Garza Podcast - 162 - SHANNON LUCAS: All That Remains, Black Dahlia Murder & Future Playing Drums

Episode Date: February 3, 2025

Garza sits down in-person with Shannon Lucas. Former drummer of All That Remains & The Black Dahlia Murder. https://instagram.com/wolvenspiritSPONSORS:https://distrokid.com/vip/garza 30% OFF!Sweetwater - https://imp.i114863.net/rnrmVBhttps://positivegrid.comCHAPTERS:00:00 - Where Has Shannon Been?02:04 - No Social Media07:43 - Virginia08:33 - Getting Into Metal, Slayer, Pantera, Metallica12:07 - Drumming14:45 - Local Bands16:14 - High School Marching Band21:12 - Pursuing Music25:54 - Music Over a Career/Relationship34:08 - Delivering Pizza35:16 - All That Remains43:48 - Writing “This Calling,” The Fall of Ideals47:28 - Quitting All That Remains51:13 - Joining Job For a Cowboy56:07 - The Black Dahlia Murder1:08:20 - Speed, Endurance & Warm-Ups1:17:50 - Physical & Mental Toll of Playing Metal1:21:44 - Recording Nocturnal w/ TBDM1:28:28 - Guitar Center Job1:32:21 - Trevor Strnad1:40:45 - Leaving TBDM1:42:38 - Side Projects, Going Home1:46:52 - Black Metal1:59:40 - Gatekeepers2:03:38 - New Project, WOLVEN SPIRIT2:11:04 - NAMM2:12:14 - Tour Memories, TBDM/SS2:14:30 - New Musical Project, AERITH, w/ Ken Bedene (Aborted)

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of the per year for one euro at MES in shopify.com.S. Shannon Lucas. Man. Where the hell have you been, man?

Where do? Where have you been? So, I live in Virginia, so that's where I was born and raised. Yeah. What's the name of the, so you're from a smaller town. How do you pronounce that? Stanton. Stanton.

Yeah, there's a U in it. So, historically, a long time ago, because Stanton's a historical town, they would name places kind of fucked up because, they would know, you could quickly identify who was from there and who wasn't from there. So all down through like the Appalachians, including Appalachia itself, the word, you can tell people are from there or not. If somebody says, you know, the Appalachians, you know they're not from there. Oh, yeah.

And like Stanton, there's a lot of that kind of stuff where things are just spelled weird. And then you rob them, right? I mean, and some of it's just like country slang, you know, like you'll see L-U-R-A-Y, which looks like La Rey. But if you're from there, it's Lou Ray. You know, that's got that twang to it. And you can kind of tell if people are from the area or not. Yeah. But anyways, I was born and raised there, small town, about two hours west of Richmond, Virginia. So people usually might know where that's at on a map. Yeah. And yeah, man, finally was able to come back home after all those years. I mean, I saw you in Michigan last, and I think people probably still thought I lived there.

Yeah, yeah. I haven't lived there since like 2011. Yeah, why were you there again? I'd go up to see Friends. Okay, cool. And it was like a really cool week of like shows coincidentally. Like everybody was like Black Dahlia was actually coming through on like their first full tour with Brian at the helm. And so I got to see them. I got to see all you guys.

And there was like a goat horror was playing in town. So I got to see a bunch of dudes that week. It was really cool. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah, you went the coincidence of timing and Michigan. Yeah, it's crazy. But yeah, I don't have some.

social media so I think I was going to ask you that dude you don't have you don't have social media how does that feel liberating how does that feel man I I've never really liked social media to begin with I think there are people that enjoy it and that's fine sure you know what I mean it's useful for a lot of other people you know I mean I know a lot of tattooers that have used Instagram religiously for their business and that's great yeah I never really needed it I had Instagram in earlier years and I just it was like always a chore to post something you know what i mean and uh i don't know i have a lot of opinions on social media and it just was not something i was that interested in you know what i mean and i think too and i

know you can you can uh attest to this but when you travel a lot and you meet tons and tons of people like it's easy for someone to be like oh we're friends because they click a heart thing on a picture yeah yeah yeah yeah but you don't know anything that's going on in my life you know what i mean That's true. The people that really care, like your close circle, they'll call you or they'll text you. Even if it's like once every six months, you know what I mean? They'll reach out and actually talk to me. To me, that's more meaningful.

