Futility Closet - 343-Operation Cowboy

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to the Futility Closet podcast, forgotten stories from the pages of history. Visit us online to sample more than 11,000 quirky curiosities from Martian marriages to an impossible ledge. This is episode 343. I'm Greg Ross. And I'm Sharon Ross. In April 1945, a group of American soldiers learned that hundreds of Lipitsaner horses were being held on a farm in western Czechoslovakia and set out to rescue them before the Red Army could reach them. In today's show, we'll tell the story

Starting point is 00:00:40 of Operation Cowboy, one of the strangest episodes of World War II. We'll also learn about an NBA brawl and puzzle over a technology's link to cancer deaths. In April 1945, a Swiss-American intelligence officer named Ferdinand Schperl captured a group of German operatives at a hunting lodge near the border between Germany and Czechoslovakia. They'd been stranded in the field with documents that they couldn't transport back to Berlin. Inside the headquarters were enough documents to fill 12 trucks, and among them, curiously, were photos of horses, Arabs, thoroughbreds, and Lipetsaners. The group's leader, a German colonel named Walter Holters,

Starting point is 00:01:25 told Schperl about a small Czech town called Hostau, east of the German border. It contained a thousand people, a thousand-year-old castle, and a large horse farm. The castle and the farm had passed to the Nazis after Germany had acquired the Sudetenland in 1938. The farm, Holters said, contained the finest collection of horses in the world, including a rare collection of Lippizaners, the so-called Dancing White Horses of Austria, an emblem of sovereignty among European monarchs and the best classical dressage horses in the world. The stallions were trained at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, using traditional methods that had been refined over centuries. Why were the Nazis collecting horses and hiding

Starting point is 00:02:05 them on a remote farm? This had been the project of the chief equerry within the Reich, 65-year-old Gustav Rau. Rau had identified the Lipitzhahner as the purest horse in Europe and had hoped to use it as the base bloodstock for a new, genetically superior horse. He had established a stud farm in Hostau and stocked its stables with 250 white Lipitzaners that had been confiscated from across Europe, including the breeding mares from the Austrian riding school. To mate with the mares, Rau had collected top racing stallions and thoroughbreds. The plan was to strengthen the breed and export it throughout the Reich. But now the war was nearing its end, and the breeding program had been stopped. Rau had left Hostau in the hands of professional army officers, with the horses attended by two veterinarians and about 150 allied prisoners of war. With the mares in Czechoslovakia and the stallions in Austria, the future of the Lipitsaner

Starting point is 00:02:55 breed was now in danger. Worse, Czechoslovakia had been promised to the Soviets after the war, and the approaching Red Army was famously brutal. Just weeks earlier, Soviet tanks had intercepted a German convoy with 22 Lipitsaners in its trucks. Finding the animals too spirited to control, the Russians had slaughtered 18 of them, then harnessed the rest to ammunition carts and driven them toward Vienna. There were rumors that the Red Army might even kill horses for food if its rations ran low. When Schperl heard all this, he turned to a friend who knew horses well, Colonel Charles Reed, commander of the 2nd Cavalry Group, which, as it happened, was the closest American unit to Hostow. Schperl called Reed at his headquarters and told him about

Starting point is 00:03:36 Holters and the three men met for breakfast. Holters and Reed bonded over horses and, Reed said later, we mutually agreed that these fine animals should not fall into communist hands and the prisoners should be rescued. Reed radioed George Patton, commander of the Third Army, and asked his permission to organize a rescue mission. Patton was said to love horses more than he loved most human beings. He'd competed in the modern pentathlon in the 1912 Olympics, served in the cavalry, and participated in steeplechases and fox hunts throughout his life. There are two different accounts of Patton's answer. One is that he said, get them, make it fast. The other is that he gave no answer either way, in effect looking the other

