Futility Closet - 238-The Plight of Mary Ellen Wilson

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to the Futility Closet podcast, forgotten stories from the pages of history. Visit us online to sample more than 10,000 quirky curiosities from George Washington's rank to Robert Benchley's excuses. This is episode 238. I'm Greg Ross. And I'm Sharon Ross. In 1873, a Methodist missionary in New York City heard rumors of a little girl who was kept locked in a tenement and regularly whipped. She uncovered a shocking case of neglect and abuse that made

Starting point is 00:00:38 headlines around the world. In today's show, we'll tell how one girl's ordeal led to a new era in child welfare. We'll also outsource Harry Potter and puzzle over Wayne Gretzky's accomplishments. In the winter of 1873, a Methodist missionary in New York City named Etta Angel Wheeler began to hear reports of a severely abused child in Hell's Kitchen, one of the worst slums in the city. She heard that a little girl of five or six lived in a tenement on West 41st Street with a man and a woman who often whipped her and frequently left her alone all day locked up in an inner room with windows darkened.

Starting point is 00:01:20 In the space of two years, the other tenants had seen the girl only once. They knew she was being beaten, but the landlord had refused to intervene, and now this family had moved to a new apartment on the same street. Other tenants at the old building told Wheeler the same story, so she decided to investigate. She made her way to number 341, the family's new home, and knocked at the door but got no answer. When she tried the apartment next door, she found a young woman, very ill, who had just arrived from Germany. As the two talked, the woman said she'd often heard a child crying next door. At length, Wheeler went back to the first door and knocked again.

Starting point is 00:01:52 This time a woman answered and asked what she wanted. Wheeler spoke to her about the sick neighbor and managed to talk her way into the apartment, where, she said, I saw a pale, thin child, barefoot, in a thin, scanty dress, so tattered that I could see she wore but one garment besides. It was December, and the weather was bitterly cold. She was a tiny mite the size of five years, though as afterward appeared she was then nine. From a pan set upon a low stool, she stood washing dishes, struggling with a frying pan about as heavy as herself. Across the table lay a brutal whip of twisted leather strands, and the child's meager arms and legs bore many marks of its use. But the saddest part of her story was written on her face,

Starting point is 00:02:30 in its look of suppression and misery, the face of a child unloved, of a child that had seen only the fearsome side of life. Wheeler determined to help the little girl, but there seemed to be no one to turn to. The police told her they needed evidence of a crime, not just hearsay, in order to make an arrest. And benevolent societies could accept a child who was presented to them, but they had no power to remove her from her home. Weeks went by, and Wheeler continued to visit the sick woman, who told her what she could hear of the girl's abuse. It had passed through Wheeler's mind several times that she might approach Henry Berg, the founder of the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. The idea seemed absurd, but finally one day her niece said, you were so troubled over that abused

Starting point is 00:03:08 child, why not go to Mr. Berg? She is a little animal, surely. Wheeler went to the society offices where Henry Berg listened courteously to her story. As she'd hoped, he had a kind heart. He'd established the ASPCA in 1866 after witnessing various cruelties committed on animals. He once said, I was never especially interested in animals, though I always had a natural feeling of tenderness for creatures that suffer. What struck me most forcibly was that mankind derived immense benefits from these creatures and gave them in return not the least protection. He told Wheeler that he was very interested in the little girl's case, but that they needed to move carefully if they were going to propose separating a child from her guardian. In the 1870s, there were laws in place protecting children against abuse, but they weren't enforced

Starting point is 00:03:48 systematically. The authorities had the power to remove children who were neglected or suffering, but they weren't given the responsibility to seek them out, so generally someone had to bring a case forward before legal action could take place. In 2013, Gerald Mallon of Hunter College wrote, Students in my child welfare classes are always shocked to hear that there was protection for cruelty against animals before there was equal protection for children in this country. Gerald Mallon of Hunter College wrote, Wheeler gave Berg a written statement describing the little girl's case, and he sent an investigator to the apartment posing as a census worker. And Berg's lawyer found a variation on the ancient writ of habeas corpus that could be used to liberate a person from unlawful detention. That was enough to get Judge Abraham Lawrence to issue a warrant authorizing the police to take the girl into

Starting point is 00:04:28 custody. There's a myth that's grown up around the story that isn't quite accurate. People often say that the girl was saved under animal protection laws, that Wheeler had made an appeal for her as a member of the animal kingdom. You sometimes see a quote attributed to Henry Berg, the child is an animal. If there is no justice for it as a human being, it shall have at least the right of the cur lost in the street. That's not accurate. The quote seems to have been invented by Jacob Rees, a reporter who was in court that day. Berg wasn't invoking the animal protection laws.

