Front Burner - Young Thug and lyrics on trial

Episode Date: June 6, 2022

Atlanta rappers Young Thug and Gunna are among 28 people that a U.S. grand jury indictment accuses of being part of a criminal street gang. The alleged members of the Young Slime Life gang are charged under Georgia's racketeering law known as RICO, which is similar to federal laws introduced in the 1970s to combat the mafia. The 56-count indictment includes allegations of murder and attempted armed robbery. Some of the evidence of gang activity cited by prosecutors are lyrics from artists like Young Thug. Today, journalist and commentator Jacques Morel discusses why prosecutors are bringing lyrics into courtrooms, and why the practice seems to target Black men and hip hop artists.

In the Dragon's Den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. This is a CBC Podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie Poisson. You're hearing Just How It Is by influential Atlanta rapper Young Thug, a.k.a. Jeffrey Williams. In the chorus he raps,

I escaped every one of the licks, cause I was supposed to be rich. I don't care nothing about no cop. I'm telling you just how it is. These lyrics, along with lines from nine other Young Thug songs, are cited in a 56-count indictment that was handed down last month. According to the indictment, the rapper and 27 other people, including Young Thug's protege and star in his own right, Gunna, allegedly conspired to violate the Georgia criminal racketeering law. Authorities say they believe the two are associated with the Atlanta-based YSL gang and they're accused of conspiring to violate the state's RICO Act. Now in that same indictment, officials tie the individuals to the street gang where rapper Young Thug is listed as a founder,

which started out on Cleveland Avenue in southwest Atlanta with affiliation with the Blood Gang. Young Thug and Gunna have both pleaded not guilty. Gunna was already denied bond. And last week, after a seven-hour hearing featuring celebrity testimonials and record executives vouching for him, Young Thug was denied bond as well. There is a ton of alleged criminal activity in this indictment. Murders, shootings, car trackings. But there are also Instagram posts of young, not yet particularly famous rappers wearing YSL chains, and the prosecution says that that is evidence of

criminal conspiracy. Today on FrontBurner, we're joined by journalist, photographer, and commentator Jacques Morel to discuss why hip-hop artists are seeing their lyrics used against them. Thanks so much for being here today, Jacques. Yeah, thanks for having me. So I think we should start with the basics here. Who is Young Thug? What is he known for? Young Thug is one of the most influential rappers to come out of Atlanta.

Atlanta has dominated the rap scene for about going on 15 years now, especially since Houston had their run from like 2003 to 2007. Before that was like New York, but I feel like it's been fair to say that Atlanta has been running it since like 2008, 2009. And Young Thug kind of came on the scene around like 2012, 2013. He had a number of like breakthrough mixtapes,

Black Portland, Migo Thuggin with the Migos at the time. go thugging with the Migos at the time. And earlier in his career, like he was kind of, people kind of labeled him as like the, one of the front runners of the pejoratively named mumble rap because he tends to rap

in an elevated voice really quickly, rapid fire. But it's almost like an acquired taste that once you acquire it it's fantastic and um he is like i said he's incredibly influential especially in like the new slate of rappers coming out of like you know know, the highly credited XXL 2016 freshman list, like the Lil Uzi Verts of the world, you know, what people now call SoundCloud rap. And a lot of these people look to Young Thug as kind of like a shining light. And he has had a lot of mainstream successes the last couple years. He is a number one song with camila cabello and havana

he worked with jamie xx uh he's just most recently on the new calvin harris single with dualipa um he's not really the one that's gonna do the most gangbuster uh sales numbers um but his last two albums so much Much Fun and Punk, have done very well. And he just continues to influence just like by just being on tracks and just by existing. Like you listen to Young Thug,

you always get to hear a new flow. You always get to hear a new sound. And he has some lyrics too. When you pick up that taste, like you really understand like, oh, he's actually very lyrical in that, too. So, yeah, Young Thug, yeah. Okay, so I think this all brings us to this indictment. Members of YSL are alleged to be in a criminal gang with ties to the Bleds. But before this, as far as we knew it, YSL was essentially a record label, right? Founded by Young Thug. Yeah, YSL was like a record label. Yeah,

