Garza Podcast - 109 - CODE ORANGE: Drive, Obsession & Surviving Through the Hard Times

Episode Date: December 18, 2023

Garza sits down in-person with Jami Morgan & Eric "Shade" Balderose from Pittsburgh, PA band CODE ORANGE. https://www.codeorange.komi.io SPONSORS: distrokid.com/vip/garza 30% OFF! emgpickups.com Promo Code: Heavy 15% OFF! CHAPTERS: 00:00 - Starting in 2008, Reflecting on Career, Staying Positive 04:54 - Stolen Focus Book, Staying Focused & Being in the Moment 09:40 - Forcing Yourself to Get Work Done 12:33 - Band Chemistry, Working Together 13:57 - The Sound of Code Orange 15:08 - Under the Skin Live Acoustic Sessions, MudTV, Riki Rachtman 19:51 - Live Streaming Performances During Pandemic 29:06 - Playing to Small Crowds in the Early Days, Surviving the Early Days 33:58 - Creative Process, Writing 35:55 - Influences for Songs, Vision for the Band 40:43 - Getting Engaged, Marriage 45:18 - Making Money Livestreaming 50:22 - Arthur Rizk is a Sick Producer 52:08 - Code Orange Being Authentic With Their Ideas & Creativity 55:45 - Code Orange Doesn't Get Along with Other Bands, The State of Metal Music 1:01:19 - Having Longevity in Music, Outbreak Fest, The State of Hardcore Music 1:06:10 - Code Orange’s Member Lineup is Confusing 1:08:41 - Jami Played Drums Before Becoming a Frontman 1:17:45 - The Drive & Obsession 1:22:30 - Eddie Hermida Put Jamie in an Uncomfortable Situation, Having a Small Social Circle 1:31:46 - Working with Steve Albini, Kurt Ballou, Will Yip 1:36:49 - New Album, The Above, & Underneath Being Ahead of Its Time 1:38:05 - Working with Billy Corgan, Chris Vrenna, Learning From Mentors 1:43:08 - R.I.P. Cayle Sain

What's an idea that your bands had that not everyone was on board and then eventually you all kind of saw like same? Every one of these live streams probably. Really? I mean, when I explained, I wanted to like go down in a fake elevator. It was a lot of work, man. I mean, Domit Joe built that stage. They built the fucking stage and painted it. Me and my friend from Pittsburgh did all the projection mapping and stuff and Rebo was on the production side of like figuring out the logistics of getting everybody.

in there. I mean, it was like full full on. You know, everyone was doing a real fucking job. This was the one that broke us mentally, though. I think nothing was really ever the same. Yeah. Do use EMG pickups because they help you get the heaviest tone possible. Head over to emgpickups.com and use my promo code heavy at checkout and get 15% off. And then once you write the heaviest song of all time, head over to distroKid.com

slash VIP slash Garza and save 30% off your membership to get all your songs. on all streaming platforms. And now to the heaviest podcast of all time. You know what shit happens? You're like, is this real, dude? Yeah. It's just like. Every now and again.

Usually it's just bad shit that happens. So I'm like, is this real in a bad way? But there's that too. Yeah, when you get that like hit of like real life, it's like it kind of, it shoots you in the present moment. Like you like, if it makes sense, like it makes you really be like on your feet. Like, this is happening right now. This is happening right now.

Wake up. Get a little hit. No, but no, I totally feel you. Yeah, sometimes there's sometimes like any awesome thing that we've gotten to do, I definitely feel that feeling of like, whoa. Like, pretty, usually in the moment, I can feel that like, is this real, you know? So. It's hard to do that. It's hard to pause, especially when, like, if something good happening to you.

Yeah. That's trying to pause, like, what the fuck? Like, this band was started and fucking 2008. we're all like we're all like we're on high school now we're our man yeah that's true yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean it's like feels like it's a it's a you know how it is it's a bit of a trudge at time so you just keep going forward that's pretty much it i mean it's fine you got to push forward but yeah it's hard to it's hard to stop and smell the roses but i can i have a lot of good memories at least you know i think we all have like we can remember like some of the

big things pretty well hopefully yeah How long does it take you guys to it? Because for me it will take a few years sometimes. Like you'll look back and like, wow, that happened. Wow. Yeah. That happens, but I try to not. I try to not.

I try to continue to push because the way my mind is it's like a good thought can lead to bad thoughts. You know, so if I get too. Yeah, like if I dwell and go like, oh, well, this thing happened in the past, then guess what my next thought is like the best things are in the past? you go down that road yeah i'm not not in like a self-loathing way it's just where my brain naturally kind of does so i try to instead just stay on the like day to day or or on like whatever the art path is of the of that particular big picture you know what i mean so interesting that's just how i am yeah it's not it's not admirable but i never heard that it's called being insane

oh my goodness jamie shade cheers from cord orange appreciate it dude let's go I only had like a less of a day to do this. I was a pleasant surprise. Hey dude, I wanted to get in here. When I ran into this dude at our buddy, Morgoth beats his crib, shout out. And yeah, like I'd already wanted to get on here at some point if you wanted to have me. So when he said you did, I was like, yeah, let's go right away.

Well, a lot of people don't check their IGDMs. I'd probably say you something. Not for the cast. I'm gonna call you right now. I think maybe I sent you something. How long ago would it have been? A year. Maybe.

Mott to mine. Yeah. I don't think so, bro. I think you're lying. There was a period when you were off the shit too. So maybe it was. Yeah, no, I was off between like basically we finished up our tour, which was on our Out for Blood song.

And then for like over a year after that before we dropped the first song on this one, I just deleted the shit like it was off of it because I just needed a break. So it could have been then. Dude smart. I mean, it didn't do shit, but yeah, it was going to do it. It doesn't literally, like, reload you. Like, once you get back in it, you're just, it's like as if you never, you never left. Dude, that's true.

I hear about that. It's dark, yeah. Like, you could, like, just spend so much time off it and then you get hooked quick, dude. And that's the scary part. I know, dude. It sucks. Like, not to read, not to sound like a geek or, um, but I read books about focus and people that are trying to focus. morning and there's this end of this one i think it's called stolen focus i read it too i read the same

book yeah that that was one of my kickstaters to get off continue though but that's a great book stolen focus yeah uh let's get yep and i think i i believe the author is i think english yeah i can because i know because i can't see his name jimmy can't jimmy or jake can you guys help why can't you see it no i can't say his name oh joan harry or something oh yeah thank you Thank you. I wasn't, yeah, he's, was he like Welsh or? Yeah, that's like part of the... Not American, and the way this fucking ends, I'm like, oh, great.

So this guy spent, I don't know, years trying to find a way to focus more and get away from his phone. And the way the... Spoiler, turn this podcast off now, it kind of ends like not bright, which I liked a lot. Yeah, me too. It's kind of like ending like a movie, not like a good note. It was like, yeah, I lost more focus than ever. Kind of like kind of way I was like, is that, is it that hard to focus on shit, you know? It's very informative too, like kind of, you know, there's different elements in the book.

It kind of starts, like, personal about, like, how he was triggered to it and how he was, like, with his child. And they were at, like, you know, these great landmarks. And, and, you know, neither of them were, like, in the moment. And then you kind of learn about, like, he goes and talks to a lot of the people for, from people at the tech companies all the way to like scientists, like to, I think he talks to like some philosophical people even like about it. And like it's interesting.

I also like that it wasn't like a, it was kind of a book that felt like it's just putting things on the table for you to, you know, learn from. It's not telling you to do anything or saying like, oh, phones are bad. It's kind of like here's the reality of one,

the like capitalistic aspect of it of like why, you know, you know, it talks about like Amazon and how like over the past X amount of years, the amount of time we've lost sleep, like, you know, the nationwide like average of sleep that's gone down. Like in that X amount of time Amazon has made this much more because people shop at night and stuff. So it's fucked up. It's fucked up.

It's a lot of shit. But yeah, I get into that. My, sometimes you'll, uh, you'll get like, it's always like you'll get one golden nugget,

like one I take away. The big one for that one. this book was the processing power it takes for your mind to switch from, let's say like you're typing an email or you're writing a song

or you're doing anything, anything. And then you stop to look at your phone for a text. Like the amount of brain power it takes to actually stop you from focusing that to switch over that and then switch back over to what you're doing is actually maybe one time is our okay but we do it a lot.

And that processing time power is what adds up. And it just that that freaked me out and it gets me every few days. I'm like, because you get like remind him like, damn, look at my phone. And I know what it's doing. I know it takes my brain a lot to go back into what you're trying to do. Oh, dude. Like I'm so fucking ADHDed out that I've almost like created like this insane flow state where by doing stuff like I'm doing something. I'm doing the phone, which I hate like literally I hate that I do this.

This is something I'm repulsed by myself. Like I'm looking at the phone. I'm having thoughts. I'm being able to communicate them. And by doing all that stuff, like, because I'm so used to it, because I'm so wired in a horrible way now. Yeah. It's like I can almost, it's like a drug. Like I almost need to do it to get my flow like going.

This man right here is the complete opposite. That's good. He stays, dude, he stays zone on that computer for 12 hours. I'm a complete ADHD though. I'm like the opposite end of the spectrum from him. To me, it's like, my biggest problem with that kind of stuff is like, you get into this sometimes when you have ADHD, this state of doing nothing because you're thinking about doing so much. It's like before you can start on something, you're thinking about 20 different things. And thinking about that stuff puts you in a state of like, fuck it all, you know?

So until I sit down at the computer, I'm not feeling like focused, you know? It's not until I sit down that I can actually like focus. It's like the mental preparation that it takes for me to like jump into like different projects and stuff. Like just forcing myself to start it is the hardest thing for me. Okay, this sounds like a dumb question, but you realize what it is. How do you sit down and actually do that? Usually it's, I force myself. It's literally just, huh?

Yeah. Like there was a period during like lockdown too where it was like social where it was like, I'm thinking about all these different things in my life. like it's chaos, like shit's fucked. I don't want to leave the house. You know, I don't even want to go see my friends because who knows what's going to happen. So it's like that state of like I'm frozen in time. But then you take that like compared to work and it's like you just got to, at some point I'm just like, fuck it.

I got to just sit down and I got to try, you know. And usually at least I can get through that first little period where it's really hard. How long? How long is that period? Usually like an hour at least. Yeah, and then it's like, I'll get a flow going on whatever I'm working on. Here's from my perspective on him, I don't, it's hard to even believe that because his version of get through it, this is just him in a nutshell, shade. Yeah.

His get through it, this is his get through it face. This is his flow state face. This is his, I'm pretty much done. He just goes like, all right, I'm pretty much done. Okay. So it's like to the out, I don't know what he's talking about. I've sat there with him. He's locked in.

He must not be like in his head. But he's locked, he seems locked in more than, like when we watch a movie even on like Netflix or something, he's sitting there. Like, you know what we all do. We watch. Like if we're not in a theater especially, a lot of us, we watch. He'll just sit there. So he's a fuck. I don't know if he's a fucking liar or what's his problem.

