Front Burner - Will Boris Johnson be the next UK Prime Minister?

Episode Date: June 7, 2019

UK Prime Minister Theresa May resigns as leader of the Conservative Party on June 7th. But she will stay on as a lame duck Prime Minister until her successor is chosen. Today on Front Burner, CBC Europe Correspondent Margaret Evans on who that successor might be, and what they'll have to grapple with as the country faces down Brexit: "It's a huge, huge mess in this country. People are angry, they're scared, they're tired of it."

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Uncover bomb on board. Investigating the biggest unsolved mass murder in Canada. CP Flight 21. Get the Uncover podcast for free on Apple Podcasts and Google Podcasts. Available now. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. UK Prime Minister Theresa May officially steps down as leader of the Conservative Party today. It's something Brits have been expecting and even joking about for a long time. She sort of reminds me of Rasputin.

She's just so unbelievably resilient. And no matter how many people go, just go away, she'll go, all right, well, I've understood what you've said and that's why I'm going to stay here a bit longer. She will stay on as Prime Minister until her party chooses a replacement, a person who ultimately will be responsible for doing what May just couldn't do, ushering the country through Brexit. My CBC colleague Margaret Evans is watching it all go down, and she's here with me now from London. Together, we'll break down the race to lead the Tories and talk about what's at stake for the United Kingdom. Because Brexit is very much still a mess. This is FromBurner. Hi, Margaret. Thank you so much for making the time to talk with me. I know this is a very busy week.

Thanks for having me, Jamie. Happy to be here. So, Theresa May has resigned, and can we go over what happens now? The race for her successor begins next week. It's kind of a complicated affair, and lots of people in the United Kingdom are not happy about it, because it means basically that the Conservative Party is going to choose the next prime minister and not the people of the country. It's an internal party race, and they're going to whittle it down to just two candidates. That's MPs voting for these candidates. And then it goes to a postal vote amongst the general membership of the Conservative Party.

So is there a sense that once the Conservative Party chooses the next leader, there will be an election or no? Will that person just become the prime minister of the UK? That person will be the PM unless there's, you know, extraordinary pressure from the street. And, you know, there might be. I mean, we've seen some pretty big demonstrations over the past couple of years. You know there's increased support for another referendum and people are now saying that Brexit you know Brexit didn't mean Brexit as Theresa May kept saying. Because Brexit means Brexit means Brexit means Brexit. I had no idea it was going to lead to this. I had no idea that after two years we would have gotten nowhere.

And that the Conservative Party is imploding. You're seeing kind of a shift in British politics. You know, people leaving the traditional parties, joining new parties and all the rest of it. They're saying you can't just anoint a prime minister at a time of crisis like this. Right, right. So I want to talk to you today about who might fill May's shoes. And I guess we don't know what will happen after that. But I saw when Donald Trump was in town for his official state visit this week, he couldn't help but weigh in on the future of Brexit and the Tory leadership race.

And he seems to have a favorite, and that seems to be Boris Johnson. So I know Boris. I like him. I've liked him for a long time. He's, I think he'd do a very good job. I know Jeremy. I think he'd do a very good job. I don't know Michael. But would he do a good job, Jeremy? Tell me.

Yeah, the Boris and Donald romance. Romance, right? Yeah, yeah. Maybe Borance. It began a while ago, even though they kind of had a dodgy beginning in that, you know, if you remember back to the time when Donald Trump was talking about how London was a city of no-go zones because it had, you know, Muslim populations, and he got in a big spat with the London mayor, Sadiq Khan. We have places in London and other places that are so radicalized that the police are afraid for their own lives. And Boris Johnson at that time kind of dived in saying, well, the only reason that I would feel nervous is that I might bump into Donald Trump.

You know, he was very negative about him in the beginning. I think he's betraying a quite stupefying ignorance that makes him frankly unfit to hold the office of president. But now they're the best of friends. And, you know, last year when Donald Trump came, he made a point of saying that Boris Johnson would make a great prime minister. It was seen as a great insult to Theresa May at the time because she was hosting him. I think he's got what it takes and I think he's got the right attitude to be a great prime minister.

And then, yeah, this press conference, I was there. He was asked about what he thought about the next leader. And, you know, he said, Boris will do a good job. And, you know, they're of a type in a way. So it could be a case of like-attracting. Like-minded thinkers or like-minded doers. Yeah, or just, you know, they're larger than life. They're almost cartoon-like.