Gotti's on it, Gunna's on it. Like, you know, I think if I'm correct, Lil' Key was also on it. Lil' Key just recently passed away. But like, yeah, it was a record label, you know, featuring artists that, you know, are associated with Young Thug and assigned to Young Thug. People on the ground have been saying that they were also like a gang as well. But I think as we knew it colloquially, culturally, you know, especially coming from up here in new york like you know ysl was kind of like young thugs label young thugs crew okay and you know i know that the record label is ysl stands for young stoner life but just for some clarity here uh they're also referred to as young slime life right and i wonder if you could just uh explain that distinction for me

it appears in the indictment that the indictment kind of seeks to separate but also join the two as like Young Stoner Life being the record label and Young Slime Life being a gang that was founded by Young Thug. And the gang is like where, you know, most of the actions in quote, unquote, in furtherance of a conspiracy are like kind of lie. I feel like in some ways that there is a way to like groups of black men, you know, giving themselves a name, you know, other people are going to always kind of construe it as a, as a gang. And, you know, they're also innocent until proven guilty. So it's kind of murky in a way. I feel like you can only really know for sure if you're like on

the ground in Atlanta and you know how these things are going, but I do say that, yeah, if you're like on the ground in Atlanta and you know how these things are going, but I do say that, yeah, Young Thug is affiliated with both Young Stornal Life and Young Slime Life. And then they have like catchphrases like slat, slat, slat, slat. Slime love all the time. That was like one of the terms, you know? Okay. And so Young Thug and 27 other people were indicted. They're charged under RICO, the Racketeer Influence and Corruption Organizations Act. And this allows prosecutors to gather all of this evidence.

And even if some of it on its face is not criminal, the sum of all the evidence is used to show that a more serious criminal organization is working here. Charges are all part of this larger conspiracy. And I know that you've gone through the indictment and you've been keeping up with the case. So going through it, what stood out to you? I think the thing that stands out to me the most is about 11 instances. And I think there's more that was presented most recently, they used Young Thug and Duke and Gunna and, you know, they used music lyrics against them as a way to say that this was a night further into the conspiracy. Nine of Young Thug's songs are used as evidence. District Attorney Fannie Willis says,

I believe in the First Amendment. It's one of our most precious rights. believe in the First Amendment. It's one of our most precious rights. However, the First Amendment does not protect people from prosecutors using it as evidence if it is such. It feels like the Fulton County DA is kind of saying that the music was there to also to promote the gang in itself. So if you are an artist that, you know, was affiliated with Young Thug that shouted out YSL or used YSL in any type of music lyric, it could be included as well. And there are a couple other instances of lyrics that just don't make sense, but just kind of feel like stretches in a sense. is using a big part of like their social media presence, you know, other things that they posted online as a way to kind of like paint this picture that Young Thug and his compatriots were promoting

and like ordering out hits on like music lyrics and talking and bragging about it. I guess it just kind of puts this place in a way like, oh, that hip hop can't be this artistic expression and that instead it's like you're just like it's like a live blog where you're constantly detailing your actions which if you know anything about how young thug creates songs it just feels like a crazy stretch how does he create songs young thug essentially he starts his music by like kind of like mumbling melodies out and then freestyling it. So Young Thug is like making like sometimes like 20 to 30 songs a day. And a really good profile by the Times back in 2015 on Thug, like they talk about how like he's kind of just sitting in the studio all day, just kind of listening to beats, just making songs. And they're just all freestyling. You know, rappers have been freestyling since the dawn of hip hop, but, you know,

using freestyling as a primary recording tactic, you know, has been happening since like Houston, you know, with DJ Screw and stuff like that. But it really kind of jumped on the scene when Lil Wayne kind of dropped the Carter documentary in like the late 2000s and everybody saw him freestyle swagger like us. So if you're Young Thug and you're in your studio, you're in a studio recording like 20 songs a day, going through beats all day you're just kind of freestyling all of it to have like the da turn around and say that oh this is like you just detailing what's actually happening in your life and not just like in the moment creative musings like it just kind of feels like it almost gives it too much credit in a way in my opinion in a way

that like this doesn't happen to other genres of music like other genres of music aren't put up to this level of scrutiny aren't put up to this level of people think that everything that they're saying is true you know like Lil Uzi Vert has a line where he says like if I stand on my money and it's like well like Lil Uzi Vert's not actually getting his money and like standing on it and like measuring himself, right? Like, you know, hip hop, a lot of it is in bravado. A lot of it is in creating images, creating characters. You know, Young Thug has many different alter egos, you know, whether like he's rapping as Sex or he's rapping as Jeffrey or, you know, like his voice changes in different places to kind of like denote different ideas.

