toronto left the Catholic Church with a $36 million debt. So there's a concern that, you know, the Vatican doesn't pay for these visits.

It's up to the local church to pay for it. And there's a concern that there's just not enough money in local coffers to pay this off. And he has to come to apologize? Can he not just apologize from the Vatican? I mean, he certainly could, but I think the view from people is that the Pope has to sort of see the people that he's apologizing to. We'll be back in a moment to look more closely

at what penalties the Catholic Church has faced for the abuse perpetrated at residential schools. Discover what millions around the world already have. Discover what millions around the world already have. Audible has Canada's largest library of audiobooks, including exclusive content curated by and for Canadians. Experience books in a whole new way, where stories are brought to life by powerful performances from renowned actors and narrators. With the free Audible app, you can listen anytime, anywhere, whether you're at home, in the car, or out on a jog.

The first 30 days of the Audible membership are free, including a free book. Go to www.audible.ca slash cbc to learn more. And I do want to mention it because you brought it up earlier that there has been a residential school settlement agreement reached in 2007. Years of work by survivors, communities and Aboriginal organizations culminated in an agreement that gives us a new beginning and an opportunity to move forward together in partnership. And that the church was part of this. And so what role did they play in this? Well, under the agreement, the church was required to release all their residential school related documents. The church was also required to make a $29 billion cash contribution and provide $25 million worth of in-kind services for survivors, along with a

commitment to raise $25 million for healing and reconciliation programs. And have they done any of that? Well, that's the issue is this $25 million they were supposed to raise. They haven't raised it. They only managed to raise about $3.7 million. And they managed to get Canada to get them off the liability hook in 2015 so they no longer are required to to raise the remainder of this money and this is one of the things that you know Evelyn also called for during her press conference um you know on Wednesday in Rome that she wanted the church to actually you know finally pay up and this is the Catholic Church of Canada but not the Vatican yeah and is it a distinction

without a difference you know the church has argued you know that you know it's the vatican is independent of this stuff the way it's structured and the schools were were run by orders and they're their own entities but i think there's been some cases that have actually said no that there is there is a direct link between you you know, the individual entities in individual countries and the Vatican. So, and this is what survivors like Evelyn are saying. No, you cannot hide behind, you know, the individual entities, you know, scattered around the globe. And so Evelyn is in Rome this week asking not just for an apology from the Pope, but also for this money that's owed to Indigenous people in Canada because of

the Catholic Church's legacy in residential schools. I know you've spoken to many survivors. Is this what people want? Yes, I think the apology is something that's really important to a lot of survivors. And if it wasn't important for them, I don't think the Truth and Reconciliation Commission would have made it as one of its calls to action. You know, the government has apologized. You know, the Anglican Church has apologized. The United Church has apologized, but not the Catholic Church as the institution hasn't yet apologized. And I think that's, you know, one final piece that people want to hear. You know, this acknowledgement is really important because of the damage that was done to a whole culture of people from various Indigenous nations. I think survivors are

still wondering why the institutional church at the very top has still refused to say their story, even though it's happened in places like Chile and in Ireland? Why hasn't it happened yet in Canada? And that's the question that will remain until a proper answer actually emerges from the Holy See. Jorge, thank you so much again for putting these really vital stories front and center for us. Thank you. Thanks for having me. We reached out to the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops for comment, and they referred us to a passage on their website. It says that since the 1990s,

Catholic bishops and religious superiors have apologized for the sufferings of Indigenous children who attended residential schools. It makes reference to how, in 2015, Pope Francis apologized to all the Indigenous peoples of the Americas for abuses suffered, and in 2018 called for institutional expressions of respect, recognition, and dialogue in dialogue with Indigenous peoples. FrontBurner is a daily podcast from CBC News and CBC Podcasts. It's produced by Chris Berube, Elaine Chao, and Shannon Higgins, who, I just want to note, produced our SNC-Lavalin coverage this week on some pretty hectic deadlines. We have help from Aisha Barmania, Stephen Howard, and Rachel Levy-McLaughlin. And a very special thanks to Anne Penman this week. Derek Vanderwyk does our sound and technical

work. Our music is by Joseph Chabison of Boo Box Sound. The executive producer of Frontburner is Nick Bacay-Blocos. And I'm your host, Jamie Poisson. See you Monday. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog. She names it Gay Girl in Damascus. Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger. The object of the email was, please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone. Available now.