Front Burner - Why won’t the Pope apologize for residential schools?

Episode Date: June 10, 2021

The calls for Pope Francis to fully apologize for the Catholic Church’s role in Canada’s residential schools, including the one in Kamloops, B.C., where what are believed to be the unmarked burial sites of children's remains have been found, continue to grow. Why won’t he? Columnist Michael Coren, who’s covered the Catholic Church for decades, explains.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. The Catholic Church ran residential schools in Canada, lots of them, including the one where the remains of possibly 215 Indigenous children have been discovered in Kamloops, BC. Yet, after all that pain, that suffering and death, the head of the church will not apologize. And while the Pope has expressed his sadness for the situation, that's

about as far as he went. And for many, his message over the weekend, it landed with a thud. Today, why won't the Pope apologize? I'm speaking to Michael Korn about that. He's an Anglican cleric, writer, and broadcaster who left the church eight years ago. At that time, he really couldn't reconcile with the church's teachings on homosexuality. Michael continues to write about the Catholic Church, and most recently, about its role in residential schools. Hi Michael, thank you so much for making the time. Of course. So I wonder if before we get into a conversation about why the Pope won't apologize, you could remind our listeners about the role the Catholic Church has played in residential schools in this country?

Well, the Roman Catholic Church is only one of many bodies. I think it's important to emphasize that because there are people saying, oh, you're picking on the Catholic Church. No, the state, the government, the police, all of the churches, the colonial culture, the settler assumptions, white supremacy, all of these things are involved. You can't single out any. And we all, in a way, have blood on our hands. The issue is that the churches, certainly most of them, if not all of them, have made genuine, explicit apologies. I mean, in particular, the United Church and the Anglican Church. They're visceral, they're emotional, they're heartfelt. particularly the United Church and the Anglican Church.

They're visceral, they're emotional, they're heartfelt. I am sorry more than I can say that we tried to remake you in our image by taking from you your language and your signs of identity. Now, the Roman Catholic Church, so many types of apology have been made. Statements have been given. Church officials point out Francis asked forgiveness in 2015 for crimes against Indigenous people throughout the Americas. His predecessor, Pope Benedict, met with residential school survivors in 2009

and expressed sorrow for their deplorable abuse. But we have to listen to Indigenous people who are saying the Roman Catholic response has not been adequate. And it hasn't. And it has to come from the very top. This is a church based on authority. Whatever the legal or financial consequences, they're irrelevant. That hasn't been forthcoming, and that's why it's very important to highlight and expose the response of the Catholic Church. Okay, I'm hoping today we can dig into why you think that is the case,

starting with this maybe. So you mentioned that there have been some apologies. And so various religious orders that ran the schools, including the missionary oblates of Mary Immaculate, which ran the Kamloops Indian Residential School, have previously issued apologies. But we're hearing a lot about this emphasis on sort of individual responsibility here, right? Like the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops stressed recently that 16 out of 70 dioceses in Canada were involved with residential schools. And each of those are, quote, corporately and legally responsible for its own actions. And Cardinal Thomas Collins, the Archbishop of Toronto, recently told my colleague that he doesn't think an apology from the Pope is the best route, that apologies from individual dioceses are important.

The Catholic Church is made up of, in Canada, it's made up of regions called dioceses and organizations called orders. There are 70 regions and about a couple hundred orders. Some of them were involved in running the residential schools. I think all of them have quite explicitly directly apologized. involved in running the residential schools. I think all of them have quite explicitly directly apologized. And why that emphasis on sort of individual responsibility? Could you explain that to me? I turned it around slightly. I would say, why not? I mean, I have to say, I saw the interview with Rosemary Barkman, which I thought was very well done, with Cardinal Collins, and it was difficult to watch. It was quite painful because there's a lot

of obfuscation and a lot of digression here. When the Roman Catholic Church wants to speak with one voice, it's very good at doing it. Just a couple of weeks ago, the Pope, speaking as the head of the Catholic Church with one voice, said any woman who seeks ordination will be excommunicated, and anyone who helps her to try and be ordained will be excommunicated. Just about a month or two ago, the church, speaking with one voice, said it can never bless same-sex unions. Last year, speaking with one voice, the Pope said that married men cannot be ordained, even in parts of the world where they can't get clergy. There are so few people coming forward. So the church is very good and effective at speaking with one strong voice when it really wants to make a point.

But when it comes to apologising for playing a part with other bodies in cultural genocide and in direct killing of children, for goodness sake, then it's all about individuals and individual darsies and orders. And I'm sorry, it just won't do. We have to ask why won't the Pope apologize? For him to step forward, what he said just a few days ago in Rome was insultingly bland and obviously written by lawyers. I'm sorry, maybe that's a leap on my part, but it seemed to me it was a legally qualified statement. And I'll just note, sorry, and just for a leap on my part, but it seemed to me it was a legally qualified statement. And I'll just note, sorry, and just for our listeners, I'll just note what he did say.