So yeah, I just got away from it altogether. It's been years. I'm in social media in like five years probably. That's sick. Now there's a convenience, obviously. Like if I wanted to reach out and be like, dude, I haven't talked to you in like 10 years. How are you doing? Like, that's harder.

I have to reach out to people that know you and get your. number but that's that's probably okay you know yeah and I figure that's like the same for me if somebody wants to find me if they know me they probably know how to get a hold of me yeah you know but uh you live you live everything truly for you like it's not you're not doing it thinking I need to get photos or video of this so I can post it yeah you know like I got to remember to get photos to post because it's I have to post something today like I'm the worst at take when I like around friends I'm the worst at take taking photos come trying to be in the moment.

Uh-huh. And then, like, my lady is like, take pictures. I'm like, I don't want to. I'm, I'm in a moment right now. Same. Every day. Every time we're traveling, any, like, hang out. Yep.

You know, I won't take photos here because I'll, it's just, I'm hanging with Shannon. I came to name last year and I didn't take a single photo. Nice. And I saw so many cool old friends and hung out. And I came back and everyone was like, oh, man, did you take pictures? I was like, no. No. You know, of course, everyone's like, all right, you got to take pictures this time.

I was like, I'll try. Take one or two. You know? I just don't think about it. You know what I mean? And I don't want to, if I see somebody, I don't want them to think I want to get a selfie with them because I want to post it somewhere. I know. It just gets so weird, man.

It's tough. Yeah. It's tough, but I think you're doing the right thing. It's awesome. The memories are cool. I get it. And I have photos in my phone. I have plenty.

But, like, especially, like, if you travel, like, I get the importance of documenting stuff. And you can always look back on those cool memories. But for the most part, like, I just want to be there and experience it. You know, I don't really. for social media like I don't really care about you know affirmation I know a lot of people want people to like essentially tell them they're cool or you're doing the right thing or what you're doing is awesome your life's great like yeah it doesn't matter to me you know what I mean like so yeah actually uh I think for you it's best because I think there's one person or type of person that

shouldn't have social media is a drummer think so I think I think I think it's a drummer and A far away second is a singer because drummers tend to have, I think they have the hardest job and they're under, you guys deal with anxiety and stress of always being under a microscope as far as like technique. So you might seek validation elsewhere. I mean, I've seen drummer in three comments all the time. Like you're like the one person. I'll be like, you shouldn't have a phone. You know, because you're always like seeking. something.

And so I think it, yeah, I think you might be the first drummer I've known or met that doesn't have

social media. You have like the personality of like you get validation from you and you're not just constantly

like, you know. Yeah, yeah. I don't, I'm not an attention seeker by any means. I'm like the guy that wants to sit

quietly in the back of a restaurant and, you know. And it's blast. Yeah, yeah, I'm good. And that's probably the only reason I was able to be in

bands and play shows all those years was because I was behind a full band. I was behind other people. I was sitting down behind all the furniture, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't feel like I was the center of attention. And granted, in extreme music, drummers usually get plenty of attention,

but, like, at least created that illusion. Like, if it was, like, just me on stage, I, you know, I don't think I could do it. Just a solo blaster? Fuck, yeah, dude. That'll be sick, man. I don't think I could do it. There's a lot of guys that are great at it.

I just, yeah. Well, it's cool that you're not so private that you're actually willing to go out and have conversations like this, you know? No, I enjoy talking to people. It's not, it's definitely not that at all. I mean, I'm a homebody, you know what I mean? And I like my space just like anyone else.

