Futility Closet - 120-The Barnes Mystery

Episode Date: September 5, 2016

In 1879 a ghastly crime gripped England: A London maid had dismembered her employer and then assumed her identity for two weeks, wearing her clothes and jewelry and selling her belongings. In this week's episode of the Futility Closet podcast we'll describe the murder of Julia Thomas and its surprising modern postscript. We'll also discover the unlikely origins of a Mary Poppins character and puzzle over a penguin in a canoe. Intro: Early airplanes were sometimes attacked by confused eagles. Alberta, Canada, has been rat-free for 50 years. Sources for our feature on the murder of Julia Thomas: Elliott O'Donnell, ed., Trial of Kate Webster, 1925. Transcript of Kate Webster's trial at the Old Bailey. "The Richmond Murder," Glasgow Herald, May 29, 1879. "Kate Webster Hanged," Reading [Pa.] Eagle, July 31, 1879. Matt Blake, "Attenborough Skull Mystery Finally Solved," Independent, July 5, 2011. Cigdem Iltan, "The Skull in the Backyard," Maclean's 124:28 (July 25, 2011), 37. Park Road, Richmond, today. At left is the site of the former Mayfield Cottages, where the murder took place. At center is the home of naturalist Sir David Attenborough. At right is the site of the former Hole in the Wall pub. Thomas' skull was discovered in 2010 at the site of the pub's stables. Listener mail: GitHub, "System Bus Radio" (retrieved Sept. 2, 2016). Catalin Cimpanu, "Emitting Radio Waves From a Computer with No Radio-Transmitting Hardware," Softpedia, March 2, 2016. A 40-second rendition of the discarded Mary Poppins song "Admiral Boom." Wikipedia, "Mary Poppins (film)" (retrieved Sept. 2, 2016). This week's lateral thinking puzzles were contributed by listeners Matt Sargent and Jacob Bandes-Storch. You can listen using the player above, download this episode directly, or subscribe on iTunes or Google Play Music or via the RSS feed at http://feedpress.me/futilitycloset. Please consider becoming a patron of Futility Closet -- on our Patreon page you can pledge any amount per episode, and all contributions are greatly appreciated. You can change or cancel your pledge at any time, and we've set up some rewards to help thank you for your support. You can also make a one-time donation on the Support Us page of the Futility Closet website. Many thanks to Doug Ross for the music in this episode. If you have any questions or comments you can reach us at [e-mail]. Thanks for listening!

Welcome to the Futility Closet podcast, forgotten stories from the pages of history. Visit us online to sample more than 9,000 quirky curiosities from eagles attacking airplanes to a province without rats. This is episode 120. I'm Greg Ross. And I'm Greg Ross. And I'm Sharon Ross. In 1879, a ghastly crime gripped England. An Irish maid had dismembered her employer and then assumed her identity for two weeks,

wearing her clothes and jewelry and selling her belongings. In today's show, we'll tell the story of the Barnes mystery and its surprising modern postscript. We'll also discover the unlikely origins of a Mary Poppins character and puzzle over a penguin in a canoe. Shortly after 7 a.m. on the morning of March 5, 1879, a coal porter named Henry Wheatley was driving a cart along the banks of the Thames when he spotted a wooden box lying half in the water. He pulled it ashore and cut the cord that bound it and gave it a kick, and it fell to pieces, disclosing a mass

of flesh. A man who was with him judged that it was probably just ordinary butcher's meat, but Wheatley went to the police, and the flesh turned out to be human. They pieced it together and found that it constituted almost the entire body of a woman, and from the parchment-like quality of the skin and the total absence of decomposition, the doctor who examined it concluded that it had probably been boiled. I said that some parts of it were missing. It was the whole body of a woman minus one foot and the head and a few smaller pieces. And in those days, without a head, you couldn't identify a body at all. So the inquest returned an open verdict. They couldn't identify who it was. They just knew it was a woman who had apparently been killed. And it remained mysterious for some time. Two weeks later, on September 22nd, two men arrived at a police station to report that

a local woman named Julia Thomas had disappeared and an unknown woman had apparently been impersonating her and attempting to sell her belongings. It became clear that the unknown woman may have been Thomas's servant, a woman named Kate Webster, because she also disappeared shortly after the suspicions arose, and she had a known criminal record. So she was eventually tracked down at her uncle's house in Ireland, and the following grisly tale unfolded. Kate was born Catherine Lawler, but went by Kate Webster. She was born in Ireland at about 1849 and almost immediately took up a life of crime. She was imprisoned for larceny at an early age and then left Ireland and took up a career as a robber, first in Liverpool and then in London. In 1873, she lodged in Hammersmith, a district in West London, where she became friendly with a local family known as the Porters. She eventually moved on, and on

