Front Burner - Women accuse former RCMP doctor of sexual assault

Episode Date: January 22, 2019

Canada's national police force is once again at the centre of disturbing allegations. Multiple women have come forward accusing a former RCMP doctor of sexually assaulting and harassing them decades ago when they were new recruits. CBC investigative reporter Dave Seglins explains what happened and why the RCMP is being accused of covering up sexual assaults from the '80s and '90s.

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about hidden disabilities. Short Sighted, from CBC's Personally, available now. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. He was using his authority for his sexual gratification. I basically ran out of the office knowing that something really wrong happened there. He sexually assaulted me. Canada's National Police Force is once again at the center of disturbing allegations. I want it to be that they are accountable for putting women at harm and being

used as just pieces of property. Multiple women have come forward accusing an RCMP doctor of sexually assaulting and harassing them decades ago when they were new recruits. The RCMP is also being accused of covering up those sexual assaults. Allegations involving harassment, assault, or bullying of women and others inside the RCMP has become a dark pattern for the force. Today I'm talking with my colleague Dave Zeglins. He's one of the reporters who broke this story and can tell us more about what happened and how the RCMP responded. Then, and also now. They want the RCMP to ensure that the kind of reporting and response to women staff members making serious

allegations of sexual assault internally, it never gets swept under the carpet again, which is what they say happened. That's coming up on FrontBurner. Hi, Dave. Hello. Welcome. Thanks so much for joining us. So this is an investigation into decades-old allegations. Can you set this story up for us? Sure. Given all of the recent stories about RCMP apologizing for historical abuses, there was a class action settlement, there was compensation for some of the abuses that have gone on,

gender discrimination, sexual assault. The RCMP delivered a formal apology today and a promise of up to $100 million in compensation. Because of you, your courage, and your refusal to be silenced, the RCMP will never be the same. I got involved in covering some of the fallout from those legal proceedings. And of course, it coincided with the Me Too movement.

Which is really when this bubbled up to the surface. For sure. And it was about a year ago that as this class action suit, the deadline was coming, and women who had worked in the RCMP were getting their paperwork together, that a number of them started talking again about things that had happened 30 years ago. And a group of them went to the Toronto Police Department a year ago. It was January 2018. And they said, you know what, there's something that happened that should have been properly dealt with back in the day. We want you to reopen the investigation. And they gave fresh statements. But they have been sitting on it all of this year. And given the entire backstory

of saying that they went to their RCMP bosses, that they spoke to the Toronto Police 30 years ago, that they went to the College of Physicians and Surgeons, they're back at it. And it's taken a year now. And the Toronto Police have heard from 30 women. 30. Who say they are, you know, they've got similar experiences with this one same doctor. They've decided to come forward and go public because they feel that this is the only way that the police forces are going to take this seriously. I think that we need to complete the circle and finish what we started 30 years ago. This is just sitting there idle, burning, that this has happened to us and still nobody is doing anything about it.

is doing anything about it. I want to get into some of these allegations. What happened 30 some odd years ago? Can you tell me about John McDougall? So John McDougall was a staff doctor for the RCMP. He was based in the Toronto downtown headquarters. It's no longer there, but O Division is what the RCMP calls Ontario. And he was one of the staff doctors who would do all manner of medical exams, but for new recruits coming through and wanting to join the force as a uniform member, as an employee, or as a special constable, or even existing staff who wanted a promotion, he was the go-to person in the Toronto office anyway to get a medical exam. It was mandatory for new recruits and people seeking promotion.

And what is he being accused of doing? So he conducted, of all of the women we've spoken to, we've spoken to, I believe, seven women. They all tell a very similar story, that the medical exam, they get summoned to his office, and it took a lot of time. He spent a lot of time speaking to them, telling them, here's what I'm going to do. And it consisted of a couple of things that they consistently told us. Breast exams involving 20 minutes of massaging of breasts and pinching of nipples, which he explained to them. He called it the tweaking method.

I asked, you know, why are you doing that? And he said that if the nipples go off in one way, then there could be something wrong with the breast. He told me that they have to react directly in order for him to detect if there's problems with things. Yeah. I just want to disappear inside the room there when he's doing that. Have you heard about that being a method anywhere else? No. And frankly, we've asked around and said in the day, was there ever such a thing as a

tweaking method and the medical experts we consulted? No. So it seems strange on its surface. Then there is, according to the women, all manner of, you know, kind of investigating every inch of their body. There was vaginal exams. There was no gloves. There was no hand washing. There was no speculum. There was not a need for it, but it moved forward for probably 20 to 30 seconds. And he said that was it. Some of the women said, look, I've got a family doctor. I've got a gynecologist. I've done this recently.

