Front Burner - World Cup 101: The stars, underdogs and favourites

Episode Date: November 18, 2022

After nearly three decades of trying, Canada qualified for the 1986 World Cup in Mexico and proceeded to not score a goal. But Canada could write a new chapter in its soccer history, starting Sunday, when the Qatar World Cup kicks off. We've covered the controversy surrounding soccer's biggest tournament — from human rights abuses to allegations of bribery, and corruption at FIFA. Today, we're focusing on the tournament itself. Roger Bennett is back to give us a primer on the favourites, the underdogs and some of the big storylines expected to unfold on the pitch in Qatar. He's the founder of the Men in Blazers Media network, co-host of the Men in Blazers podcast and co-author of the newly published book Gods of Soccer.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. A smashing breakthrough today for Canada's soccer team. Hi, I'm Ali Janes, in for Jamie Poisson. Canada has been trying to get into the World Cup soccer championships, and today it finally happened.

Hopes were very high in 1985 when Canada qualified for the World Cup for the first time. Canada only needed to tie the game to get a berth in the World Cup. Still, Canada was going for a win, the game to get a berth in the World Cup. Still, Canada was going for a win, 61 minutes into the game and another goal by Igor Vrablet. The score then was 2-1. So after 28 years, Canadians finally have a crack at the World Cup in Mexico next June, and Canadian soccer is finally on the map. They were underdogs, and a song was commissioned to rally fans. We did not win a single game in the Mexico World Cup.

In fact, we didn't even score a single goal. But Canada could write a new chapter in our soccer history starting this Sunday. That's when the Qatar World Cup kicks off. And if you haven't been paying much attention to soccer, it's all good. We've got you. Today, we're talking World Cup 101, the favorites, the underdogs, and what not to miss. Roger Bennett is back to give us a primer. He co-hosts the podcasts Men in Blazers and World Corrupt. And he also co-wrote the book Gods of Soccer.

And if you missed it, Jamie spoke with Roger last week for an episode about the controversy and the politics around Qatar's World Cup. So you should definitely go back and listen and you can find that in our feed. Hi, Raj. Thanks so, so, so much for coming back. We are thrilled to have you. Ali, it is a joy to be with you at this incredible time for Canadian football. Well, yeah, and I want to get all into that in just a few minutes. I mean, firstly, you know, as a soccer superfan who's been through this many times before,

could you just describe what it feels like when a World Cup is at its best like what what is it like for you to watch the action oh ali i won't be clear as i answer the question that i hope this world cup is at its best the qatar issue just the craven crazy almost surreal nation of jamming this tournament into that place which we talked about on our last episode. It can't be normalized, and it does need to be mentioned as a caveat before I answer that. But the World Cup is the spine to my life and to millions of human beings around the world. It's like a Marvel action movie, which is acted out live with the players doing all their own stunts coming from all over the world and the joy of the world cup is that when two teams take the field their nation's histories their nation's

cultures their nation's politics take the field alongside them so you're essentially seeing the whole of human nature a mirror lifted up to it and reflected back to you so it's a event that is lived both on the sporting field and off it at all time. And never more than this one, we'll be watching it in that kind of split screen of events, footballing and events geopolitical colliding together. So, I mean, we wanted to do a primer today because, you know, obviously Canada has not traditionally been known for its soccer. But now we've got this team in the World Cup

and we're also set to co-host the Cup in 2026. So if there was ever a time to jump on the bandwagon here, it is now. So for World Cup first-timers, can you just briefly take us through the basics? How does the tournament work? It's 64 games compressed into 29 days in which 32 teams from across the world and it really is now from across the entire world will collide and the opening round the teams are organized into groups of four and they will play

each other and then the top two teams from each group will move forward into one game knockout play a round of 16 which is normally where the united states says goodbye then the quarterfinal the semi-final by the time we get to the final frankly we're also shattered and exhausted um and also incredibly sad even before it kicks off that the whole thing is almost over but that's it and that the net effect has been compared to a global eclipse that strikes the entire planet instantaneously for an entire month. Wow that's that's an incredible image so so I mean what what should we be strapping ourselves in for with this World Cup in particular? Well, there's so many delirious storylines.

Argentina, Lionel Messi's fifth, and he said final World Cup. Then I'm sure we'll talk about Brazil coming in as favorites. Brazil are to the sport of soccer what Canada is to hockey. And of course, what Canada is to hockey, and of course, Canada. So let's talk more about Canada now. I mean, this is obviously an underdog team but what do you like so much about them I love everything about them I really do I admire so much about how this team has been put together what they have achieved football is at its best it's not like the NBA where you can have two or three great players and just biblically smite all comers the game of football is a game of team play and international squads they are

almost like all-star squads they're kind of flung together they're really ephemeral and so the teams that fare well in this crazy crucible of pressure that is a world cup are the ones that have a true collective idea of the football they want to play and a true chemistry amongst the footballers and I look at the Canadian team you have a coach an incredible human being who I hope more and more people in Canada if your listeners are like I don't know this man John Herdman is his name I hope you do come to marvel at him he's gone on this incredible journey to become a World Cup coach where he went off to New Zealand to begin with and then coached the Canadian women's team to glory. And he took over your national team squad.