January 27, 1879, she started employment with Julia Thomas, the woman who was eventually murdered. January 27, 1879, she started employment with Julia Thomas, the woman who was eventually murdered. Mrs. Thomas was known for being eccentric, wealthy, and irritable, and the two butted heads almost immediately. Kate was quoted much later about how the two got on. She said, quote, At first I thought her a nice old lady, and I hoped that I might be comfortable and happy with her, but I found her very trying, and she used to do many things to annoy me during my work. When I had finished my work in my rooms, she used to go over it again after me and point out places where she said I did not clean, showing evidence of a nasty spirit towards me.

This sort of conduct towards me by Mrs. Thomas made me feel an ill feeling for her. They butted heads for only a month before Mrs. Thomas had had enough and fired her. Thomas's diary entry of February 28th says, gave Catherine warning to leave. In fact, that was the last diary entry Mrs. Thomas's diary entry of February 28th says, gave Catherine warning to leave. In fact, that was the last diary entry Mrs. Thomas ever made. Kate asked her whether she might stay on for just a few more days, probably until March 3rd, just so she had time to find new dwellings,

and Thomas reluctantly agreed to that. On Sunday, March 2nd, Kate went to a public house where she laughed and chatted with men. She returned to the cottage late and said she'd drunk too much, and she found Thomas, who was a devout Presbyterian, dressed for church and impatient to go, and they snapped at each other. Kate later testified she became very agitated and left the house to go to church in that state. Kate later explained what happened when she got back to the house. Upon her return from church, before her usual hour, Mrs. Thomas came in and went upstairs. I went up after her, and we had an argument, which ripened into a quarrel, and in the height of my anger and rage, I threw her from the top of the stairs to the ground floor.

She had a heavy fall. I felt that she was seriously injured, and I became agitated at what had occurred, lost all control of myself, and to prevent her screaming and getting me into trouble, I caught her by the throat, and in the struggle she was choked, and I threw her on the floor. So Mrs. Thomas was then dead and Kate found herself alone with this body. There had been no witnesses, but she had to find some way to dispose of the body. She carried it downstairs and put it on the kitchen table. And then I'm reading this from her confession, which came much later. I determined to do away with the body as best I

could. I chopped the head from the body with the assistance of a razor, which I used to cut through the flesh afterwards. I also used the meat saw and the carving knife to cut the body up with. I prepared the copper, which is a cauldron of water in which clothes could be heated over a fire, with water to boil the body to prevent identity, and as soon as I had succeeded in cutting it up, I placed it in the copper and boiled it. I opened the stomach with the carving knife and burned up as much of the parts as I could. Apparently, from what I'm able to understand, she was doing everything she could think to do to dispose physically of this body, both by boiling it and by burning it. They found some bones and other remains in the fire as

well. And to keep people from being able to easily identify it also, it sounds like. Yes. It's hard to tell how rational she was. I mean, it must have been just awful. Yeah, I can't imagine just hacking through a body like that. Yeah. She was still at it at dawn on March 3rd. When the sun came up, she was still desperately intent on getting rid of the body. She must—had to get the worst of the job done before the people next door got up, because they would hear all these noises.

And, in fact, that started to happen. Miss Ives, who was the landlady who lived next door, testified that, quote, all that morning there was a very strong smell. The other neighbors said they noticed this as well, but apparently it was customary on Monday mornings for people to do their washing. And apparently, at least in those days, that created some smell anyway, so no one felt strongly enough about this to confront her about it. Kate commenced her routine when it was fully light out, just to keep up appearances, doing some washing and hanging it in the garden to dry. when it was fully light out just to keep up appearances, doing some washing and hanging it in the garden to dry.