I smoke a lot of weed too. I smoke a lot of weed and that helps me get rid of my phone and stuff. So it's like, oh. He's either fighting a lot of. mental battles that we don't know about, or he's just a fucking straight-up liar. So we have to figure it out on the cast if he's lying to us or not. We'll get to the bottom of it. Stay tuned. He gets in there, and he puts it in, dude.

I'm just like total. It's the same thing, though. It's like you're just much more outward with your emotions than I am. That's very true. I'm very stoic. It's like, I'll just sit there and hold it in if I want to scream, you know. He's a G. I could tell if there's two very different personalities in front of me.

But we're called Mary. But we're complimenting that type of personalities. We straight up work together every day, me and him. Like more than, like we do everything together, like work-wise. Like our album, we produce the album together every day. So we do have different personalities, but it's in a strangely like non-overall clashing way. Like there's people that I'm similar to that I would clash with a lot more. Like most of the time, 90% of the time, we're just like pretty much.

And like we're two halves of the same whole thing, you know. Yeah. And you and you two and Reba have so much time together. Yeah. You know, that's like that. That's a, that's years of musical chemistry, man. Yeah. You know, and all different personalities don't clash, but clash when it probably comes to like, you know, creative ideas.

My, my idea is better. Fuck you. Me and him don't really play that much. My idea is better. No. I mean, I mean, sometimes like every now and again, but. It's usually more like an argument of one of us trying to describe which thing makes more sense. Yes.

I never heard that. That's totally yet. Yeah. Interesting. Well, because we think of, especially music and production in a very methodical, like, very surgical manner. So, like, recently we've been working on kind of, like, movie score stuff just trying to, like, put stuff out there for people and trying to put it all together. it's like we're extremely just like trying to make a puzzle work

and trying to put all the pieces together so that it creates a new image you know. We usually agree on the image though you know like at the end of the day we're just like sometimes we really feel there's different ways to get there but most of the time we're

even if like it's something that I don't fully understand yet or he doesn't fully understand yet we're like pretty much in lock and step we just disagree sometimes on like the details in the process but I mean it's it's it's pretty we're pretty synced up it's kind of funny to hear that because if you hear the music of cold orange it sounds like complete chaos sometimes so it's funny like it's how like the process is actually making that well to me it doesn't that's the thing sure people say

that to me all the time and i'm always like all right i mean i believe you but to me it's like there's chaotic elements in the sense of uh you know like traditional metallic chaos but in terms of like the structure of everything fitting together and the different things we play with. It's organized in my way, so it's not chaotic to me, but I can see to other people why it's kind of like a big mess, maybe. Yeah. So the last piece of music I heard from you guys is the live under the skin.

You got to catch up, brother. You're a little late, brother. Oh, yeah, I was way late. Yeah, you're going to get in. Well, tell us 20 what the book I was doing. we were going through a lot That's fire though But I listened to your whole

From the first record To your recent Oh yeah But then I went to like Because I listened to a band I'll listen to the whole Like the music And I'll go back to like live

Yeah Oh this is acoustic Okay Oh that's in 20 okay And then I watched it I was like It fucking blew me away Oh thanks man

I appreciate I wish I found that first And then I started Because now it made me like It made me rethink Your music completely different Oh, really? It's weird.

Why how so? I don't know. It's like, uh, like for, for one, if you, if you have heavy music and it translates to acoustic, that's very rare. It's crazy. So I'm watching like, you know, okay, first of all, the intro. You like that? Like, the intro, like, okay, how did you get, like, the whole, because the whole concept of mud TV, because I get it like the whole, like, how did you get them to do that? Well, the concept started. We were like, okay. you know, we didn't want it to be just one element. So it was like, what are,

we're always kind of looking for maybe two or three elements we can combine. So the idea was like MTV unplugged and like a found footage, weird like horror kind of movie, right? So smack those together. And then the mud TV thing was born. And then it was like, well, you know, how do we get that idea over, as they say? And it was a no brainer. It's like, we got to go to Ricky Rackman. I mean, we wanted to do headdanger's ball.

We did our mud bangers ball, so I just messaged him. And I was there. Yeah. Messaged them, and he was the cool. He's the fucking coolest guy ever. Where's the camera at? Shout out to Ricky Rachman, man. He'll really, he's a great dude, man.

He got on a motorcycle and came and did it for us for free. He did that was it. He's the man. I mean, he's awesome. That is fucking cool to hear. He's a dear friend of mine now, like, because of that. So I just messaged him and was like, wrote him the pitch. I was like, brother, this is what we're doing.

We need you to do it. you know, please. And he was like, all right. So, worked out. Wow. Yeah. Shout out, dude. Ricky, you are a fucking OG, dude.

That's sick. He loves music, man. He knows so much about music. If you guys get a chance, he does these, like, stand-up type of deals, like an evening with. And I went in Solomon Pittsburgh.

It was great. He goes through, like, the cat house era, you know, the, like, 80s shit, where he had the club where all the 80s guys would go. And then he had the fucking,

it goes into the fucking Pantera, like 90s and like all that shit they go through all the headbanger's ball and shit's awesome the way it intros and then Ricky does the intro and then goes into bleeding in a blur I was

I was uh I watched it here doing like my like kind of just closing off my notes and I just watch me all I just watch this enjoy it and I was like you're like because what's the word homage homage homage homoage

homage okay and like you know you little clip of like Nirvana a little clip of like I was a chains and like yeah I love that part and it goes in I was like oh this is this is serious

context you know that's a lot of context because we felt like if we didn't set it up like that I was like no one they already have no fucking clue what we're doing like this is gonna make no sense so it was like we need to give them a little context he made that clip and everything

so he rocks that all that stuff it was so it was so sick, dude. Thanks, man. And then, when that song kicked in and you see, it's everything like that,

like the visuals and like the kennels are going. And then, yeah, we would just stashed off with that riff. She rocked that, man.

She was really instrumental to making that idea happen. She was definitely, like, planted the seed of doing something like acoustic. And then, you know,

her and I worked out most of the songs acoustically, like how they were going to go. And a couple of them, we did with shade as well. And then, as usual, kind of him and I came up with the more narrative thematical concept

and how to glue it all together. But she really helped on this one, her and Joe and Dom, with like, if you look in the background there, the candles are these like little mud mask things that we make that are like our mud man, like robot guy,

whatever insignia. And they were making those masks like by hand and making all the props by hand and, you know, setting it all up, Like, it was, it was super DIYing. So Reba and Joe and Dom really rocked that hard, man. They made that happen.

Did, uh, did Sonny have something to do with the filming? Yeah, he filmed, he filmed all the specials we do. We did three, like, live stream deals, and he filmed all of them. Can't do it without them. Mm. Another legend. So this, obviously, this was 2020. This was during, like, the pandemic.

Yeah. This hit me today. Were you the, the, Was Code Orange the first band to do a live stream? Pretty much. I mean, there was probably bands who did them, but... I don't think I heard of a band that came out, because obviously, very similar,

like, the record dropped the same month that the fucking world shut down. That happened to you, too? Yeah. But then you already had a showbooked, correct? Yeah. And then you basically just decided to make that a stream. Yeah, it was actually my mom's idea.

So we... You want your mom's idea? Yeah. That's sick. Because we were all outside the practice. a space trying to figure out what the fuck we were going to do. And kind of scrambling, like, man, what are we going to do? And I just, I had talked to my mom and she was like, what you need to do is you need to

just go do a show and film it and stream it. And I remember telling her at the time, I was like, that's impossible. I was like, this is in like two days. I was like, we're not like, you know, and you just feel like frustrated people give you input where you're like, you don't understand. But as usual, she was right. And I was like, I hung up. And then I was like, okay.

Let's do it. And then, yeah, Riba got on the phone and started calling people. I got on the phone and started calling people. And we just put it together. Thankfully, he had made a whole visual show for our tour that we were able to translate to do all the like, you know, give the shit some extra kick. Yeah. That really made it thing. But I think the empty venue aspect was definitely like.

I got that from wrestling. That was definitely like, I think, original to us in that aspect and kind of kicking it off even further with our following streams of like the virtual crowd and stuff. we're definitely like right right in the front lines of that whole live stream shit for sure front lines yeah i remember like uh i gotta say like you guys were the first band to do it yeah i didn't i mean when i see a first band i mean i'm talking rc i'm talking music yeah like this shit like no one knew what the hell was going on and people kind of assumed that oh it's gonna open up back in a month or two yeah you know we we i knew we all had a feeling we were fucked like right away so we just went into pivot mode and then the idea of doing like the three

the three specials is like with three different themes came alive, you know, pretty quickly. It was like, okay, the first one's going to be essentially the album, like in the form we were going to perform it on the tour. That set, you know, show the empty arena. Like we were thinking almost like an empty arena match, like old school WWF, you know, like show the actual room empty. We made sure everybody was cleared out so we could show it.

And I could cut a little promo. And then the second one was this show, you know, It was, we thought, okay, now we have an opportunity if the audience is there, which they kind of weren't, but to show like what you kind of maybe just discovered, like, show these different dynamics of the band that if we just hit the road, we couldn't.

So it was like, okay, number two, go acoustic, show the songs for what they are. And then number three, we took it, it's, I don't know if you saw that one, but that one's sick. It's like we took it to a whole new level with the technological aspect. It's like this very like Blade Runner style one called Back Inside the Glass.

That was sick. Yeah, check that one out real quick. Back inside, yeah. Dude, you're gonna, you'll fucking love this shit. But yeah, nobody really watched it like that, but it's all good, though. Sick. But dude. There's like a big 3D mapped stage.

What the fuck is going on? What is this? I want to see him pop. It's a completely white stage. We like 3D mapped. This is all live. The only part we didn't do live is like, you'll see. We're going to pop up.

We did a little trick. Boom, there we are. Let's go. Dude. We're fucking here, dude. Yeah, this shit's fire. And we did, I wanted to do all this kind of picture and picture stuff. So I basically wrote this like whole, you guys were fucking crazy, dude.

Well, I mean, nobody really watched it. So it wasn't that successful. But dude, we fucking, I wrote this whole script, basically. And it like broke down for the crew. every spot we were going to do picture and picture. And the band members knew that they would have to like a play hit their like tape mark so we could get the picture and picture shots and like put them in. So it was like we had to all, it was like a mixture of almost like a play and like a performance, you know.

And it changes backgrounds. He designed all the backgrounds. Those little seats on the side we like sold as a VIP like you're, you could have a video of yourself in it like that we would see everything again. And then he designed like all these rooms for the entire set. They changed like every song, multiple times per song.

Yeah, I skip ahead a little bit and show some different ones. Your vampire has really cool conversations. Like this seems like this, there's no rules, no bullshit. This idea and we're gonna do it.

At times, you know. Once we're all on board, once we're all committed, then it's like, let's get it. But sometimes it takes some convincing. What's an idea that your bands had that not everyone was on board,

and then eventually you all kind of saw, like, same? Every one of these live streams probably. Really? I mean, this one was buried at first, I would say, by the group. When I explained, I wanted to, like, go down in a fake elevator. It was a lot of work, man. I mean, Domit Joe built that stage. They built the fucking stage and painted it.

Me and my friend from Pittsburgh did all the projection mapping. and stuff and Reba was on the production side of like figuring out the logistics of getting everybody in there. I mean it was like full full on. You know, everyone was doing a real. This was the one that broke us mentally though. I think nothing was really ever the same.