Starting point is 00:04:14 way to maintain deniability if the mission should fail. Either way, Reed understood that he could go after the horses, and the mission went ahead with the name Operation Cowboy. The first step was to contact the farm. Holters dispatched a note to Hubert Rudofsky, the colonel in charge there. It said, I send you these lines with a request immediately to send one of your officers, authorized by me, here to discuss the transfer of the horses to Bavaria as fast as possible. It would be a great shame if these unique animals fell into the hands of the Bolsheviks. I have the opportunity to safely escort you and the horses through the lines. This matter needs, however, your immediate response. Nobody should learn anything about this except you, because the threat of betrayal is everywhere, signed Lieutenant Colonel Holters. He didn't

Starting point is 00:04:58 say that he was working with the Americans, possibly because he feared that would ruin the deal. Rudofsky discussed the plan with his veterinarians, Rudolf Lessing and Wolfgang Kroll. Rudofsky had been ordered to stay with the farm, so he would be disobeying direct orders if he responded to this overture. And it was the middle of foaling season. Many of the mares were pregnant, and others had foals at their feet. They couldn't march miles to safety. But Lessing and Kroll said they ought at least to see what Holters had in mind,

Starting point is 00:05:24 and Rudofsky agreed. Their first priority was the safety of the horses. Rudofsky told Lessing to go to the proposed meeting, and the veterinarian left Hostow early that afternoon on a motorcycle. When he arrived, he was shocked to find that the meeting place was in enemy territory, and that Holters was apparently working with the U.S. 2nd Cavalry. But he couldn't go back empty-handed, and he still felt something had to be done for the horses. At a farmhouse, Charles Reed greeted Lessing and invited him to sit down to dinner, which settled Lessing's nerves somewhat. He said later, the whole atmosphere betrayed objectivity, benevolence, and understanding, so much so that I actually was not aware of facing an enemy. Holters was not there. He had gone to London for debriefing. But as they ate, Lessing and Reed shared their love of horses,

Starting point is 00:06:07 and at length they began to plan how to get the Libetsoners out of Hostow. This was a tricky task. Reed didn't want to venture into Czechoslovakia, but the Germans lacked the manpower to march hundreds of horses to the American lines. They agreed that Reed would send one of his best lieutenants back to Hostow with Lessing to negotiate directly with Rudovsky. The man he chose to go was Tom Stewart, a 29-year-old captain who had landed at Normandy the year before. As Stewart was preparing to venture alone into enemy territory in the middle of the night, Colonel Tom Hargis told him, you don't have to go in if you don't want to.

Starting point is 00:06:39 Stewart said later, I would have preferred something more encouraging. But you know, people ask me all the time why I did it, and after all these years, I still don't know. They gave him a note identifying him as an emissary to Rudovsky, and by moonlight, he and Lessing made their way back to Hostow. When they reached it at two in the morning, a new shock awaited them. Only hours after Lessing had departed, a group of Wehrmacht soldiers had arrived and announced that they were making the town their temporary headquarters. Their commander, General Kurt Schulze, said that he'd been ordered to defend the area from the Red Army, and that he was now in charge of the farm and its inhabitants. This changed everything and might have ended the whole undertaking, but here Rudolf Lessing decided to make a stand. He told Stuart to wait in his

Starting point is 00:07:19 quarters while he spoke to his superior officers. Then he confronted successively Rudolfsky, Schulze, and even the Corps commander, Lieutenant General Karl Weisenberger, arguing that they had too few resources, that trying to defend the farm might lead to the death of the horses, and that the Americans had offered to evacuate them instead. Lessing was only a veterinarian. He had technically committed treason a few hours earlier by talking to the Americans,

Starting point is 00:07:42 and now he was committing it again by arguing that it was too late to win the war and that his first duty was to save the horses. But he won them all over. In the end, Weisenberger told him, all right, do what you should, Captain. Send the American captain back to this Colonel Reed and let him tell him to come in God's name and occupy the stud. We will not shoot. Lessing returned to Hostau, where Schulze gave Stuart a safe conduct pass, and by the evening of April 27th, Stuart had returned to the American lines. With that, the diplomatic half of the rescue mission was over. The Wehrmacht command in Hostau had agreed that American troops could go to the stud farm, gather the horses, and lead them to safety inside Germany. But Schulze didn't control the SS, which was still abroad in the country and

