Futility Closet - 262-A Modern-Day Thoreau

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to the Futility Closet podcast, forgotten stories from the pages of history. Visit us online to sample more than 10,000 quirky curiosities from acting notation to a weighty legislator. This is episode 262. I'm Greg Ross. And I'm Sharon Ross. In 1968, Richard Prenicky left his career as a heavy equipment operator and took up an entirely new existence. He flew to a remote Alaskan lake, built a log cabin by hand, and began a life of

Starting point is 00:00:38 quiet self-reliance. In today's show, we'll hear Prenicky's reflections on a simple life, lived in harmony with nature. We'll also put a rooster on trial and puzzle over a curious purchase. Richard Prenicky was born in Primrose, Iowa in 1916, and the Depression taught him industry, resourcefulness, and frugality. In his youth, he explored the western U.S. by motorcycle with a friend. He set out with $20 and came back with $10. When World War II broke out, he joined the Navy, where he worked as a carpenter, a heavy equipment operator, and a repairman, and he quietly developed a reputation as a

Starting point is 00:01:19 mechanical genius. All of these traits were fitting him for a dramatic step he didn't know he'd be taking. In 1950, he went to Alaska to investigate starting a cattle ranch with a friend. The ranch didn't pan out, but he worked around the state as a mechanic and a heavy equipment operator, and in 1962, a Navy friend, Spike Carrithers, invited him to spend a few weeks at a cabin he was building in a remote wilderness area at Twin Lakes, 120 miles southwest of Anchorage. There are no roads in that area. They had to fly in over the Alaska Range to a set of lakes carved by glaciers in the open forest. That visit changed his life. The lakes were peaceful and beautiful, and a life there was one of perfect freedom. He turned it over in his mind, and in the spring of

Starting point is 00:02:01 1967, he decided that he would retire at age 50. He told his boss that the wilderness had been calling him for a long time, and that maybe he'd better answer while he was able. He spent that summer at Spike's cabin at Twin Lakes, where he scattered the area, chose a site, and planned a cabin in detail. In late July, he cut logs from a stand of black spruce, hauled them out, peeled them, piled them, and left them to season over the winter. black spruce, hauled them out, peeled them, piled them, and left them to season over the winter. Then he went home to Iowa to see his parents. On the drive back to Alaska, he stopped in Nebraska, bought a felt-tip marker, and printed on the back of his camper in big letters,

Starting point is 00:02:39 destination back and beyond. He wrote later, it was really surprising how many cars pulled up behind and stayed close for a minute or two, even though the way was clear for passing. He would leave the camper with Spike on Kodiak Island, then fly with a bush pilot to Upper Twin Lake, where he would start a new life living entirely by his own resources. Dick Pranicki was so quiet and self-effacing that it's easy to overlook how bold this was. He was proposing to live alone in a remote wilderness, building his own shelter and living off the land in a region where the winter temperatures reached 50 degrees below zero. The nearest settlement was 40 air miles away. He wrote later, I suppose I was here because this was something I had to do. Not just dream about it, but do it. I suppose, too, I was here to test myself. Not that I had never done it before, but this time

Starting point is 00:03:18 it was to be a more thorough and lasting examination. What was I capable of that I didn't know yet? What about my limits? Was I equal to everything this wild land could throw at me? He wrote, the most exciting part of the whole adventure was putting self-reliance on trial. He proposed to build the cabin himself entirely with hand tools, and he was resolved to obey the law, subsisting on fish, berries, and wild greens until hunting season opened. His one link to the outside world would be the bush pilot, who would occasionally fly in with extra supplies. This experiment may be reminding you of Henry David Thoreau, who built a cabin near Walden Pond in Concord, Massachusetts in the 1840s to pursue a life built on simplicity, self-reliance, and reverence for nature. He had written,

Starting point is 00:03:59 I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately, to front only the essential facts of life, to see if I could not learn what it had to teach, and not, when I came to die, discover that I had not lived. Prennicky had read Walden and admired Thoreau greatly. He did not consider himself a philosopher, but if anything, he carried Thoreau's principles even further. Where Thoreau had lived in his cabin for two years, Prennicky would live in his for thirty, without electricity, running water, a telephone,

