Front Burner - Years after burning down, why hasn’t Lytton rebuilt?

Episode Date: July 2, 2024

A little over three years ago, a roaring, rapidly spreading wildfire burned through Lytton, a B.C. town of around 200 residents. It essentially burned to the ground. And even though at least $239 million dollars have been promised or poured into the recovery – rebuilding has been slow, and people are frustrated.CBC Vancouver reporter Yvette Brend just returned from Lytton. She tells us about the town’s delayed recovery, and how it might be a cautionary tale of climate disaster recovery.For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/frontburner/transcripts

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. A little over three years ago now, Lytton, B.C. was declared the hottest place in Canada. One of the hottest places in the world, actually. There was a brutal heat wave across the province at the time,

and for the people in Lytton, that heat turned into an inferno. And what happened that day is still fresh in the minds of so many residents. The whole back of this was snapping on fire. Three big ponderosas, top to bottom, they've been cut down now top to bottom all three on fire and everything every blade of grass was snapping so like there was this black monster and embers coming our way and what i could see was um i could i'm sure i could i'm sure there were buildings on fire with the black smoke i saw fire running up the seabed. Lytton essentially burned to the ground. And even though over $200 million have been promised or poured into the recovery,

rebuilding has been really slow and people are very frustrated. My colleague, CBC Vancouver reporter Yvette Brend, has been looking into why that is and how Lytton might be a cautionary tale of climate disaster recovery. Yvette, it is so great to have you on the show. Thanks so much for being here. Before we get into what Lytton looks like now, can you tell me a bit about what the town was like before the fire? Sure. Well, you know, Lytton is on that Highway 1 stretch as you head up toward Prince George. And when you drive in, you can't help but notice that it's kind of outlined by the Fraser River and then defined on the other side by rail lines.

You know, this was 200 or so people live here, lived here. It was a tiny place with a couple of hotels and a Chinese restaurant and a market they called, named after the owner of the restaurant. And even though it was so small, it was sort of a hub because it's at the confluence of the Thompson and the Fraser. It's always sort of been the place where people gather, you know, hundreds of years ago to get salmon. But it's a service center for something like 2,000, 3,000 people that live around in pockets in remote rural pockets around and reserve land all around. So Lytton has always been a place of meeting and really an interesting little town. And it's quite beautiful too, right? Like the scenery.

It is stunning. It's like you're driving into a Western set and you can understand why people film stuff there. It's just a totally different climate than, you know, even half an hour down the road, you start to see tumbleweeds and those sage colors and that light, you know, that almost northern light. So you just got back from there. Just tell me what it looks like today. What do you see when you drive into that village that you just described? Well, it's kind of jarring, right? Because you come around that corner and first off you see this one red and white house and a couple on the other side building up. But if you go any further than that, it is just empty lots, right? I mean, this is maybe seven city blocks by Vancouver or Toronto standards, but it's just a blank,

barren landscape. And what really strikes you as soon as you get out of a vehicle is all the marmots. It has no people, but it's populated with marmots. And I asked around and people said it's because the dogs, the town dogs are all gone. Right. So the marmots have exploded. So it's it's kind of surreal. There's nothing there. And the people who are still displaced. Tell me more about what that's been like for them. Well, you know, we spoke to Mayor Denise O'Connor and she described Lytton for somebody that's never been to somewhere this small. This is a place where everybody knows everybody else, right?

Like it's when you're living in a town that's 200 strong, and that's just the little town, and then right adjacent, you just drive down Main Street and you get into Reserve Land, there's about 800 or 900 people on the Lytton First Nation that live there. People all know each other. So when people were ripped out of their homes, fled, you know, we talked to a couple that literally had to run from their porch. We took off on a narrow road, trying to go down, people going up the hill. We met them and I fell into the ditch with my little car. Oh no. But I just kept going and I hit another rock. They ended up, many of them displaced, in hotels or with family.