She then apparently returned to getting rid of the remains and was still doing that at 11 o'clock, having been up all night and most of the morning. When the neighbors heard the noises cease and a silence ensued, probably she just fell asleep out of exhaustion. She was seen departing the house at about 3 o'clock with a parcel headed for Twickenham that afternoon. The parcel probably contained a foot. Remember, I said the box was missing a head and a foot and a few other pieces. The foot was later

found on a rubbish heap in Twickenham by someone who must have been very perplexed. Yeah, can you imagine that? Starting your day off by finding a foot? But she managed, apparently, to pack all the rest of the body into the box I've told about and a bag, which was separate, which no one knows what that contained, but there were some parts of the body in there, perhaps entrails, I guess. She returned to Mayfield around eight o'clock and worked into the night, tidying and cleaning up until she fell asleep again in exhaustion. And early the next morning, which was Tuesday, she was seen in one of the bedroom windows, quote, with her sleeves rolled up as if engaged in cleaning. And then interesting things started to happen, if that's not interesting enough already for you. At three o'clock that afternoon, she emerged from the house wearing one of Thomas's,

the dead woman's, silk gowns and wearing her gold watch and chain and several of her rings, and set out to visit her friends, the porters, at Hammersmith, which is about six miles away. She hadn't seen the porters in about six years. Apparently, it turned out what she was planning to do was flee back to her home, Ireland. But first she had to get rid of the body, meaning get rid of the bag and the box in which she'd hidden the remains. And she hoped to enlist the porters to help her do that unwittingly. She greeted Henry Porter, the father, when he answered the door by saying, I have simply been longing to see you again, father. And they took her in gladly and gave her

tea while she had this bag. Again, no one knows what's in the bag. She had it with her under the table. She told them that she was still the Kate that they knew, but she'd really come up in the world in the six years since they'd seen her. She said that she'd married a man named Thomas who had then died, leaving her a widow, but she'd also inherited a house in Richmond and all these belongings. So basically, she explained that her name was now Mrs. Thomas herself, and she legitimately owned all these belongings whose owner she had actually killed. And she asked Henry, the father, whether he knew an honest broker would help her pay a

fair price for the furniture at richmond she said she wanted to sell off all the personal effects she had locally because she was journeying to see her parents who lived in scotland and they wanted her to dispose of all this local property to come and live with them her hope was that she could flee the country actually going back to ireland and setting a false trail to scotland and also make a lot of money i mean the for her as a common servant, if she could manage to sell the furniture in the house, that was worth about two to three years' worth of wages. So apparently she thought it was worth the risk

instead of just running immediately to see if she could pull off selling it and absconding with the money. So after tea with the porter, she asked whether the porter's son, Robert, who was 16 years old, might accompany her back to Richmond, the murder house. And Henry, the father, agreed, and the three of them actually set out for the station with

poor Robert, who had no idea what he was doing, carrying this bag, which he said he found strangely heavy. It was 15 inches long, 9 inches deep, and weighed 30 pounds, and you're welcome to guess what was in there. No one's ever, it was never discovered, so we don't know. At the foot of Hammersmith Bridge, they went to the Oxford and Cambridge Arms to get something to drink, and Kate told them that she'd arranged to deliver the bag to a friend whom she was to meet at Barnes, which is a local suburban district. She just asked them to wait there and left carrying the bag, saying she'd be right back, and in fact returned after 20 minutes, a suspiciously short time, but they didn't think anything suspicious about it.

As I say, no one ever recovered the bag. We don't know what happened to it. Probably she dropped it into the Thames, but no one knows what it contained. She succeeded in just getting rid of that. Mr. Porter at this point returned home, but Robert, the boy, went to the house with Kate, who fetched the box now, which is the only thing she has remaining to get rid of, from its place upstairs and asked him to help her carry it to the other side of Richmond Bridge, where she said a friend would be awaiting her to receive it. The box was heavy, and one of its handles was missing, Robert noted. They got halfway across the bridge, and she told Robert that this was where she'd arranged to meet her friend,