He's a brilliant man. But more than that, he's a brilliant leader of human beings and has really infused these individuals into a true collective fist. And the individual players, the Canadian national team, just the backstories of your young stars. Alphonso Davies, who I hope is faintly audible all over Canada. His story, I'm imagining at this

point, is fairly well known in Canada. Emerged from a refugee camp origin story, arrived in Canada, moved to Edmonton I believe. I mean, it's not a place, Edmonton. I'll be candid, I hope I get to come back onto the CBC in 20 years time and declare that many, many elite footballers have emerged onto the world stage from Edmonton. Vancouver briefly, then plucked by German powers by Munich, where he's defined himself as the greatest player in his position with pace and verb and tactical intelligence. It's a story that,

if it took place in Greek times, it would be epic poems written about this human being, as frankly they deserve to be today. He is not alone. And essentially what you have is a diverse, And essentially what you have is a diverse, joyous, deeply intelligent collective who show from the outside a face of Canada that seems just one you can only marvel at. Godspeed, the joy of Canada, the kings of our region. Our region's called CONCACAF, which sounds like you're clearing your throat. They are the kings of CONCACAF. May you score a bloody goal this time. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. I hope so, too. We may not win of Concacaf. May you score a bloody goal this time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I hope so too. We may not win the cup this year. Let's be realistic about that. But even if we don't, I mean, who knows? Who knows? But even if we don't, what would you see as a win for this Canadian team this year?

Number one, you've already won to me. On the the men's and women's side women winning a gold medal at the last olympics julia grosso from vancouver to win it for canada canada came canada conquered canada gold at tokyo. What an achievement. What a team. What a persevering group of human beings. Your men playing this dizzying football. I believe just scoring goals, diving headfirst into snowbanks. And that's one thing I do worry for your team,

that there won't be too many snowbanks for them to dive into. Not very many in Qatar. Yeah, when they score goals in Qatar. But they've already won by qualifying. The confidence, the experience, the journey together for this fairly young side in most parts. 2026, when football is coming home to Canada and the United States and Mexico,

this team will be battle-hardened. You are in a very tough group. Belgium are stocked with globally revered talent. Croatia were finalists at the last World Cup, and though aging, somehow Tom Brady to wonder time and time again. Morocco were never to be underestimated. But I look at this team, and I look at John Herman,

and I look at the possibility. And the World Cup, more than than anything is its own ecosystem it's got its its own magic and a team with the right idea of football and that right chemistry can make noise and go deep so for now before a ball has been kicked all i'd say is believe savor every second and make great memories, Canada. You know, we're going up against some giants in world football here and it's just not a place Canada's been for a long time. He's going to take it himself!

Sam Alaguri! It'll land! It's Canada being back on the biggest stage in world football, world sport. Another famous victory and another big step forward in the quest for Qatar. My name is Alphonso Davies and my dream is to someday compete in the World Cup, maybe even in my hometown of Edmonton. maybe even in my hometown of Edmonton. Getting out of the group stage,

you know, beating one of the biggest teams, I mean, these are all sort of pioneering moments. So success will be to have at least one of them and then push to as many as we can capture in this moment. From obscurity to unforgettable, the Kings of the North, they've done it! Canada is going to the World Cup! In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization,

empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. investment and industry connections. That's not a typo. 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. So why don't we talk about some of the favorites now? Brazil, as you mentioned earlier, they're ranked as, you know, best team in the world, but they somehow haven't won a World Cup in two decades. So what's going on? What's getting in their way? Oh, 2002 was the last time actually any non-European team won the World Cup.

As the full time whistle goes and Brazil are champions of the world once more. goes and Brazil are champions of the world once more a record extending fifth title comes at the expense of Germany who suffered defeat in the final for the fourth time it's been true European hegemony and this Brazil team are coming in as favorites which they have done before remember the last time that they were favorites for a world cup it was when the tournament was actually held in brazil 2014 and they dreamed that the title was theirs by divine right they've won the world cup more than any other team you know their their golden jerseys really came to the world's consciousness with pele at a time when color television started to popularize itself around the world and their shirts seemed to crackle with extra sparkle in that early Technicolour.