Yeah. Like honestly. It was a lot of work. This one fucked the shit up pretty bad. What happened? We put so much work into this. Like I can't even, it's hard to even express in words. It's almost comical like the level of effort that went into this by like

everybody, Riba. shade the boys on a physical level like fucking working like essentially a construction job on top of like these physical performances on top of like so I don't know just it snapped like a twig after that for a while it was like people just were like over it because we didn't get anything from it you know what I'm saying we didn't make any fucking money and nobody really saw it like I've sat in front of so many people like you and like none of them saw it so it goes to kind of show like we I love the art and proud of it, but at the time we needed a lifeline, we felt like, and we thought, okay, if we hit these three and knock them out of the part, like, there's no way.

We're like, it's too sick. Like, in our heads, we're like, this shit's too sick to, like, not work. And then it's just like, that's the game. You know, charge it to the game. But it was fun still. Fuck. I was all right. I feel, yeah, those, uh, those life streams will break you.

It didn't seem to us. Yeah. It broke us a app for sure. Yeah. Tell me, like, how so? Um, we had the, uh, those, um, we had the, Briadio of Because you

So you announced your shit first And then we were in talks of We came up with Brietya Let's do a virtual tour Because they were doing like this Geogating shit Oh yeah

Yeah I remember that And I We should just done one or two shows But we did like Fucking We got A third encore here

Around here in L.A And got it for a month Did like 36 shows And 32 days Whoa It sounds That's That's a bad idea, dude.

Where were you fucking three years ago? I would have straight up told you, don't do that. The math doesn't add up. I mean, it's cool. Let me see it. Let me see it. Oh, that's hard. Oh, we have a video. Oh, my God. Just the memories already.

It's fucking PTSD. So it was like you were in the same place, but only regionally people could view it. Yeah, every day. It was like changing regions. Oh, God. So basically, obviously, the number of doesn't add up, so you're doing two shows a day. Fuck, dude. Because we figure it out, okay, we could do one one show for the West Coast

and the other one later for like Europe or something, somewhere in some out there. No one, you know, there wasn't a jamie that to come up to our face and say, that's... Hey, dude, I don't know shit. I just would have, what I would have said was, dude, that's going to hurt physically too much.

It did. Because there's no adrenaline. So it fucks you or your body up bad. Like we were hurting after those streams. more than any show. It's weird, huh? I was, like, in a fucking stretch or when we were done with it,

I was like, dude, I can't even move. Like, and then we had to tear it all down. It was our buddy's church. We built it, tore it down. Oh, fuck, it sucks. I mean, really, dude, like Joe and Domble on that one took the brunt. I mean, they're fucking still fucked up physically.

I mean, that probably didn't help. So, yeah. It's funny because when you were explaining what you were doing, I was kind of made me think like oh wait like it's weird how it was so foreign to us but like man we kind of did that back in the day we're playing a part of like an empty room oh dude I get that too go off dude dude have you got we played a lot of shows to less than like 10 people oh yeah I feel like you have hit you've done it too of course of course and I feel like a lot of bands now don't really don't really do that is my crazy or okay I went to a show two weeks ago and it was for a smaller band. Like, with some upcoming bands, I was like, I was

I spent, I was expecting to go there, I'm okay though, fuck what, like, 30 people maybe, it was like, there's some fucking people here, dude. Yeah, people. Yeah, weird. That's crazy. And also, when a band's come out, which I found out literally today and yesterday, I was kind of like, I don't do what I say, but like, I

dove into the comments a little bit and, like, this new band came out, and people were fucking praising it. I was like, this is great, I'm like, this is what's happening now? Yeah. Because I bet you probably experienced the same thing. You come out first and like, no one gets a fuck. That's an understatement.

No one kid's a fucking fuck about your band. Yeah. And I was like, well, it's a... That's what makes you hard, though. That's what it needs to be. Totally. I feel like if it's not like that, it's like, I mean, you know, if it's not, oh, fuck, he's pulling off the fucking receipts.

Don't go too hard now. Dude, let's go. That was a good one. Let's go. Shade, you got the metal gear shirt on? Agitator straight edge metal gear shirt. Jesus, best. Jesus.

You were certainly not straight edge at the time. You were high as a fucking kite. I was agitator squad, though. You were high as a kite, dude. Look at you back there. About to fall out the garage door. Or even with that fucking V-neck. Dude, those garage shows, dude, there's something about them.

She's got the Karen cut out. I remember this show, man. I look like a fucking mad scientist, Albert Einstein, Oppenheimer, motherfucker. Dude, you're still a mad scientist. I mean, I look I mean A different way The dumbest scientists who ever lived

Simply times Look at Joe back there man Looks so young Full of life He looks like shit He's got fucking goddamn Cargo shorts Looks like a human larva

I look like a fucking I'm literally barely breathing I have no There's no weight Like I don't exist I'm about to get Avengers Into fucking dust bro Somebody snaps a little too hard

I'm right there with you man They start pitting soon because we rock too hard. Do you see. Whatever diet you were on, I need to get on there because I'm getting fat, dude. Dude, that's called the Being Young Diet. I know. I missed that, dude. Anything you want, you're shredded. That was Taco Bell every night, died.

Yeah, dude, we were just eating Taco Bell and bread sandwich, which is just bread with nothing in between. You ever look back, I'm like, and just, it's like, man, like, how do we, how do we do that? Pass, like, for, like, demos, even, like, do your first record? You ever look back, I'm like, damn, how do we

how do we do that? I mean, mindset? I definitely hear stuff on I am King in forever and I'm like, damn, that shit's fire,

man, like, how the fuck did I make that? And like, I'm thinking about how I'm gonna do it now and it's totally different, you know? It's different though.

Than how I would have did it back then, you know, so it's, it is interesting. Just to like, like, like I think for us, too,

is like we're never the most musically talented people or whatever. so it's like we're always working with our limitations and that's always pushing us creatively. So it's like just always using the tools you got, man. Yeah, some people in the band have like more of that kind of musical aptitude and some of us don't, you know, so just use the tools we have.

But I don't think about it very much. I don't think about that sort of thing very much, honestly. Hmm. Like, just don't. I do sometimes. I probably... How do we... What the?

Like, how did you do? like a certain song or yeah like how did you write that what was it's weird where or even like where now you're talking about where where to come from what what what what were you doing i could see i could see that for sure i think about that in life definitely more than like shit i fucked up you know what i mean i'll i'll think that's what i'm thinking about with the songs i'm just like oh there you guys you're like so intentional with how you song write too so it's like me thinking of how we would write the mud or something,

trying to think of it from my perspective. I'm like, I have no fucking idea how we would even do that in the time period because we weren't using computers. We weren't doing anything like that. But in reality, it was like, you know, you kind of put the thing together in your mind, you know?

I mean, yeah, I have the blessing of not having to deal with as much of the technical bulk like he does and even Riba did at many points. So I think that makes it a different type of mindset. that, you know what I mean?

Like, he thinks about the, how did he do it, like physically do it? Yeah, yeah. Because I, like, and that's really difficult. I don't know if he did. I don't know. He does it now, barely. And I'm sitting there the whole time. Do you have, like, a sound in, like, your head or, like, say, you try to, like, explain it?

What's the... It's like a bounce ball. It's like I'll have sometimes, sometimes it comes, you know, from me throwing something and something comes back from one of them. Sometimes it's different. Like, they'll just play some little sound or some riff. and it hits me and it just sends me off on ABCDE sometimes somebody will come in with something like

really formed and then it's just more my ideas at that point are usually okay how do we preserve how good this is and also add that's the hardest yeah that's the hardest I love that though when that happens to me I'm like oh that's a like when Rebo will do that what she does do sometimes it'll be like

take that the fuck down off the damn screen get it up there dude the fuck is this you keep on off too many pictures, brother. You'll see. Keep playing. Keep playing with us. But so, yeah, I mean, like Reba sometimes would bring in ideas that are pretty fully formed

in terms of at least like, I know, okay, this is a good song. Right away. And that is almost a sigh of relief where it's like, okay, now we just got to color this, right? And make this some bitch fucking shine and make it fit into the, to the universe of the coat orange world aesthetically, but the hard part's done. You know what I mean? So that's only once in a while, but many different ways to go because many, many, they're, they're all very talented, you know, so it makes it easy. So from going to the record, I am, I am king, like you guys talked about like you're going to make things more, more simple, right? Yes. Which, which,

when you say it, it's funny because when you do, we're just talking about that, when you make things more simple, that's one of the hardest things to do in songwriting to make things more simple. You know, how do you take away things or know what to take away? Well, we were getting, we were on the road with certain kinds of bands and we were around, we were getting more engulfed into like the traditional hardcore culture from what we had come from, which was more of like a hybrid of hardcore culture and punk culture and like all just weird general weirdo culture. which you can feel all that on this record.

And we knew aesthetically where we wanted to go once we started putting the pieces together. But the idea was like maybe it started off with just songs. It wasn't like we go into it so intentionally. But once the song started coming together and once we started getting input from people, people in other bands,

I remember we recorded demos with Taylor Young. He recorded all the demos for this record who plays in like switching tongues. And I would send stuff to Todd Jones from Nails at the time who we were communicating a lot then and he would give input and people around us would help us and give us input and then when we started you know shaping it the idea became maybe let's rebuild this house a little bit so that we can maybe have the room to build it back up because what I felt like was the other house we were building before this it's almost like

I had already seen the conclusion like that one record was the conclusion of all the demos and stuff we had done. Even like past a certain point, like once we kind of locked in, like aesthetically we had a tape. It was like, embrace me, was one of the tapes.

And there was like a split with full of hell. And all these things like artistically looked similar and had like the same, same aesthetic, you know, and weave together. So like peaked out.

So once it peaked out, it was like, all right, that's the prequels. Now we got to, you know, we're not getting rid of that. We'll build back to it,

hopefully build back to being all over the fucking place. But let's try, like, do it in a different way. And then also, of course, we were getting into different kinds of music that we hadn't really gotten into. You know, like, when we were teenagers, we weren't necessarily into, like, Allison Chains. But then as we were getting towards being, you know, 18, 19, 20, we were discovering more rock music and more metal. And a lot of stuff we hadn't really discovered. So that was fusing in there, you know, because we were more just like weird, punk, hardcore, roll around on the ground, have patches, but also have like a black my heart shirt, like kids that did. didn't make any sense, you know, hodgepodge kids.

So, yeah, sorry for the long answer. No, so it's crazy that you had, Jimmy, you had like the foresight. You guys had like that, like the foresight. Sort of. Once the, I'm not going to fucking act like I'm fucking sitting there like, you're a genius. No, I'm not.

They'll throw, I'm a genius. Fuck you. You're a genius. Pieces come into play. And then once the pieces are there, to an extent, I do feel I have. have the ability to know how to put them together and know how to build it up.

But I need the pieces. I can't pull the pieces from scratch. That is why I work with him. That's why I've worked with Reba, Dom, Joe. They're so amazing at that. And I'm sure they can build their own fucking full puzzle, too. I mean, I know that Reba and Shade, and if the other two wanted to, they totally could.