I've had a pap test recently. I can supply you the information. And he would say, no, no, no, your doctor doesn't see everything. This is their retelling, their account of it. And so he would give an internal exam, which left these women absolutely violated and doubting themselves. He told me that he didn't have to do an internal because I had a current pap smear, but that he needed to take a peek. So he had me spread my legs and he didn't have any gloves in his hands. He was using his authority for his sexual gratification. Why else would he keep telling me or telling us that he had the last say in whether or not we had a job?

You said you've spoken to seven women and they all have similar stories? They do. We've had the three who came forward and have gone public. That is Vicki Gravel, Sylvie Corriveau, and Helen Henderson. They're the ones that have put their public face out there, trusting us to sort of tell their story and examine how the police forces and the College of Physicians and Surgeons dealt with it back in the day. But we went on and through their contacts and through our own sources found additional women who were sent to Dr. McDougall after. Like, keep in mind, these women, the three who've come forward said, look, Helen was already on the force going for promotion.

Two others came in as new recruits. They have their exams, they're all hired. And they get to talking a few weeks after Vicki and Sylvie joined the force. And they say, well, how about that medical exam? Did you have this experience? And they piece together and they go, aha, you had the same thing happen to you as happened to me. And it was at that point, those three said, we're going to do something. And then I felt really empowered. I felt that we're going to be able to get this guy. I've got two other people saying they had similar things happen to them. He won't do this to anybody else. No one else will live like we've had to. And what did they end up doing once they talked amongst themselves and this, they realized that something was amiss here.

So they did a couple of things. They went immediately to their employee assistance person who was an employee on the RCMP, but they filed complaints through them with their bosses. So they told the RCMP, but they're based in Toronto, right? So they also went outside the RCMP and they said, you know what, we're going to go to the Toronto police. So they went to the Toronto police and gave statements. And the Toronto Police opened a criminal investigation into this back in 1989. And they also said, look, we're going to complain to the College of Physicians and Surgeons. That is the regulatory body. Absolutely. And they held out hope and belief that they would be listened to,

and that perhaps there might be a disciplinary hearing or process. But what happened is in very short order, the RCMP brass, we have a paper trail of the paperwork that they got. The RCMP brass stepped in. And instead of the Toronto police coming back to them saying, here's the progress of your complaint in our investigation, it was actually the bosses of the RCMP who informed them. Well, we've talked to the Toronto police,

and this is according to the paperwork of the day. According to the Toronto Police and the Crown, they've consulted and they have no basis for criminal charges, so we won't be dealing with it criminally. We here at the RCMP will look into this internally. By the way, everything that you're describing is according to policy, is what the paperwork said. These exams without gloves or washing and the tweaking method was all according to policy at the time. According to this superintendent's letter, this is just a month after they've gone to Toronto Police, but they say, look, it's all according and within guidelines. However, some of the tests that you describe would be inappropriate. So we're going to talk

to the doctor. And then a month later, two things happen. There's a memo internally that we've obtained where they close the case. They say, well, without more statements from the three women, we're closing this file. We'll consider it closed for now. Well, the women say, wait a minute. Nobody ever talked to us. They maintain to this day that no boss, no supervisor, nobody ever came from the RCMP. that no boss, no supervisor, nobody ever came from the RCMP. They'd gone to the Toronto police at the time. They never heard back from them. And nobody of their bosses came to say, hey, what's going on? Or nobody came to even say, we think you're making a false accusation. Let's get to the bottom of this. Silence, they say. The second thing that happened was that internally in the RCMP, we've obtained paperwork that shows they sent out a memo across the RCMP to all physicians, all staff, doctors, or healthcare professionals saying a couple of things. Number one, this is how you do a proper breast examination. There will be no gynecological internal exams done by our staff. From henceforth, we will be relying on a recruit or employee's family physician's report or personal gynecologist's report.

We won't be doing these. And number three, if there's going to be a breast or vaginal exam of any description being done by an RCMP doctor, it's going to be done in the presence of a witness. So that goes out as a response to the three women stepping forward. However, Dr. McDougall stays on the job. The RCMP kept him in that job for two more years. And so you asked about all the women that we spoke to. Some of them are appearing in our stories quoted and identified. They were people who went to this doctor and had the very same internal exams and or describes the very same alleged sexual assaults afterwards. After these three women went to the RCMP to complain about this doctor. It was devastating. It was almost like it was a second assault. Someone or something that you've trusted for the better part of your life.