Starting point is 00:08:25 might oppose them. The 2nd Cavalry would have to travel to the farm, defend themselves if attacked, arrange to transport the POWs and the horses, and conduct them all safely back across the border. The march began early the next morning. The total force would amount to 325 men, and they had to travel about 18 miles to Hostau. As the American forces massed, their artillery rained shells along the border, but there was no reply from German artillery. A task force of 70 troops, backed by two light tanks and two assault guns, pushed up the road through the forest. They faced some brief gunfire near Biele nad Radbuzu, but quickly drove off the attackers. It wasn't clear whether the SS were biding their time or had simply left.

Starting point is 00:09:05 When the vanguard of the task force reached the town of Hostau, they were greeted by residents, music, and 300 famished POWs. Schulze had departed with some of his troops, apparently unwilling to surrender, and the German soldiers who remained presented arms and lowered their flag, which was replaced with the stars and stripes. At the farm, Rudovsky had taken down his portrait of Hitler and ordered white sheets hung from the windows. Reed chose a nearby castle for his headquarters and put 50 German prisoners in its dungeon and the rest in the basements of six local homes. Rudovsky told him there were 589 horses stabled at Hostau, including 247 Libetsaners. Of the prisoners, most of the Americans, British, and French were sent to the rear, but Poles, Russians, and Serbs couldn't be returned to their own nations, and many chose to stay and

Starting point is 00:09:49 help. All was quiet on April 28th and 29th, but then most of the 2nd Cavalry was called away to help capture the Eisenstein Pass, leaving only 164 men to secure the entire town of Hostau and guard the stud and two outlying horse farms, an island of allies in a sea of German troops connected to their own lines by a single poorly protected road. Stuart knew he needed more men, so he armed some of the released Allied POWs, a mix of Poles, British, French, and Americans, who were given the name Stuart's Foreign Legion. To them, he added a body of Russian Cossacks who had arrived from Poland, victims of Stalin's oppression who now hoped to surrender to the Western Allies. This still wasn't enough, so Stuart took the unusual step of asking the German colonel

Starting point is 00:10:32 for some of his own men to join in the defense, agreeing to rearm them if they pledged to serve under U.S. authority. Many of them were happy to do so. They had no love for the Nazis and would rather throw in their lot with the Americans than face the oncoming Soviets. This, by the way, is one of only two instances in the war when American and German soldiers fought side by side against a common enemy at the company level or above. The other was the battle for Kassel-Ite, which we described in episode 128. As it happened, the Foreign Legion was assembled just in time, because word soon came that the Waffen-SS were converging on Hostau to

Starting point is 00:11:04 capture the Americans and horses. At daybreak on April 30th, German soldiers attacked the town of Hostau with machine guns and rifles. Fortunately, they were badly trained and outgunned, and after five hours of fighting, they pulled back with heavy losses, leaving more than 100 prisoners. But that was only a temporary victory. It was still imperative that the Americans get away quickly, as the Red Army was moving ever closer. Stuart could transport the vulnerable mares on trucks, but the rest of the horses would have to march, and Stuart appealed to the Germans, Poles, and Cossacks for experienced riders to accompany the herds. On May 11th, they received reports that tanks had been heard moving toward their position from the east. They had hoped to

Starting point is 00:11:42 depart on the following day, and it looked unlikely that things would be ready even then. The tanks were confirmed to be Soviet T-34s, and the danger was mounting that they would press through Hostow and reach the farm before Reed's motley group could escape with the horses. But at last, on May 12th, they were ready. The riders mounted the Libetsoners, and the party set out through the Bohemian forest, the pregnant mares and the young foals on trucks and the rest driven in small herd, flanked by riders to keep them in formation. When Czechs and Sudeten Germans asked to join them, Lessing declared them staff members of the farm so they could come along. The procession went well until they reached the border, where they were stopped by three Czech partisans at a customs house. They insisted that the horses

