Front Burner - Why would ISIS-K attack Russia?

Episode Date: March 25, 2024

On Friday night, gunmen stormed the packed Crocus City concert hall on the outskirts of Moscow, where thousands had gathered for a rock concert. At least 133 people were killed, making it the deadliest attack in Russia for the last 20 years.ISIS-K, an ISIS affiliate, has claimed responsibility — although Russia is casting doubt on those claims.Today, the CBC’s Briar Stewart takes us through what we know so far about the Crocus City Hall attack, and the many questions that remain.For transcripts of Front Burner, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcriptsTranscripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. It was Friday night and some 6,000 people had packed into the Crocus City Hall concert venue on the outskirts of Moscow to see the rock band Picnic. When a group of men broke into the venue, they began shooting and set the building ablaze. Tonight, reports from Moscow suggesting a number of people have been killed

and wounded during a shooting at a concert hall there. At least 133 people are dead and some 140 others are injured. ISIS is claiming responsibility, although Russian authorities are casting doubt on those claims. Today, the CBC's Briar Stewart is here with me to talk about what we know about the deadliest attack inside Russia in 20 years. Briar, hi. Thanks so much for coming back onto the show. Hello. So what do we know so far about how the videos were taken inside that hall as this was all going on. And, you know, what we've been able to hear and to piece together is that this happened, it started happening just before eight

o'clock Friday night. There are reports in Russian media that the car with the suspected shooters pulled up a few minutes before eight. They tried to get in. They fired at the guards. Then they made their way into kind of the large lobby reception area of this venue, which is a very large venue. And then after that, they went into the concert hall itself. And what Russian media is reporting is that they were really only in that hall for about 20 minutes. But we can tell from the videos and what we're hearing from eyewitnesses just how horrific it is. I mean, you can see on the videos,

men dressed in camouflage with automatic rifles just firing, you know, whoever was in there. And then also there are reports and witnesses have said that they saw some of the men with jerry cans, presumably with some kind of flammable liquid because we know that the concert hall was set on fire. Yeah. Speaking of those videos, which are, you know, as you mentioned, terrifying, unbelievably chilling, I know that you spoke with an eyewitness who had also posted a video of the attack,

which I found very difficult to watch earlier this afternoon. And what did he tell you about that night? Yeah, so he was there, Kirill Smolianinov, and he was there because he's a big fan of the rock band Picnic that was playing, and he was going to basically film the band. I wanted to take photos of Picnic because I love them so much. I love this band. I love them a lot. And so he was outside of the kind of the amphitheater itself in the lobby.

He didn't hear the gunshots at first, but he saw that the people around him started to behave in a way he didn't expect. And that was kind of the direct translation of what he said. But what he meant was people were starting to panic. They were concerned. They could hear loud noises. They didn't know what it was. And then just like that, it became very clear that what people were hearing was gunfire. A young lady ran past me,

and I thought maybe it was part of the performance by Picnic or something else. And then when I realized the sounds were gunshots, I had to do something. I don't know why, but I grabbed my camera and I started shooting. And it's remarkable, I mean, as terrifying as his video is, I mean, it is something to watch. And he's filming most of the people kind of flee the area, run towards the exit.

But then you had a small group, maybe four or five people, who decided that they wanted to, you know, they thought it would be safer maybe to crouch behind a metal pillar and even, you know, use like some plastic chairs that were there to try to form a barricade. And so he filmed them. And as he did that, after that, he said he needed to get out of there. So he went up the escalator and he said when he was on the escalator itself, he was actually fired at. And so he was kind of crouched down on the escalator.

At some point he gets up to the next level and he's still filming. He's still taking video and he could see the shooters on the ground level at that point still firing at the people that were there. It's a real tragedy. People died. Real people who were there. It's a real tragedy. People died.

Real people who were alive. They had kids yesterday. They were living, enjoying life. They came to the concert, but instead, this happened. It's cruelty. Yeah, I can't imagine how terrifying it would be to be in that space. And you mentioned Jerry Cairns and the use of fire. The attackers, they also use the fire in ways that experts have said suggest that that they plan this out quite carefully right yes and even

actually in the the statements coming from russian officials on this they do talk about it being a carefully planned attack um and there are reports that the fires were lit near emergency stairwells, so it kind of forced the crowd all into an area where they could be shot at. And, you know, the death toll is going to keep rising right now. It's over 130 people who have been killed. And we know that a great many of them died because of the fire itself. Russia said they died because of poisoning. But what it was was the smoke because you had people trapped inside that building as the roof was collapsing. So you can just only imagine how horrific it would have been. it would have been. And, you know, we've seen the images that Russia has released of the crews going into the building the next day, sifting through the charred debris, trying to find bodies.