Starting point is 00:04:25 or any other modern convenience. The building of the cabin shows Prenicky's diligence, industry, and tenacity of purpose. He built it using only hand tools, many of which he fashioned himself. For many of them, he brought in only the steel parts and made the handles with local wood. When those wore out, he replaced them. He dragged the logs up to a quarter mile with a homemade forehead harness and worked 12 hours a day, six days a week, hand-chiseling everything, wore out, he replaced them. He dragged the logs up to a quarter mile with a homemade forehead harness and worked 12 hours a day, six days a week, hand chiseling everything right down to the wooden hinges on the Dutch door. He filmed much of this with a tripod-mounted camera. I'll put a video in the show notes. The finished cabin measured 11 by 15 feet with a big window looking

Starting point is 00:05:00 down to the lake. When he moved in, his total cash outlay for the cabin had been $40, and he kept working industriously, hand-chiseling soup ladles, chairs, even a bunk bed. In time, he added a fireplace, a woodshed, an outhouse, and a storage cache that stood on nine-foot poles to keep it out of the reach of bears, and he made a gravel path from the cabin to the lake shore. Apart from giving him a place to live, doing this work gave him a feeling of accomplishment that he hadn't felt in the ordinary world. On August 13th, he wrote in his journal, This evening I sat on my driftwood pile admiring my cabin, pale blue wood smoke rising up through the dark boughs of the spruce and beyond, looming huge and majestic, the jagged peak of Crag Mountain. It was a good feeling just sitting and reflecting, a proud inner feeling of something I

Starting point is 00:05:43 had created with my own hands. I don't think I have ever accomplished anything as satisfying in my entire life. He wrote later, I do think a man has missed a very deep feeling of satisfaction if he has never created or at least completed something with his own two hands. We have grown accustomed to work on pieces of things instead of holes. It is a way of life with us now. The emphasis is on teamwork. I believe this trend bears much of the blame for the loss of pride in one's work, the kind of pride the old craftsman felt when he started a job and finished it and stood back and admired it. How does a man on an assembly line feel any pride in the final product that rolls out at the other end? In the months that followed, he began to explore the surrounding country.

Starting point is 00:06:21 In his younger years, he'd been a hunter, but here on the lake, his views began to change. Killing a large animal would yield more meat than one man could eat. In his writings, he comes to regard the local wildlife as companions, fellow residents of the wilderness. In the end, he hunted game only twice, and only in the first year. After that, he salvaged meat that had been left behind by wolves or by trophy hunters. After scavenging the remains of one sheep left by a hunter, he wrote in his journal, I prepared the ribs for supper. They were flavorful, but I was sure of one thing.

Starting point is 00:06:51 The big ram they came from had roamed the mountains for a long time. In fact, he perpetually found himself cleaning up after hunters, removing not just animal carcasses, but garbage they left in the wilderness. He wrote, Why men come into this big, clean country and leave it littered the way they do, I will never know. They claim to love the great outdoors, but they don't have respect for it. Beer cans, bottles, and cartons were scattered all over the place. Look at the sharp edges of the mountains in the crisp clean air and listen to the creek pouring water you can drink over the stones. Then look around and see all this junk. It's enough to turn

Starting point is 00:07:22 a man's stomach. The summer had gone well, but as the weather turned colder, anyone else might have felt some qualms about remaining so far from help in such unforgiving circumstances. At the height of winter, there were 28 inches of snow on the ground, and the ice on the lake was three feet thick. But Prenicky's self-reliance carried him safely through. He passed the coldest months secure in his cabin, admiring the change of seasons. There he spent a lot of his time writing, and his writings echo Thoreau, praising a simple life immersed in nature. After a year on the lake, Prenicky wrote, I have found that some of the simplest things have given me the most pleasure.

Starting point is 00:07:56 They didn't cost me a lot of money, either. They just worked on my senses. Did you ever pick very large blueberries after a summer rain, walk through a grove of cottonwoods open like a park, and see the blue sky beyond the shimmering gold of the leaves. Pull on dry woolen socks after you've peeled off the wet ones. Come in out of the sub-zero and shiver yourself warm in front of a wood fire. The world is full of such things. He added,

Starting point is 00:08:19 I've seen a lot of sights from this old spruce chunk and have thought a lot of thoughts. The more I think about it, the better off I think I am. The crime rate here is close to zero. I forget what it is like to be sick or have a cold. I don't have bills coming in every month to pay for things I really don't need. My legs and canoe provide my transportation. They take me as far as I care to go. In Walden, Thoreau had written, most of the luxuries and many of the so-called comforts of life are not only not indispensable, but positive hindrances to the elevation of mankind. Pranicki added, needs, I guess that is what bothers so many folks. They keep expanding their needs until they are dependent on too many things and too many other people. I wonder how many things in the average American