So that 2014 World Cup, it ended. I was in Rio broadcasting for ESPN then. I was in a green room packed with Brazilian footballing royalty who came for a wedding. They thought their team were going to make the final and instead they were destroyed and humiliated by Germany. Now it's the humbling of a giant. World Cup host Brazil tonight

suffered one of the most humiliating defeats in World Cup history, crashing out of the semi-final by seven goals to one. What's worse, in front of their own fans. We had a German international called Michael Ballack watching alongside of us

and with every goal he just kept shouting this is too easy i mean like an arnold schwarzenegger style voice and it was like turning up at a national funeral so the stakes are very high a manager of theirs perera once said that there's 250 million people in brazil and each one of them thinks they know more about football than the national team manager and they are coming in as favorites and they only have one success which is to win it just coming close for the Brazilian nation is abject woeful national humiliation so the stakes for Brazil more than any other country are always higher than everybody else. Okay so and their star is Neymar and I mean if people don't know him as a soccer star, they might know him from this meme that happened last World Cup where he kind of became famous for like, rolling on the ground super dramatically after fouls. But I mean, also, like within Brazil, you know, he's he's been this huge supporter of the now former president, Jair Bolsonaro. And in Bolsonaro's time as president, the Brazilian jersey actually became kind of a symbol of the far right. I mean, now that Lula's

in power, there's been this shift. I mean, what do you think a win would mean for that country now? That is such a good question. And Ne Neymar I always thought he got such a bad rap for his preponderance of just falling down within molecules touching distance of another human being. I like to think he just feels pain and gravity far more than mere mortals. He's like a man-should-comet hero come alive a truly preternaturally gifted human being who likes the party a little bit more than he likes the football. And that is often a Brazilian route to glory and wonder and self-destruction. He did support Bolsonaro. Also conveniently, I believe, had tax charges dropped against him at the same time, recorded series of of joyful uh borsari is a

great human being videos on the eve of that election as it should be said did so many of the elite footballers it's a very dark and complicated thing which is why when fifa's president johnny infantino begs us all ahead of the world cup to, stick to the football. Football should not be enmeshed in politics. It is so enmeshed in politics. It is impossible to sever the two. And Bolsonaro did embrace almost, and it makes me sick to say this, the MAGA hat of Brazil became the golden jersey of the Brazilian football team. It did become appropriated as a symbol of the Brazilian right

to the extent that never mind what will a win do I it's fascinating to see how the nation receives the team as they run out in in what was still seen as a deeply political symbol even in defeat so there's obviously a national trauma there's still a national divide Lula is a football obsessive in such a wonderful way and how he navigates brazil's ultimate failure or brazil's ultimate success and wraps that into his own political narrative will be a storyline to watch So let's go on to another one of the major teams here who you've already mentioned, Argentina. I mean, they're coming off a 35-game winning streak.

And as you noted, their captain and star player is Lionel Messi. I mean, he's played in more World Cup games than any other active player. But I was actually pretty surprised to learn that he's never won the Cup. So tell me about the significance of Qatar for him. Oh, Lionel Messi. What a human being who has played his entire career in a goat feud with Cristiano Ronaldo. And the two human beings could not be more opposite. And Ronaldo almost seems to want to score goals

just as a means to an end. And that end is to rip off his shirt and show the world his eight-pack abs. Lionel Messi, he's tiny. They used to call him the At atomic flea was one of his early nicknames this kid who left argentina at a very early age in his early teens when most kids would be having a bar mitzvah he was whisked off to barcelona where they actually put him on hormone growth treatment um and all legal all wonderful wonderful, all medically sound, I've been very assured.

But it allowed him to, I mean, what is he now, like five foot six, five foot seven? And it shows you the joy of football for me is all shapes and sizes can dominate. And to watch him, this gentleman's mastery has been total. He's won everything at the club level, everything, so many times. But when he's pulled on the Argentinian jersey, he's almost buckled under the weight of it.

The cruiser was almost as if it's cut of chain mail. The pressure, the weight of expectation. And for many years, the Argentinians hated him. They thought he only tried for Barcelona. They called him El Catalan to show that he didn't really care about his nation. And he cared. He cared. They were always politically charged teams. It always complicated there would be arguments he would walk off defeated always in tears i looking at him i always thought of prince's song this is what it sounds like when

doves cry um and he's just won his first major tournament with argentina the the copa the south american championship but the run is over now. Argentina are champions of South America. Argentina crowd around Lionel Messi. The world's greatest player finally has an international trophy. There can be no more arguments. And at age 35, he is now playing in Paris, playing some of the most delirious football

of his career again, joyously. And this whole Argentina team is playing collective football for the first time in a long time. And many people believe this could be, and this is to be honest, is the storyline that's probably most ecstatic going into this. This could be the tournament for Lionel Messi. Greatness is often discussed.