And yes, we know there's, you know, more than 130 who have been killed. There are more than that, that are still in the hospital, and they do expect the death toll to increase. Yeah, it's a horrendous death toll. The worst attack since the Beslan school siege, which some people may remember, which was a horrific, horrific attack in 2004. And that ended with the deaths of more than 330 people, more than 180 of whom were children. And some children were victims this weekend as well, right? You and I are speaking late Sunday afternoon, Eastern Standard Time, on the day that Russia has declared a day of national mourning. And do you have a sense of how people there are processing this attack right now? Well, I mean, it is, you know, people are in mourning. It is horrific from any

standpoint. And, you know, very large crowds came out in front of the concert hall to lay flowers, to participate in religious services that were there. People are really shaken by this because it has been, as you mentioned, Beslan, 20 years since there has been an attack on this scale. And during the late 90s and early 2000s in Russia, there were frequently terrorist attacks. And when Vladimir Putin came to power, security was a big part of his political pitch. He was going to make Russia secure. And, you know, in recent years, in a lot of way, it has been. I mean, you haven't had these kind of, you know, bombings or massive attacks. And then for this to happen

and to have it be just so horrific and such a large death toll, I think people are shaken by the fact that this has happened. And there's also just confusion over why, why now and who is responsible. Well, let's get into that then now. Russia's Federal Security Service, the FSB, has said that 11 people have been arrested, including four of whom were, quote, directly involved. Do we know anything about the people who were arrested? Well, Russia says that they are all foreign nationals. And I think we do have to say whenever we are getting information from Russia, particularly the FSB, the security services, given their track record from before of not being truthful or transparent, I think we do have to take information coming out of Russia with some skepticism. So let me just throw that out there. In terms of the 11, what Russia is saying is that four of the men were directly involved in the shooting at the hall themselves. And they say that those four men were arrested

early Saturday morning in Bryansk region, which is a region in Russia near the border with Ukraine. And President Vladimir Putin has come out saying that they believe, based on their preliminary data, that the men, those four men were trying to go into Ukraine and that there was a window where that would have been facilitated. Of course, he's making that claim. There's no evidence that they're producing to back that up. Ukraine denies that it's involved at all. But that's kind of the information coming from Russia. And then at the same time, you have videos it's involved at all. But that's the kind of the information coming from Russia. And then at the same time, you have videos that we can't verify, but videos that

are circulating on Russian state TV, Russian telegram channels, where you see some of these suspects, one in particular, appears to be interrogated while he's lying on the ground. And, you know, he's saying that they are asking him why he was there. And he says, I came because somebody had asked me to online. I was, you know, watching videos and talking to a preacher. And he said he was paid basically the equivalent of $7,000 to go to the hall-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization. Empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections.

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I want to come back to the alleged Ukraine link in a moment. But first, an offshoot of ISIS has claimed responsibility for the attack, right? And tell me a little bit about this group that has claimed responsibility. It's called ISIS-K. Yeah, ISIS-K, ISIS-Khorasan. And so they're a branch of ISIS, and they're very active in Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan. And they are, have kind of emerged as the main challenger to the Taliban in Afghanistan. And in recent years, they have repeatedly launched attacks, including on the Russian embassy in Afghanistan. And so I think there has been a lot of questions about, you know, why why ISIS would potentially go after go after a Russian target now. And one of the kind of the narratives that keeps getting brought up is the fact that, you know,

Russia has developed stronger ties with the Taliban. I mean, I only lived in Moscow for about six months because of the war. But one of the stories I covered when I was there was when a Taliban delegation had come to Moscow. So Russia has, you know, facilitated stronger ties with the Taliban. So that could certainly have been a reason. We also have to remember that Russia backed the Assad regime in Syria, which was, you know, fighting ISIS. So that could also be part of this. So that could also be part of this. But we do know that, you know, in recent weeks, Russia has said that it has foiled ISIS plots, including one earlier in March at a synagogue in Moscow. So despite the fact that Russia hasn't specifically talked about ISIS in terms of what happened on Friday, it was, you know, the ISIS threat was something that they had still acknowledged. Yeah.

And how strong is the evidence that we're seeing right now supporting ISIS's claim that they are the ones responsible for the attack? Have we seen anything, you know, that might back that up besides a possible motive, obviously, and also them saying that they're behind it. Well, yeah, I mean, the evidence is pretty strong. ISIS-K first claimed responsibility Friday night. And then since then, they have put out a video that one of the attackers took as they moved through the concert hall, just a really horrific graphic video. That is out there. There is also a picture that ISIS put out of the four shooters,

and investigative outlets have kind of compared the clothing worn in that picture with the clothing worn on the attackers in the video and believe that it looks the same. And that, of course, we have to remember that, you know, before this happened, about two weeks before this happened, the United States put out a pretty specific warning on March 7th to their citizens, advising them to avoid large gatherings in Moscow because they had information that extremists were looking to target things like concerts. And so, you know,

that was a, it was a very specific warning. It was a 48 hour warning. And as I said, that was back on March 7th. But obviously, you know, the United States intelligence agencies had a reason to put that out. And, and that, you know, that's very important to remember in all of this. Right, right. And the US has come out and said that they also communicated that to Russian authorities, right? Like through their own channels as well. Let's come back to the fact that Russian officials, including Vladimir Putin, are instead pointing the finger to Ukraine. Actually, my understanding is, and please correct me if I'm wrong, like officials aren't even uttering the word ISIS. And if if they are, it's basically like kind of in it seems like mockery. So like I want to quote something that Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova told wrote on Telegram.