They ended up, many of them displaced, in hotels or with family. It was pretty hard being out there in the motels. And I say it was pretty hard because our community is a collective community. And we're always in that orientation of sitting with family. And when that fire happened, we were scattered all over. There was people in camels. You know, for a full year before they even got a chance to come back into trailers, the First Nation built about 36 trailers where about 50 people are back on Lytton First Nation land.

And a lot of people in the town have never been able to come back. I mean, they've remained outside of the town with family and some just aren't going to come back. Because, you know, Lytton was also a place where there were a lot of seniors. Some have passed away. They're gone. They will never go home. Others have decided, I don't want to wait any longer. It's been three years.

And others have, you know, the trauma of having lived there during the fire. Yeah. Yeah. The people who are living there in trailers, I mean, what is their life like, you know, if so much of the community isn't there, right? Yeah. And it's, you know, it's been sort of a form of camping. I mean, there is, you know, a main little store in town now. It's pretty tiny. And then the First Nation has built a store for some groceries. But it means driving away an hour to Lillooet or Ashcroft for a big grocery run. It's pretty limited what's around. You know, you'd have to go up to Spences Bridge to go to our restaurant. You know, we took the little short ferry ride across the Fraser at one point, which is fascinating. You can fit two cars on this little ferry and it comes every once in a while and it shuts down for lunch. And across the Fraser, there's about 100 people living on that hillside. And you got to imagine this is all in a valley and it's framed by these,

they're not mountains, but hills and covered with sage. And we met with Ken Pite. He is camping in his trailer part of the year, and part of the year he surfs. He's a retired shop teacher, philosopher, surfer. But he's had this great vantage point, right? Watching across the river as Lytton struggles to rebuild and how slow that process has been, camping in this little orchard on a little square of cement that his friend lets him borrow. When we're confronted with disasters, situations like that, life becomes really real. You know, there's that sense of reality.

And, you know, there's a few things, you know, I realized my own shortcomings. You know, I didn't have any firefighting equipment. I didn't have any, you know, experience really. And, you know, not the stamina to be able to do anything. So there was a sense of disappointment in that respect. But, you know, and then it was like time to get out. organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years. I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household

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Because I remember, for one, all the politicians who rolled through Lytton promising to rebuild, right? Like, how is it possible that we're here three years on? We had a lot of promises made, right? And a lot of hope floated. When the smoke clears in Lytton, of course, the province will be there to rebuild.

I made that commitment to the mayor today, and I make that commitment to those who are in emergency centres around the region today. We are here as a federal government, as partners, for whatever support people need. We're standing with the people of Lytton to rebuild, and we're continuing to work with the province to keep all British

Columbians safe. There was even an ad at one point, one company from Calgary came in and made this ad, this very uplifting ad to Walking on Sunshine, and you see these kids, school's going to reopen. I'm walking on sunshine. And there's, you know, seedlings being planted, and the community got frustrated with that ad because, you know, that's not what the experience has been. When you talk to people from the leaders, you know, the mayor, the First Nations leaders and just people that are experiencing it, a lot of money was spent cleaning up debris.

You know, after that fire turned the whole town to ash, 100 buildings into the soil, all that had to be hauled away, remediated. town to ash, 100 buildings into the soil. All that had to be hauled away, remediated. And then there was all sorts of environmental consulting about what to do next. And then because that land had been stripped away, that soil, of course, then that revealed some of the history that's been obscured underneath and some artifacts began to emerge. So that kicked in provincial archaeological rules. You know, as a village, we absolutely appreciate and understand the historical, the heritage, the archaeology resource that's here in the village.

But because it is now an issue, there are costs that are put onto the people rebuilding that were never there before. And so they're quite astronomical costs. So, you know, it's been a complex situation and people that are sitting on provincial land need permits to rebuild. They also then need to find a contractor that can build to the new provincial building standards. And those are in high demand. There's been a lot of fires in BC. So if they're getting paid more over a little shoe swap, they go there. Or if the money's coming through faster.