But they allow me to, like, glue it, do that. And I appreciate that. So what do you think when you hear like a song like Dreams and inertia? It started with the loop. You did the loop first, right? Or did Reba do the loop? It might have been Reba, yeah.

Yeah, I think Reba did the loop, and then we were just jamming a lot in the room at the time. At the time we wrote that I Am King record, we were also writing the first record of, or the only record of our kind of more indie-leaning band. That was called Adventures. So, like, on opposite days, we would kind of write for each band,

like in the same shitty room. And so this, you know, we were playing with rock stuff already, so it kind of made sense to, create this kind of smoky, uh, fucking found footage weird...

Yeah, we did the video right there. Fuck. The video's hard. That's, yeah, that's Shades old house like, well,

this is my parents' house. Yeah. Yeah, that's sick. Northside. That Shades tub. It was dirty. Oh,

disgusting. Look how young you are. We were so young, dude. We're so fucking old. It's fucking pathetic. It happens quick, dude.

I know, right? Toyin adds years. I'm gonna off myself. I'm gonna off myself. Out of nowhere. Yeah, fuck it Remember we were doing that

I remember when we were doing that Smash I was looking around like Is anybody around? Hey, Shade, it's your It's your call What's that? Oh yeah, I'll take another Two?

Jayr, Jayr, Zach, can we Can we get some beers in the opener? Appreciate it. Your hair is very Justin Bieber here, Shade Oh, fuck, that's a dish. No, dude, no, he was looking fresh. He used to be killing it with the ladies.

I don't know about that. With the Bieber? cut with the swoop. But now Shade is in a dedicated relationship. I am, yeah. How long? I've just recently got engaged. Engaged, really? Do you, congrats, man.

Thank you. Thank you. I've been with it for almost eight years. Eight years, long time. Yeah. Yeah, dude. Thank you. I've been my chick for about four years. I've been with my chick even longer than him.

How long? I think like nine, nine and a half. Yeah. and we're going to be getting engaged soon as well. I'm just trying to get my bread up a little bit. Okay. This man likes to throw it out there a little more than I am. This conversation is about to piss off some of my ladies.

Cheers, cheers. Cheers. Cheers. So I have a brother me softly. This is only, this is only out of fun. I'm not serious or. I'm scared. What is he going to say?

What is the concept? First of all, I want to see him later groundwork. I want to marry my girlfriend. Me as well. One of a percent. well yeah but but just out of curiosity i'm like what is marriage right no i agree i mean i'm with you dude that's what to me like i was i'm not even worried about getting married it was like more like the engagement is more meaningful to my partner than the marriage at this point where it's just like

that commitment you know and i think that's really what is the most important thing it's just like committing to each other fuck everything else to me like fuck the wedding the ceremony yeah i mean it's fucked. I mean, it's, they're just trying to get money off as real. Not, not the women. Everybody just want to. Not the women. Oh my goodness. Clip that.

Clip it. Cut that. Cut that, cut that. Cut that. Cut that. That society. No, no, clip it. Everybody just wants a free plate dinner.

You know what I'm saying? Sure. What the fuck does that mean? I don't know what he's saying. You go to the wedding. You get the plate of dinner. Oh, all right. Yeah.

I got to pay for that. I want it. That's my pocket. They got to pay for that. You got to make them pay. We should do like a $15 a head for. your wedding shade. Yeah, we'll sell tickets.

Ticketmaster. Say it, dude, I'll be sick. You play a show. Then it's like the absolutely worst crowd I could ever imagine for my wedding. Just like the... Why are we looking at wedding catering right now? Because we're all going to get married. This guy's out of his fucking mind.

We're all going to get married. Okay. Thinking about getting married, which one, I think we all want to do it deep down, even though we say that we don't, at least I do. And then... I do. Yes. I want to get married, but there's the whole, the whole wedding thing.

It's so complicated for other people. Like, so I'm trying to convince my lady, hey, make it local. Pick a day of the year where everyone can maybe actually conveniently as possible show up to this one location. Because if people don't know, when you have a wedding, you're evolving other families. I literally had an argument when my chick about when I was a wedding. It's like, okay, am I going to fly out? I bought a flight. I almost missed a show

for someone else's wedding because like it's just they plan to put it in a day it's fucking just location. I'm like what the fuck? Yeah. I think if you want to get married,

please just consider it. Make it convenient. Please just consider us for this one thing. We'll do it. We want to do it. We want to do it.

Make it somewhat convenient because you, man, the other families are involved. I can't even arrange like a game night with my friends, much less like trying to orchestrate like 50 people from across the country. Let's be honest. The three of us right here

with what we're doing in life, we ain't the fucking sharpest tools in this shit. Am I wrong? No, you're not. We're not. We're three-fourths of a fucking moron. You know what I'm saying? The three of us combined, we're not even one full and normal guy.

So at the end of the day, I mean, what do you want from us? We're doing the best we can do. Am I wrong? I'm doing the best I ever did Yeah, exactly Go away But what do What do the women seeing us though?

Because a woman has a gift They have a gift Of seeing something in you That you don't see in yourself It's crazy I couldn't tell you I have no clue yeah It's a gift to us

And a curse to them I guess I would say They're cursed Yeah With some damn losers They're stuck now They've made their bed Some pathetic bastards

playing shows to nobody trying to tell them it's all good oh it's a live stream you're playing a show to nobody it's like oh no it's a live stream okay i think it's a great idea one he was fucked up which i mean it pissed me off when i found this out uh might as same to you but a lot of bands did live streams after we did and they made a lot of fucking money one because they did like the live stream a show in their fucking garage and people no expenses a ton of people bought it and us like you're just like this sitting in your house like I did this in debt I almost broke up my band and this band did it and it made like 80 grand you're like this like I don't know shit dude like what

it almost seems like sometimes like every time we like make a decision to like turn right it's like we should have turned left in certain regards like that third live stream we had talks about doing that as like you know through like a ticket broker and like you know there was money involved and then we were like we're just going to do it ourselves. Like, we want the, like, my stupid things. I'm so fucking dumb.

I was like, I really need the landing page to look insanely cool. And none of the companies could offer that. They just wanted it to be like the generic like thing. And for me, that was a no-go. So we just did it ourselves because of that. Sick. Which is literally, if you really think about it, like one of the stupidest things you could ever do.

So yeah, we didn't get shit out of it, really. I mean, we sold some merch and all that, but it is what it is. Well, I mean, I did it my word. he's two beers in man you shouldn't know who can like by the way this is first podcast ever for a fault shade I am honored to have you on because I was like man he doesn't do any interviews

holy shit let's fucking go dude yeah I'm not typically in the interview spot he's the man he's the best I'm so glad you thank you man I love to be here so I know I'm assuming you don't like the word producing or whatever word you want to call it

but you mentioned that you kind of found it by just looping peddle Yeah. Right? Yeah, you can call it producing, whatever. I mean, it was just like kind of my way of writing music was always just more like, just hardware oriented, less like, you know, musically oriented, less like instrumentation, more experimentation, you know? So it was just a kind of a natural process for me.

It just like started with guitar and then it was like I got pedals and then I got a looper pedal. And then I was like, I can only make 30 seconds on the looper. pedal, I want to make 40 seconds. I need a computer. So then it was, it was just like, and my learning process is always like very linear, like, I want to do this. And to do that, I have to learn this, this, and this. So I learn those three things, and then I can do what I wanted. And now I can do this next thing, but I got to learn this other thing. So it's just like cumulative production, you know, and it's kind of just a long road,

just working with code. What was the loop pedal that you got? The Jam Man, the Digitech Jam Man. The Jam Man? Yeah, dude. I was... I was... I was...

I was... There was a whole scene of guitar players that just started using the Jam Man as like interludes and everything. Is this it? The Jam Man? That's it. Oh, I remember that.

I remember that. Oh, I got to get a Jam Man. We started doing that and then every band had a jam man. Oh, don't take credit. Oh, this is years ago. This is years ago. This statute of limitations is over, but I do take credit. Okay, there's a...

There's a mic input? Yeah, it's pretty cool, man. It was like, you could... You could put a mic in there. You could run a stereo, whatever, into there. A memory card. And a stereo. Okay.

Yeah, it's got, like, external switches, too. So you can have, like, more control when you're live. Like, because we would do all samples for Forever and I Am King and stuff like that live. No playback, nothing. Dude, that's sick. Every sound was on that. No. Yes.

Sometimes five, ten sounds a song. So I'm scrolling through one to ten for I am king, you know? It's like, br-r-hr. I'm hitting that with my foot. and then in a split second I got to change it over to the next sample you know so it was a lot of dancing and that's why I got into the computer and the scents

because it became too much to do with my feet you know I remember how crazy that wasn't sometimes we were playing it was like ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma ma'am and he would just yeah sometimes the wrong thing comes up a one more thought on a pedal you're fucked yeah oh dude yeah

that used to happen like every show I heard someone call that a shout out to Mike from in Gabis he said the term spill in the paint I was like it's true. It's just like this loud noise. Oh, dude. I can't tell you how many times it's happened when, like, I used to run these vocal effects with my feet.

And there was a vocal. That's a terrible idea. You're telling me. There was no other option. So there was, like, a couple that were, like, insane. Where I'm like, ooh! Like, shuddering and, like, distorted. And he would be, like, in the middle of a speech, like, dead silent.

And I would, like, be, like, adjusting my stuff and I'd hit the wrong switch and just in the middle of dead silence it turns on. I hope you guys will buy merch. And then I was like, and then I'd have to wait for him to like finish his word. He was like a bloody head doing that. Dude, that's so funny. Dude, you know what, Arthur, Arthur from, uh, Arthur Rizig, is that I to use it? Our fucking boy, he's like a killer producer. I mean, he, he did like, what records is he done so many? I mean, everything from like he helped us to Ghost Main to he does tons of metal stuff

he's done like his band is called Summerlands you ever heard them or Eternal Champion to fucking killer bands he was also in a band called War Hungry those are hardcore band and he plays in Cold World but I say all this to say he's a pedal genius and I saw in the latest like cold world video they played in Brooklyn

you know they would always play and they never have the fucking samples and it just be like okay which I mean I get but we kind of fucked it up he has the samples going but he has a pedal and I'm sure you already know about this, but where he can tap the tempo in right before the sample comes on

and the sample will be that tempo. So he was fucking rocking all the samples around the time. He would run back there and just like, and it would, my life, my life, my life. It's fine. So it was fucking awesome. Dude, this guy's one of the gods of metal.

People need to know about this guy. They do already. They do. Check this out. This is my boy, Arthur. He's fucking produced every cool metal record that's come out in the past, fucking five years

former Ozzy Osmore Shreder No I don't think that's true No I think he was working with somebody that was Yeah I'm sick Adjacent to Ozy he's done a lot of like more Extreme metal black metal and what the fuck is it I don't even know it's all a small circle man

Power Trip we did all the power trip records Sick Yeah pre Inquisition Yeah Simerlands here you go He did a so titled He did He did

Yeah, he's not a lot. So he's God. Hmm. Sick. Well, one thing that I appreciate about your band is you definitely, you walk, you walk. It's cool. It's fair. Got to.