Starting point is 00:08:59 home could be eliminated if the question were asked, must I really have this? I guess most of the extras are chalked up to comfort or saving time. Funny thing about comfort, one man's comfort is another man's misery. Most people don't work hard enough physically anymore, and comfort is not easy to find. It is surprising how comfortable a hard bunk can be after you come down off a mountain. As the month lengthened into years, people sometimes asked if it was lonely living in the wilderness. He told them he was too busy to be lonely, and ironically, he had amassed an enormous number of friends. He welcomed visitors to the lake, and they always found him clean-shaven and his little compound spruce and well-kept. He would regularly wash even the gravel that he spread on the cabin's floor.

Starting point is 00:09:39 He would reply to anyone who wrote to him, and he was able to stay reasonably well-informed by reading magazines and newspaper clippings sent by friends and family. As word spread of what he was doing, some admirers began to make a pilgrimage to see him. Some of them made it an annual event. They found him writing, cooking, cutting wood, or working on the cabin and outbuildings. He came to know the surrounding country intimately well and would mark his birthday, the summer solstice, and New Year's Day with hikes to his favorite places. One year he wore a pedometer that registered 3,086 miles. But he never locked the cabin behind him, and he always left a map on the table with a pushpin

Starting point is 00:10:14 that showed his destination so that any visitors would know where he'd gone. He would say, mountains are a man's best friend if he only knew it. You hike and climb every day and you don't grow old. He was not physically large. He stood five foot seven and weighed 150 pounds. But his friends said he had an enormous constructive energy. He wrote, I enjoy working for my heat. I don't just press a button or twist a thermostat dial. I use the big crosscut saw and the axe. And while I'm getting my heat supply, I'm working up an appetite that makes simple food just as appealing as anything a French chef could create. I've seen grown men pick at food. They can't be hungry in the first place, or maybe their food has been too fancy, and with all the choices they've had, they don't really

Starting point is 00:10:53 know what they enjoy anymore. At the end of each day, it was enough for him to relax in a beach chair on the lakeshore, where, he said, the view changed every 15 minutes. He made this life look easy, but it wouldn't have been possible without his special gifts. People who knew him praised his intelligence, adaptability, and industry, and his resourcefulness became legendary. Occasionally, he would help park personnel with their work, and one afternoon, he was counting caribou calves with a wildlife biologist named Will Troyer. While they were working, the inseam of Prenicky's pants separated along its whole length, leaving it flapping along his leg.

Starting point is 00:11:26 When Troyer asked him what he was going to do, Prenicky handed his clipboard to him and said, I'm going to go visit a seamstress, and he set off toward the lake. After an hour, he came back with his pants neatly sewn up. Troyer asked how he'd done it, and Prenicky said that he'd gone to the creeks at the head of the lake where he knew that sport fishermen fished during the summer. He knew that when a fisherman got a snag in his line, he would just cut it off and throw it away. So he searched the area and found some monofilament fishing line and a discarded beer can. He used his knife to cut a wedge-shaped piece of metal from the can, rolled that into the shape of

Starting point is 00:11:57 a needle, and used the knife to drill an eye through the needle's wider end. Then he threaded the needle with the fishing line and sewed up his pants. Altogether, Prenicky spent 30 years of happy self-reliance at Twin Lakes, working, writing, tending the cabin, and welcoming visitors. He seldom ventured back to civilization. When he finally left the lake for good in 1998, at age 82, he donated his letters and journals to the National Park Service. They weighed 78 pounds. He had filled 250 steno pads with his thoughts, many of which were eventually published in three edited volumes. Richard Prenicky lived with his brother in California for several years and finally died in 2003 at age 86. His handmade cabin still overlooks Upper Twin Lake. It was added to the National Register of Historic Places

Starting point is 00:12:42 in 2007. The area is now part of the Lake Clark National Park and Preserve, which encloses 4 million acres of Alaskan wilderness. There are still no roads to get there, but 400 people a year hike and fly in to visit the site of Prenicky's simple life. Some of them break down in tears to see the dwelling that has become so familiar to them through Prenicky's writings. One veteran told a guide that while he'd been posted in Iraq, he had tried to find some inner peace by repeatedly watching a movie about Prenicky. He'd promised himself to visit the lake if he ever made it out. The cabin is maintained