Starting point is 00:04:56 He asked his lawyer to state to the court that his action was prompted by his feelings and duty as a humane citizen and that he wasn't acting in his capacity as president of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. But I have to say, the myth isn't terribly far from the truth. Wheeler did appeal to the president of the ASPCA because she knew of his humanitarian endeavors, and she herself says she thought it was kind of absurd or incongruous that she would approach him. In fact, she even says when she was telling the story, he listened with a slight air of

Starting point is 00:05:21 amusement that such an appeal should be made there. It almost makes sense, though, because if nobody else had any experience with these types of cases, at least investigating animal abuse is the closest thing you're going to get maybe to investigating child abuse. Yeah, and she had reason to believe that he would, you know, hear the story sympathetically. So it does make more sense than it might. In any case, on April 9th, 1874, the New York police went to the apartment of Mary and Frances Connelly, the girl's foster parents,

Starting point is 00:05:50 wrapped the girl in a carriage blanket to keep her warm, and took her to police headquarters. The matron found she was filthy. Her hair was matted and full of vermin, and it took a scrub brush and several tubs of hot water to remove all the dirt that was caked on her body. In the judge's chambers, in response to a series of questions,ings on this winter. I have never been allowed to go out of the rooms where the Connellys live except in the nighttime and then only in the yard. I have never had on a particle of flannel. My bed at night is only a piece of carpet stretched on the floor underneath a window, and I sleep in my little undergarment with a quilt over me. I am never allowed to play with any children or have any company whatever. Mama has

Starting point is 00:06:44 been in the habit of whipping and beating me almost every day. She used to whip me with a twisted whip, a rawhide. The whip left black and blue marks on my body. I have now on my head two black and blue marks which were made by Mama with the whip and a cut on the left side of my forehead which was made by a pair of scissors in Mama's hand. She struck me with the scissors and cut me. I have no recollection of ever having been kissed, and have never been kissed by Mama. I have never been taken on my Mama's lap, or caressed, or petted. I never dared to speak to anybody, because if I did, I would get whipped. I never

Starting point is 00:07:14 had, to my recollection, any more clothing than I have on at present, a calico dress and skirt. I have seen stockings and other clothes in our room, but I am not allowed to put them on. Whenever Mama went out, I was locked up in the bedroom. The scissors with which Mama struck me are those now shown by Mr. Evans. I don't know for what I was whipped. Mama never said anything to me when she whipped me. I do not want to go back to live with Mama because she beats me so. I have no recollection of ever having been in the street in my life. Her life story, when it was pieced together, was one of poverty and despair. She'd been born in 1863 or 1864, but her father had been killed shortly afterward in the Civil War. Her mother,

Starting point is 00:07:51 unable to support her, had put her in the care of a woman named Mary Score and then disappeared. Score took the girl to the Department of Charities, which sent her to an almshouse on Blackwell's Island, where the average death rate was 85 percent. She survived there for six months, and then a married couple, Thomas and Ellen McCormick, had visited the island and claimed her as Thomas's illegitimate daughter, which may or may not have been the case. He died of cholera seven months later, and his wife had married Frances Connelly in 1867. The next six years are largely a blank, but when Etta Wheeler found her there, she could remember only neglect and abuse. The case went to the New York State Supreme Court.

Starting point is 00:08:27 I won't go through the whole trial, but here are some notable points. George Kellick of the Department of Charities was asked how this child had fallen into the hands of an abuser. He said that she was only one of 500 children who had been received by his department in 1864. In other words, she'd fallen through cracks in the system. Margaret Bingham, the landlady at the Connelly's former apartment, said that the child was kept sequestered in her room with the windows fastened and the blinds down. Bingham's daughter could scarcely believe the family had a child as she never saw her. Her son said that if he had to enter the apartment, Mary Ellen would run like a hunted

Starting point is 00:08:56 deer into the back room. Charlotte Feeling, who lived in the same building, said she'd had one encounter with the girl. She said one day she went out down in the yard and she went to the water closet and her mother was not at home and she had nothing on but a little bit of a petticoat and no shoes and no stockings. It was very cold and I took hold of her little arms and said, my little child, why don't you put shoes and stockings on? And she said she darsened and I said, why? And she said, my mother will not let me. And she was all black and blue. Alonzo Evans, the investigator who had posed as a census taker, said that when he first entered Mary Ellen's apartment, she ran into the corner of the room and crouched down in the corner and held her arms up as if she thought I was going to strike her.