So I go, I start this conversation now because we go back to your live streams. So what, you just have ideas. I'm trying to get this straight and laid out. You have ideas. You talk about it. You don't see eye, I think you figure out how to do it. so you just don't care about the outcome we do

I mean we care about the outcome but it's not going to affect what we do we're very like the type of said it you just fucking said it that's sick we're the type of people that we pontificate a lot so there is lots of I'm not going to act like we're these like stoic warriors who march

forward it's like it's not true we talk about everything every possible ABCD EFG ad nauseum but we end up coming back around always to let's just do what we were what we were intending on doing and like learn from constructive criticism for sure or learn from like things that maybe two years later

we don't think really work, you know? But you got to keep building your own beast unless you're just like, what's the point? Like literally why in 2023 would you be in like a band, like a heavy like music band? If you're not going to try to like do your own thing, like other than just to have something to do, I mean, like, I don't see, for me, there's literally no purpose other than that.

So, you know, they kind of answers itself. But we definitely, we think about everything. We definitely, we're not impervious to like, you know, criticism or concern. But, I mean, I'm not sure, like, your band, you guys realize, like, like, the risk taking muscle is a rare, is a very rare thing. Because, because your career could be taken away in a song or, or, or, or, you know, record. Everything that you built, I mean, your whole career, I mean, that she can go

away. Yeah, we go up and down. I mean, we've done many things that, you know, were received okay, and some things that were received very well and everything in between, but I mean, I love every record we've made. There's not one record we have where I go, like, damn, like, man, we took

a misstep. The only missteps I feel we've taken sometimes are like in the way we've presented certain things, or maybe the time we've presented, it or the order or how the message was conveyed. Like if I, a lot of times I'll maybe beat myself up like I didn't convey it properly. Like I didn't, I didn't speak it properly or like or, you know, but what in what we actually do like the records, like I fucking love the records.

I mean, I love them all. Well, you definitely see it and hear it. It's cool. It's real, man. I appreciate that a lot. I really do. And I know you have, you guys paved the way for a lot of shit. And like I even told you guys this back when I met you, like the style of music that you basically created or had a hand in creating.

It wasn't like the style that I knew growing up, but you knew even meeting you guys like that you were the OGs. You know, like you were on the front lines of creating something that's now like this fucking giant thing that everybody does. You know, like literally it's crazy. So a lot of respect to you guys. And I talk to a singer all the time. He's a great dude. Eddie. Yeah.

It's a great guy. Yeah, always felt the love from you guys since the first thing we, the first thing we did together. We did those festivals and. Yeah, we, we fucking did that like self-toddle record. I don't know why, but when I was listening to your band, it's kind of, it's a spark. You know, so now you listen to your record. It just sparks emotions and memories, I could hear like, this is a band. They're playing real music and paving their own way.

And they're on their front lines, which is not a lot of bands to see that. Thank you, man. They don't know that bands can say that they'll pretend that they are, but they're not. That's why we don't get along with a lot of bands. I noticed that. And I've heard people talk, not like bad about you, but I'll hear like, you know, you're at catering or something. But in my mind, I'm like, they're fucking doing their own thing. Who cares?

Wait, what did you hear about us at catering? I heard that. I hear you guys are standoffish. Yeah, that's accurate. It depends. I mean, it really does depend. If you know us, like, we're honestly not to, like, do our own horns, but I think we're super cool. people like we're easy pretty easy to get along with if you know us like sure but uh i think getting sometimes

we've kind of kept that first bubble up a little bit and there's elements of that that i do regret there's elements of it that i'm yeah for sure i mean i dude i'm i'm trying to i really am always in my heart trying to be a better person in some kind of way not on some like fucking hollier than now shit but how do you i'm 30 now 30 okay yeah so we get in there right so i don't like regret But there's a lot of people that we kept out that way that I'm glad we kept out because there's a lot of friend to alls, a lot of people, a lot of fingers in the pie, a lot of people who are your, and we had many of them when we put out records that were super cool. Hey, buddy, happy birthday.

You know what I mean? It's like, the next record comes out, where's the happy birthday? And then the next, maybe you have a hot song, hey, buddy, happy birthday, you know. You get what I'm saying? One, you get them. I bet when you started this podcast and this podcast started going, did you start getting a lot more fucking happy birthdays again. I bet you did. So there's some of that that I'm pleased that we've done in keeping it insulated, keeping some worms and rats out of it. But there's other times where,

dude, like one of my closest guys, I'll just tell the story, but one of our boys is this dude fucking stevis, and he was in the band The Chariot and like he was in the band The Fever. And I didn't really fuck with them, right? I thought they were kind of whack at the time. I actually think they're all fucking cool now. Like we're all, we've got along with all of them. But at the time, I remember he came up to me, and he tells the story. You can ask him because it's psychotic. But we were at catering. Nice.

He came up to me and said something, and I felt in my heart truly that the only way I could be friends with this man is if I told him like straight up like, brother, I do not fuck with your shit. I'm just telling you because I don't want you to just find that out later or something like, you know, we'd brother down. Is it cool? It's kind of low. But at the time, I really felt in my heart like that's what I had to do. And I told him, I was like, I, you guys are mad, whack, but like, I'm down to chill. And he always tells me that story.

He's like, at the time, I was like, I didn't know what to do. Like, I felt bullied. He was like, I didn't know whether to fight you or to like, what, or to be a friend or whatever. And so then we hit it off became buddies. That I regret. I should have just went to him and been cool, like, what the fuck he's wrong with me? And we did do things like that at different times. So, you know, but at the same time, man, here's the thing about us.

I really do think a lot of this shit that comes out is whack. I don't know what to do about it. It's like a disease. It's like a sickness. I so badly want to see it and like it. I so badly want to see these bands blow up and be psyched about it. And on a personal level, I actually am. I literally am happy for them and their families and their shit.

But they, in my heart, which is probably why I just need to get out of this metal shit, they are, they've ruined it. Like, to me, they've made it whack. like the shit that's popular in metal to me sucks so it puts me in a bad spot what am I supposed to do you know what I mean like I'm cool with all of them

but there was a time where I felt that it had to be done and said now I don't feel that way but it just puts you in a corner where it's like you want to be honest and you want to be real and you don't want to be a fucking dick

but you also don't want to be saying to your buddies this band fucking sucks and then they come up and you're like, hey, buddy, what's going on? Like, to me, it's like, well... Tom, Tom, that they still suck, it's fine. Not anymore, I won't do that anymore.

No? Come on. That was a mistake. It was a mistake. But, hey, I'm just saying. I am king's back, dude, come on. Hey, dude. She's down, see, he's happy about it. It didn't help.

But I'll just say, so I get where people are coming from with that. I do. But we also have a lot of great buddies in bands and great buddies in this whole ecosystem that are, like, it's not a lot, but that are friends for life that we, I will literally do whatever for that we really fucking stick tight to and you know it's tough there we go there's Finn punk rock MBA

does modern metal suck I mean I mean listen man people like it man hey and guess what a couple years ago I used to go and say well my hypothesis was this shit

has a ceiling because these aren't really like songs these are just basically fucking sounds that are combined to make something, and it'll get popular, but it has a ceiling. It can't get to a certain level because people won't need, like, the songs.

He just hit the pen. And I was wrong. A lot of these bands did get popular as fuck. They blew that shit up. So guess what? Hypothesis, incorrect. Turns out I'm just alone in the corner. So my bad, but I still don't like it.

Well, I mean, this was a thought and feeling I had when I was listening to your band, And I was, this was after I saw the acoustic stream. And I was like, okay, this is fucking sick. And then it kind of made, this really tied things in a different way. I'm like, this, this, this could, this could be something that it's, there's like a slow longevity to it. Because I question, I don't care how popular band. I've seen a band play down the street sold out as fuck.

And then a few years later. Dude. So it's like, so what is longevity? I don't really care about like, I don't even, I don't even care you. you've been around for 10 years. Like, just like, what is the true long chevy?

Because bands, because shit happens. Bams could break it in any moment. You don't really know. No one knows. Yeah. No, dude, one thing I'm grateful for is on our journey.

We have had some good ups, but we haven't had such a high up where we were crushing every show, selling out a tour that like, it rocked us when we went down a little bit. Like, it's always been like, you know, it's been up for sure.

But it's never, it wasn't like, oh, one day we're playing 200. now we're playing $1,000, now we're playing $5,000. We never did that. It was like $200, $250, $300, $1,000, $700. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, it makes you a little more, you know, it keeps you a little more together.

It does. Yeah, I mean, I think we all- This show fucking rocked, bro. This is one of the best times of my fucking life right here. Our quest. Yeah. Fucking hell dude is crazy. See, this has to give you, like,

like a good moment, a good, a good, uh, memory because, you know, think back to like, oh, wait, are we going to a fucking tour again? Are we coming back? Yeah. Oh, wait. Then you do a stream. Oh, wait. It's a bang fucking over now. Yeah. And then you get broken. Then you have, you have these moments where you kind of get like the, like you get that light. It happens, you know. Dude. Yeah. This one, I came out. You know I was jacked up busted that mic on my head. Color right away. Yes. Time of my fucking life. That's my boy, Joe. I'm looking over. He's fucking doing crazy shit. I'm like, just me and my best friend going hard.

And people are going nutty. We got the visuals. This was my ideal show because it was like no rules, chaos, but we had our show. We had the visuals. We could do our art. It was like art meets chaos. And that's like our ultimate goal. Damn.

See, I don't let bands help. I'm telling you guys. I don't let bands can do that, man. It's cool. I appreciate that. I didn't know you even fuck with us like that, to be honest. So I appreciate that. Honestly, today.

I mean, it's starting. today. God damn, man. Get some other people on board. Let's fucking go. Dude, it takes time. If you put us in a situation like this where it's just like we have any sort of visual aid or like

any kind of production, I mean, it's like we're that's where we thrive, you know? It's like that real to create an experience, you know? Totally. It's like you want to get, you want to get sick first in front of nobody in front of no production. Get sick there for a while.

Oh yeah. And then do that for years. When you're sick there, then you add the shit. It's just like this over the top. It's not a, where most bands, I won't say names, but they use it as a crutch. Yeah. And guess what the worst part is about that? It's a crutch, and the shit they do on the screens

is so whack anyway. It's like you don't even put any effort into that either. I'm scared to do these screens. We do this, but we got to make sure it's like, it has like purpose behind it. Like, this like. I love making that shit. He hates.

He loves doing it. it too, but he hates the process because he has some, he's the one who actually has to fucking work so hard. But I, I love it. It makes me fucking, oh my gosh. This, dude, if people ask me like, what's your ideal? That looks fucking sick. It was sick. This is my ideal, like, show we ever played, honestly. Where was this? In London this past summer. Fuck. It's a badass. Or not London, Manchester. My bad. It's like an underground, like, warehouse. It's like a blade rave warehouse that had like 10,000 people in it. Damn. And it was like, us and death grips and fucking my boys fucking trapped under ice and all the young hardcore bands

who were all fucking killing it they were all so good it was fucking great that's incredible and by the way i love where hardcore's at when i'm more talking about like metal and stuff like that that's to me different i think hardcore's in a great spot so i'm i think a lot of that that stuff's rocking you have a band like tsunami like a play a fucking small-ass corner and then now there's who's going yeah dude it's going they're rocking i never met them i I don't really know them like that, but they're going. I know the drain a little bit, the singer, he's rocking, he's killing it. They're absolutely murdering it.