and asked him to run back some little distance the way they'd come and wait for her. It was dark now, so he couldn't see what had happened. He did go some ways back down the bridge and heard a splash below, and then directly afterward, Kate came hurrying along and said she'd given the box to her friend. Robert didn't think anything suspicious about this. He must have had a lot to think about afterward. He slept that night at Richmond with her where there were still bones in the fireplace and blood on the wainscoting that he didn't notice. And then the two returned afterward to the porters at Hammersmith. So no one suspects anything at all yet, and she's managed, she thinks, at least temporarily to dispose of the body. So everything she's doing is working, which is astonishing, I think. On March 17th, sorry, on Sunday, she met John Church, proprietor of a local hotel,

who said he would make her an offer on the furniture if it suited him, because he needed furniture. On Monday, she led him creepily through the house, carrying a bunch of keys, a bank book, and some papers, all of which were the property of the dead woman, Mrs. Thomas. She led him from room to room and indicated over the mantelpiece a portrait saying it was the late Mr. Thomas, her deceased husband, whom it certainly wasn't because there was no such person.

On March 17th, Church spent the day at Mayfield superintending the packing of the furniture. So this is as far as she got. She's gotten rid of the body. She's convinced everyone that she's legitimately Mrs. Thomas, owns this furniture, has found a way to sell it, and they're actually loading it into the van when finally little Miss Ives, the landlady next door, came out and asked why she had been given no notice that Mrs. Thomas was leaving. And a surreal, I guess, exchange followed here. The proprietor of the van told her he was taking it to Hammersmith at Mrs. Thomas's order. And so Mrs. Ives confronted her, Kate, and asked her where

Mrs. Thomas was, which to everyone else looked like her asking Mrs. Thomas where Mrs. Thomas was. It was the first, any crack showing up in there is the first time it's ever happened. Kate couldn't think what to say and simply said, I don't know, which isn't very satisfactory. And Miss Ives said she'd inquire further into the matter and close the door with a bang. And this completely unnerved Kate. It's the first time anything had actually gone wrong, and it was the first inkling that she might actually not escape London. Her only thought now was just to get out of town, and the only place she could think to run was back to Killane, her native town in Ireland, where everyone knew her and she would assuredly be recognized, but it was the only thing she could think to do was just to run home.

Church and Porter went to the police, finally putting two and two together, that something was amiss here. And the police showed the box in which the flesh had been found to poor young 16-year-old Robert Porter, who recognized it by its missing handle. who recognized it by its missing handle. So they finally put everything together, and Kate was arrested on March 28th at her uncle's house at Killane, where police knew she had previously been convicted for theft. She was charged with willfully murdering her mistress and with stealing her furniture and other property. The trial lasted six days and was a gigantic sensation, as you can imagine,

because all these gruesome facts came to light. Kate's lawyer tried to claim that the remains in the box hadn't been proven conclusively to be those of Mrs. Thomas, which was true, but still, all the facts fitted together to make a pretty damning picture. Kate tried to accuse three other men during the trial at different times, but as it happened, all three of them had very strong alibis, and no one believed her.

Just her story didn't hold together. So finally, at the end, she made a full confession. Here's one part of that describing the actual night of the murder. When I looked upon the scene before me and saw the blood around my feet, the horror and dread I felt was inconceivable. I was bewildered, acted as if I was mad, and did everything I possibly could to conceal the occurrence, keep it quiet, and everything regular, fearing the neighbors might suspect something had happened. I was greatly overcome both from the horrible sight before me and the smell, and I failed several times in my strength and determination, but was helped on by the devil in this vile purpose.

I remained in the house all night, endeavoring to clear up the place and clean away traces of the murder. She insisted to the end that the murder was not premeditated. She said, I cannot now recollect why I did it. Something seemed to seize me at the time. But she was convicted and hanged on July 29, 1879. And I thought that was the end of the story. It certainly would have been a great enough story like that when I started researching it. But there's a bizarre and remarkable postscript that comes along with it. the body when it was found lacked a head, which prevented them from identifying it, and they returned an open verdict at the inquest in 1879. In her confession, Kate said that she took the head away from the house and disposed of it in the way and in the place I have described to my solicitor, Mr. O'Brien, but Mr. O'Brien