Starting point is 00:12:24 were Czech national property and could not leave the country. This looked like a standoff until first Lieutenant Bill Quinlevin called a light tank forward and ordered it to point its gun at the trio. At this, they changed their minds, and the Lippitz honors crossed into Germany. Within three days, the party had reached Mansbach, and on May 18th and 25th, the Lippitz honors made the final leg of their journey to Sankt Martin in Austria, where the head of the Spanish riding school received 215 mares to reunite with his stallions. Not all of the Lipitzaners belonged to the school, though. Charles Reed was able to take a pair of mares back to Virginia, Patton took a stallion,

Starting point is 00:13:00 and other horses were divided between Italy and Yugoslavia. Russia got nothing. All of this unfolded at the very end of the war, and in the context of that struggle, it had little meaning. But to many of the men who participated, that was almost the point. Lieutenant Lewis Holtz said, We thought we had a chance to save a sliver of culture for the rest of the world. We sensed the end was in sight, and we were in a frame of mind to give credence to beauty once again.

Starting point is 00:13:25 Charles Reed said, we were so tired of death and destruction. We wanted to do something beautiful. The success of their effort is still resounding today. At the end of the war, the International Lipizzano Registry contained 230 horses. Today, it contains more than 10,000. Futility Closet is supported entirely by our amazing listeners. We want to thank everyone who helps us to be able to keep making the show. And this week, we're sending out a special thank you to William Phillips, our newest super patron. If you would like to join William and all our other wonderful patrons who help support the show, you can check out our Patreon campaign at patreon.com slash futility closet. Besides supporting us, if you become a patron, you'll get access to bonus content, such as extra discussions on some of the stories,

Starting point is 00:14:25 more lateral thinking puzzles, outtakes and peeks behind the scenes of the show. And thanks again to everyone who helps support Futility Closet. We wouldn't still be here without you. We got a number of follow-ups to our most recent discussion on injuries at sporting events from episode 336. One of the stories in that episode was about how in 1957, Alice Roth, a spectator at a baseball game, was hit in the face with a foul ball batted by Richie Ashburn of the Phillies, and while she was being carried out of the stadium on a stretcher, she was hit by another Ashburn foul ball, which broke a bone in her leg. Mike Barnum, N.D., wrote, Dear Sharon and Greg, I really love the Futility Closet podcast and look forward to every new one. I know you can pronounce my name. You did

Starting point is 00:15:15 it before as I was the guy carrying a dismembered human skeleton through the Philadelphia subway a few dozen episodes back. I was intrigued by the story in episode 336 about a fan being struck and injured by two foul balls from the same at bat. Greg noted that the odds against this seem just astronomical. I agree completely, but as I thought about it, I realized some factors that made it a little less unlikely. Hall of Famer Richie Ashburn was known for being a prolific foul ball hitter. More foul balls means more chances to hit someone, twice. This happened in the same at-bat, so it was the same pitcher pitching to the same batter with the same game conditions.

Starting point is 00:15:59 That means that Ashburn would have been trying to hit the ball in the same way, for example, pushing to left or pulling to right. Ashburn batted lefty. Even the weather conditions, wind and sun, were the same. Those all increased the odds of a foul ball going to the same place. And Mike notes that Ashburn actually fouled 14 balls in that particular at-bat, which is apparently a record and really does add some context to the story. Mike also said, I don't know much about baseball, but I do know about moving patients on gurneys. Getting hit by a foul ball when you're seated, level with everyone around you, and shielded by those to your sides is really bad luck. You present a very small target in that setting.

Starting point is 00:16:35 However, once Mrs. Roth was placed on a gurney and was being carried up the stairs, she was up above everyone around her, presenting a much larger broadside target. Please note I'm not disparaging Mrs. Roth, I'm just pointing out her position during the incident. Depending on where she was in the stadium, I estimate she could have been shielding approximately 50 other fans in that situation. That may have been the difference between the story we have and a forgotten story about two fans near each other being struck. Thank you so much for a terrific podcast. That is interesting. If nearly the same thing had happened, it wouldn't have been nearly as remarkable.

Starting point is 00:17:08 But to two different people, right, yeah. We wouldn't remember it today. And Ashley Fell wrote, Hi, Sharon and Greg. I just finished listening to your follow-up about that poor woman who got seriously injured twice in one day when this video popped up in my Reddit feed.