You know, I've been out covering a campaign where Boris Johnson is campaigning. You know, and people, he's recognizable. They like him. You can throw anything at him, and it doesn't seem to faze him. People think, hey, you know, it's that old thing. I could go for a beer with him. I could drink a cup of coffee. It's Boris.

We all know him. And I think that there's that kind of similarity that they have. Right. Sort of the anti-politician politician. Exactly. And they're both kind of saying, hey, we're just ordinary guys when they're anything but ordinary guys. This is your first news conference since your appointment. Can I give you this opportunity to apologize to world leaders you may or may not have been rude to? I'm afraid that there is such a rich thesaurus now of things that I've said that have been one way or another, through what alchemy I do not know, somehow misconstrued,

that it would really take me too long. So can you tell me a little bit more about Boris Johnson? And I know that he's had this larger-than-life role looming over UK politics for a while now, and also the role that he played in Brexit. Yeah, you know, actually, at the beginning, when they were talking about the referendum here back in 2016, some people thought that Boris actually might join the Remain campaign. In the end, he didn't. That didn't surprise me so much, because I was actually based in Brussels back in the 1990s when Boris was there. And he was a journalist for the Daily Telegraph. And he sort of, there's a lot of misinformation in Britain about the European

Union, partly because it's such a complicated, it is a big bureaucracy, and it seems far away from people. But Boris used to write all sorts of outrageous things in the British newspapers about British regulations, you know, things that just weren't true, you know, that the EU was trying to impose, you know, a standard size banana. On bananas, how many directives do you think there are from the European Union on bananas?

There are four. Do we need them? Do we need to be told that you cannot have, you know, abnormal curvature of your bananas? You know, there were all sorts of these kind of Euromists floating around, you know, that you couldn't call tomato a jam and this kind of stuff. And Boris was a big part of that. And a lot of it just wasn't true. So he was setting the stage in a way, if you like. And then he became one of the major figures in the pro-Brexit campaign. And again, because what we were talking about, you know, he is one of these headline grabbers, you know, and he was the London mayor. You know, he famously arrived on a zip line down from Tower Bridge.

Oh, that zip line thing is the best. Yeah, the Union Jacks. It's very, very well organized. What they do... Get me a ladder. You know, he's not afraid of looking silly. He rides around on a bicycle. He's got that toe-colored hair.

And he used to be on a lot of political quiz shows here as well. So he's just kind of, you know, he's almost like a celebrity. I know that he's also a pretty divisive figure in that he's quite gaffe-prone and I guess indelicate, but he's also said some things that would be considered really offensive to people. Am I right about that? Yeah, I mean, he famously said about Barack Obama that he might have a dislike of Britain. This is when Obama was accused of getting involved in the Brexit debate by saying that if Britain wanted a deal with the United States, a free trade deal, that they'd have to go to the back of the line. And I believe the UK strengthens both our collective security

and prosperity through the EU. And Johnson was talking about Obama and said he had a dislike of Britain and it might, you know, be down to his Kenyan heritage. He says things like this with this kind of tone deaf attitude as if he's not quite sure what what century we're living in but you know and and sometimes because he's this sometimes comical figure people tend not to take it seriously but he's also the former foreign secretary he was a foreign secretary under Theresa May and what he says has consequences and there's still a British Iranian woman in jail in Iran. She'd been arrested and accused of, you know, working against the state in Iran. And Boris said, you know, kind of just off the cuff that, well, she certainly wasn't doing that. She was just there teaching journalists.

And, of course, they said, aha, that's exactly what we're saying. She's trying to influence. My remarks on the subject before the Foreign Affairs Select Committee could and should have been clearer. And I acknowledge that the words I used were open to being misinterpreted and I apologize. You know, and she's still in jail and, you know, he's just very off the cuff and what he says does have consequences. And look at the consequences of his support in the Brexit campaign. You know, he was a major factor in that. They say we have no choice but to bow down

to Brussels. We say they are woefully underestimating this country and what it can do. I understand that he's also now facing trouble for misleading the public in the Brexit referendum. So there also seems to be consequences for him. Yeah, well, I mean, I guess we'll see how that goes. Somebody has sued him. You remember the big red bus in the referendum campaign? It was the Brexit bus, and it used to tour about the United Kingdom. And on the side, it had this big, you know, 350 million pounds a week.

