Front Burner - Your Guide to Canada’s Edible Pot Rules

Episode Date: June 17, 2019

The Canadian government has introduced rules around the sale of edibles and other weed products, like topicals. Sol Israel from The Leaf News walks us through what these new regulations look like, and why the new rules around edibles may have unexpected consequences.

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Hello, I'm Jamie Poisson. We've been able to buy pot in Canada for about nine months now, online and at dispensaries. But look, one of the more popular ways to consume pot is in the form of edibles. Right now, you can't buy those. But that's going to change soon. The federal government has just released its rules around edibles, and by December you'll be able to buy weed candies, weed chocolate, and even weed lotions. Today, I'm joined by Saul Israel. He's a cannabis reporter with the Winnipeg Free Press and their cannabis website, theleafnews.com.

And he's going to take me through what to expect when buying pop brownies becomes legal in Canada. to take me through what to expect when buying pop brownies becomes legal in Canada. Hint, I think it might involve some accidentally really stoned people. This is Frontburner. Hi, Saul. Hey. Thanks so much for joining us today. Yeah, my pleasure. So I think I want to start by talking about what it can feel like to be stoned on an edible. Very different than smoking weed. And maybe the best way to do that is with an example. So can you tell me about the Toronto police officer who raided an illegal dispensary and then sampled some of the product? Yeah. dispensary and then sampled some of the product. Yeah, so this happened back in January of 2018 at the time. And even still today, there were a lot of illegal cannabis dispensaries in Toronto

and the police would shut them down and they would open up somewhere else. And this cycle would kind of continue forever. But at some point in January 2018, they had raided a dispensary and some police officer, I'm not clear on whether he was really involved in the raid or not, but some police officer who was inside the dispensary at one point decided that he would snag a cannabis infused chocolate bar. That was his first mistake because obviously at this point, this chocolate bar was supposed to be police evidence, right? Right. Later in the day, he was sitting in his police car, I guess, chatting with another police officer, his partner. sitting in his police car, I guess, chatting with another police officer, his partner. According to what I've read about the trial that took place later,

they discussed how neither one of them had ever actually tried cannabis. And they decided that it would be... What a perfect time to do so. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So why not now when we're on duty? Yeah. Apparently the two of them split this chocolate bar. It's not really clear to me exactly how potent it was. Within about 20 minutes,

according to a statement of fact that was read in court later on, these officers had a really bad reaction. And I guess one of them was convinced that he was going to die. So they called for backup. They called for an ambulance. These police officers did not die, as they feared, but one of them has since resigned from the force, and, you know, he had his day in court. We wanted Officer Dominelli to get a discharge and avoid a criminal record. The judge obviously felt differently.

However, he's going to serve in the community. He offered to resign right away from the police service and offered to plead guilty. He knew he made a terrible mistake and he was prepared to take responsibility for it. I think the other one has not been in court yet. But regardless, obviously, it was, first of all, a really big embarrassment for the Toronto Police. And I think, second of all, a really good reminder for all of us that, you know, cannabis edibles can be really strong products. And especially for the uninitiated, for people who don't know what they're getting into.

Right, right. A cautionary tale. I want to talk about this with you. So explain to me why ingesting edibles has such a serious impact, you know, compared to smoking a joint. It all has to do with how your body processes THC, which is that main chemical compound in cannabis that's responsible for getting users high. So when you inhale cannabis, like from a joint or from a vaporizer, that THC goes right into your lungs, of course, and then from there pretty much directly into your bloodstream. And that happens really quickly. So if you're smoking a joint, you should probably start feeling the effects within at most 30 minutes. You know what I mean?

You really understand pretty quickly how it's impacting your body. And then you can just make that decision on your own if you want to take any more because you're feeling it right away. Exactly. Exactly. So sort of the scientific term for this would be titration, which is sort of deciding what your dose is and adjusting accordingly. titration, which is sort of deciding what your dose is and adjusting accordingly. When you consume THC, first of all, it goes through your digestive tract, of course, because it's food, and then it gets processed through the liver. And that has two important effects that make the difference here. So first of all, the onset time can be much slower. So

depending on your metabolism, your body type, it could take somewhere between, I don't know, let's say 30 minutes and two hours, or maybe even a bit more. Second of all, by the time the THC gets to your liver, your liver actually processes it into a chemically different form that's considerably more potent than the form of THC that you get when you inhale. And so you get this potent high and it can last for a really long time. So it's not uncommon to hear about a high from a cannabis edible lasting for six hours, eight hours, even 12 hours. And you sometimes hear, you know, especially among the uninitiated, you know, I've heard people say, oh, I felt high for a day after or something like that, or I didn't quite feel quite right. So you can kind of see the problem here. And I think it explains a lot about what happened to those Toronto police officers.