So a lot of complex confluence of events happening to make this a very delayed rebuild. build. Look, like, I don't know a lot about, you know, debris clearing and remediation and archaeological work, but is it normal that it would take this long for that kind of stuff to happen? Like, are people that you're talking to saying that this is, you know, par for the course? Well, people that I was talking to say they hope that other small communities look at what happened at Lytton. I think there are some unusual things about Lytton, its history. It is one of the longest inhabited settlements in North America, right, which makes it quite unique. But there's also some stuff going on there that people want questioned for, you know, for others going forward that have disasters like this. I mean,

the reserve land and provincial, the provincial rules don't apply the same to that. Many people didn't have insurance, so they have to wait on the actions of First Nations leaders who got millions from the federal ministries to rebuild, and that money took a long time to come through. Some of that money hasn't come through. And then the actual people building on provincial land have all this permitting. I spoke to Judith Urquhart, who came to Lytton in

the 1970s. She's an educator, taught children her whole life. And, you know, hers was one of the first houses you see rebuilding. I think it'll be like home number two that'll be finished because of all of this happening, only five homes are near completion and only 15 building permits are approved up to this point right we were fortunate that we didn't have any artifacts found on our property because as you can see we we were a hillside and then that hillside got filled in with the railway, so we're mostly fill here. She's on a slope, and the train runs right behind her. And she decided just not to go for a basement, because then she didn't have to touch the land, which was all full of fill anyway, where she is. So she got her permit approved faster than most, and will be rebuilding.

And she's hoping that it, you know, it offers people a bit of hope that it can happen. But she does describe an incredibly frustrating couple of years to try to get that done at a lot of cost. I think I was angry for a year because you couldn't figure it out. You couldn't get the answers. And we had to work through a lot of issues. So we learned a lot from working with the municipality, from how does the province work, how does the federal government work. Do we have a sense of how much money has been poured into the community so far? Yeah, Jamie, I found this fascinating.

I spent three weeks trying to get out of the ministries exactly how much money has been either committed to or flowed through Lytton. I've gotten it up to a total of $239 million, and that's like with the $43 million from the province and the rest from different federal ministries for housing and different parts of rebuilding. But I really don't think I've tallied all of it. The CB rail also gave a million dollars

to help rebuild. There's been money coming from other sources. So you're talking an astronomical amount of money that's flowed or is going to flow into the community. You know, people will tell you it's not really the lack of money, it's other issues. And, you know, and a lot of people that are trying to build on provincial land are also frustrated because when they do go to build, they're given these assessments. You know, you can't put that pole into that ground. If you touch that ground, you have to go through our archaeology company, which will monitor or do the archaeological work, and that will cost you, and I'm not kidding you, between $2,000 or $3,000 and $80,000, one man told me he was assessed for his property.

They have to pay for the archaeological work, the owners. Yes. If you have a property on provincial land, so non-reserve land, you are handed this assessment by a company that's linked to the tribal council, the NTTC, and that can be thousands and thousands of dollars. And there's a lot of pushback around that, as you can imagine. The village has been held back, and they wanted to blame somebody for the delay. So, you know, I think I sort of sensed that they were blaming the First Nations that we had asked for this heritage assessment

that included archaeology. But it's a government program. As the mayor says, people just don't have, you know, extra cash in their bank after losing their home and sitting in a hotel for three years. To me, personally, it's not about the money or the archaeology that's happening. It's about who's paying for it. I'm so fascinated by the archaeological work. I'm so fascinated by the archaeological work. Just can you tell me a little bit more about what's been going on there and then more about how it's been playing out in the community?