That's what we send to the European Union. Leave on June the 23rd, we can take back control of 350 million pounds a week and spend on our priorities here in this country. You know, and the Brexit campaign was basically promising to put that money back into the NHS. But the figure is not correct. And so basically, they've been accused of lying. And for people who want to remain in the European Union, it's something they've really seized on, and somebody has decided to take it to court. And he'll have to, the judges rule that he does have to appear to face the charges. There's a lot of discussion about whether this should, you know, is this correct? Are you going to start taking people to court for everything they say? But on the other hand, some people say, well, this is the era of

fake news. And how do we actually have a referendum or an election or whatever, make any decisions, if there's no accountability for what's said by our politicians. Although, I mean, man, that also seems like quite a slippery slope in that you probably take a lot of politicians to court. Yeah, I mean, where do you stop? Yeah, that's right. There would be a pretty long list in the docket, you know. Is it fair for me to say that there are people who are just incredibly concerned about him becoming prime minister because of this, because of all of these gaffes, because of his tenuous relationship with the truth? Like, are there people who are really concerned about this? Yeah, absolutely. There are really concerned about this? Yeah, absolutely. There

are people concerned about it, you know, but everything, almost everything these days that happens in the United Kingdom is within the context of Brexit. The people who are most exercised about it would be the Remainers, you know. I remember actually the day of the referendum results, the day they came out, being in the butcher shop or something, and the man on a mobile phone kind of shouting at whoever he was speaking to and saying, if I see Boris Johnson in person, I'm going to, you know, bleep, bleep, bleep. You know, he sees him in that relationship. But he has a fan base. And there are lots of people who genuinely want to leave the European Union. And within the Conservative Party family, there are lots of people who say, I mean, they're in such trouble now because so many members of the party do want to see this Brexit go ahead.

They say Boris is the only one who can bring back the people who are leaving for the Brexit party because he is this populist, popular figure. Is there a sense that Boris Johnson will be the next prime minister? Or are there other people that could very well win this Tory leadership race in the next several weeks? I think anything could happen. I don't think that, you know, that's how Theresa May came to power. You know, David Cameron stepped down and the Conservative Party had a race to choose his successor. In the end, nobody ran against her, but people thought that Boris was going to win that time. He was sort of knifed in the back by Michael Gove, who's another candidate. Just days ago, you were backing Boris Johnson, in fact, running his campaign.

Why have you changed your mind? I hoped that Boris Johnson would be someone who could ensure that the government followed the instructions of the British people. But I've realised that Boris isn't capable of building that team. I'd say he's certainly the best known. He's gotten a lot of headlines because of Donald Trump.

But I don't think it's a certainty that he would win. We'll be back in a second. Discover what millions around the world already have. Audible has Canada's largest library of audiobooks, including exclusive content curated by and for Canadians. Experience books in a whole new way, where stories are brought to life by powerful performances from renowned actors and narrators. With the free Audible app, you can listen anytime, anywhere,

whether you're at home, in the car, or out on a jog. The first 30 days of the Audible membership are free, including a free book. Go to www.audible.ca slash cbc to learn more. One thing I wanted to talk about with you today is Brexit itself. You know, Theresa May tried what seemed like for me watching this from across the pond, very hard to get her deal passed, and she didn't succeed. The ayes to the right, 286. The noes to the left, 344. Mr. Speaker, I fear we are reaching the limits of this process in this House.

So if Boris Johnson takes over, Michael Gove takes over, or somebody else becomes the Tory leader, why might they have more luck than Theresa May has? You know, I'm not sure that they will have more luck. I mean, this is the biggest crisis, is how Brits would describe it. They say this is the biggest crisis in the United Kingdom since the end of the Second World War. You know, very much in the headlines this week because of the D-Day anniversary celebration 75 years ago. So it has been the Achilles heel for, you know, more than one British conservative leader in particular.

The Eurosceptics are extremely strong in the Conservative Party. They're seeing the Brexit Party come in further to the right. They're kind of taking away that middle ground that used to be there. And if I look at the leadership candidates who are in the field right now, they're all talking about the big question is, would they support Britain leaving the European Union without a deal? And no deal Brexit. Yeah. If I get in, we'll come out deal or no deal on October the 31st.

We'll do that. Thank you very much. Would that make you come back and vote Conservative again? There's only one candidate standing who wants to see another referendum. But everybody else is like, yep, we're going and I can do it. I can get us out of here by Halloween. Okay. But, you know, it's a huge, huge mess in this country. It's people are angry, they're scared, they're tired of it. And the Conservative Party is kind of eating itself from within. So it is a huge task. These candidates and whoever takes Theresa May's spot,

are there any lessons that you think they can learn from her time at the helm? Well, I guess number one would be don't call a snap election, because if you remember, she was chosen by the Conservatives. She became the leader. They had a majority. She thought she could increase that majority, called a snap election. She couldn't. What I've said was that I knew that the campaign wasn't going perfectly. So I'm not sitting here and saying...