You have a longer onset time. So it takes longer to feel it. We're used to instant gratification. We're used to drinking half a beer and having it hit us pretty quickly. And people are impatient. They want to feel it. They want to know what's happening. And so they'll eat an entire product of cannabis edibles without really stopping to consider maybe how it will affect them down the line. And then you have a much longer duration than inhaled cannabis. And you can see the problem there. People can really get in a bit deeper than they intended to when they're ingesting these foods. That's Rogan. Now he was on with Howard Stern and he was talking about

what drugs had the most negative effect on him. And here's what he had to say. I've got to say, I've done a lot of drugs in my life. The most negative drug experiences I've ever had in my life are from weed edibles. And I ate what I thought was an appropriate amount of weed gummy, and I thought I was going to f***ing die. You know, there are people who swear by edibles and say that if you do it properly, then there are a lot of benefits, right? I certainly don't want to argue that these are products that can't be used responsibly, because they really can be used responsibly, but it takes some experience. You know, I mean,

the most obvious advantage of edible cannabis over other forms of cannabis is that you don't have to smoke. You know, I mean, smoking and vaporizing is the no-go for a lot of people. You know, the other thing, we mentioned the longer duration. For some people, especially people who are using cannabis for medical purposes, that's a feature, right? They want something that can last them all day, can provide them with symptom relief for many hours at a time. People who are experienced with cannabis edibles, some of them really prefer that kind of high. kind of high. So let's go through some of the rules that the federal government released on Friday. Yeah. So these rules actually cover three new categories of products. So there's cannabis edibles, which we've been talking about. There are cannabis topicals, which would be things like creams or something you apply directly to the skin and gets absorbed into the skin.

So those are two categories. What's the third? The third is cannabis extracts, which really covers sort of a wide variety of things. But it's basically concentrated forms of cannabis. You might have heard of products called like shatter or dabs or wax. called like shatter or dabs or wax. These are all products that have been created from taking the cannabis bud, the plant material, extracting all the good stuff from that using various chemical processes and then putting it into a concentrated form. Okay, so we've got these three categories and what are the rules saying about baked goods, for example, and candies? Like how much weed can be in those? Sure.

So, you know, as I was mentioning, the things that all these products have in common is that they're really concentrated forms of cannabis. So they contain a much higher proportion of THC by weight. That's really the main thing that the government is concerned about regulating here. The Honourable Bill Blair, Minister of Border Security and Organized Crime Reduction. There'll be potency and purity information available front of package. They'll know what it is they're consuming. If they buy it on the street, it's a crapshoot. That can't be allowed to continue.

When it comes to cannabis edibles, the government has instituted a maximum of 10 milligrams of THC, both per piece and per package. So basically what that means is you could get a package of, say, one piece of candy that contains 10 milligrams of THC, or you could get a package of two pieces of candy and they each contain five milligrams. Or you could buy one package with four candies that each contain two and a half milligrams. So you sort of get where I'm going with this. But the package itself will never contain more than 10 milligrams of THC, which

isn't to say that people who want more, you know, they could just buy more than one package. Multiple packages, right. Yeah. When something is presented with multi doses in a single package, sometimes people will inadvertently consume too much and then suffer consequences for doing that. I can't really explain what 10 milligrams of THC feels like over the radio. That is what I was just going to ask you. Yeah. Is it a lot? It depends on who you ask. I would argue, and it seems to me like from the regulations that