Starting point is 00:09:33 Evans also said that when they got her into the carriage, she was very timid. Officer McDougal took her on his lap and I went to speak to her and she cringed as if she expected a blow, as if she expected I was going to strike her. Mrs. Connelly said Mary Ellen was a little devil, that she knew more than a child of 10 or 11 years, and that the girl told her husband everything she did, so she could not have a bit or a sup unknown to her husband. The whip disappeared after Mary Ellen was taken from the apartment. No one ever found it. And there's one sharp moment between Berg's lawyer, Elbridge Gerry, and Mrs. Connelly. She told him she'd formerly had three children of her own. He asked where they were, and she said,

Starting point is 00:10:07 They are in heaven, I hope, where we will all be. He said, I'm not so certain about that. Even as her trauma was coming to light, Mary Ellen's health improved visibly during the trial. Here's a description from the New York Herald of April 14, 1874. A large and curious crowd was present and anxious to get a glimpse of this wee bit creature, the recital of whose tiny life history of cruel wrong and persecution has warmed so many generous hearts with sympathy. About a dozen ladies were seated around her while one held her in her lap. How different she looked from the time she was first brought into court.

Starting point is 00:10:36 The scanty and tattered garments she then wore had been replaced by a complete new suit. Comfortable shoes and stockings encased her fairy-like feet. A most becoming little hat sat with bewitching jauntiness on her head, the rich glow of the ribbons enhancing the beauty of her soft brown hair. She looked like a little fairy, her tiny figure so sprite-like in its delicate outlines, her large black eyes radiant with joy and an expression of childlike pleasure illuminating every lineament of her expressive face. As she turned over a large picture book and chatted with the ladies, she was all smiles and delight. After several days of testimony, Judge Lawrence ordered Mary

Starting point is 00:11:09 Ellen Wilson removed permanently from the Connelly's custody. Mary Connelly was convicted of assault and battery and sentenced to the extreme penalty of the law, a year in the penitentiary at hard labor. The judge said he did this as a punishment to herself, but more as a warning to others. After removing her from the Connelly's custody, the judge sent Mary Ellen to a facility called the Sheltering Arms, which was intended not for young girls, but for prostitutes, thieves, and runaways. Etta Wheeler was concerned at this and wrote to Berg and to Judge Lawrence, asking them to place the girl elsewhere. Lawrence had her moved to the Woman's Aid Society and Home for Friendless Girls, which was an improvement, but still not what Wheeler had wanted. Eventually, she arranged

Starting point is 00:11:44 for Mary Ellen to be raised by Wheeler's own sister and brother-in-law on a farm near Rochester, New York. Less than a month afterward, Wheeler sent Henry Berg this letter. New York, June 24, 1875. My dear Mr. Berg, I returned to the city yesterday, leaving Mary Ellen very contentedly domiciled with my sister. The child bears the freedom and variety of her new life with much good sense, but with a very keen enjoyment. For the first time in her life, she is unrestrained by bolts and locks, and she enjoys being out of doors, as an escaped soul would, paradise. She is still a bit shy of all the household pets, the babies accepted, but they were all making love to her, insisting upon being friends, and she was fast losing her terror. She was greatly

Starting point is 00:12:22 troubled by my coming away, but seems already quite attached to my sister and her family. She is a helpful, kind-hearted little creature and is making friends for herself. Later she wrote, Here began a new life. The child was an interesting study, so long shut within four walls and now in a new world. Woods, fields, green things growing were all strange to her.

Starting point is 00:12:41 She had not known them. She had to learn, as a baby does, to walk upon the ground. She had walked only upon floors, and her eye told her nothing of uneven surfaces. But in this home there were other children, and they taught her as children alone can teach each other. They taught her to play, to be unafraid, to know her rights, and to claim them. She shared their happy, busy life, from the making of mud pies up to charming birthday parties, and was fast becoming a normal child. With Mary Ellen safe, Jerry and Berg discussed the need for an organization to protect children. No government agency or private organization had this specific responsibility. Charities helped, but they didn't view themselves as child protection agencies.