So she's like mocking U.S. intelligence reports about ISIS's involvement. And she says, quote, I wish they could have solved the assassination of their own President Kennedy so quickly. But no, for more than 60 years, they have not been able to find out who killed him after all. Or maybe that was ISIS, too. So talk to me a little bit more about, you know, why they're saying it's Ukraine, whether or not they have put forward any evidence supporting these claims. Yes. I mean, you can tell in Maria Zaharfa's comment there that she's mocking the U.S. as she does frequently. And in terms of ISIS, no, they haven't mentioned ISIS at all. They have on state television shows, certainly, but we have not seen in the statements

made by officials, by Russian officials, any mention of ISIS. And particularly with President Putin and his address to the nation, he didn't mention ISIS. He talked about those would be, you know, people being would be held accountable for this barbaric act, but didn't mention ISIS at all. What he did mention was Ukraine. And I think what Russia watchers, political observers see is Putin being kind of a tactical politician trying to spin this to really suit his own narrative, which is he wants people to kind of unite suit his own narrative, which is he wants people to kind of unite and kind of rally around the flag and, you know, be even more determined to support Russia's war on Ukraine. And I think that is what, you know, a lot of very smart analysts that are watching this see happening is that, you know,

Russia does not want to talk about ISIS. They don't want to talk about any kind of Islamic terrorism. You know, they don't want to remind the public, you know, that there was this warning that they seemingly disregarded. I mean, you had Putin say that this U.S. warning was nothing more than blackmail, and it was the U.S. trying to destabilize Russia. Right. Of course, just a few days after he says this, you have the worst attack in 20 years. So Putin doesn't want to talk about ISIS. He doesn't want to talk about terrorism. What he does want to talk about is about Ukraine and Russia's war in Ukraine.

And that's why we see, I think, Russian officials spinning it this way. Right. It's a far more expedient explanation. This groundwork that they've been laying to blame Ukraine here, to lay the blame at the feet of Ukraine, has Ukraine responded to that? Yes, they have. And they did, you know, even before the statement from Putin and some of these other statements we've seen over the last couple of days, Ukraine was very quick to come out and say that we had nothing to do with this. You had the intelligence and say that we had nothing to do with this. You had, you know, the intelligence agency say that. And then over the weekend, President Volodymyr Zelensky said that, you know, it was ridiculous to point the finger at Ukraine. And he said, basically, what Russia is doing, what Putin is doing is what they always do, is they're looking for somebody

else to blame here. And I should also note that the U.S. has said, you know, they have every reason to believe and that was ISIS that carried out this attack. And you have, you know, a number of Western officials that have called Russia's claims about Ukraine preposterous. You know, Briar, I have heard people, you know, experts talk about how, you know, one of the reasons why this might have happened is because, you know, Briar, I have heard people, you know, experts talk about how, you know, one of the reasons why this might have happened is because, you know, the Russian security establishment gone after certain groups like the LGBTQ community, any kind of political dissident. And so I think there is something to be said about the fact that you have this terrorist attack, which the U.S. appeared to have warned very strongly about.

And you have this attack kind of go ahead, unimpeded. And I think there is something to be said of the fact that you wonder what kind of resources Russia is dedicating to threats in the country, because obviously, a lot of time, a lot of police resources, a lot of legal resources are being spent on going after political dissidents. And you wonder how something like this could have happened. Are experts and people who follow this closely worried about what could happen next, you know, given where Russia is pointing the blame here? you know, essentially what Russia might unleash now in the name of retribution? Yeah, I think probably the people that I've been speaking with, the concern more is what might happen within Russia. Because Russia throughout their entire war in Ukraine, it has never really, you know, needed justification to do more because it does

it anyway. Right? I mean, you know, they can just do more because it does it anyway. Right? I mean, you know, they can just fabricate reasons. They don't need, you know, something to further their war in that country. But I think the concern is, is just will the Putin government use this attack as a, you know, as a kind of a starting point to even put out more repressive measures on the population in the name of tightening security. So things like border control, you know, or, you know, targeting of more minorities and immigrants. I think that is kind of the concern that people have is just what will happen domestically because of this attack.

Briar, thank you so much for this. It was really great to have you on again. Thank you. Absolutely. You're welcome. All right, that's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening, and we'll talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.