And it's just like, it sucks all the creative endeavor out of Young Thug, what he's making and just hip hop just generally as an art form and kind of treats it as if it's like a journalistic piece that has an editor going through it, fact-checking it and saying, okay, yeah, this is good to go. When it really is just a bunch of people hanging out in the studio, freestyling.

In the dragon's den, a simple pitch can lead to a life-changing connection. Watch new episodes of Dragon's Den free on CBC Gem. Brought to you in part by National Angel Capital Organization, empowering Canada's entrepreneurs through angel investment and industry connections. Hi, it's Ramit Sethi here. You may have seen my money show on Netflix. I've been talking about money for 20 years.

I've talked to millions of people and I have some startling numbers to share with you. Did you know that of the people I speak to, 50% of them do not know their own household income? That's not a typo, 50%. That's because money is confusing. In my new book and podcast, Money for Couples, I help you and your partner create a financial vision together. To listen to this podcast, just search for Money for Couples. In the indictment, do prosecutors point to like underlying facts that would support the lyrics that they're singling out? You know what I mean? Like highlight lyrics that they believe point to a crime and then can actually point to a real crime having happened. Yeah, there's one instance in particular,

notably Young Thug Nicki Minaj's song Anybody. And on the chorus, Young Thug says, I never killed anybody, but I got something to do with that body. And the prosecution in the indictment links that lyric to a drive by shooting that happened in 2015, where they alleged that Young Thug rented a car that was used in the shooting. And that is also one of the shootings that kind of kicked off the whole beef between Young Thug, YFN, and YSL, which is what a lot of the indictment is trying to stop in a way. And the murder was of Donovan thomas jr at the time and it just feels like this song came out years after that murder that murder happened in like 2015 but this this song came out i think in about like 2018 or so it came out in a little mixtape called hear no evil that had two other songs on it from my read of it like like i said if you just know how young

thug makes music it feels like they listen to a you just know how Young Thug makes music, it feels like they listen to a lot of Young Thug in order to kind of like pull certain lyrics to kind of link them together. This alleged gang, what other kind of activities, like in real life activities are, you know, alleged members being accused of here in this indictment? you know, alleged members being accused of here in this indictment? They're accused of intent to sell drugs. They're accused of just like general racketeering, like running a profitable criminal enterprise. You know, I know Gunna was like also accused of having stolen property, having weapons. They're really kind of pulling everything and everything that they could have possibly done. And they're kind of looping it into this case.

I mean, that's the point of a RICO, right? To get everything in there. We talked about the use of lyrics, but the indictment, I noticed when I was looking through it, it similarly used a social media post. Flagged because people in them are wearing this like YSL gear. And, you know, Gunna, who you mentioned, was charged with conspiracy. And part of why he was charged with conspiracy. And part

of why he was charged with this is because he was wearing a chain in a music video. And I wonder what your reaction to that is. My reaction to that is it's, it just makes it so wide range to the point where people were thinking, were asking tongue in cheek, if Jack Harlow, who was pictured with a YSL chain would also be part of the gang. And, you know, that was at the initial press conference. And they said that Jack Harlow is not under investigation. But it's part of their, it's like to make their case. And, you know, I feel like we as citizens should be skeptical about it because something we've learned that we've known,

if you're a Black American, you've known for a very long time. But that has been more in the public's field that like, please do lie. But at the end of the day, like, you know, there is like violence on the ground, there are people that are have been, you know, following this case that have been following this beef for a long time that have been found that do live in Atlanta that are affected by this. So I think it's just kind of like trying to like, find a way to kind of straddle both worlds. And, you know, something I said in an initial piece that I worked on is that my main gripe is about the use of the music lyrics, because it's just like, Hey, like,

you know, what about, what happened to just doing just police work and trying to find like the hard facts instead of like trying to like listen to like a lot of songs. Like I wonder if they became fans while listening to his music. like listen to like a lot of songs like i wonder if they became fans while listening to his music um is there any history of lyrics uh particularly in hip-hop being used in cases against the artist yeah music lyrics have been used against rappers and songs for a very very long time even if you go back to like two live crew getting um getting charged in Miami back in the early 90s for their album As Nasty As You Want To Be. A freak to call, picked up the telephone,

then dialed the seven digits and, yo, it's Marquise, baby, are you down with it? And, you know, getting arrested offstage for, like, obscenity. And also, like, Bobby Shmurda famously and his song Hot Nigga. When we shoot, it's just some G-star. G-S-9, I go so far. And also like Bobby Shmurda famously and his song Hot Nigga. When that was also used in like a wide ranging indictment that saw him and Rowdy Rebel and, you know, a lot of number of his crew gets sent away for about like seven years. And music lyrics was part of, you know, that case. It happened to Drake, you know, the ruler, the late Jake, you know, the ruler who passed away in the end of 2021,