But I enjoy talking and I enjoy, you know, storytelling hour, you know what I mean? Because it's, we got to live in a really cool place in the universe and see a lot of unique stuff. And, you know, I can see why it's interesting, you know, from the outside looking in. Now, yeah. Yeah, we both kind of had like a,

we're in like the kind of like a last bit of an era. Yeah. You know, we're like that last bit. There's no soap on. There records are still sewing. You know, it's crazy. Yeah. So how does it feel to be,

well, you're not home home, but at least you're like home state. You know, how does it feel to be kind of in your home state? I love, I love it. I'm very proud to be from where I'm from. You know, I got to travel and live. in bigger places and experience all that, you know, when I was younger. At the end of the day, I like a small town. I like rural, you know what I mean? Like I grew up around farms and, you know,

I'm, I'm in the valley between two mountain ranges, so. Nice, beautiful, man. It's, it's quiet. It's low traffic, low crime, you know what I mean? Just a lot of, you know, kind of simple country folks, so, so, um, got some family there, so it's just nice, yeah. Cool. So you're in, like, so you're born and raised in a smaller town. So how to, It seems like you're really connected with Slayer or something. That's what really made you want to start ripping. Slayer was actually the band. That was like, by the time I was 15, I was like obsessed with Slayer.

Like, I had like everything in their catalog, you know what I mean? And that's what I wanted to do was play that kind of stuff. You know, so I was playing guitar a lot still. Yeah, so you were playing guitar first. Mm-hmm. Nice. Yeah, first love. First love.

Slayer, Slayer, Slare. Yep. Slayer, Slayer, Slare, Slare. How did you, yeah, so. How did you hear him first? So one of my favorite bands of all times, Pantera. Of course. Big fan.

And that was kind of like the big door that opened. And after that it was like, okay, here's other extreme metal. You know what I mean? Extreme for that age. I was in middle school. And it was shortly before around the same time like Korn's first album came out, which is also for me influential because I was just getting into playing music when all that stuff started to kind of come.

out. So you had like, Pantera in the mid-90s. You had corn in the mid-90s. Slayer, they were, what were they doing in the mid-90s? Diabolism music, I think. That was like that first low-tuned record

that they put out. That was the one that no one liked, right? I loved it. But yeah, but yeah, they got flak for it. I personally, I liked it. I can understand why some people were like they didn't like it, but... Sure. Yeah, I just think...

I'm trying to remember what, what it was. Oh, actually, I know what it was. I was jamming with this guy when I was 15. He played guitar as well. He was a couple years older than me. And he showed me a lot of, like, music I'd never heard. Like, he showed me, like, I just never heard priest. He showed me priest. But he showed me, like, newer priest at the time. It was that Jugulator album that Ripper Owens was singing on. When Halford left the band for a hot minute, and I love the jugulator album. But he showed me, like, typo negative, you know, like Bloody Kisses era. He showed me Slayer. But the first album he ever showed me was Shona Mercy. The first one came out in 83. on Metal Blade. Nice. And you'd think that at 15, you'd be like, you know, high-pitched vocals and, like, you know, sounds like it, you know, was recorded in a metal tunnel. Sure.

But I loved it. And I just wanted more of it. And so that was kind of the spark. And then it was off to, you know, off to the thrash race. And, you know, it was hearing faster double bass. And, you know. Yeah. It's like you work your way up.

Like, you're not starting with cannibal corpse. Like, you got to, you know. Versus black album. Black album in your interdatched truck. And they're like, okay. what's this? Yep. Yeah.

That's probably exactly. Yep. Yep. He had the black album and that was my introduction to Metallica. And then, of course, went backwards from there. Imagine what, you don't even think about it, but what that record really did. That probably introduced so many people a lot. A lot.

Dude, they don't really get that much credit for that record because, I mean, obviously it just blew up, you know? I get why people hate on it because it is the beginning of the change for them. Yeah. But at the same time, like, what did they have left to prove? You know, after the first four? Yeah, dude, it's done. It's a brilliant album. You know what I get it.

It's not, it's not like, you know, the fast, you know, doesn't have like the crazy double bass and, you know, it's got more of the slower tunes on it. It's a good album, though. You know what I mean? It's sick. But it does open the door for a lot of people. So many people, man. And those bands are necessary. Yeah.

Those bands and those records are, you fucking need them. You know, you need that gateway. I remember when I first heard InterSaman, like, this is, this is sick, dude. This is sick, you know, then, yeah, opens up the door, you know. I was, one thing I couldn't really find on you, it seemed, so you found guitar first. It seems like, it seemed like you didn't really own a drum set. So you went into, to high school band, correct? And then, but you didn't really own like a drum set, right?