So, yeah, there's, and, you know, a lot of bands, Vane. We came up with them for sure and put them on a lot of tours at the beginning. And they rock it and there's many. I was looking at your Wikipedia. And I like going towards the members section. I never seen a more complex. Yeah, what does it even say? Like, it's like, okay, it's like, who does what win?

Oh, God, it's probably all fucking. It's crazy. What does it say? It's cool, man. We've had the same, like, it's got like the kids from high school in it. Okay, go, okay, go to their wicking and go, go, go down. Holy shit.

Lower? Oh, yeah, get the graph. What the fuck? They're not wrong. They're not wrong. Somebody's a genius who made that. Is this right? Damn, dude, that is right.

Wow. Wow. Wow. Who made this? You see those straight lines? You got Riba, Eric, Jamie. Joe Goldman counts too because he was there for all that beginning stuff. Why does my line look like a teenager's jiu-suitzobo? Because you changed. Because you guys changed shit.

That's so accurate. You're a genius who said that. I saw it. I'm like, I don't even know what to say. Dude. Oh, I get it. It's like my keyboards and stuff. I'll explain it when we were in high school, you know, the other two people on there, they were like high school kids with us that like were in and out you know like and they were both they're both I haven't seen them in a minute but they were both awesome um and but then it was like when we you know

became like a band like an actual band of older teenagers yes it's been the same people uh Dom wasn't there but if you can do about half that grid he was on tour with us you know so but damn whoever made that man did respect it I'm about to donate 275 just for you man hit the wiki donate for that It's sick. So yeah, you, yeah, Jamie, Eric Shade and Reba, but his OGs. And Joe was there, too. Joe was in the crowd selling the merch. Like, Joe was always there since day one.

Joe was at practice, I mean, so. And he was in our other bands and, like, we would all play together. Yeah, he's also been on every record. So in 2020, like, 11 when he joined, we were like, we just graduated high school. We were all 17 years old. That's pretty early. Yeah. What is he serious?

Yeah. Damn, dude. Yeah. What is, this band start when you're in what? Like a freshman? Ninth grade. Yeah, nice. Ninth grade.

I had a band before that, too. I thought we were going to be a fucking goddamn green day, but it didn't turn out. No. No. We have a... Yeah, dude. It was pretty fire. We played shows with, like, 40-year-old men, like, all the time.

And we were in, like, sixth grade, though, so that was cool. You got... You were always in bands then. I was. Yeah. Fuck. And what's crazy is, Jimmy, you've had a second chance of life because you're... You started.

of playing drums, which as people the drummers know, it's a terrible idea. And now you're not playing drums anymore. Fucking hate drums, dude. You know how lucky you are? I'm free. That is so... That's lucky. Shade, didn't you push

me to just do vocals full-time? Oh yeah. I was super into that. Because I... Don't you fucking search that over there. Watching them. God damn it. Yeah, that video right there. This son of a bitch. All those videos, you know, it's like, that was always our biggest crutch was just like, we had no frontman, you know, like we're touring with terror and everything, it's like, we got no front man. Literally, you have a record, everyone's doing vocals.

Yeah. Every one can sing along, though, but everyone knows the words. Interesting. You know what I'm saying? So to me, it was like, that was such like the next evolution, because like every record we had changed their lineup a little bit. This is when we were starting to get over. I'm sorry for con you all sweaty. So did you?

We're all sweaty. So did you have a great here? You look like a fucking God here. Did you see the little cut of the years? This was like the Dickies and tucked in tank era. You look handsome. I look like a piece of shit. This is when we were starting to get over.

This is when shit was getting going. Really? Oh, that's it. It was getting going. We had 30 people in a VFW. No, you don't remember. We drove out to play the life and death deal when we were playing early.

And it was like all the hardcore bands were on it. And we played as like a little special. Dude, people were going off. Dude, this. I do remember this. This amount of moshing. was like the Super Bowl at this time for us. Yeah, we were not that hard.

No, we were hard. This is, we were hard. But I'm saying, I am king versus like flower mouth. This is in between, yeah. Yeah, like, compared to like the I am king mosh that was like, we had become accustomed to it to a certain level of violence at that point. Zero, yeah. Oh my goodness.

Okay, so Shade, did you have like the idea of your head? Okay, I'm just going to ask them. I'm to tell him Well, I think he was talking about it And we were, I think it mainly stemmed from like I didn't want, we wanted to write the best music we could And I wanted him to write the best vocals he could and everything And it was like, I don't want you to have to think about

If you can sing and play this part at all I don't want you to worry about that I think that's just dumb you know, it's like And I had a meltdown on the Slipknot tour Yes, let's okay, let's hear about the meltdown Do you remember that one day? So we did that's just. The slip almonds.

Yeah. So we did the slip knot tour for like three days or something in Europe. And like in my head, I was like, I swear to God if you don't go off these videos. In my head, I was like, I'm, we're going to, we have to kill this. Like this is it. Like, their arena shows. Like we have to literally be the greatest band that ever lived at these shows was Slipknot, right? And we played the first one, dude.

And we sucked so fucking bad. And the crowd was so not into it. or maybe it was the second one. They weren't into it at any of them, but the second one, it was bad. And this was the only time I've done this. And I,

this is not the type of shit that I do. But I, like, had a whole, like, go in the backstage and, like, start fucking shit up, like meltdown. And I was just, like, screaming, like,

no, not, it wasn't this tour, but yeah, we did this. This was like, we got a little bite, like a little bit earlier. But,

um, I was just screaming like, this, I felt like this is my, chance and we've blown it. Like we are not, well, I've gone around and told everybody this is what we're going to do. This is how

good we are. And we weren't. And so when you face that, you know, it bursted a bubble in my head. And then the next day I had to give everybody a big apology, which I did as well. But, um, yeah, I just fucking flipped out.

And then that let part of it because I was like, I need, we need to connect. When we play with these big crowds, we need to connect. I'm back here. I can't connect. I'm behind all these fucking drums. Like, I'm a, God, it's, when you're in these those big rooms and you're doing that,

all of a sudden, you're a damn dumbass. You know what I'm saying? It's not so cool anymore. It's like, I'm back here behind all this shit. It's like, I need to get out there. And then, you know, but I wasn't sure. So he fucking clicked it all in for us. It's the way that you play like this second show is like, fuck, we've fucked it up.

Everything was fucked up. It was like, the crowd wasn't. good for us. People were fucking shit up on stage. No one was like, we had just traveled, fucking, you know, however many hours, everybody's tired. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Like, I don't care, dude, if we put our shit out and nobody buys it. I don't care if we play our shows and nobody comes. If we get up there, we have to be the best. That is really how I feel in my heart. Like, we have to deliver. If not, what am I going around saying and doing? What is this life I'm living? I need to do something else. That's it. I can't control

you're going to show up or if you think what we're doing is cool or if we're like riding the wave at the time. I really can't. But I can control if we're fucking good up there. And if we're not, it just puts me, I can, I deal with it a lot better now, but there was an era where like I would just feel like

I'm wasting my life. You know what I'm saying? Sometimes you'll, you're doing everything right, but some good shows are not meant to be had. You're right. That's what I need to think. It's weird, dude. I've learned that now. It sucks. I mean

I'm the, I'm the, I'm the, I might be the Jimmy in the band, this obsessive and this fucking, this has to be perfect. Gone saying you fucks. It's just some, it's just not there sometimes. I mean, we used to even do that stuff for shows in front of 15 people. I mean, it was like, of course, we always do it. It's like, you fucking,

you ring out over the cutoff. Oh, I used to do that a lot. I, that's when we talk about regrets. Yeah. I regret that a little bit, because I used to, I used to like, look Joe in the eyes, like, while we were playing. And I'm like, I will fucking kill me. I swear to God. Like, I swear to God, if you ring over this fucking part, I, like, we're both going to die tonight. Oh, my God.

And it was fine. We're boys. But you should do that. It's not the right thing to do. Like, and I would do stuff like that, you know, because, but it came out of, it comes out of us wanting to be great. But either way, it's still like, it's stupid. That's, that's being young type shit, you know. You get, I think that's something you need to learn how to deal with better.

You just have, you're all right? I just fucking. Oh, I thought you got shocked, brother. What the fuck? Take his drink away. I think we need to, we need a round three, dude. We all deal with that. I think we all feel the same about all that stuff when it happens.

We all deal with it differently. I've definitely, though, chilled out. I mean, I don't. Good. Yeah, it's not the right thing to do. So what? So you're freaking out. What are you doing, Shade?

What am I doing during when he's freaking out? just trying desperately trying to not escalate the situation you know and just kind of like yeah man you're right man or in another scenario i'm like fuck you fuck you basically go fuck yourself and then i just walk away but uh he's not wrong i mean usually with that i think i think that situation you um chucked a thing of almonds and i was like we should talk about this later man yeah now you can't chuck stuff like I've never like I don't like how that's the only time I've ever done like something like that anything else would just be like usually on stage I'll just look at like him or or Dom or Joan I'm like I mean like because I feel so fucking because we have so much adrenaline too I'm sure you've been through that I get that's the thing yeah all that adrenaline and it's also like like you said been in the same band since we're ninth grade it's all we know it's like this is our business you know whether whether it's you know, a creative endeavor or not.

It's like this is our lives, you know, so. It is. It feels like life or death a lot of time. I'm sorry for coming off. But it is, though. It is, though, because you, you sacrifice so much and so much time, and you're, you either leave home,

if you're back in a day, you leave home with negative money, and then, and then, and then the very thing that you're leaving all that behind for, like you, like you don't, you don't execute.

It's, it's, it's, it's a hard put to swallow, man. Still, still. So is. Now it's like as long as we put the work in In the room, I'm happy. As long as we put the practice in the work in. Yeah, yeah.

And I'm pleased. But if we don't, then, you know, being up front has also really taught me how good these guys really are and how much, how many things you have to deal with up there. Also, he can't watch us all like for every second of the show anymore. Now that he's not behind the drums. He used to watch us all every second.

And now we can't do that. I'm back there. There's nothing else to look at, you know. Now we can't do that. Bury me softly. Oh my goodness. I've always been curious. Like, where, like, what does that come from, man?

Like, the, like, that obsessiveness, that just, like, that drive that, like, and then, then when we get older, it's like, okay, now you won't leave. Like, what, what is that? I, I definitely feel like I still have the drive. You have the drive, too. Dude, you got to survive in this fucking world. We got this little sliver of a shit. to do something that we want to do as like a life.

To me, it's like that's so, like, that's insane that we even get these opportunities. And we've worked hard for them, but when, like, you got to take it. You got to go. Like, what the fuck? You know what I mean? It's a be crazy not to situation. So when people don't want to or people are different, it can be frustrating because I don't ever feel like I don't want to push forward.

That doesn't mean I want to play this every show or it's not aimless, but I want to be doing something pretty much 95% of the time. You know what I mean? And not everybody really feels like that. He's kind of similar to me in that way. Yeah. I think it's about having confidence in yourself too. I think he's always had that in himself.