apparently kept it to himself. At the trial, the solicitor general's opening statement said, notwithstanding every search that has been made and notwithstanding every effort the head has never been discovered and that remained the case for 131 years until just 2010 six years ago in october 2010 the skull was finally found in of all places the back garden of david attenborough the famous naturalist in southwest london it had been found by workmen building an extension on attenborough's home there the house he had happened to buy stood next door to the old Mayfield cottages where the murder had taken place. The house he occupied occupied the site of an old stable,

which is apparently where Kate had buried the head all those years ago. And no one had thought to look for it there, or at least hadn't found it there. So this let them finally close the case. Forensic officers used radiocarbon testing and census data to confirm the skull's true identity. It was Julia Thomas. In the corner, Allison Thompson ruled that Mrs. Webster had died of asphyxiation and head trauma, which is consistent with how Kate said she had died.

Apparently, that was actually true. So they were finally able to change the open verdict recorded in 1879 to a new verdict of unlawful killing and close the whole thing. The police called the outcome, quote, to a new verdict of unlawful killing and closed the whole thing. The police called the outcome, quote, a good example of how good old-fashioned detective work, historical records, and technological advances came together to solve the Barnes mystery. This episode is brought to you by our patrons and by Harry's.

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moisturizing shave cream, and three of Harry's five-blade German-engineered razors. Plus, there's a special offer for fans of this show. Harry's will give you $5 off your first purchase with promo code CLOSET. Go to harrys.com right now and look for the Truman set. That's h-a-r-r-y-s.com. Enter code CLOSET at checkout to get $5 off and help support this show. Stop compromising. Give Harry's a try today. We have some listener comments on some different topics today. In episode 108, Greg told us about how Ruth Bellville would carry the correct time around to the people of London. And then in episode 111, we discussed how several cities had a tradition of marking the correct time with cannons to aid sailors. Hanno Solo wrote to say, Thanks for the story about the Greenwich Time Lady and how to keep clocks in sync by cannon shot.

What hit me on the head is that this finally explains the strange behavior of the character Admiral Boom in Mary Poppins. In the movie, he is just an eccentric who is firing his cannon every day at 8 a.m. and 6 p.m., but he is actually serving a purpose to the annoyance of his neighbors. And Hanno says, reading the Wikipedia page after hearing your episode, I now learned that there was a deleted song for the character. And I'll have a link in the show notes to Admiral Boom's deleted song. Apparently, the theme from it is heard whenever Boom appears in the film, and one of the lines from the song was, the world takes its time from Greenwich, but Greenwich takes its time from me, Admiral Boom. And a variation of that line is still spoken in the film by Burt

to explain the Admiral's character. That's really interesting, because it just seems now like this crazy nonsense character that somebody just dreamed up out of thin air. Yeah, and I gather he is supposed to be pretty eccentric in the film, but it's like, right. It referred to something. It did refer to something like, why is this guy firing a cannon at exactly certain times of the day? But there's actually some logic behind it. Lewis Carroll's full of stuff like that. A lot of his books are full of references to popular culture or political figures of his day, but that stuff's all been forgotten now.

So we think it's all, he just dreamed it up out of thin air. Yeah. I unfortunately don't remember the movie Mary Poppins very well. So I remember parts of it, but I just don't remember Admiral Boom. But if we see it again,

we'll have to pay attention. And this time we'll understand why he's firing his cannon. Turning from fairly low tech to much higher tech, Will Hughes wrote to us, In episode 116, another reader wrote in with a story about broadcasting AM radio signals from an old IBM computer. This story is indeed true and is not limited to old computers. You can still do this on some modern computers, in this case late model MacBooksel MacBooks. I have included a link to a proof-of-concept program, Not My Work, that colleagues had great fun playing with. And Will sent a link to a GitHub page that has instructions that can be

used to make a MacBook emit radio waves that, when captured on an AM radio, will cause the radio to play Mary Had a Little Lamb. We'll have a link in the show notes for anyone who wants to check that out. The page notes that the author of the program, using a specified computer and radio, was able to get clear transmission from computer to radio over two meters of open air or one meter through drywall. And the author of the program has said that this was achieved using very basic equipment and that using fancier equipment should allow you to extend the range considerably. You could really mess with people. Yeah, and that's just, I mean, that's just surprising.