In the beginning, no. I was like probably 13, maybe 14, playing in like garage bands, you know, emulating whatever you can at that stage of you're playing. Okay. And I started doing the school band thing, and it was weird. I've had this discussion before. With drums, I don't really remember a time where I could sit down behind a kit and I couldn't play a basic beat. It's like as soon as I sat down, I could just play something.

Really? Yeah, it was weird. Like, I could just emulate, basically. I didn't know if I knew what I was doing. but I was just emulating stuff. I could hear it and go, all right, I think I know what he's doing.

Really? Yeah, I could just kind of get it to work. So my first kit, my uncle, played drums growing up, and he played in like country bands. So the first kid I got was like some youth kit

that he had from way back in the day. I mean, they didn't have bottom heads on them. You know what I mean? I didn't have any symbols. I was like beating on rims and, you know, but I could sit and play

and like I could play like Nirvana songs and sing. to them while I was playing them. Yeah, it was weird. And so I was like, okay, like, drums are fun, but I didn't want to be a drummer. And I think I finally got a drum kit, I got a drum kit for Christmas. It was like a pearl export or something when I was probably 14. And it was just something I did for fun on the side.

It was like, it was like, it's like your side chick. Yeah. I got, I got a side chick for Christmas, dude. I didn't want to be with her, but she was fun. That's it. And it wasn't until, like, I started to, like, you know, see people doing double bass, like, you know, Pantera and, you know, what little bit there was. And, like, you know, on the first corn album, little spurts here of double kick and stuff that I was like, oh, that's cool. Like, I want to be able to do that, too.

You know, I was drawn to both. And by 15, it was like, oh, we were trying to emulate Slayer. And there were no drummers in my area. And you were forced into the kit, right? Yeah, forced into the drums. Wow. Because I could, I could, I knew the parts, and I could emulate them, and I could do the double bass and stuff. And in a small town, like, you're lucky if there's a drummer that's, like, wants to play, like, rage against the machine, you know.

They're not down with Slayer. Yeah, how did you, even having that little, like, connection is tough, you know? Because I know, I know, like, a lot of people struggle with, like, being from, like, a smaller town, being around farms similar to you. And, like, who do I even, don't even jam with? Yeah, it's tough. I mean, I jammed with like the same guys. Well, the same bass player, he was like my best friend during those years. And, you know, we're still connected.

But he played in like every band. So like all the changes along the way, you know, going from like when you're 13, 14 in the 90s emulating Nirvana or Green Day or whatever is accessible as like a new player. And then moving into like Metallica and then into Slayer and into like something more extreme. He was like with me during all that. And then, you know, different drummers before I ended up playing drums. And, yeah, it's hard. I mean, you end up putting up a flyer in, like, the record store in town and hoping that somebody wants to jam. And so, and there's no, there were no places to play.

Very few places to play. What, just like, what, like your garage or something? You would do, like, house parties or something. The house party. Yeah. You know, like, there was, like, a small venue about 35 minutes away. That was, like, the goal, right? because they had a stage and like an actual PA.

And you felt like you were playing the Coliseum, you know, and he was a small venue. Was it more like, was it a venue venue or was it like a bar? It was a venue. Okay. They would get small, small tours would come through there.

Oh, cool. I actually saw D-Asside there once, which was super. Oh, wow. Nice. They would have small stuff come through. Sick. Cool. How was it being in a school band?

How do, how is that? So you're playing quads, right? I played quads. Okay. Yeah, I did a couple years, and then I was trying to practice with my band all the time, and we wanted to play shows, so they were really interfering. So I just, I stepped away. I told my band director, I was like, hey, man, I'm trying to do this in my personal life, and I can't do both, and he was very understanding and respectful of it, and that was that was that was a really cool guy, and we actually still talk here and there. Oh, really? That's cool. His first year at the high school was my freshman year. And he's still there.

And he's probably close to retiring at this point. Just a great guy. You know, I probably gave him way too much shit. And he didn't deserve it. Yeah. But he's like, I'm trying to blast right now, man. I don't know if I could be here senior year, dude. I just wanted to do something busy.