but he had beaten a case as well, like last year, but he had music lyrics used against him. This other black man, Yvonne Skinner in 2008. So basically like if you are a rapper and you get charged with something, you know, that has nothing to do with your music, they're also going to use your music to kind of paint a picture that some experts say prejudices the jury to kind of get them to look at you as like an angry and aggressive, you know, black man in order to kind of like further secure conviction. Whereas if this is always brought up all the time, but the famous Johnny Cash line, I shot a man in Reno. I shot a man in Reno

just to watch him die. You know, no one is going at Johnny Cash, you know, and saying that he was a murderer. And it just kind of saps, and it saps the idea of rap being a creative enterprise. The legendary Kevin Lyles, he's the head of 300 Entertainment,

Young Thug's label, was to understand and trying to get Young Thug Bond, which he was denied, and pointed this out as well, saying that when it comes to hip hop, it's only for us. It's only, you know, the music is only used against us. But when it comes to like, you know, other genres of music, no one is like parsing through the lyrics and seeing if, you know, this is like worth putting them in one of the ways to escape the tough neighborhoods these kids are born into. They gain notoriety for speaking about these tough experiences in their music. And then there's this potential that speaking about these experiences in their songs lands them in the crosshairs of the law. Yeah, it's a catch-22. It's like if you're an artist, you're trying to rap about the world you

see around you. And you're rapping about it in ways that feels right to you. You're putting lyrics, you know, you're putting stuff down on the page, you know, that feels honest, and that feels real. But at the same time, if you get into like an altercation with the law, which happens, you know, which is, you know, which is sometimes these artists can't leave the situations that they, that they are brought up in. It's hard to like leave where your family is. It's hard to not go back into these areas, right? It's hard to move away and that the police are going to use this,

like I said, as a way to kind of like continue to paint this image of like who you are when it's like, really, this is like, you're just rapping about like forces you are when it's like, really, this is like, you're just rapping about like forces that are far above that are far beyond your control that puts you in a situation where you have few opportunities, but to like, to put this onto the page. Yeah. It's just something that like, that if you were a couple like white kids making a garage band,

you would never have to think about, but if you're like a group of like black kids you know you gotta like explain that there is like a real effort to i've had a conversation with a manager of like some brooklyn drill artists a couple months ago and he had mentioned how he was trying to get them to stop putting the names of their ops and ops is a term for like the opposition basically basically your enemies. And to try to stop putting the names of their ops in their lyrics, that's why they can kind of stop the violence in a way. Because a lot of these songs, like especially when they're on like the ground level and they're not being listened to by the wider public,

like they mean certain things to certain people, but like they're not necessarily like for like wider consumption. So a lot of these people are rapping for the, you know, a couple hundred people they see in the neighborhoods. So what he was telling me, he was like, Hey, I've just been trying to get to like stop name dropping people because that's where a lot of the violence can kind of happen. But even then, like even if you are like name dropping or whatnot,

like I just feel like to be used in the court of law, it has to be very specific. And like, I just feel like even the people that are even the good guys have to play by the rules. Yeah. I mean, you know, I keep thinking like the misfits never got charged for talking about grisly assault and murder. It's horror punk, you know? Yeah, exactly, right? It's like their entire genre is, you know, death metal, right? Like, you know, you don't have people, like, you know, stringing people up and using them for their stuff. And it just doesn't happen to some people.

Some people it happens to, but when it comes to, you know, for rap, it's like, you know, it happens like all the time. And it's just, you know, primarily like Black men. Mm-hmm. Jacques, thank you. Thank you very much for this. No problem. Thanks for having me.

I really appreciated being on. I'm surprised it went so quickly. Before we go today, an update on a sexual assault trial of former Headley singer Jacob Hogard. Yesterday, Hogard was found guilty of sexual assault causing bodily harm after violently raping an Ottawa woman in the fall of 2016. However, a Toronto jury acquitted him of sexually assaulting a 16-year-old fan. The former Headley frontman was also acquitted of one count of sexual interference, an offence that refers to touching someone under 16. The charge stemmed from an allegation that the musician had groped the younger complainant at one of his concerts when

she was 15. Hogard pleaded not guilty to all three charges. He now awaits sentencing. I'm Jamie Poisson. Thanks so much for joining us, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.