Like, I guess you just don't think of your computer emitting these waves and it can go even through drywall. Yeah. According to an article about this on Softpedia, this program makes use of the electromagnetic radiation that's emitted by the computer's CPU and produces the tune by manipulating which frequencies will be emitted. This works even on computers that have been deliberately disconnected or what's called air-gapped from all other systems. This part really surprised me. So this would include computers that have had their internet, wireless, Bluetooth, USB,

all audio capabilities turned off or removed. And then you would think that by doing that, you'd be able to prevent anybody from being able to spy on your computer, right? Like if you just completely air gap it in this way. But these electromagnetic emissions can still leave you vulnerable. And someone could monitor that. Yeah. And so Will notes that the National Security Agency and NATO have worked together on what's called the Tempest program to both develop ways of getting data out of enemy computer systems and to protect their own systems from being exploited using such techniques.

That's kind of scary. Yeah. So they've developed like whole standards if you want to understand all the ways that somebody could potentially spy on your computer that things you've never even thought of. So you know, it's kind of an amusing party trick. The whole Mary had a little lamb thing, but there are some potentially serious implications of it. And lastly, Chloe Adams Lopez wrote to send us a suggestion for a feature for the show and closed her email with I also wanted to write to you about a sillier point, which is that my girlfriend and I also play a lot of Pokemon Go, the augmented reality game.

And while playing the game and simultaneously listening to your podcast, we caught a triad of Eevees that we ended up naming Greg, Sharon, and Sasha. Sasha has ended up being one of my most powerful Pokemon and has evolved into a Flareon. I thought that might tickle you. Also, I love it when Sasha talks in episodes. She's a hardworking girl providing content for the podcast and her commentary is always interesting and insightful. She'll be glad to hear that. Yes. And we'll keep that in mind, Chloe. We usually try to minimize her appearances on the show as we find her a bit distracting,

but maybe we should let her have her say once in a while. She has a lot of opinions. She does. Sometimes very definite ones. And thanks so much to everyone who writes to us. And if you have any questions or comments for us, please send them to podcast at futilitycloset.com. It's my turn to try to solve a lateral thinking puzzle. Greg is going to try to stump me by giving me an odd-sounding situation,

and I have to figure out what's actually going on, asking only yes or no questions. This is from listener Matt Sargent. One day, as a change of pace, Jim decides to use mass transportation to get to work. Just before boarding, he glances at the tracking app on his phone and notes the current latitude and longitude coordinates. The trip was uneventful, though Jim was a bit annoyed at the number of stops along the way. When the trip concludes, Jim disembarks and is now only a short walk from his workplace. He again looks at his phone and notices that his current coordinates have not changed, despite the fact that he had traveled in a straight line and always in the same direction.

What occurred? Okay, I'm going to guess there's something interesting about the location. You're going to say no? Okay. No, there isn't. You mean like he's at the North Pole or something? Yeah, or he's in space. No.

There's nothing interesting about the location? No. Oh, now I'm really confused. Okay. The latitude and longitude haven't changed. Has the altitude changed? Yes. Well, he took mass transit to work. Was it like a ski lift? No. You're on the right track there. What else goes up that you would consider mass transit? So he's pretty much in the same spot. He's just higher up than he was before.

Yes. And when you say mass transit, so he was riding something that multiple other people—oh, well, an elevator. Yes. An elevator at a very tall building because he took multiple stops. You've got it. Jim lived in the same building that he worked in. Instead of the stairs, he decided to take the elevator. Although we don't often think of it as such,

the elevator is one of the most used forms of mass transportation in the world. GPS devices calculate your location as being on a mathematically defined ellipsoid without regard to altitude, so if you travel straight up, your coordinates do not change. Ah. Actually, I suppose GPS does calculate altitude. Some of them do. Yeah, but not in most apps. It would just give you latitude and longitude. Anyway, thank you, Matt suppose GPS does calculate altitude. Some of them do. Yeah, but not in most apps.

It would just give you latitude and longitude. Anyway, thank you, Matt. Thank you, Matt. In fact, you got through that two minutes this time. You've been on a tear lately, so I'll give you another one. Yeah. This is from listener Jacob Bandestorch. I like this one.