Starting point is 00:17:23 Summary, on March 21, 2001, Randy Johnson's 100 mile per hour pitch connected with a very unlucky bird. Thanks for sharing so many fascinating stories. And we will of course have a link to this video in the show notes. A bird managed to fly right into the path of a pitch thrown by the Arizona Diamondbacks pitcher and the bird kind of exploded. And apparently this isn't the only time this kind of thing has happened. ABC News reported that in 1983, a Yankees outfielder killed a seagull with a warm-up throw in Toronto. So there's something else to watch out for at baseball games.

Starting point is 00:18:00 I was going to say that sounds very unlikely, but if you add up all the games that are played, and all the pitches and throws and yeah. Maybe it's less so. And Kat and Matt wrote to us from Valencia, Spain. Hi, Greg and Sharon. You may have sport related injury fatigue by now, but we thought you'd be as interested as we were to learn about trinquet. This uniquely Valencian sport looks a bit like squash or tennis doubles in a stretched out court. There are no rackets, you hit the ball, which is quite hard

Starting point is 00:18:30 like a baseball, with your hand, which is usually taped and splinted to minimize damage. One pair serves the ball and then the players rally back and forth until the ball bounces illegally. Exactly when or how this happens is still something of a mystery to us. The court is long and thin. In fact, it's traditionally played in the street, and the courts just approximate this shape. The one we have visited is Pelayo de Trinquet, which you can see on Google Earth takes up much of a city block. One of the long sides of the court has steps where spectators can sit on but are also in play. As Wikipedia says,

Starting point is 00:19:03 The ball is played many times on them since the stares and bodies of the people may cause fast and unexpected bounces. Cushions are provided for spectators, but these are better used to hide behind than to sit on. You may be hit, but you can't interfere with the ball by batting it away or throwing it onto the court. You have to let it fall down the steps of its own accord. You really have to pay attention to keep your eye on the ball at all times so you can duck when necessary. We have been hit while trying to gen up on the rules during the game. There are galleries at the far ends which have screens for protection, but where's the fun in that? When we watched a regular weekday match, there were a few spectators in the galleries and on the steps,

Starting point is 00:19:42 but if you Google image search trinquet, you'll see in finals and championship matches the steps and even under the net can be swamped with spectators, which must make it much harder for the players, or maybe it gives them more ways to generate an unexpected bounce. Trinquette is like many other aspects of Spanish life with regards to health and safety. It's mildly terrifying, but also refreshing to have to take responsibility for your own safety. We love listening to your podcast. Thanks for all the work you put into it. So it looks like trinquet is technically the name used for the specific kind of court used in Valencian pilota, a traditional handball sport in the Valencian community.

Starting point is 00:20:19 The exact origins of the sport aren't known, but Wikipedia says that it dates back at least as far as the late 13th century. And yes, as Kat and Matt noted, in at least some versions of the game, spectators watch at their own risk as sending the ball towards them is part of the actual gameplay. So good to keep in mind if you find yourself in Valencia. I guess that must mean it evolved in the court or on the street, you know, and that just became naturally part of the game. No one would design a game artificially with that feature, you know? Right. You specifically design it that you're trying to hit the people to make the ball do weird

Starting point is 00:20:51 things. But the game is so old that it's been forgotten how it actually came about. Yeah. Colin Hannafin wrote, hello. In your most recent podcast episode, episode 336, you noted that sometimes at sporting events, the spectators may be hit by the athletes themselves. The most famous example of this in American sports is probably the infamous NBA malice at the palace. In a 2004 game between two of the then-best teams in the NBA's Eastern