Health Canada is putting out, I think Health Canada would argue that 10 milligrams is a pretty high dose, especially for a beginner. In my personal opinion, I do think it's too high. There was a really excellent analysis piece in the Huffington Post by two very smart Canadian doctorates who study cannabis, Jenna Valeriani and Riel Kapler. And they made an argument that sort of the standard suggested dose of ingested cannabis should in fact be two and a half milligrams of THC. I personally agree with that. It's the government's responsibility here to protect consumers from themselves. I think that because this is something that is eaten and not smoked, it has the potential to be more appealing to people who aren't used to cannabis

and maybe haven't tried it before. They haven't tried it in a long time. And I think it's really important that, you know, that starting dose reflects their needs instead of, you know, people who are more experienced and really know what they're doing. I also want to talk to you about packaging, right? Because I know that there were quite a few specifications around this and that this has been a particular concern for candy and chocolate around kids. One thing that's important to understand here is that in its regulation, in its approach to regulations, Health Canada doesn't really say this is exactly what something has to look like, but they say here are a set of guidelines. You design your product within these guidelines and we will then tell you if it's not okay. Where we have seen in other jurisdictions where people get in difficulty

is gummy bears, for example, or things that represent cartoon characters or in the packaging, labeling, or promotion. I think it's safe to say based on what we've seen in these regulations and in the existing cannabis products, these packages are definitely going to need to have a childproof element to them. I'm pretty confident that they're going to be opaque. So it's not like it's going to be a clear plastic bag where a kid could see what's inside. One of the things Health Canada specifies is that the edibles, the food products themselves

cannot be designed in a way that is appealing to children. So again, they don't say exactly what that means, but I think it's safe for us to assume that maybe something that's like rainbow colored is not going to be compliant. Something that is shaped like an animal or a toy or some other fun, you know, kid-friendly object is not going to be allowed. You can buy these gummies online from California, but they are illegal here in the state of Florida. Investigators say the boy handed out the gummies this morning during gym class. He told detectives he didn't eat any himself, but at least five other kids did. As a matter of fact,

they ate more than the recommended amount. School officials figured out something was wrong when the kids became nauseated and dizzy. If parents want to have these products in their house, which is perfectly reasonable, you know, they're legal products for adult use, they have to keep them locked up, I think is the best thing to do. Right. You know, you treat it like your liquor cabinet. Or even like laundry detergent, right? I mean, they have childproof locks. You usually try to keep those pods away from kids as well. I know. Similar. I know. Yeah. Yeah. It makes you wonder why they don't have regulations around, you know, what color a laundry pod can be or something. Definitely. They look delicious. A hundred percent. And they're very dangerous. So that's packaging. You know, I know another

rule is that we're not going to be able to serve weed in restaurants. You just can't order a beef patty and sit down in a restaurant and eat it. But we will be able to buy it at a dispensary. Yeah, you'll be able to buy it at a licensed cannabis store. And you mentioned beef patties. Beef patties would not be allowed because a cannabis edible that is made of meat is not compliant. These things, according to the regulation, they have to be shelf stable. I know also not allowed are weed alcohol hybrids. And this does make a lot of sense to me for, I think, obvious reasons. But I also know that there are a bunch of companies who are trying to make drinks with weed in it, right? And where are we with that? Yes. Yeah, you can't mix cannabis and alcohol, according to these regulations, which I think is

a very sensible step for public health. And you also can't make a beverage with cannabis and then describe it as a beer or a wine or any other term that refers to alcohol. So there are a lot of companies that say that they're creating cannabis beverages. People are talking about these as if they're just going to instantly replace alcoholic beverages. I'm a little bit more skeptical. One of the big problems with cannabis beverages is that the cannabis that's used in these edibles generally comes in an oil form and oil and water, as we know, don't mix. So there's a bit of an issue there. They won't be able to call it beer and they won't be able to call it wine. They

will be able to infuse beverages with cannabis and call it a cannabis beverage. I've heard from the industry and people saying but you know we could make more money if you only did this or relaxed these regulations but quite frankly that's not our motivation. Our motivation is, and will always be, to protect our kids, to protect the health and safety of Canadians. We'll be back in a second. Discover what millions around the world already have. Audible has Canada's largest library of audiobooks,

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Let's talk about how big you think this market could be. I know Deloitte put out a report earlier this month suggesting that once legal, $1.6 billion a year will be spent on edibles in Canada. Another $529 million on cannabis-infused beverages alone. Do you think the demand for these products will really be as high as Deloitte suggests? Those numbers seem very high to me. Yeah, I was a bit skeptical of that Deloitte study, especially because it surveyed people based on their intention to use. And one thing I've learned, you know, covering various studies over the years is that it's