He said essentially that political and religious authorities in Canada should continue to work together to shed light and find a path for reconciliation and healing. And he also tweeted that he, quote, joins the Canadian bishops and the whole Catholic Church in Canada in expressing my closeness to the Canadian people during this difficult time. This sad discovery, he said, further increases our understanding of the suffering of the past. Even saying Canadian people is insensitive because there are Indigenous people who, without hatred of Canada,

say, well, we want to be referred to as who we are, as First Nations, as Indigenous. It was a very bland and weak statement. And I thought in some ways it made things worse rather than better. And there is there's precedent here. There's context because we can't pretend the Roman Catholic Church has been very good and quick at making apologies. I mean, it apologized for its treatment of Galileo. It took about 400 years, but it did. But in all seriousness, for example,

its statements on the Holocaust have generally been very good, but they took a long time. And I think most bitingly, most pertinent is the clergy's sexual abuse crisis, because it wasn't the church saying, my golly, we've discovered this, it's terrible. Common sense cries out to be heard here. We know what happened. It was good journalism. It was hardworking lawyers who made the church admit partially what was going on. And even then, apologies were difficult to produce. I understand they're frightened of the financial consequences, which I think is appalling because whatever. I mean, you pay what you have to pay. But also it's this idea of admitting that as an institution, we were wrong. from an allegedly progressive pope like Francis is that this is the one holy Catholic and apostolic church, and that when he speaks infallibly, and I mean that's hardly ever, ever used, but

if he does on issues of faith and morals, then that's infallible. It cannot be wrong, and the authority given to the pope is enormous and vast. On some subjects, he does seem to be very forthcoming. This is what you will do. But on others, far less so. You know, it's interesting. Why do you think then that he's not doing it in this circumstance? You know, I remember too, in 2015, in Bolivia, he apologized for the treatment of indigenous peoples during the colonial conquest in Latin America. And I also want to say, just like my predecessor, St. John Paul II, I ask that the church, and I quote what he said,

go before God and beg forgiveness for the sins of the past and present of our children. So, like, what's different here? That's a very good point, because he has, in Latin America, this is a Latin American pope, of course, and although Argentina is very different from some of the other nations on that continent, I think he does understand the context, and I'm not sure how much understanding he has of North America,

but it tends to be that Canada is not a majority Catholic country and it's not a culturally Catholic country. Most of our prime ministers since the late 60s have been Catholic, but in Latin America, in Southern Europe, the Catholic culture is the very being of the nation. And if a country is deeply angry with what the Vatican is doing, that does matter. And there's a fear, particularly in Latin America, where evangelical movements have been quite influential in gaining converts. There is an ambiguity, there's an uncertainty, so apologies

will be more forthcoming. But Canada is different. And I mean, even now, I don't know about you, but the reaction, the first few days, I came to Canada in 1984. Sorry, 1987. Forgive me if I'm wrong. I don't recall such anger ever before on an issue, particularly on an Indigenous issue. Everywhere we went, people were so angry. Since then, we've had the obscenity in London, Ontario. Other things have occurred. Even now, I think, it's diminishing. It could well be people are advising the Pope and others in the Catholic Church, give it time. I don't think they're doing that in a callous way necessarily, although I would say it was callous, but it's more, you know, we can deal with this, but give it time. People's attitudes will change, they will lessen's attitudes will change. They will lessen.

They will weaken. I think this is going to be hard for people to hear, this analysis that you're making, because it sounds like these apologies are coming for political reasons, for reasons of pressure, not because they're like the morally correct thing to do here. Yes, I, look, I, I'm, I mean, I know, I was in the Catholic Church for many years, and I know a great many Catholics, well, my wife's Catholic. I know how appalled so many Catholics are, both laity and clergy. These are generally good people. But at an institutional

level, I think there's confusion. I think there are too many lawyers and spin doctors involved. I think there are insurance companies involved. And that might sound cynical, but believe me, it does work in this way. And there is a reluctance to be too open. The idea that missionary work took, I mean, all churches engaged in missionary work, and it was invariably alongside a colonial conquest of a nation. Now, that in itself is problematic, but within that there were degrees of, for example, the Jesuits in Ontario, they learned indigenous languages, they drenched themselves in indigenous culture. Now, we can still say, well, you shouldn't have been there in the first place. If you question centuries of missionary activity by the Roman Catholic Church, that does go to the very heart of what the church

is. And institutions are very difficult in dealing with that, in dealing with the whole revision of their past and their history. So they may feel, yes, it was wrong, but to overturn that, to revise their understanding of that, to question ideas or assumptions of what is right and what is wrong, that's very difficult to do. And I do think that within the Catholic Church, there's a greater reluctance than any other. Well, I know there is, because if you read the statements from Presbyterians and United Church leaders and Anglicans, they've said our entire approach was wrong. The whole thing was error, was dark in its construction.

You're not hearing that from the Catholic Church. They're not saying the very notion of accompanying conquering powers to a nation and trying to convert people, even if we weren't doing it abusively, in itself, it was an abusive thing to do. They're not saying that. I'm not sure they believe that. Right. I mean, essentially, by apologizing at the top, you would have to, it would be an omission, essentially, of an institutional failure when it comes to one of their core values, right? Like to help others find their religion. Very much, very much. And the Catholic Church is in a place of transition. After Vatican II, in the early mid-60s, it seemed to be becoming much more progressive and open.