Starting point is 00:13:18 The police often stepped in, but child protection couldn't be their main focus. Jerry and Berg launched the New York Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children on December 15, 1874. Jerry said, Cruelty to children produces mental and physical disease, and the prevention of such cruelty is a matter therefore of grave public importance. Where cruelty in the home had been a private evil, now it was a public one. The new society stationed agents in all the magistrate's courts to investigate cases of destitution, neglect, cruelty, and waywardness of children, essentially taking responsibility for all the neglected and wayward children in the city. It became the model for child protection and rescue for several U.S. states and foreign countries. By 1880, there were 37 child protection societies

Starting point is 00:13:57 in the United States, and by 1922, there were more than 300. Mary Ellen Wilson's case was not the first criminal case of child abuse in America. Those go back to 1655. But it was the first to really galvanize public attention. In part, that's because the 1870s were a time of social movements generally, and the widespread press coverage drew attention to the flaws in the system. Also, interestingly, the rise of Darwinian thought was reducing the distance between humans and animals, and promoted the idea that children were as worthy of protection as horses and dogs. Which sounds odd at first, but if you really sort of think of what that must have looked like,

Starting point is 00:14:30 if you think of humans as an entirely different class of creature, it wouldn't necessarily occur to you that their abuse was just as culpable. Yes, but it seems amazing, given how we think about things today, to think that people were willing faster or sooner to put into place laws to protect horses than they were for children. Like that seems almost backwards in some ways. And it was sort of an insight to realize

Starting point is 00:14:54 that they're sort of the same. That children need protection too. As for Mary Ellen, she got the happy childhood that Etta Wheeler had wanted for her. At age 24, she married Louis Shutt, a railroad flagman and gardener. In 1897, they had a daughter who they named Etta after Etta Wheeler had wanted for her. At age 24, she married Louis Shutt, a railroad flagman and gardener. In 1897, they had a daughter, who they named Etta, after Etta Wheeler. Four years later, they had a second daughter, Florence. Both girls attended college, and both became teachers. Their mother, Mary Ellen, lived to October 30,

Starting point is 00:15:17 1956, when she died at age 92. Her children and grandchildren described her as gentle and not much of a disciplinarian. In episode 55, Greg told us about the mystery of the Dyatlov Pass incident, in which nine students died in very strange circumstances while on a skiing trip in the North Ural Mountains. This occurred 60 years ago this month, and both Jeffrey Chavez and Dave Lawrence recently wrote to us to let us know that Russia has now reopened the investigation. The original investigation was closed after three months, with the conclusion that the spontaneous power of nature, such as an avalanche, was to blame for the students' deaths, though that conclusion certainly didn't explain many of the rather odd circumstances,

Starting point is 00:16:15 such as most of the group wearing very little clothing in the sub-zero temperatures and some of the injuries that were found on the bodies. So many of the details were so difficult to attribute to a natural phenomenon that some have speculated that were found on the bodies. So many of the details were so difficult to attribute to a natural phenomenon that some have speculated that the students were killed by local tribesmen, or perhaps that they happened onto a secret weapons testing program, and then their deaths were staged. If something of that nature did occur, then this new investigation probably won't tell us,

Starting point is 00:16:41 because a Russian official has stated that they will only be investigating natural phenomena focusing on an avalanche, a snow slab, or a hurricane. After 60 years, it's hard to imagine what they could discover if they're only looking at potential natural causes. Yeah, they're claiming that with new technologies, they might be able to find something new. I don't know. It seems like there's just continued to be a lot of speculation swirling around it and maybe they just want to like put it to rest and say, okay, we looked again.