really easy for someone to say, oh, yeah, I plan to do this, you know, but it doesn't necessarily correspond to what they plan to do in reality. I think that other forms of cannabis, like the topicals and the extracts, the concentrates might make up a bit more of the market. I do think there's going to be significant interest, you know, especially from new users, I think there's going to be a curiosity factor. And we saw a bit of that immediately after the legalization of just regular cannabis bud, there was an uptick in use, especially among people in, you know, a bit of that immediately after the legalization of just regular cannabis bud. There was an uptick in use, especially among people in, you know, a bit of an older kind of like the 45 to 64 demographic. And I think when cannabis edibles become available for sale, I would be very surprised if we did not

see that same kind of initial sort of curiosity. People want to try it. You know, they want to try something new. Where it settles, I mean, that's anyone's guess. I'm also super interested to hear how you think this is all going to play out. So for me, and correct me if you think I'm wrong here, you know, it looked like the legalization of weed was relatively smooth. You know, there were people who got moldy weed. That's when I found mold on the pot was after I had already consumed some of it. There were people who couldn't order weed because supplies were down. Shelves are already empty in this store in Newfoundland. We never really know when we're going to be getting our shipment.

I know that we're still dealing with the amnesty issue, and I don't want to downplay that. We're learning more about federal legislation that will waive the fee and expedite the pardon process for minor cannabis convictions. But, like, these doomsday scenarios where people getting high and getting behind the wheel and wreaking havoc on the streets or just our streets smelling like weed, they haven't really played out to me. Am I right? I mean, I would say the streets smelled like weed before legalization, but yeah, you know,

you're right. The streets smell the same amount of weed. Yeah. Right. I think you're absolutely right. And especially about the impaired driving bit. You know, there have been police forces across the country who were understandably concerned about that before legalization. And many of them are coming out now and saying, look, we've issued some tickets, but we're

not seeing some giant influx. Yeah, I agree with you that, you know, it certainly hasn't been a disaster, as some people have predicted. I do think that the rollout of edibles does increase the potential that people could harm themselves by taking too much and having a bad reaction. Right. You think it could be more problematic? Look, you know what? There's all these regulations to try and make sure that people use them correctly. They're trying to keep the THC pretty low per unit and per package. There's going to be a lot of educational materials handed out to people when they buy this stuff to advise them on how to consume. But at the end of the day, government regulation can only protect

people so much from themselves. And I guarantee you, Jamie, that we are going to hear some stories in the media of people just taking too much of a cannabis edible and having a bad time. Right. Just like this police officer who had to call an ambulance, essentially. Exactly. Except, you know, the big difference is that that police officer apparently did not have or at least did not follow any guidelines on how to use that product wisely. Right. He just split an entire chocolate bar with his partner. Here's this question that I'm struggling with, and all weekend actually, knowing that we were going to have this conversation, I was hoping to get the chance to ask you this. For me, I do understand why the government legalized weed. I'm having a harder time understanding why this second step, right?

Like why legalize edibles? Because there seems to be so many potential pitfalls here. Well, I think it just comes down to the government's objectives with legalization. So just to review, the three really big legislative objectives were, first of all, to keep cannabis out of children. And, you know, I definitely agree with you that legalizing edibles maybe doesn't make sense in that perspective. But the other two are to diminish the black market for cannabis and to provide adults with, you know, a safe and quality controlled supply of cannabis. And I think when you consider it from the point of view of those second two objectives, that's why they're doing

this. You know, cannabis edibles are everywhere on the black market right now. And if the government wants to compete, they need to make legal versions of those products available to consumers. Otherwise, they can't succeed in achieving their own goals with legalization. And I think that's what it comes down to. So thank you so much. It's such a pleasure to talk to you as always. And I hope that you'll come back and keep us posted as we move along here. I'm always happy to talk weed with you, Jamie. As I mentioned in my conversation with Sol, one ongoing issue with the legalization of weed in Canada is amnesty for people with prior pot convictions. These prior convictions can really mess up their lives for

something that is now legal. There's a bill that's currently before the Senate that would offer these people a chance to apply for a pardon. It needs to get passed while Parliament is still sitting. Summer break, it starts at the end of June. We'll keep you posted on this story. That's it for today, though. Thanks for listening to FrontBurner. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts. It's 2011 and the Arab Spring is raging. A lesbian activist in Syria starts a blog. She names it Gay Girl in Damascus.

Am I crazy? Maybe. As her profile grows, so does the danger. The object of the email was, please read this while sitting down. It's like a genie came out of the bottle and you can't put it back. Gay Girl Gone. Available now.