Starting point is 00:21:18 Conference, an on-court disagreement spilled over into the stands after a fan threw a drink at an agitated Ron Artest. Several NBA players charged into the stands after a fan threw a drink at an agitated Ron Artest. Several NBA players charged into the stands, attacking the fans. There are a number of articles and histories about the event, and it had significant short and long-term implications for the NBA and the Pacers. Love the podcast. Keep up the great work. And Colin sent a link to some footage from the broadcast of the game that we'll have in the show notes. This incident, called the Pacers-Pistons brawl, and also, as Colin noted, the malice at the Palace, after the name of the arena in Michigan, was called the most infamous brawl in NBA history by the Associated Press in 2012. At a home game for the Pistons, with less than 46 seconds left in the game, Pistons center Ben Wallace was

Starting point is 00:22:05 attempting to shoot the ball but was fouled by the Pacers' small forward Ron Artest. An angry Wallace then shoved Artest and a fight broke out between players from both teams. After the players were separated, Artest was lying on the scorer's table to try to calm down when a fan in the stands threw a beer at him. Artest charged into the stands, which set off a major brawl between some of the players and spectators that lasted several minutes. Quite a number of punches were thrown, as were various objects, including a folding chair. Pacers coach Rick Carlisle later said, I felt like I was fighting for my life out there, and Pacers assistant coach Chuck Person compared the situation to being

Starting point is 00:22:43 trapped in a gladiator-type scene where the fans were the Lions and we were just trying to escape with our lives. That's how it felt, that you had to fight your way out. The NBA suspended nine players for a total of 146 games, with 137 of those being for Pacers players. Our test received the longest suspension for the rest of the season, missing 73 games. The suspensions were without pay, causing the players to lose a total of $11 million, with our test losing $5 million. And five Pacers players and five Pistons fans were charged with various levels of assault and battery, with two more fans charged with trespassing for running out on the court. The players received sentences of probation, community service, and fines,

Starting point is 00:23:25 with some of them, including our test, ordered to receive anger management counseling. All of the charged fans were banned from ever attending a Pistons home game again, and some of them also received probation, community service, and fines. John Green, who threw the cup that started the brawl, was convicted of misdemeanor assault, not for throwing the cup, but for punching our test after the player stormed into the stands. Green was sentenced to 30 days in jail, two years probation, and to attend Alcoholics Anonymous and anger management counseling. He later said, it was the dumbest thing I've ever done. I got home that night and my wife was tapping her foot asking what the hell happened. She said, you're all over ESPN. The malice at the palace led to the NBA increasing

Starting point is 00:24:05 security between players and spectators and limiting the sale of alcohol at games. I'm almost surprised that doesn't happen more often. I mean, sports are sort of designed to be dramatic. And heated. Emotions are running high. But you don't hear, I mean, this is very extreme example. I guess adding alcohol to that mix doesn't really help. So maybe limiting the alcoholic games is not a bad idea. That's true. And we heard from a couple of listeners on a bit of a different topic from episode 336. Mark Ramsdale wrote, Dear Sharon Gregg, in episode 336, you referred to the 1974 correspondence between Cleveland Brown's season ticket holder, lawyer Dale O'Cox, and the team's general counsel, James Bailey, who wrote a terse and amusing reply to Mr. Cox. This reminded me of correspondence

Starting point is 00:24:51 that has similarly entered legal folklore. Known for its investigative journalism, particularly on scandals and cover-ups, UK satirical magazine Private Eye has been subject to numerous libel suits, and its long-standing editor is reportedly the most sued man in English legal history. In one edition, the magazine covered the case of a Mr. J. Arkell and the response from the I to Mr. Arkell's letter seeking damages. And the situation here was that the magazine had accused Arkell of receiving kickbacks from a company that had been hired by the company that Arkell worked for. Arkell's lawyers sent a letter to Private Eye asserting that the statements made about Mr. Arkell are entirely untrue and clearly highly defamatory, and that ended with, Mr. Arkell's first concern

Starting point is 00:25:35 is that there should be a full retraction at the earliest possible date in Private Eye, and he will also want his costs paid. His attitude to damages will be governed by the nature of your reply. The magazine's reply was, damages would be were he to learn that the nature of our reply is as follows, expletive off. Private Eye published the exchange and Arkell withdrew his complaint. And thanks to Alan Lewis for also sending that story, including a very helpful link to the full letters on the Letters of Note blog. Apparently lawyers were rather feisty in the 70s. I'm surprised he backed off at that. Yeah, it wasn't clear to me whether just having the exchange published made him realize that Private Eye had a much bigger megaphone or platform. I mean, this is pre-Twitter, right?