Starting point is 00:17:12 And didn't find anything. Or no, we decided it definitely was an avalanche or whatever. Yeah, yeah. Dave sent a link to a post on this story on the Chive that has several photos of the students on their trip, as well as some photos from the investigation, which I hadn't seen before. I found them very interesting, but for those of tender years or tender sensibilities, I will warn that the photos

Starting point is 00:17:36 include ones of the bodies as they were discovered, and that while most of the post is just a description of the incident, the findings, and some of the speculation about the mystery, it does contain a strong profanity at the end. So view at your own discretion. Those photos do just, I remember researching this thing and thinking, to me, maybe the most likely explanation is that the description that's come down to us is just wrong because it's so utterly baffling. Yes. But the photos just sort of underline how the story seems to be mostly accurate, what we're hearing. Hmm. Neil deCarteret and his kitty Nala wrote,

Starting point is 00:18:12 Dear Voices from Inside the Closet, Since Sharon's covered famous mousers of Downing Street, I thought you'd like to hear about Tittles, a 29-pound cat who lived in the toilets at Paddington Station in London in the 70s and 80s. As always, loving your work, head bumps, and best wishes to Sasha. And this story was definitely news to me. Tiddles, who was also known as the Paddington Station cat,

Starting point is 00:18:36 was apparently a bit of a celebrity in his day. He had been a stray kitten who was adopted on a cold morning in 1970 by June Watson, an attendant in the ladies' room at the train station. He then lived there the rest of his life until he was euthanized due to health problems in 1983. Apparently, Tiddles had many fans who would come and visit him and feed him. He received so many delicacies from his admirers that he had his own personal refrigerator so that they could store the tidbits of chicken liver, kidneys, rabbit, and steak. But the combination of being overfed a high-fat diet and the lack

Starting point is 00:19:11 of exercise, I guess there's not really much to do in a restroom, left Tiddles quite large. He eventually reached 32 pounds and was said to resemble a beach ball with fur. So all he did was eat all day. Probably, and get pet by people, apparently. Neil sent a link to a recent Twitter post by Rob Baker, who writes about London's history, and had posted a photo of Tittles from 1978. Many people responded to the tweet saying that they remembered Tittles

Starting point is 00:19:42 and would always make sure to look for him when they went through Paddington Station. A number of people commented that he was enormous, even more so than he looks in the photo, though it was taken a few years before his death and apparently he had continued to gain weight. One person commented that he had been like a benign and handsome Jabba the Hutt. Someone else commented that Tiddles should have been named Piddles, but another commenter explained that in the 1970s, Tiddles was a similar euphemism for something that you would tend to do in a ladies' room. Apparently, going for a Tiddle was a common phrase at the time, so apparently Tiddles was named with a bit of a sense of humor.

Starting point is 00:20:22 In episode 228, I discussed Sunspring, a science fiction movie that was written by a neural net and that was apparently very much appreciated by many of our listeners based on some of the email we got, some of which I covered in episode 233. Natalie Zadan wrote, Hello, Rosses. Just want to thank you for talking about Sunspring on the show. I have shared it with several groups of friends and we've all laughed to the point of tears. After watching the short film, one friend told me about Harry Potter and the Portrait of What Looked Like a Large Pile of Ash, a Harry Potter novel, aka three-page chapter, produced in the same way as Sunspring. It was as entertaining as Sunspring, if not more so. I highly encourage you and listeners to give it a read.

Starting point is 00:21:06 Thanks for all the wonderful episodes. And I have to say that Harry Potter and the portrait of what looked like a large pile of ash is really quite funny. CNET calls it hilariously horrible. Newsweek says, While not exactly as compelling or rational as J.K. Rowling's original text, these four new pages have the best-selling author beat when it comes to absurdist humor, and io9 calls it magically unhinged and sums it up as a somewhat nonsensical but also totally plausible story in which Harry, Ron,

Starting point is 00:21:39 and Hermione sneak up on a gang of Death Eaters in Hogwarts, challenge them to battle, and end up saying some very weird things to one another. It does seem to be a rather common notion on the web that this chapter was written by an AI, like Sunspring was, but I was a little dubious given that the text, while hilariously absurd, does seem to be much more grammatical and doesn't contain nearly as much complete gibberish as AI-generated material usually seems to. So I dug into it a bit and learned that this story was created by Botnik, which is defined on its website as The chapter was a collaboration between Humans and Voicebox,

Starting point is 00:22:24 a web-based predictive text app that is fed source material, and then, as Botnik co-founder Jamie Brew told CNET, the app offers the most common word sequences as suggestions to the human user to help them write in the style of the source material. So basically, it gives you several choices for what the next word should be, and you pick which of the words to use. Several writers in the Botnik community met in an online chat room to pitch lines they had written using VoiceBox, and Botnik's editorial team cobbled the lines together to make this story. So there was a certain amount of human discretion that allowed the text to have at least more rational grammar. But due to the use of voice box, the material, as The Verge says, still holds a faint imprint of Rowling's usual lilting whimsical

Starting point is 00:23:12 charm. Only, I would say, a little heavier on the whimsical than usual, including some surprising references to cannibalism and some weirdly friendly and polite death eaters. Here are some excerpts. and some weirdly friendly and polite Death Eaters. Here are some excerpts. Ron was standing there and doing a kind of frenzied tap dance. He saw Harry and immediately began to eat Hermione's family. To Harry, Ron was a loud, slow, and soft bird. Harry did not like to think about birds.