And now a pope who is progressive on many issues, on refugees, on economic justice, on climate change. Some of his statements have been quite remarkable. Right. And so why do you think then that he hasn't budged on this? I think some people might be surprised by that. He's supposed to be sort of this, I don't know, for lack of a better word, like a woker pope. Well, he is in some ways. As I mentioned on certain issues, it's tremendous. But on other issues, less so.

I think when it comes to the abuse crisis, I think when it comes to sexuality, he's been quite, well, extremely disappointing. When it comes to LGBTQ2 people, he has said a few things that were encouraging. I mean, I've covered this issue at length, and some of the things he's said have been encouraging. But he takes one step forward and two steps back. And when it comes to absolute apology for things, terrible crimes and errors that were committed, there was a time in the U.S., just a couple of years ago when he visited the U.S., when he stood up. One of the first prayers he said was praying for clergy falsely accused of sexual abuse. Now, I agree, a false allegation of

sexual abuse is a terrible thing. But to say that as a prayer at the beginning, no. I remember this, yeah. Pray for the survivors, pray for the victims. And he then had to come back and clarify exactly what he meant. And so he can be quite out of touch. In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix.

I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Cops. One question I wanted to ask you, because you've mentioned it several times during this conversation, is the lawyers, the threat of litigation.

What is the fear of what could happen here? Residential School Settlement Act agreement, sorry, struck in 2007, Catholic entities were obligated to pay $25 million towards healing and reconciliation programs for survivors, although Tavi Grant at The Globe recently reported they have only wound up raising $3.7 million of that money. But what is the concern? What could happen if the Pope apologizes? Well, what you just said is extremely important. Yeah. The Catholic Church is a very wealthy institution, and $25 million is a lot of money in a way, but not in others.

And the Catholic Church is being sued all over the world for sexual abuse, and it has bankrupted certain areas. It is costing a lot of money. There are insurance companies who are no longer insure. But the issue is not that. The issue is that the children were raped, for goodness sake. And if the church makes an explicit apology taking ownership of what happened, there's a very good chance that there will be litigation, and it will be financially costly. Now, I mean, I know Indigenous people who say, I don't want your money. I just want you to say to me, we did it, and we were wrong. But there will be litigation, and quite right, too. And the church isn't very good at this. I'll give you one example. I wrote a column about this in The Star, I think, I can't remember.

I'll give you one example. I wrote a column about this in The Star, I think. I can't remember. But it was quite heartbreaking. It was an abusive priest in Ontario. And he had admitted the abuse. He died now. He was convicted and he videoed a statement that seemed very clinical and not showing any contrition, where he said this is what he'd done.

You knew in those days, sir, that it was a criminal offense, correct? I imagine so. You knew it was a breach of the Ten Commandments? Yes. And a settlement was made, and the church appealed the settlement. So the people who'd gone through this living hell had to relive it in another trial. Now, the jury, in fact, increased the settlement at the end of it. But to appeal a settlement? Now, I don't think that's individual clergy saying that. I think it's lawyers saying we should appeal and people being too weak. But this is a church that not individual clergy, but at an institutional level, is very wealthy.

The property it owns, the artworks it owns and so on. But if you have to sell things, if you have to go bankrupt, if you really are following Jesus, if you're following the Prince of Peace, if you're following a first century Galilean Jewish man who stood with the poor and the marginalized and the oppressed, then just sell it, go bankrupt because you've done a terrible thing,

and there is a price to pay. Michael, before we go today, I wonder where you think this is going to go from here. You know, you mentioned before that, you know, perhaps the Vatican is being advised that people's attitudes here will change. You know, I know that there's a fight right now over records that many scholars are trying to get out of various dioceses. Where do you think this is going to go from here? Well, the documents and files, I mean, it's very important. And I think a lot have probably been destroyed, but not all. And this has always been the case for the church. It's been very reluctant with abusive clergy to make public and available all of its documentation. That has to be, and the government, of course, everyone, but that has to be made absolutely public. There is this reluctance to engage. I mean,

I did so many interviews on radio, and on virtually every one, I would hear the statement, we reached out to the Catholic church, but. So it does does seem to be keep quiet and just see what happens, which is not to say they don't care, but they don't know how to react. They're in confusion. So, I mean, I would be surprised if we heard very much more, but who knows, maybe enough people within Rome, within the Catholic Church here will say, we have to do the right thing. This is a huge institution, and it can move relatively quickly when it wants to. But if it doesn't, it can take an age for anything to happen. Okay. Michael Korn, thank you so much for this conversation. My pleasure. All right, so before we go today, some COVID-19 news.

On Wednesday, the federal government announced that it will be loosening some travel restrictions starting in early July. restrictions starting in early July. So if you're a fully vaccinated Canadian or permanent resident coming back home, you won't have to stay at a hotel as part of your quarantine. But you will have to take a COVID-19 test on arrival and have a plan to stay isolated until the test comes back negative. That is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening and talk to you tomorrow.