Starting point is 00:26:32 So he doesn't get a way to get his whole story out to the public like they do. And I guess they could just embarrass him a lot more. Thank you so much to everyone who writes to us. We really do regret that we can't read all the great email that we get on the show, but we do appreciate everyone who takes the time to write. If you have any comments or follow-ups for us, please send those to podcast at futilitycloset.com. It's my turn to try to solve a lateral thinking puzzle. Greg is going to give me an odd-sounding situation,

Starting point is 00:27:08 and I'm going to try to guess what's actually going on by asking yes or no questions. This is from listener Elliot Kendall. In the late 1950s, a particular technology began to come into wide use. As a result of its adoption, tens of thousands of people would die of cancer. Yet there were no calls for its abolition, and it was widely considered a success. Why? Is this the x-ray machine? No.

Starting point is 00:27:32 Oh, darn. That's a good guess. Yeah. I don't know when it came into wide use, but the next thing I think of is cigarettes, but I don't think people consider that. Well, I suppose some people consider that a success. That's not it. I'm trying to think what causes cancer. Thousands of people die of cancer.

Starting point is 00:27:55 Was that that they were already dying of cancer, but now the cancer is being diagnosed correctly? Oh, that's a good thought. No. Oh, okay. Because that would be successful, too, if you're just better diagnosing cancer. Yes. Before you were missing it. So what causes cancer?

Starting point is 00:28:12 So something causes cancer, but the thing was considered a success and nobody was trying to abolish it. Is that correct? That is all correct. That is all correct. He said carefully. Okay. Oh, okay. Well, maybe I should back up.

Starting point is 00:28:26 Something began being used in the 1950s. Yes. Widespread adoption. Right. And because of its use, as a direct consequence of its use, people were dying of cancer. I'll say no to that. I like the way Elliot has worded this. As a result of its adoption, tens of thousands of people would die of cancer.

Starting point is 00:28:46 Because they weren't dying of something else. Yes. So this was actually saving people from another cause of death. You're really good. Yeah? Yes. Okay. Oh, okay.

Starting point is 00:28:57 So they would go on to die of cancer instead of heart disease? No. I'm trying to think what are the really common causes of death. Something that kept mothers from dying during pregnancy or childbirth? No. Okay. I'm trying to think what... You're definitely on the right track. It's a particular technology that came in in the 50s. And it helped keep people from dying of a totally different cause than cancer. Yes. So these people would go on to develop cancer as they aged. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:29:27 Okay. All right. So that's why I'm trying to think. That was really the hard part. That was the lateral part. What? Oh, oh, oh, seatbelts in cars. I don't know how you do that.

Starting point is 00:29:39 Yeah, that's exactly it. Elliot writes, the technology in question is the automotive seatbelt. As James Hallenbeck notes in his book, Palliative Care Perspectives, to prevent one way of dying is in effect to create another. Even very good things like seatbelts are carcinogenic in that by decreasing the chance of dying in car accidents, seatbelts proportionately increase the probability of growing older and dying from other diseases such as cancer. That's a really lateral thinking puzzle.

Starting point is 00:30:06 That's very clever. You did a really good job. Thanks, Elliot. Thank you. And we can always use more lateral thinking puzzles. So if you have one for us to try, please send that to us at podcast at futilitycloset.com. Futility Closet really relies on the support of our listeners. If you'd like to become one of the awesome supporters of our show, Thank you. 11,000 Extonius Evolgations. Browse the Futility Closet store for Penguin adorned merch, learn

Starting point is 00:30:46 about the Futility Closet books, and see the show notes for the podcast with the links and references for the topics we've covered. If you have any comments or feedback for us, please email us at podcast at futilitycloset.com. Our music was written and performed by the always undemous Doug Ross. Thanks for listening, and we'll talk to you next week.

Futility Closet - 343-Operation Cowboy

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