Starting point is 00:23:45 Harry, Ron, and Hermione quietly stood behind a circle of Death Eaters who looked bad. I think it's okay if you like me, said one Death Eater. Thank you very much, replied the other. The first Death Eater confidently leaned forward to plant a kiss on his cheek. Oh, well done, said the second as his friend stepped back again. All the other Death Eaters clapped politely. Voldemort, you're a very bad and mean wizard, Harry savagely said. Hermione nodded encouragingly.

Starting point is 00:24:12 The tall Death Eater was wearing a shirt that said, Hermione has forgotten how to dance, so Hermione dipped his face in mud. Harry could tell that Voldemort was standing right behind him. He felt a great overreaction. Harry tore his eyes from his head and threw them into the forest. Voldemort raised his eyebrows at Harry, who could not see anything at the moment. Ron threw a wand at Voldemort, and everyone applauded. Not so handsome now, thought Harry as he dipped Hermione in hot sauce. The Death Eaters were dead now, and Harry was hungrier than he had ever been.

Starting point is 00:24:50 I don't remember that much cannibalism in the original books, I have to say. From what I read, the chapter was quite a hit with Harry Potter fans and has inspired some fan art and even an animated cartoon that I have to admit I didn't watch, because according to the io9 article that I found it in, it really drives home the casual horror contained in its passages. It's one thing to read Ron was going to be spiders and imagine it in your head. It's another to see poor old Weasley's noggin on a bunch of arachnids. Sweet dreams, children. So I decided to skip it, but the link will be in the show notes for braver individuals. recipes, Jerry Seinfeld stand-up, BuzzFeed quizzes, Carl Sagan, Beyonce, Statue of Liberty negative Yelp reviews, Marx and Engels Communist Manifesto, or Sigmund Freud. Thanks so much to everyone who writes to us, human or otherwise, and pats to any small animals currently listening.

Starting point is 00:26:01 If you or your furry companion have something to say, please send us an email at podcast at futilitycloset.com. It's Greg's turn to try to solve a lateral thinking puzzle. I'm going to give him a strange sounding situation, and we're going to see if he can figure out what's going on, asking yes or no questions. If you're hearing this puzzle before March 30th, then it came from Mandy Bauer. But if it's after March 30th, then it came from Mandy Rynan. And either way, best wishes to Mandy on her new marriage. So this is Mandy's puzzle with a couple of minor edits by me. When Wayne Gretzky, one of the world's greatest hockey players, retired in April 1999, he held 61 world records.

Starting point is 00:26:48 But now he holds 60, having lost two but gained another. How did he manage to gain a world record while in retirement? Oh, what a good puzzle. I have no idea what the answer is, but it's a really good puzzle. All right. Do I need to know anything about the two he... Would that shit have any light on this? No. So just that one. Right. He retired in 1999. He did. And at some point since then, picked up a world

Starting point is 00:27:16 record. Yes. Okay, a world record for a hockey player? Yes. So he's done something that no other hockey player in the world has done, or done, he's the premier person to have accomplished it, whatever it is. Yes. Does that have to do with the duration of something? No. Have the rules changed?

Starting point is 00:27:39 No. What a good puzzle. Right. So how do you gain a world record while in retirement? All right. How do you even attack this? Does this relate to something he did on the ice while he was playing? It does relate to something he did on the ice while playing.

Starting point is 00:28:00 Okay. So in his career or over his career, he established some mark. Some record, mm-hmm. Yes. That at the time... So, yeah, right, he established the mark. Sorry, yeah. I'm being vague because I don't know what I'm talking about.

Starting point is 00:28:17 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That at the time wasn't a record. That's right, that's right. Meaning that someone else surpassed it? Yes. At the time? Yes. Okay, one other person? Yes. All right. That's right. Meaning that someone else surpassed it? Yes. At the time? Yes. Okay. One other person?