Starting point is 00:13:13 as Prenicky had left it. On the wall, below two well-worn snowshoes, is a sign that he made himself. Is it proper that the wilderness and its creatures should suffer because we came? Prenicky donated the cabin in the same spirit that he did everything else. He was pleased to share what he had with others. In September 1969, after his first two years on the lake, he left to spend the winter with his father. He left a note on the table. It read, This cabin has been my home for the past sixteen months, and it is with regret that I leave it for a time. I think it would be safe to say that I have hiked thousands of miles in my total of two years at Twin Lakes. In the past 16 months alone, I have exposed more than 3,000 feet of 8mm movie film

Starting point is 00:13:54 and many rolls of 35mm film on the wildlife and the scenery of the area, plus the building of my cabin, woodshed, and cache. In my travels, I have picked up and disposed of much litter left by others. Many fail to show respect which the area deserves. You didn't find a padlock on my door, for I feel that a cabin in the wilderness should be open to those who need shelter. My charge for the use of it is reasonable, I think, although some, no doubt, will be unable to afford what I ask, and that is, take care of it as if you had carved it out with hand tools as I did. If when you leave your conscience is clear, then you have paid the full amount. This is beautiful country. It is even

Starting point is 00:14:31 more beautiful when the animals are left alive. Thank you for your in the U.S. with rather odd names, such as Dick Shooter, Slick Poo, and Beer Bottle Crossing in Idaho. Jesse Onlin wrote, Canada is full of places with strange names. You can easily find lists of dozens of them, but here are a few highlights. And first on Jesse's list was San Luis du Ha Ha, a town in Quebec. It's spelled with an exclamation point after each ha, which has earned it a Guinness World Record for the most exclamation marks in a town name.

Starting point is 00:15:24 Apparently, there are other towns with one exclamation point, but having two is truly exceptional. We've talked in a couple of episodes about computer programs having trouble handling names or addresses that are atypical in any way, so I was wondering how they would handle a town that is several hyphenated words and multiple exclamation points. hyphenated words, and multiple exclamation points. The town's population is about 1,400, so I know it's a long shot, but if anyone listening is from San Luis do ha ha, please let us know how computer forms handle your town's name. That's kind of a pleasant name, though, you know? You could do worse than that. Ha ha! Also on Jesse's list is another place that includes hyphens but no exclamation points, and that's Head Smashed In Buffalo Jump in Alberta.

Starting point is 00:16:10 This is now a UNESCO World Heritage Site, and I got to learn that a buffalo jump is a cliff formation that Native Americans used to drive buffalo over as a hunting tactic. So that one's not quite as pleasant. No. There's also Punky Doodle's Corners, Ontario, which according to Wikipedia is known for its strange name and frequent sign theft. The name's origin is somewhat disputed with stories that it comes from a local innkeeper that used to sing Yankee Doodle, which was heard as Punky Doodle by the tavern guests, or that it's related to a Victorian word for frittering away time, or that it

Starting point is 00:16:45 was a nickname given to a lazy pumpkin farmer by his annoyed wife. You can take your pick there, but I don't recommend stealing their signs. That last one is so specific. A pumpkin farmer, specifically. Seems like it's more likely. Other places on Jesse's list were Happy Adventure, Newfoundland, which for such a nice name only has a population of about 200. Payne Court, Ontario, about which Jesse said, this means shortbread in French, which is only slightly less strange. And Wikipedia does claim that the name comes from the small loaves of bread that were all that the impoverished parishioners could afford to offer to Roman Catholic missionaries.

Starting point is 00:17:24 all that the impoverished parishioners could afford to offer to Roman Catholic missionaries. And Swastika, Ontario, a small community which was named pre-Nazi era for the Swastika gold mine in 1907, which was named after a symbol for good luck. Obviously, that symbol has come to have other meanings since then, which I can imagine might sometimes cause some problems for the residents there. I'm actually surprised that they haven't renamed the place. Jesse says that he's from Kitchener, Ontario, and notes that it was formerly Berlin, then renamed after Lord Kitchener during World War I for political reasons. I would have thought there might be a similar motivation to rename Swastika. Yeah, maybe there's some reason they held on to it.