So quads were a little bit more busy. And even then, like, it was like, it was cool because I like playing music. You know, I didn't really care for like the outfits and stuff like that. Did you still handle those outfits, dude? No, no, they own them. There's like a couple photos floating around, but. Oh man, we gotta find them. I can hook you up.

Yeah, are quads like, are they just tombs? Essentially. Right? Yeah, just smaller tombs that have, you know, more specific notes. There's quads and quints and there's, yeah. What's a quint? It's five. Five, okay.

Oh, yeah, okay. It, like, clicked and, like, it's like chain linking, you know? Were you ever, like, were you ever, like, Were you like practicing your roles? Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah. I couldn't take them home. I couldn't take them home or anything. I'd be sick, dude.

And the stuff wasn't as busy as I would have liked, you know, because I was listening to fast stuff. So I wanted to, you know, rip through them. But they gave me a lot of freedom, you know, to church stuff up or whatever. Sick. So you did that up until your junior year. What did you do your senior year? Did you drop out?

No, actually. I had, so I wasn't going for an advanced diploma. college wasn't for me. I wanted to go make rock and roll. I'm in front of rock. But so I needed like two credits or something to get like a diploma. So I homeschooled the two credits. Oh, I'm lucky.

Got out early, dude. Yeah. Did you do your homework? No. I was terrible student. Oh, man. I did enough to get out. Yeah, but two credits.

How many classes is that? It was like, well, I had to do two and then like a couple of garbage ones. But it was really easy stuff because you're doing it at home. What the heck, man. Yeah, it was like a little too easy to be fair. Lucky, man. Yeah, junior year are, my, my counselor said that I wasn't going to graduate a senior year. So they said, the only way to get enough credits to graduate is if you have a full day.

And then you have one more class after school is over. And then you do night school. Ugh. So you know how senior year, some people have short days or now you, you were homeschooled. You know, half days. So all the people I knew were just go home after lunch. We're like pre-lunch. I'm just like the loser is senior.

I had school all day and a class after and high school. It sucks. That's terrible. I think, you know, most of my friends in high school were older. Yeah. And so, like, by the time my senior year was rolling around, like, I had no friends left. They were all gone. Yeah.

And I was like, I don't want to be here. Like, I'm leaving this fucking dumb. Yeah. All my people are gone. Like, you know, I'm just spinning wheels. Like, what's up, everybody? It helps the podcast if you listen to the ads and support the sponsors. They literally help keep the lights on.

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Anywhere from handheld amps to these cabs right here. Whatever your tone needs are, check out Positivegrid.com. And that's it. I appreciate you listening to ads. And now back to our conversation with Shannon Lucas. Yeah, I was going to ask you, okay, so you got your drum set, you're in band, and then I assume you wanted to go to Richmond because you wanted to find kind of just more people to jam with. Oh, yeah, there was a scene. I knew there was a scene there. But it was like a coincidental kind of thing. It was like I wanted to get out and go chase it. And by coincidence, met some girl who was just moving out there. Of course. I found out the real reason.

Yeah, dude. Chase the girl there. It wasn't because we're trying to rock. We're trying to get there and live. And as soon as I got there, I was able to find bands to join and, you know, off to the races. Yeah, did you meet Corey through a magazine? It was an online mag. Yeah.

So funny enough, I'd actually played a show with one of his old bands in, like, Winchester, Virginia, of all places. But I didn't, I remembered them. And I think they remembered that night. Yeah. But he had since then had joined Guar. Okay. And then... Guitar player for those that don't know.

Yeah, he was Flatus Maximus. And he had another band on the side, which kind of sound like influenced by a lot of Swedish metal, you know, kind of a little bit of soil work in there. You know, obviously everybody at that time was influenced by, you know, Musugga's albums coming out of the 90s. There's so many knockoffs.

It was fucking... It was getting too much. And nobody could, nobody could emulate it. It's true. They still can't. But nobody could, nobody could even get close in like, you know, the early 2000s. But, uh, true. So it was something like that.