the better part of your life. You have basically spent most of your life being proud of being a part of this entity. You find out that they're actually, they helped this man do this to me. What are the women saying to you now about how the RCMP and the Toronto Police handled this at the time? Because I would imagine some of this information is just coming to light for them now. They keep using the word accountability. They want the doctor charged. and we can talk about that. He's in his 80s, and he's not well, and that creates a separate issue. But they want accountability from the RCMP. They want the RCMP to acknowledge what happened to them. They want the RCMP to ensure that the kind of reporting and response to women staff members

making serious allegations of sexual assault internally, it never gets swept under the carpet again, which is what they say happened. I'm hoping that the RCMP hears me and says, you did this to me. You need to be accountable to all of us women. And you did this and we tried to stop it and you allowed it to continue. And I'm pretty sure they knew it was happening all along. And so I want them to be made accountable. And the Toronto Police, they're not particularly thrilled with either.

They went one year ago to Toronto Police expecting something might be done. The three of them gave statements. 30 women have since come forward. It has been a year. They are impatient. Part of the reason they're speaking to the CBC is that they have lost utter faith in any of the authorities that you would think that they quite properly should go to to take any action. You mentioned earlier

that this case at the time in the late 80s, 90s was taken to the College of Physicians, which I suppose is the last accountability body that we're talking about here. What happened with that case? Well, the women became so disenchanted and suspected that their bosses was quashing this. They did turn to the College of Physicians and Surgeons, believing it was their last hope. And it actually went somewhere. They went, they gave statements.

It was investigated. It was referred to the complaints committee. The complaints committee looked at it and they asked Dr. McDougall to respond in writing. And what do we know about how Dr. McDougall responded at the time? He wrote a seven-page defense. Part of it was procedural, but he explained that part of what he was doing in those exams was to teach these young recruits that he was screening. He was using it as an opportunity to teach proper self-breast examination technique. To the women themselves? To the women themselves.

Not sure why that is ever part of the RCMP screening mandate to be teaching these women this. But in his letter, he writes that according to his reading of medical journals, that the profession, generally speaking, doesn't pay enough attention to this. And so he has the time. And so he's taking it upon himself to teach these women this. He also says he's deeply disturbed and concerned that the women were in any way made to feel uncomfortable and have clearly misinterpreted things. But he was silent on the other allegations, the allegations of the internal vaginal exams and some of the other things that the women alleged that he was rubbing their legs and commenting on, you know, did they shave their legs? How did they get so smooth? And another part that's just coming to mind now, a spinal test where he would ask them their gown. He would turn

the gown around so that it's opening in the back. He'd have them bend over and he would ask them their gown. He would turn the gown around so that it's opening in the back. He'd have them bend over and he would get right behind them. And according to the women, he would be right up against them, his pelvis against their naked backside. And he says it's a spinal curvature test and he would rub their backs and he would test every sort of vertebrae in their spine. And they said it was just disgusting in their view because he's so close up against them. And they're wondering, how long is this going to go on? That sounds like an awful experience.

You mentioned earlier that Dr. McDougall is not well right now. What did you mean by that? So he is in his 80s. While he worked at the RCMP until 1992, he kept his license until 2000 working at Ontario Hydro. He's now retired. He lives in a retirement home. We went to try to speak to him. We were referred to a family lawyer.

They are aware that there are complaints against him in a police investigation currently ongoing, but we're told that he is on his deathbed, that Dr. McDougal before Christmas had pneumonia and barely pulled through, and that he hasn't been of sound mind for a couple of years, is what the lawyer said. So we're in a situation where these women want justice, and part of the justice is laying charges, but really they want, they wanted him to know that he'd been caught, or they wanted to confront him. And the reality is, if he isn't of sound mind, then that window is gone. He knows what he did. I think it's still important that the public knows what happened. People that he trusted, people that he confided

in, people he talked about his life and how proud he did his job and how well he did it. There was this other side to him. And I think it's important that it's still revealed. and I think it's important that it's still revealed. Whether he understands what's happening, there's still a really huge part of this story that needs to be revealed and accountability. It's also been interesting as we do this story because I've wrestled as a journalist to say, you know, how big a story do we do?

Do we name this guy? He's on his deathbed. He's not around right now to defend himself. He's not around to defend himself. We've taken every step we could. The lawyer wouldn't comment. His family wouldn't comment. It tells you why it's so important that these things be addressed at the time so people can confront and defend their reputations if they say this didn't happen the way these women say it did. For the women, too, have they talked to you about the impact that this has had carrying it around for so many years, not just the initial alleged assault? And I should note that these allegations have not been proven in court, but not just the initial alleged assault, but also, and I don't want to put words in their mouth, but it also seems like they feel failed by the system around them, the RCMP, the Toronto Police, and the College of Physicians at the time.