What's happened basically is in the 1850s, gold miners built over the Inklaka'kma First Nation village and there were burial grounds under there. And we spoke to John Hogan, historian for the Lytton First Nation. Well, right from the start, we knew from some of the early maps that there were buildings that were constructed on burial grounds. And so we knew that we were walking on the bones of our ancestors for the most part. Lytton is a storied place. And so the site's protected under BC's Heritage Conservation Act because of the treasures and the artifacts and the history that's hidden. Now that you've torn that layer of topsoil away that was all burned.

A year ago, the AEW, the archaeological company linked to the Tribal Council, claimed they found a 7,000-year-old spear tip. to the Tribal Council claim they found a 7,000-year-old spear tip. And Bowen Maugh, BC's Minister of Emergency and Management Climate Change Readiness, has said that thousands of artifacts have emerged. People would really like to see those and bit more about how the government has responded to all of this. Well, obviously, you know, there's been a lot of money pouring in and a lot of help offered in terms of cash. pouring in on a lot of help offered in terms of cash, I think that the mayor sort of summed up saying if she were to say anything to another small community facing this,

they needed more just support, just organizational making decisions, you know, sort of an overarching head to come in and explain how to deal with such a massive disaster. I mean, you understand, they lost their RCMP station, their town hall, all of their corporate records. Everything was gone, right? So you're starting from absolute scratch and you're a mayor of like a 200-person town who's never faced anything like this before. The model of recovery that our province has is community-led recovery.

recovery that our province has is community-led recovery and that might work in a community where not absolutely everything has burnt down. But I really think you know that a small community in particular does not have the capacity to make those decisions, to find the answers to information they need you know in a disaster where absolutely everything is destroyed. There's been a lot of sort of promises and cash flow for emergency housing, but not a lot of leadership, it just seems like. Right, just to help people navigate a process that seems to have so many different moving parts and layers to it. On the money issue, I understand that the Auditor General is actually investigating,

like, basically where all this money went. That's right. In May, there was an announcement that there is an official investigation going on into how recovery money has been spent there and the lack of transparency around that. And we're expecting a report out of that. You've talked throughout this conversation about how what happened in Lytton and what's happening in Lytton really represents what could happen to so many smaller communities in Canada and in the face of devastating wildfires and other climate disasters. And, you know, what lessons did they see as they continue to navigate this rebuild? I guess the people who have decided to stay.

Absolutely. I guess the people who have decided to stay. Absolutely. I mean, Ken Pite, the gentleman I told you about on the other side of the river, said that the money went kind of through the town. It didn't end up in the town. It went through the town. He wanted to see more of it land in town and become and rebuild and become buildings. And he hopes that other communities learn from that. I think already, I think there's little municipalities that are making darn sure that what happened immediately after the disaster here doesn't happen when the disaster hits their town. I spoke to the Lytton First Nation chief, Chief Nakaya Hanna, and he talked about how there are predatory companies that come in and, you know, sort of disaster capitalists that come in and make money off disasters. And that, you know, he's worked in that industry and he knows how it works, but a lot of people are naive to it and they'll sign up for things, they'll put down cash. You know, there's better protections that need to be put in place.

There's better streamlining that needs to be put in place for permitting and understanding what's going to happen. When you're left in a situation where you've only got one option, then you're almost forced to take it. So there's a monopoly right now on rebuilding and linting. There was just another fire over there, so we can either come and help you for this price, or we can go help them. Do you want our help? So you're stuck going, okay, well, I better take them, otherwise I'm going to be delayed. And, you know, Ken Pied had also said that if the archaeological

finds that are happening in Lytton are that important, he feels the province should step in and pay for them, that that shouldn't be shouldered on individuals that have already lost so much. Yvette, thank you so much for this. This was an incredibly interesting conversation, as I mentioned to you before we started recording, something that I didn't know very much about at all. And it's really quite shocking to hear a lot of this. So thank you so much for coming on. It's been an absolute pleasure and really nice to meet you, Jamie.

All right, that is all for today. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for listening. Talk to you tomorrow. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.