Two penguins are paddling a canoe in the middle of the desert. Are they? One says to the other, where's your paddle? The other replies, it sure does. What is the meaning of this interaction? Oh, my. Two penguins are paddling a canoe in the middle of the desert. One says, where's your paddle?

And the other says, it sure does. Yes. Okay. Is this a bad translation into English from another language? No. It sounds like either that or a hallucinogenic dream. But okay. Okay. Are there actually penguins? Yes. I'm not sure what... Okay. Is this... Obviously, this didn't really happen. No. No, it's a fanciful setup, but it's a real puzzle. It's a real puzzle.

Two penguins are paddling a canoe in the middle of a desert. Yes. Okay, all right. Let's start with that. Does it matter where this is? No. No, it doesn't. Well.

I mean, because there are some places that are considered deserts like Antarctica because they don't actually get any. Oh, wow. They don't actually get any rainfall. They get very little rainfall. No, this is just a generic desert. Oh, seriously. Man, I want credit for that.

So this could be the Sahara Desert, for example. Yes. So I have to figure out what you mean by penguins. No, you don't. I don't have to figure out what you mean by penguins. You're not. I mean, do you mean birds? Yes, but they're just they're just creatures. They don't have to be penguins. I'm taking that away from you. I'm picturing penguins. They're paddling a canoe. Yes. Do I have to figure out what you mean by canoe? No. It's what you think. A boat. Yes.

There are two creatures paddling a boat through the Sahara Desert. Possibly? I have to stick in here. Jacob says, Greg's attempt to solve the puzzle about a train in episode 100 reminded me of another riddle I heard in college from a fellow student. It stumped many of us for days,

but you two are pretty clever. Okay, so let's, let's, okay, okay. Okay. Does it, but you're saying a canoe, like a boat? Yes. So there are two creatures in a boat in the desert. Yes. That's exactly right.

And that's exactly right. Okay. All right. Is this a work of fiction? Like it's a movie or a poem or a book? No. No. Fantasia or a cartoon? a book no no fantasia or cartoon okay no um so i'm trying to i'm trying to figure out obviously there's a turn on something here and i've got to figure out what it is two creatures

are paddling is there some meaning to word paddle that i need to work out? No. I mean, it's what you think it is. Two penguins are paddling a canoe in the middle of the desert. And that's all what I think it is, except, well, everything I've asked, you've said, one says, where's your paddle? The other says, what does the other say? The other says, it sure does.

It sure does. So the puzzle is basically, that doesn't seem to make any sense. Well, of course, none of it makes any sense. Where's your paddle? it sure does. It sure does. So the puzzle is basically that doesn't seem to make any sense. Well, of course. None of it makes any sense. Where's your paddle? It sure does. Where's?

Oh, oh. Paddling a canoe in the desert would wear your paddle out. So where's your paddle means it's wearing your paddle. That's the answer. Is that really the answer? You're kidding. I was just dying to give this to you because I thought you'd either just nail it

or I couldn't imagine what you would do with this. Yes, Jacob writes, the answer is a bit of wordplay. The first penguin actually said, where's your paddle, W-E-A-R-S, referring to the rough sand. Oh my. And you got it.

I don't think I would ever have gotten that. Oh my. So thank you, Jacob, for sending that in. Thank you to both. And if anybody else has a puzzle they'd like to send in for us to use, and please do not send another one like this, you can send it to us at podcast at futilitycloset.com. If you enjoy our podcast and hearing me struggle with abstract conundrums,

then please consider becoming a patron to help support our show. Futility Closet is a full-time commitment for us, and while we do accept some advertising on the show, it doesn't cover the amount of time that the show takes to make. If you would like to chip in and help keep us going, please see the support us section of our website. If you're looking for more quirky curiosities, check out the Futility Closet books on Amazon, or visit the website at futilitycloset.com, where you can sample more than 9,000 uptaking snattics. At the website, you can also see the show notes for the podcast and listen to previous episodes. If you have any questions or comments about the show, you can reach us by email at podcast at futilitycloset.com. Our music was written and performed by the ever-talented Doug Ross.

Thanks for listening and we'll talk to you next week.