He's always been like, I'm going to be in a band and it's going to be badass, you know. And I wasn't like that in high school. I was just like, I'm along for the ride, you know, It just, it became that. But now it's definitely just like this self-belief kind of thing where it's like, you know, I know that our work ethic that we've built through the band is strong. And I can outwork and he can outwork anybody you put next to us, you know? And it's like that combined with what I think we have great creative vision and ideas and stuff.

And I think it's a really just strong unit, you know, I just have ultimate faith in any endeavor that we do. And that's why it's like, like we mentioned before about like taking, smell in the roses, like kind of realizing like the gravity of situation when you're in it. Code Orange doesn't really do that because we're always moving the goalpost a little bit and we're always working so hard in the moment, especially for those big moments. It's always like everyone's on board making this 100%, like no matter what, Every little thing that needs done, like, Joe, you know, go build the stage.

Dom, build the props. Shade, make the content, do whatever. You know, everyone's on board. So it's like no one has time to think, really. It wasn't until after when sometimes, especially when something's recorded. And I'm like, damn, though, that show was badass. It's special, man. Yeah.

And that's, I think, led to in the past a little bit of what you were talking about, where we have a little bit of standoffish or whatever. because I feel like we definitely, and this is another thing that I've definitely tried to work on, is like it can lead to a little bit of bitterness when you're kind of like, you know what you're putting in

and you really kind of know what somebody else is putting in and what they're producing, and you're just kind of like, you don't want to be a part of patting that on the back because you already feel like everybody's patting that on the back already. So it's like, I don't need to be a part of it.

You guys can pat this shit on the back all you want, but I know like what's the real score. But that's, that's not a good way to live. So you got to just fucking worry about your damn self. You know what I mean? So I think that's another part of getting older is like figuring that out.

But yeah, that's that's led to us sometimes keeping up a veil. Yeah. It's a hard balance knowing when I, it's to me, it's a business. You know, it's a lot of fake people. It's fake as fuck. Do you have feel that way?

Like do you have that? Have you had those kind of experiences? It's, it's, it's a everyday balance. I'll be real. It's every day bounce. Every scenario is different. I go over here. I go to a lot of shows. That's awesome.

And it's knowing. One, for sure, I just know who I hang out with in my spare time is that. You know, it's just knowing. But you can't just be an asshole. I mean,

I don't want to be as playing an asshole. No, for sure. And like, and like, yeah, absolutely. But you still want to be yourself. Exactly. You know,

so, yeah, it's an ongoing thing. There's nobody that's ever come up to me like in earnest. Like, hey, what's up? And I've like,

cold-shouldered them. The only like cold shoulders we've given where it are usually like if there's already a little bit of a vibe, then we'll turn it up. You know, we're not gonna, we're not gonna, we're not gonna be the ones to like, you know, you know what I'm saying? We're also not like a party band at all. We don't really party or nothing. No one in the band really drinks or smokes or anything besides me. So it's, you remember my story with with your band a funny one? No. Your singer put me in the worst situation ever with all y'all. You don't remember this? No, what happened? Dude.

So we're doing this photo shoot together, right? And y'all would just put that record out and it's cool. All the acceptable? The one people were like hating on and like making it like a, which was like to me, I really, I didn't like that at all. Like that's another thing. I would never fucking bandwagon on some shit like that. That was whack and stupid. And people were, and so we were talking about it.

And he was saying, man, like, well, you can cut this out if you don't like it. He was basically saying, man, like, we're thinking about basically doing a tour because this other album is coming on anniversary where we don't really do that shit. And we do like the old shit because people aren't feeling the new shit, blah, blah, blah. And I said to him, I was like, brother, don't you bitch out. I was like, you get up there and you go do that shit. And he was like, what's going to tell my band that? And I was like, I don't know you. But all right.

he parades me back there to a couple of you guys. Really? And he goes, tell them what you were telling me about not bitching out. Fucking singers, dude. And I was like, Eddie, fucking. And I said what I said. And then I don't know who it was. It might have been you or it might have been your other guitar player with a beard.

He's very nice guy. Yeah, he's nice. He's fucking awesome. He looked at me like, okay. And I was just like, damn, man. Dude, I wasn't even trying to be in this situation. You know? I wasn't even going to be here today.

So good. It was a very office space. situation, or no clerks, rather. That's sick. So he fucked me over, but he's cool, though. Oh my gosh, dude, that's, I didn't know that. It's cool. I was like, don't, I was like, dude, no, fuck them.

And he was like, but I feel him, like I get it. But he was just like, dude, like, it's not what they want to hear. I was like, dude, don't tell me that. I don't want to hear that. I want to see, you get up there and you do it. And we see what happens. But I don't know what happened out of that. This, dude,

fuck that. I hated that. And again, Once again, just like you don't really like, you're kind of just coming on to us. Like, I've always known about you guys, but we didn't grow up on the kind of music y'all play at all. You know what I mean? So it was just left field for us. I knew that you guys,

I always knew you guys were credible and you guys, like, were, like, leaders in your field and that there was a lot of connections to hardcore and this sort of thing. But we just didn't come from that side of it. So, but I always had respect. So it was like when the disc dropped and people were, like, I don't hate on bands

who get hated on. I hate on bands who are fucking popular because fuck them. Am I right, brother? That's it. Yeah, fuck yeah, dude. A couple things, this record did. Real quick, I'll condense to go back to you guys. One, this fulker showed me who are real friends are.

Bands, industry, friends at home that showed me who are the real motherfuckers. And then when they came back around, I have tabs in the back of my head. My man. My man. So it's a weird thing. But you kind of, you're cordial, but I know what happened when that record came out and we weren't cool anymore.

Like people just fucking whew. And then now there's... And think about this, not to get personal on your shit. But think about what you guys went through. And think about how people still treated you that way. Even when you made... I know it wasn't like immediately after anything, but it wasn't that far.

Sure. And the way you were treated by people after what you just went through something that people can't even like understand like how that must fucking feel that adds to it even more it's like people are like

it's disgusting you know what I'm saying so dude I mean yeah it gets it gets crazy like you bring up the tragedy so when Mitch died there's so with Eddie back there's the industry like bands take the opportunity

okay maybe we could this art time to be like the top in the yeah that scene It's, it's, it's a, it's a very competitive, uh, scene. I used to get butt hurt, but now I'm like, you know, this is way it is, but, but what, Hey man, shout out to all the bands who make it big and get going and they're playing big shit. Like, you know, respect to them. No, no, fuck them.

No, man, we respect like, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. We need a career. I mean, God damn. Oh, I'm fucking. I'm kidding, man. But yeah, that, that record gave me a lot of perspective, and I just, I just respect bands that art and, themselves, they're real as people,

and they put out the music that they want. Thank you, man. I've always taken you guys that way as well. You know, like you do what you're going to do, and it's what you're going to do. And a lot of people rock, I feel like you had a lot of fans that rock through that whole shit. Oh, yeah, of course.

A lot. There's always like the people that always will rock with you, then there's the, you know, but the loud, you know. The birthdays, the happy birthday stop. That's how I always think of it. Just search happy birthday on your phone from like every year. You can figure out how cool you were. Dude, what's weird is that now we're kind of coming back.

And obviously, I mean, I won't talk about it, but obviously you can only assume that this is going on now. There's another circle of people. And that's my version of being standoffish. I could, I could, I'm not smart. I'm an idiot. But one thing I do have is I can, I'm 38 also. I could smell bullshit.

Yeah. And I could sense it. So when there's someone coming in the circle and there weren't, s-s-st-t-shirt, but I'm like, where were you five years ago? Yeah. Rocking Thai art stuff. Exactly.

And now they're not wearing their teas no more. It's a weird, like... It goes in a row. It goes... It just goes around and around. I'm like, okay, I'm this very... I'm very picky who I let in the circle. Not only my circle.

I literally do. I have to fight who gets in the suicide circle. Because my guys are very social. They're very nice. Eddie's nice, Mark, and they're a little bit too nice. And they just let... We know. all about that.

They say everybody in, I'm like, I had some of, some shows, I'm yelling at people. Yeah. It's just, like, you got, okay, now I have to tell the guys, okay, it's cool you want to hang around them. It's cool, but just,

just be a little bit more, more mindful what you say around them, and know, no, know who they are and what and what they are. Yeah, fucking hold it down, dude. That's it. Exactly. Like, I agree.

The real shall know, and that's just how it goes. That's a poem by me. That just real. It's cool. Yeah. Is that funny, no matter what kind of stuff.

follow the band is or what the band's going through. Like you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll, you'll just respect what they're doing if you know that's them. I think,

for me, yeah, I feel that way, for the most part. I mean, for me, if the music is so, I mean,

most of the time I can tell. It can get tough when you're, I can always tell outside of my bubble of heavy music. You know what I mean? In the heavy music bubble, there's so much like, you know,

like, we know people and we know this guy and we know this band. We saw this, they used to be in this band. and they used to wear this shit, you know, and it can kind of pollute your vision of what's really going on. So I won't act

like I always have clarity on all that, like 100%, but when it comes to other styles, I feel like I can pick it. You know what I mean? What is that? Because you fucking smell it. It's weird.

So you just sense it. I don't know what it is. Isn't it the worst when you got one of your boys who just can't smell it at all? And you just look at them, they're like, this guy's cool. And you're literally like, what that is my band in a nutshell. Dude. God bless them all.

I love them. They're social. They make our band look nice. I love them. But sometimes they bring people in. I'm like, who the fuck is Hawkins to right now? Yeah. They don't know what fuck about you.

They didn't know what about you at all. We were broke. And where were there? Exactly. Did you're right? No, I mean, but it's a dark feeling when you just look at one of your boys and they're just like cracking up like with some fucking. some son of a bitch it's not a good feeling

but you gotta just or you know stay away dude I understood why some people in bands turn into assholes because that is a mechanism which I personally won't use

I'm learning how to do other ways to keep people away dude there's a lot of fucking worms in this biz there's a lot of parasites you know we got a little parasite on our album cover

you know that yeah as you can see it's like one of the metaphors of the album it's like a parasitic worm attached to the back of like a like a cricket and like the crickets on the other side and that's kind of the worm it's like controlling its host you know there's a lot of people uh in this world uh of heavy music especially that are just trying to leach on and suck everything they can get out there's the cricket oh shit so it like wraps around to the other side of the owl cover but uh that's sick and they they they want to be they want to be you they want to be inside of you and and you know it's great make your calls for you so you got to can't let it happen bob and weave it you can't you can't let it happen dude you got you got to let it stop it you know what how how was it so did you work with steppe albini yes how is that that's fucking sick dude it was awesome man it was

just like to be with a guy like that and have him be like so open to like our process was just like incredible it was he was so chill it was like you can go to like a local guy and he'll be like this is how we do it we do it this way yeah you're doing it this way my way and then you go to a million dollar legend albini and he's like however you want to do it man it's your it's your record and i'm just like thank you bro and it was best experience we've ever had recording i think it was it was awesome typically we will do stuff very very compartmentalized even down to the drums where it's like Were you guys all in the same room?