It's rather more dramatic than that. And that meant, you know, she's been ruling with a minority government, with the Democratic Unionist Party from Northern Ireland. That's made her very vulnerable. It's made it difficult to get her agenda through Parliament. I'd say if you're a woman, don't cry, because the media loves to hit you for that. If you do, you're a weak woman. If you don't,

you're the Iron Lady. But, you know, on a more serious note, when she announced that she would, in fact, step down as leader of the Conservative Party and thus eventually as the prime minister of the country, you know, she also gave a little speech, a little bit of a lecture, which she has a tendency to do or has had as a leader, saying that, you know, people had to learn to compromise. He said, never forget that compromise is not a dirty word. Life depends on compromise. And, you know, of course, people say that that has been her greatest failing and her Achilles heel in that she just didn't compromise, wouldn't compromise, didn't try to speak and reach out to the more moderates in her party or across party lines.

And it got her into this quagmire where she was actually battling Parliament. And that would be, I guess, my fourth and maybe last lesson that the next person might want to take on board is, you know, the Parliament has been divided and messy. And a lot of people have said they're incompetent, what are they doing? But the Parliament was really fighting back at the end. And they're the ones who were basically saying no, and we're not going to let Britain crash out of the European Union without a deal, because they say that would be disastrous for the economy, for business, that it must be managed and orderly, and they have to be prepared. And in the end, Parliament was getting it together that way, the people who didn't want to see that

happen. And one of the debates right now amongst the leadership candidates is, you know, the ones who are promising that that's it, deal or no deal, we're exiting on the 31st of October, they're saying, if we think Parliament is going to block us, we're going to shut down Parliament. And that's pretty dangerous. And so this next leader, if they don't compromise, if they shut down parliament, if they push this deal through, how can the country move on from this incredibly divisive question? You know, it's a really good question. And I don't, you know, I don't have the answer. And I don't know that that I've ever covered a story where you honestly just can't predict from one day to the next. It's so uncertain. Some, you know, people that live here talk, say that there's no, they're pretty sure that it's not going to happen, that it's so divided right now that they won't leave, they

won't leave the European Union, but then the anger on the side of those who do want to leave will grow even more. And that's why some people say the only way is to have a redo, another referendum. But I don't know the answer. I would say that, you know, you have to look at the other parts of the United Kingdom as well because Scotland, you know, is saying, you know,

she's going to have another referendum on independence because they feel like they're being dragged over a cliff, you know, put into a barrel and sent over Niagara Falls without a say in any of this. Wow, it is incredibly complex.

And Margaret, thank you so much. I have really enjoyed this conversation. It's such a pleasure to be able to talk to you. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Well, thanks for having me. I've enjoyed it. Okay, so we keep joking that we're a Raptors podcast now, which isn't true, but I kind of wish that it was, especially right now. The Raptors are now just two wins away from an NBA championship.

And their win on Wednesday, it wasn't without controversy. In the fourth quarter, Raptors guard Kyle Lowry dove into the crowd to chase a loose ball. That's when a courtside fan shoved him. Well, it turns out that fan was billionaire minority owner of the Golden State Warriors, Mark Stevens. The NBA and the Warriors have now banned Stevens from NBA games for one year and fined him $500,000. Here's what Lowry had to say about it all on Thursday. Unbelievable. Even worse. Even worse. I mean, you should understand, like, you know, this is what happens. You know, it's basketball. It just sucks, man. It just sucks that you got people like that. A guy like that shouldn't be a part of our league. it shouldn't be a part of our league.

So that's all for today. FrontBurner comes to you from CBC News and CBC Podcasts. Our show is produced by Matt Alma, Chris Berube, Imogen Burchard, Elaine Chao, Shannon Higgins, Ashley Mack, and Helen Surgener. Derek Vanderwyk does our sound design. Our music is by Joseph Shabison of Boombox Sounds. The executive producer of Frontburner is Nick McCabe-Locos. I'm your host, Jamie Poisson.

Thanks so much for listening. See you guys Monday and go Raptors. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog. She names it Gay Girl in Damascus. Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger.

The object of the email was, please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone. Available now.