Starting point is 00:28:28 Yes. All right. So we're getting somewhere, right? You are. Actually, you're doing really well with this. Then he retires. Yes. And at the time he retires, this other person is still, let's say, ahead of him? Exactly. Yes. So what must have happened then is this other person got removed from the record somehow.

Starting point is 00:28:45 Is that fair to say? I don't know what you mean by removed from the record, but I think you're on the right track. In 99, when he retires, he's set some mark, whatever it is, 200-something. Right. And there's someone else ahead of him. When he retires, that number is set, so it's not going to change. Is that right? Right.

Starting point is 00:29:02 That is correct. So that can only mean that the person who was ahead of him or whatever surpassed him in the books was demoted or removed or invalidated. Yes, something happened to the other person. And I'll tell you

Starting point is 00:29:17 just so we can be more specific, and it doesn't matter much, it's a points per game average. So he finished his career with the second highest points per game average. So he finished his career with the second highest points per game average. In 99. And there was one person ahead of him who had a higher points per game average. Okay. And then that person, is that person still on the books then with a lower number now? Yes. Lower than Gretzky? Yes. So that means that that person was found to have played more games? I'm just thinking some new records came to light where he actually scored fewer points or played more games, so his average came down.

Starting point is 00:29:54 That's not it? Say the question again. I have to listen very carefully to know what you say. Gretzky and this other player both established some average number of points per game. And if Gretzky's now in the lead, that means this other person's average number changed, went down. Yes, that is all true. And that can only mean that if you reckon up the average, that either means that today he's considered to have played more games or to have somehow scored fewer total points. I don't know about considered to have played more games, but—

Starting point is 00:30:29 Well, I guess what I'm asking is, is the way they taught up these numbers, is that what's changed? Not the way they taught up the numbers, no. So if this other person has wound up with fewer average points per game, I just can't think of another way that could have happened unless the underlying numbers. The average is the total number of points divided by the number of games played, right? I believe. So that's the only way you could calculate that. So one of those two numbers has to change. Right.

Starting point is 00:30:58 The number changed, but not because they changed how they're calculating them or anything like that. So he's still, sorry to make this laborious, but I can't think of else to do it. So this guy, whoever this other person is. It's Mario Lemieux. Has played, in 1999, he had X number of points played over Y number of games. Yeah. And is those two numbers, X and Y, haven't changed? No, they did change.

Starting point is 00:31:23 So that's what I'm asking. Yes. And they changed for an unlikely reason. Okay. Not that they got reconsidered, you know, but. A number of points. But did both of them change? Well, I guess they probably did.

Starting point is 00:31:41 It's because Mario Lemieux did something unusual. During his career? Yeah, I mean, he was retired, and Wayne Gretzky was retired, so it all seemed pretty set, right? And then Lemieux did something kind of unusual. Did he reenter the... He did. Oh, really?

Starting point is 00:32:00 He did. He did. Lemieux came out of retirement in 2000 and played through part of the 2005-2006 season, but his points per game average dropped in that time. Which would lower his total. Right? And then Gretzky ended up with the record after all. So he didn't have to do anything.

Starting point is 00:32:17 He didn't have to do anything. That's good. That's a great puzzle. Thanks so much to Mandy for that puzzle. And if anyone else has a puzzle they'd like to have us try, please send it to us at podcast at futilitycloset.com. This podcast is supported entirely by our incredible listeners. If you would like to help support our celebration of the quirky and the curious, you can find a donate button in the support us section of the website at futilitycloset.com.

Starting point is 00:32:45 If you'd like to make a more ongoing donation to our show, you can join our Patreon campaign, where you'll also get outtakes, extra discussions, more lateral thinking puzzles, and updates on Sasha, our distinguished feline supervisor. You can find our Patreon page at patreon.com slash futilitycloset or see our website for the link. At our site, you'll also find over 10,000 bite-sized distractions, the Futility Closet store, information about the Futility Closet books, and the show notes for the podcast, with links and references for the topics we've covered. If you have any questions or comments, you can email us at podcast at futilitycloset.com.

Starting point is 00:33:26 or comments, you can email us at podcast at futilitycloset.com. All the exceptional music that you hear in our shows was written and performed by the incomparable Doug Ross. Thanks for listening, and we'll talk to you next week.

Futility Closet - 238-The Plight of Mary Ellen Wilson

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