How do you become the greatest of all time? Pele won the World Cup numerous times. Maradona lifted a whole team up on his back to win in 1986. Lionel Messi never won the World Cup. To me, to be candid, he is the greatest player of all time. But this, if he wins the World Cup of Argentina, will make that debate inarguable. Argentina will make that debate inarguable.

You mentioned Cristiano Ronaldo, and this is the captain of Team Portugal, and like Messi, if I'm understanding correctly, this is looking like it could be his last World Cup. But he's going into the tournament after this bombshell interview with Piers Morgan where like he criticized another team that he plays for Manchester United he criticized some of his former teammates I mean what what effect do you think that that interview has had or could have on his reputation oh Cristiano Ronaldo also an undoubted one of the greatest players of all

time if you don't know who he is just think of what a bottle of draco noir would look like like if it turned into a human being and he was driven to greatness by a focus an obsessive focus obsessive search for perfection and self-perfection and that i mean he also has i think the world's most instagram followers something like 494 million people so let's be fair to him he's not really a human being it's really a global brand billboard at this point so one cannot imagine what he is experiencing as he enters decline at age uh 35 his is his footballing abilities which used to be dominant in every way. He could hurt opponents in his prime from long range with pace, with his head.

He could do it all, this gentleman. And he has gone into decline. He's still the greatest global brand, but on the field, he's really a locker room killer and did. I mean, I don't know how well-known Piers Morgan is in Canada. I think pretty well-known. But if you do know, you know,

if you're going on the Piers Morgan show, number one in life, as a rule, that is your first big mistake. And then his second big mistake was to open his mouth and he just pointed his finger

at everybody in world football. Everything was their fault. Nothing was his fault. They don't care. I don't mean only a few in Manchester United, but all the teams, all leagues in the world, the youngers, they are not the same of my generation.

They're not going to have longevity careers, in my opinion. It's impossible. His teammates in Portugal are reportedly furious because they dream of a World Cup. They dream of playing. And all they're being asked now they've arrived at the World Cup is,

what do you think about Ronaldo? What do you think about the Piers Morgan interview? And they, many of whom are obviously come through with him, love him, they are seething. I feel for them. I do in every regard. And the interview and the way he's carried himself is really legacy tainting.

But how you see it when you actually watch it, it's the same traits that propelled him to greatness, a vanity, a selfishness, a self-focus. He's not changed in any way, shape or form. Those are still the lead dominant traits which are propelling him. But in decline, this is just a gentleman who clearly does not realise

that he has won everything in football, but father time is undefeated. Let's talk now about the defending champion in this cup team france so they won in 2018 what shape is that team in this year they are phenomenal they are stacked they probably have uh the european teams the deepest squad in the um and and the most feared set of superstar attacking players in in a gentleman called kare Benzema, Karim the Dream, and Kylian Mbappe, the young Parisian who used the last World Cup as the stage to really announce himself to the world as the gentleman at the peak of football's Mount Olympus.

But to be a defending champion is just something that has not occurred in the World Cup since 1962. It's so bloody hard. And this French team and its history, obviously France has singularity and everything. crashing burning humiliating themselves uh in the most self-soiling fashion with a squad just turning on each other and just immersing themselves in petulant off-field antics so i'd say we are due for that but at a certain stage you have to have self-knowledge they the footballers have to be aware of that pattern so i mean final question who's gonna win raj like who are you putting your money on oh god i'd love i would love i would love to watch lionel messi on the winner's stand

taking that trophy just that image of that little bloke who has brought so much joy to so many millions of people on so many countless occasions just making the transcendent truly normative for him to walk up and look at that trophy, that golden trophy that looks like somebody has stuck their arm into a pot of gold paint while holding a grapefruit in the end of their hand. Seeing Lionel Messi stare at that trophy while the old fireworks go off, that would be, that would be humanly wonderful.

That's a great place to land. Thank you so much for coming back. It was just such a thrill to talk to you. And I'll have to see how your bets pan out. Don't follow any of my betting suggestions, but just make great memories. A World Cup is once every four years. Save it every second, make great memories, and enjoy it, once every four years. Save it every second.

Make great memories and enjoy it, Canada. Thanks, Ellie. Thank you so much. All right, that is all for today. Before we go, just a reminder that our episode Qatar and a World Cup Controversy covers some of the politics around this year's tournament. We also interviewed Roger for that episode, and you can find it in our feed. Frontburner was produced this week by Shannon Higgins, Imogen Burchard, Lauren Donnelly, Rafferty Baker, Derek Vanderwyk, and me. Our sound design was by Matt Cameron and Sam McNulty.

Our music is by Joseph Shabison. Our executive producer is Nick McCabe-Locos. And I'm Allie Janes, in for Jamie Poisson. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.