Starting point is 00:18:00 Don't know. And there was one other place that Jesse sent that I wasn't sure would be quite family friendly. So I decided not to read it here. But you can check the show notes for a link to its Wikipedia page if you're interested. It's in Newfoundland and Labrador. Way back in 2014, Greg did a story on how for centuries animals were given criminal trials if they were accused of having misbehaved. Peter Salstrom wrote,

Starting point is 00:18:24 were given criminal trials if they were accused of having misbehaved. Peter Salstrom wrote, Greg, Sharon, Sasha, I've been slowly working my way through the early episodes of Futility Closet from before I had the good sense to subscribe. I just finished listening to episode 31, Pigs on Trial, and told my father-in-law about it yesterday. Later that afternoon, he told me about this article, Maurice the rooster in dock in divisive French trial. And Peter sent an article from CNN from July about how a rooster named Maurice was on trial for being too noisy. Maurice lives in the village of Saint-Pierre-de-Léon with his owner Corinne Fessot, two of whose neighbors started complaining about Maurice's crowing two years ago. This case has gained a

Starting point is 00:19:05 lot of attention in France and is seen as symbolizing the country's urban versus rural divide, as a city-dwelling couple want to be able to sleep in peace in their vacation home, while others feel that the rooster, one of France's national symbols, is a natural part of rural life. The mayor of Saint-Pierre-de-Oléon told CNN that he sees the case as an example of deeper issues, saying, The problem is that we no longer tolerate each other. And he added that traditional sounds of the countryside should be protected. He's quoted in the New York Times as saying, One of these traditions is to have farm animals.

Starting point is 00:19:45 If you come to Oleone, you have to accept what's here. And the Telegraph says that the mayor has issued a municipal decree proclaiming the need to preserve the rural character of the village. The lawyer for the plaintiffs, though, insists that this isn't a conflict between city and country dwellers and that his clients don't mind Maurice's crowing. They just want some quiet in the early morning so they can sleep. He is quoted in the Telegraph as saying, this is noise nuisance. The cockerel, the dog, the car horn, music, it is a case of noise. A mediator suggested maybe sending Maurice away while the couple were at their vacation home,

Starting point is 00:20:18 but Fasso won't be separated from her rooster, to whom she seems to be quite attached. She actually has seemed to be rather concerned that all the stress and fuss has been having a negative effect on Maurice. Faisal appeared in court on Maurice's behalf as he's been tired out from all the stress. In court pleadings, the lawyer for Faisal and Maurice described Maurice's crowing as discreet and said that the rooster has perceived this disquiet, as for the past several months, he has only rarely sung. Faisal sees herself as fighting to protect all the roosters in France. The Telegraph reports that almost 160,000 people have signed petitions

Starting point is 00:20:55 supporting Maurice and his right to crow, and other rooster owners came to the trial, some bringing their roosters with them. And I want to be clear that the complainants in this case can sue for financial damages or ask to have Maurice moved, but Maurice's life is not actually at stake here, unlike some of the earlier animal trials. A verdict in the case is expected next month. I wonder if they win, if that sets some precedent and other people can press the same suit against other roosters. That seems like it would be really...

Starting point is 00:21:22 Right. That's why other rooster owners came to the trial, because they're kind of concerned about the precedent that this might set. Yeah, I mean, how many roosters are there in France? That must just be a really momentous decision, really. Yeah. And as some of you may be aware, the UK got a new prime minister last month, Boris Johnson. This is a fact that people might have various thoughts about, but the most important aspect of that news here at Futility Closet was obviously, what does that mean for Larry, the feline resident of Number 10 Downing Street? Luckily for us, as we are somewhat less plugged into all the British news of the day, some of our listeners are on top of these truly important issues. Before the vote had taken place

Starting point is 00:22:04 last month, Andy Washington sent a link to an article that sought to allay people's fears about the possible consequences of the upcoming election by making it clear that whether Boris Johnson or Jeremy Hunt won, Larry's position was secure, according to both candidates' teams. So that was reassuring. And then a couple of our listeners let us know that on August 8th, Johnson tweeted, a very happy International Cat Day to our chief mouser, Larry, along with a photo of Larry on Johnson's desk.