We did a lot of the record live Like most of the record The instruments is a live performance And then we took it and did our thing to it For a while, you know But like the chunk of the raw band Is all in the room We did these like very like

These demos that were super You know, tracked out like To the T Like roadmaps And then we basically just replaced everything So it was like easy to kind of slide things in and out And we had sessions and everything. We had sessions and everything

thing just like that plotted out for like the past year that we had working on these demos and it was basically like you know we had all the tracks isolated and it was like we need to replace this this and this and it's like all these drums and everything but we're keeping this and it's like Steve Steve was like that all sounds good didn't really want to know about it yeah he was just like what do you want me to do and then his engineer was just like super helpful and knew exactly what was what was going on and what to do so it was just great but it was it was really different because Normally we do everything separate, you know. It's like everyone's got their own days, you know?

Yeah. But this was like five days. Everyone's tracking at the same time. But it's all, you know, recorded in an isolated way. And it was just... He did that part very well. He kept the isolation somehow, like very well while we were all still together. He's a master of the room, the room dynamics and the sonics and keeping things isolated and things like that.

It's really crazy, actually. Because it's so simple. It's not, he's not doing crazy stuff. It's like, he's like, less is more pretty much, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, just listen to Nirvana, dude.

That vibe, man. Well, I walked in and I saw the drums and he had like three mics on the drums. And I was like, you're serious? Yeah. I was like, can we get a snare bottom mic? And he was like, yeah, if you want. I was like, yeah, that'd be great. The other crazy part is that, like, when we were growing up,

we worked with Kurt Ballou. Yeah. And a lot from Converge. And he acts, he's very. Albini, like in his own way. Like, his vibe is very Albany. I don't know if he was like, if they're really just similar or maybe like he grew up, like, I don't know what it is.

But it was almost like we got like al-Beany like twice, like two bookend Albany's. Like it was like, look, there's a, there's Kurt. Oh, yeah. So there's Kurt. He's got the Albany glasses too, you know, in there. But yeah, so it was just kind of like weird to see like al-Bini would do stuff. And I was like, that's very like something Kurt would do. it was weird

but we had Kurt first you know yeah what Kurt did the first three records right oh two and a half we'll call it two and a half okay oh shit nice no I mean three not not dissing him at all he's the man no two and three four is like for but I gotta give my buddy Will Yip credit because oh yeah yeah he stepped in on forever

when Kurt was kind of like had to move on to something else and helped us like finish it all oh shit so yeah but no man Kurt's the man he rocks I haven't seen him in a minute but I got nothing but respect for him. He's a,

he's a legend. And this will, yep right here, this is one of my very good friends of life. And I think he's, we, I remember, we had some issues with the Kurt thing and it was a whole thing.

But we, I called him all. I was like, dude, me and Joe, we're going to drive up there. Like, can we drive up there like tomorrow?

We just work like all overnight. Because we had to finish this thing. We had to get back to Kurt in like a certain amount of time before he wiped the board, the physical board that had the record. And like, Riba had called Kurt and kind of like, begged him to like keep it for like an extra.

like a couple two days and so then will just like does what will does boom and he was in it all day and night hardest shout out but both of them work their ass off she looks like he's on a podcast with uh eloy who's that eliz Eli oh no uh u rm podcast i was probably jam that actually that's sick will's oh dude you gotta have will on here you know you know him

will putney will yep oh well no you should he's got so many great stories and he's so a genius. Where's he from? He's from Philly, Concha Hawken. He did all those records like title fight, Tiger's Jaw, like all that shit when that was coming out. He did all that kind of shit. And he's also done other stuff

like everything from blacklisted to now he does like more like pop punkling stuff. He played drums for Lauren Hill. He's done a lot of amazing stuff. Worked on our shit. Sick. Well, congrats that. Your record's out. Thanks, man.

What up? What a different time, like, literally, like, you're putting a record out in March. Like, you just record with Nick, which is a legendary producer. Just signed to a Metro label. You think you're all final all cylinders and it gets taken away. Yeah. It's taken a fucking away. It sucks.

And then now you get to put out a fucking, a proper. I'll say, though, in retrospect, I think that record was a little bit ahead of the time anyway. So I feel like, I don't feel, I feel like while there was a lot taken away momentum-wise, Just like I feel like this one we just put out It's also ahead of the time I really really do I think that we're just I mean this will sound dickheaded

But this is I feel whatever I feel that we're a little bit A year or two ahead of the zeitgeist Of this shit sometimes And I feel like the underneath record If it came out now Would crush like aesthetically Sonically what people are into

Some like more technical Like psychological Sci-fi like people love this shit And it's all over sprinkled over metal stuff I think if that drop now That would fucking crush but if it would have dropped then, it's hard to know, you know. But I never know.

I love it to death. I love them both, you know. Well, shit, did we miss anything? Okay. There you go, boom. This is his wrestling company. Check it out. NWA.

Old school. Yeah, what was it like where my ability? Which I saw you post a picture of him before I wanted to ask you. So you, it sounds like, is he like a mentor? He's my buddy now. Now, especially like we've kind of, I went and saw him like three days ago. was up at his crib and we were hanging out while he was recording some shit and

started off we had the same manager he sent the demos to him he was digging him he wanted to like getting involved and maybe some like just kind of hitting us with some thoughts type shit we figured that out we started that we started hitting it off

we started talking on the phone we started getting along he said come out we'll do some in person did it in person a couple nights he was working like all day he's a hard worker that's from yeah that's from then He was working all day And then at night We would come in and just work with him

For like a couple hours We did that a couple nights in a row And then... Tight Yeah, dude, I'm psyched on it And then yeah So then we kind of became friends since then And then yeah

I just saw him the other day And we were hanging out That's fucking sick That's hard dude Oh I need that That's a hard Oh dude That's hard

That should be up on your fucking jam space dude No man I gotta print that out You got the print out I got the gloves on That's sick Yeah So it's cool.

We all need mentors, man. Just to pick their brains. I know. I wish I had some more, to be honest. Same. Same person. I don't really have any for real. Like, I do in life, but in music.

Chris Varenna, we had work on our record underneath, and he was kind of like my production mentor. He taught me how to use pro tools and how to, like, program in a more old school kind of way and less of the new school way, you know? Search him up real quick. Yeah, Chris Verena. Yeah. He played drums and nine-inch nails in the first couple records.

He started the band with Tread. He's from like two hours from where we live too. Nice. They both are. He does his own music and always does remixes and does movie scores, video games. Yeah, worked for nine-inch Manson. Yeah. Through Downwards viral.

But yeah, he was like, he basically was my mentor on underneath. So it was like me and him were like doing all the programming, all the effects and all the you know more intricate production stuff editing and stuff like that and it was just an amazing experience he's my boy that's sick what was uh what was the big thing that you learned from him i mean it was like it was like everything dude it was just like the whole mentality of like creation you know where it's like you know really examining things in a different light and like looking at media and popular media and popular culture and taking like like like what's cool about it and you know reimagining it in your mind and and grabbing things that

fit that vibe where it's like you're taking movies that you like or whatever and sampling them and recontextualizing things and and on top of all that you know just like the straight production mindset where it's like um like a lot a lot of modern rap production and even metal production is like kind of sloppy in like the sense of like editing and fades and things like that and attention to detail and like phase of things and it's like he taught me all how to do it in a way that's like legit you know like that's like the way the pros do it and so i'm i'm really thankful for that from him because i watch some other guys work and i can see the difference you know between a really good engineer and a shitty engineer you know damn yeah that's that's not

it's an at a level when you know or you least you kind of know where it was going on. Yeah, because of him, I can just watch a guy out of computer and I can know what their thing is. Sometimes he'll just sit there, like, silent and I'm like, what's he doing? And he's just watching what they're doing, everything they're doing, like whoever it is. And I'm just like, damn, solid steak over here.

You know what I mean? I just like to analyze, you know. I like to pick up. I like to learn things from everybody, too. That's the other thing. I'm not overly critical of anybody when they're in there, you know, like, I'm not going to be that guy, but I'm going to watch what you're doing. I'm going to try to learn from it. And I'm going to try to learn

what you're doing wrong and what I'm doing wrong, you know. He's a genius. He's smart. He's like actually smart. Will Shady, you are crucial to this fucking band, dude. We need, we need, the band needs to least one smart person in there. They're all smart in different ways. I think that's what makes code.

We're all one person collectively. Rivas's pretty smart. He's pretty smart. Joe's pretty smart. Me and Dom are pretty fucking stupid. Don went to business school and has a business degree. He wasn't paying any fucking attention. Me and him are just

staring out of a wall with our tongue out, man. I mean, I'm going to be fucking honest. Oh, my goodness, dude. All right. Any other questions? Did I miss me anything? Let me say one last thing. Today, a friend of mine passed away

whose name was Kail. He played in a bunch of fucking awesome bands. Twitching tongues, we tore with him a lot. He played drums in Ghost Main as of recently. He was just a great guy, man. I just want to give a shout out to him. And, you know, I don't know. I literally don't know what's happened even,

but I know that, you know, he had struggled at times. And he was just a fucking good guy. And people should remember him because he was a killer drummer. He made everybody smile. One of a kind guy. He cracked everybody up and a great drummer. Amazing drummer. And he just did his own thing, dude.

Did his own thing. He was just hard as nails too. Yeah, dude. And he just. I'm going to miss him then. And it's sad. Shade was real good, but he was my friend.

There's not a lot of guys, you know, that like smoke a lot of weed and smoke cigarettes and everything around in the hardcore scene. There's a lot of straight-edge people, you know, so he was always on my team.

Classic. But, dude, he just had a heart of gold. And, uh, dude, it sucks. But I give a shout out. Joe check his,

the stuff he's done out, man. Check those bands out and just, yeah, remember him. That's sad. This happened today. Yes.

We just found this out like an hour ago. I'm not going to act like this guy's like my close personal friend from home or anything. So shout out to the young brothers. Shout out to my buddy Colin Bennington, who plays in a band, Eternal Sleep, and they were very close. Shout out to his friends and family who are really his,

who are really feeling this shit, you know, like for real. We were as acquaintances and his buddies, but I just want to shine a little bit of light on him. Because he should have had light on him. He was awesome, man. We always loved him.

Yeah, we always loved them. Rocked with them always. well this podcast is dedicated to him so it's also we're dropping this on uh new years so new years we gotta wait a minute drop it today i like things going fast we can make a jay and zach not sleep at all it's fine thanks for having us i'll anytime man i really wanted to get on here bro i know this kind of happened last minute but regard we're gonna find out about the dm and you better be telling truth about the DM. I'm pretty sure. Hopefully it's during that time. If not,

then I got to just say, I guess I'm just a fucking ass clown, but I wanted to pop on here. That's cool. Thanks to my boy back here for hooking it up. And thanks to my boy on the computer. You know I was just playing. So, Jay. You're my man. Thank you guys. And Shade, that's what I've got to say, man. I appreciate

you being on here. I know you don't really do many interviews, if any. I think I found two. Yeah. Thank you so much for It's cool, man. It was awesome, man. It was awesome, man. And to actually get like the dynamic, at least some of that dynamic of your band out for people to a scene here.

So it's badass. It's cool. Thank you, buddy. All right, everyone. Code Orange. Thank you. Later.