How has that weighed on them? The failure of authorities has weighed on them because they don't know who to trust. And really, coming to the media was a last step. It's interesting. You know, back in the day, at the time, one of the women didn't want to really go forward because they didn't feel confident enough. That's Helen Henderson. She now says to us, you know what? No, it is time. And she's the one who

came to CBC first and really drove this. Conversely, Vicki Gravel back in the day was quite emphatic that they were going to do something and get this done. And she is a tough woman. She's very matter of fact. She is common sense and to the point. tough woman. She's very matter of fact. She is common sense and to the point. And when I asked her that very question, you know, what toll do you think those moments have taken on you through 30 years? She broke down. I wasn't going to get teary-eyed about this, but obviously it's done something. I still work for a police department. I am a reputable employee there. I have a family, grown kids.

I function very well, I thought, until they have to bring that sore piece up out of my heart. I didn't think I was a broken person. But I must be a little bit harmed or sensitive, obviously, because there's tears. It opened up old wounds. It sure did. They just feel like this is unfinished business, and it's unfinished business with the doctor,

it's unfinished business with the RCMP, and the Toronto Police, who they would like to hurry up and get to some sort of conclusion. Either announce that there's no basis for charges or lay the charges. And there's also this $135 million lawsuit that's just been launched by one of the women we've spoken about quite a bit in this conversation, Sylvie Correvo. Can you tell me a little bit about that lawsuit? So Sylvie was one of the ones who wanted to go forward back in the day. She still works at the RCMP. She's a senior person there.

So this is a very awkward time for her, not only speaking publicly, but launching this class action lawsuit. Well, why are they launching a class action lawsuit when there's already been a class action lawsuit that was supposed to address all of these historical... That is a question I have had because the RCMP has made a settlement and there's a large sum of money, $100 million, I believe, for women who have suffered abuse or harassment or bullying during their time working for the RCMP. So is this a separate lawsuit? It is separate. And there's a reason.

Because these women have been shut out of that lawsuit. Why? They've been able to piece together that Helen, who was going for promotion, already hired at the RCMP, filed her paperwork. She did get a settlement. already hired at the RCMP, filed her paperwork, she did get a settlement. Vicky and Sylvie, who were outsiders, were recruits, had the medical exam a week before they were formally hired on. Because they weren't yet employees, they are not eligible for compensation under the existing class action lawsuit. So this one going forward is, okay, for all of these recruits, either people who didn't even get a job or people who weren't in the RCMP prior and weren't officially on the

payroll, this is for them. And what's more is that this is not a lawsuit against a particular doctor. This is a lawsuit against the federal government as the employer through the RCMP saying, there were doctors, not just John McDougall that we've heard about, but we know that there's a Halifax doctor who's under investigation. He was an RCMP doctor. 140 men and women have come forward about the way he was treating people in these kinds of exams. The claims date back over 20 years with alleged victims now stationed right across this country. This lawsuit is meant to catch anybody and any doctor that may have abused their power and position while in the employ of the RCMP to help compensate the victims who aren't

compensated through any other lawsuit. Has the RCMP said anything about this particular case today? How they handled it in the past, for example? They won't talk about it, is the short answer. They know that the Toronto Police are looking into this, so they do not want to disturb the current criminal investigation. They have issued a statement saying that their primary concern is the health and well-being of their employees, and they are aware of this. They will focus and protect their employees at the moment. I did want to talk about one more thing with you.

This lawsuit and this story is happening in an even larger context. The federal government is setting up a civilian committee to strengthen oversight of the RCMP police force to enhance accountability. Part of the reason why they're doing this is to strengthen independent adjudication of sexual assault and harassment complaints. As we've talked about, the RCMP has been dogged by these complaints for years. There can be no room and no tolerance for workplace harassment, bullying or sexual misconduct or misconduct of any kind. Are these changes enough for the women that you spoke with?

I'm not allowed to have an opinion as a journalist, but I've been covering justice and policing issues for a long time. And I'm going to wager an opinion and say not likely. I don't think that the oversight body is the single bullet that is going to fix the RCMP. But it's sure a step ahead of where it was before. Dave, thank you so much for coming by today and having this discussion. We really appreciate it. I'm pleased to. Thank you. Thank you.

That civilian oversight of the RCMP Dave and I were talking about? Well, the RCMP Commissioner and I were talking about? Well, the RCMP Commissioner Brenda Luckey addressed this last week. She also touched on her goals to ensure that employees who come forward with harassment or other allegations feel supported. It's really important that our process is transparent and fearless so that people can feel safe, the victims can feel safe to come forward in a process where they won't be re-victimized. That's all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog.

She names it Gay Girl in Damascus. Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger. The object of the email was, please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone. Available now.