Starting point is 00:22:32 That was also reassuring to see because, and I don't want to get too political here, but there have been rumors that Johnson is talking about getting a dog. Metro reports that the unofficial Larry the Cat Twitter account posted in response to the rumors, Hell no! Larry's Twitter feed also notes that he's now been in office for longer than the current leader of any of the UK's political parties. So good for him. It's a bit weird, though, to consider that the cat goes with the office. It's kind of like if you take a new job with a company and they say, oh, that job comes with a parakeet or a rabbit and you'll

Starting point is 00:23:09 be responsible for it. Apparently in England, if you want to be prime minister, you inherit a cat. I never thought about that, but you're right. And I will admit that we didn't do anything for International Cat Day here. It turns out that the U.S. also has a National Cat Day on October 29th, and we generally skip that too. Our chief mouser here has quite enough of a sense of her own importance, and we don't really want to do anything to encourage it further. Thanks so much to everyone who writes to us. We really appreciate hearing your updates, comments, and feedback. So if you have any to send, please send them to podcast at futilitycloset.com.

Starting point is 00:23:48 And I still appreciate pronunciation help. It's Greg's turn to try to solve a lateral thinking puzzle. I'm going to give him a strange sounding situation, and we're going to see if he can work out what's going on, asking yes or no questions. I adapted this puzzle from one that I saw in Edward J. Harshman's Fantastic Lateral Thinking Puzzles. Jill and Mac both made a similar purchase. Several months later, Jill has not received anything for the money she paid, while Mac has received something of considerable value, worth several times

Starting point is 00:24:25 more than the amount he paid. But Jill is quite content with the situation and feels herself to be actually better off than Mac. What had they bought? Wow. They both bought the same thing? Yes. Okay.

Starting point is 00:24:37 They're human beings. Yes. By buying, we mean what I think of as buying. Yes. Does this involve gambling, would you say? No. Or investing? In other words, would you, well, answer that question.

Starting point is 00:24:51 I don't think so. I mean, it's not that he got a better return than she did on the same thing somehow. I don't think you'd say that. You wouldn't say that. Okay, you say they both bought the same thing. But what he bought had a higher value after a certain period of time? Is that how you put it? No.

Starting point is 00:25:08 Several months later, Jill has not received anything for the money she paid, while Mac has received something of considerable value. So they both paid money for something and received... He's received something she hadn't? Would you say that? Correct. So she hasn't received anything at all? Yes. It's not that she got something that had little value? Right.? Would you say that? Correct. So she hasn't received anything at all? Yes. It's not that she got something that had little value.

Starting point is 00:25:28 Right. You wouldn't say that? I wouldn't say that. They both paid money. Yes. He received something that was, hmm. But she considered herself better off than she considered him. Yes.

Starting point is 00:25:41 All right. Is this a physical, tangible object? No. Is it a service? I'm not sure. I don't think so. Okay. That's a very entertaining look on your face.

Starting point is 00:25:58 Yeah. I'm not sure how you categorize this, and I can't ask you, so. But he received it and she hadn't you would say yeah well I know I wouldn't say that I wouldn't really say that she'd received nothing and he'd received something that's correct I would say that I'll agree to that all right would it behoove me to try to figure out what this what this thing is or would be better off to guess why she thinks she's better off uh maybe you can't tell me that. Either, both, together, I don't know.

Starting point is 00:26:28 Because guessing objects or things can be... Yes, but I said it's not an object or a thing. Yeah, but you also said it's not a service. I guess it would depend how you define service. I mean, because service can be defined pretty broadly in some ways. I don't know. Did this whole business involve other people besides those two? Not directly.

Starting point is 00:26:51 I'm thinking like a chain letter or something or those, you know, that have sort of a multiplying effect. Oh, yeah. No. Not that sort of thing. I mean, you'd have to say there's other people involved because if you purchase something, you're purchasing it from human beings. But, you know, but nothing more direct than that. Okay. I suppose this doesn't matter.

Starting point is 00:27:08 Did they both buy what they bought from the same source? They may or may not have. It doesn't matter. Okay. Well, it's hard to go about guessing something that's not an object or a service or an investment. I think investment might be the closest. She considers herself better off than him. Is that because she thinks he's had some misfortune that he doesn't recognize?

Starting point is 00:27:33 Because she's sort of flat even, right? She's where she was when she started. No, because she's paid money. All right. But she considers herself... Better off. Better off than him? Yes.

Starting point is 00:27:47 Because she thinks he sustained a greater loss than she has. She's out the price of whatever she paid. Yes. But that's it. Yes. Does she think she's better off than him because he's somehow incurred a greater loss even than that? I would say yes, in general, to that. Because he's taken possession of this thing, whatever it is?

Starting point is 00:28:09 Not because of that. She doesn't consider that a misfortune, say. She doesn't consider what he received back to be a misfortune. Correct. Is she thinking of the future? No. When she thinks that? No.

Starting point is 00:28:24 So she paid money and she hasn't got anything for it. Does she expect to get something still? I think she's probably hoping she won't. If she received what she saw him receive, she'd consider that a bad outcome? She would consider that a bad outcome had occurred. If she were in a position to receive what Mac had received. Are their genders important? No.

Starting point is 00:28:49 Is the time period important? No. Why do I want to ask, does this have to do with illness or disease or something, some kind of actual physical harm? No. But? But that's kind of on the right track. So when Mac, his name's Mac, received this thing or whatever it

Starting point is 00:29:08 was, that had some effect on him physically, would you say? No, no. Did it endanger him somehow? No, no, no, no, no. I'm trying to work out why she thinks she's better off if he got something valuable. Yes, she, yes. And she knows that. Yes. Yes. And I said that if she were to receive something similar, then something bad would have. Happened. Had to have happened to her. To her.

Starting point is 00:29:33 Yeah. Okay. And that's why she doesn't want to receive something similar. Okay. So the bad, let's say that happened. Let's say she did get it. Okay. And this bad outcome, consequence did happen to her. You've got the timing wrong of that.

Starting point is 00:29:49 She ordered something, paid for it. I wouldn't say she ordered something. She purchased something. She purchased something. Okay, she purchased something. Yes. And let's say she did receive it. Okay.

Starting point is 00:30:01 Can we say that? Sure. And it sounds like she would consider herself worse off for receiving it. Yes. Is that because of some, it wouldn't be physical harm that occurred that came to her, right? Right. Would it be some damage to her, I don't know, possessions or home or car or house or something? Yes.

Starting point is 00:30:19 And that's why she'd feel worse off? Yes. So is it that her circumstances are different from Max? Yes. In other words, I don't know why I'm saying that. She lives in like a smaller house or something, and so she wouldn't be able to accept this as well as he could? No. I don't quite know what I'm asking, but you see what I mean?

Starting point is 00:30:35 Her circumstances are different than Max, and she's happy about that. She's happy about that today, but if she receives what she purchased tomorrow, she'll be unhappy. Yes. So I'm asking, I'm trying to work out, is that because, it must be, because her physical circumstances wherever she lives, I guess, are different from Max. So she couldn't take delivery of whatever this thing is. Oh, no, no, no, no, that's not correct. Remember, it's not an object or anything. No, but I have to call it something.

Starting point is 00:31:08 Sure, sure, sure. Investment was the closest when you were trying to categorize it. Okay. So they both paid money hoping to get some return or benefit for that. Hoping to not, but... Insurance. Yes. They both bought... Oh, and he had some misfortune and got a big payout.

Starting point is 00:31:31 And she's glad she didn't break her leg or whatever. He lost most of his possessions in a big fire. And nothing important has happened to her. So she's feeling better off. That's a perfectly valid puzzle. We can always use more lateral thinking puzzles. So please send any that you have that you'd like us to try to podcast at futilitycloset.com. Futility Closet would not still be here if it weren't for the generous support of our listeners.

Starting point is 00:31:57 If you would like to help support our celebration of the quirky and the curious, please check out our Patreon page at patreon.com slash futility closet, or see the support a section of the website at futilitycloset.com. If you become one of our phenomenal patrons, you'll also get access to more information on some of the stories, extralateral thinking puzzles, outtakes, and updates on Sasha, the not at all spoiled chief mouser for the podcast. At our website, you can also graze through over 10,000 exceptional esoterica, browse the Futility Closet store, learn about the Futility Closet books, and see the show notes for the podcast, with links and

Starting point is 00:32:36 references for the topics we've covered. If you have any questions or comments, you can email either us or Sasha at podcast at futilitycloset.com. All the exceptional music in our show was written and performed by Doug Ross. Thanks for listening, and we'll talk to you next week.

Futility Closet - 262-A Modern-Day Thoreau

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