But anyways, they had, uh, lost their drummer and they put out an ad on, um, I think it was called like Punchline mag. It was like a punchline was like, what is the name of that mag? Yeah, it was some like online, you know, classifieds for like art and music or whatever. And I had just found out about it. So I put a thing on there. I was like wanting to play drums and something that was like, I don't even think I knew how to describe it at the time.

But I think I was attracted to like Swedish sounding, you know, metal, you know, that kind of like harmonic minor, you know, at the gatesy type of thing. Yeah, how do you, uh, that's, you part of a good point. How do you like describe that, right? I think I probably, it's like, what do you actually put down on the ad, right? I think I was probably listing bands that I was into. Oh, there you go. You know what I mean?

Because like, how else, you know. Punch mine? No. Alternative humor monthly. Is that it? This is 97. Punchline? RVA MAG.

But it was online, right? Yeah. Or so, did they have any like physical or, not that I knew, they may have. I mean, I was so,

I was like, just turned 19, moved to Richmond, you know, never lived in a city before, like. Try and get a girlfriend. Yeah,

like, just no clue what I was doing. And somebody pointed me to the punchline and was like, oh, you can put something here. And I got, I got a bunch of calls immediately.

People were like, you know, putting together bands for different things. And, the Corey thing popped up first it was like the other guy playing guitar in the band this guy Nate and he told me about it and then we kind of connected like

oh I met you guys before because you were in this other band at one point we played some show a long time ago but anyways it was like hey we just want to I want to get up with you chat with you I want to give you like a few songs to check out see if you like it learn the songs and maybe we'll try you out when Corey gets back into town

and so yeah audition, you know, hung out with them. Boom. Got the gig and then just started learning. Now learning, that's a good way to put it. Yeah. So now, okay, now how do I do this? How do I do that?

Yeah, I was just a kid that could play, but I didn't know anything about anything, right? Like, never recorded, never played to a click. Like, it's the best time, though. Yeah, it was cool. I learned a lot from Corey. You know, it was like playing to a click and like, you know, going into a small studio for the first time. Corey told you that how to play to a click, really? Oh, wow.

Yeah, because he wanted, he wanted to record. the album to the click, which why wouldn't you? Sure. It was like the first time I'd ever done that, you know what I mean? So I got my first exposure there. Interesting. Like, that band comes off as like this raw dog. Yeah.

Like they're like war or something, sounds like a band that wouldn't even do click, but I could be wrong. They grew over time, you know what I mean? They're more that there was like a metal element to the band, you know, because they were very much like a kind of punk rock in the early years. and, you know, if you listen to the stuff like post-2000s, they were definitely a lot more metal, which I think Corey probably helped usher some of that in. Yeah. But, uh. Cool.

And were you still dating a chick or what? No. I mean, that only lasted probably, I mean, maybe a year. Of course. It's always a year. Yeah. You know, it's always a year. Just a dumb young kid.

I didn't know what I was doing. You know what I mean? And, um, chasing music first and foremost. And I think, like, you know, when you're young like that, parents look at you and they're like, you know, that's not going to work. Like, you're going to date our daughter. You need to have a career and be able to like help pay bills and all that, which makes sense. I get it, you know, from a parent perspective. Is that what her, did you meet her parents?

Oh, yeah. And that's what they told you? Oh, yeah. What were you thinking? I, like, I'm not. I pretty much bit into it, like, for a minute. So, like, at one point, I actually told Corey. like I need to step away from all this and I need to go get a job and like he was like are you sure dude yeah and I was like no but I went and I so they they knew somebody

19 yeah they knew somebody who could get me an interview with this electric company is like an apprentice and just the person said yeah I'll put in a word for him and I went and I interviewed with this like company and the guy was like you know you're gonna start off and you're gonna train and blah blah blah and you know the reality was like you know in 20 years you know in that trade, you can actually make really good money. Huh. You know. But the whole time I'm like, I had that feeling in my gut, like, this is not what I want out of my life. This is not. I don't think this is for me. You know what I mean?

And the relationship wasn't even like it was like perfect, you know, where I was willing to throw my life in a blender to save it. I was a kid, you know. So I remember driving home after that interview. And I think I probably took maybe a day after that. and I just, I called Corey. He was like, nah, man,

I don't want to do that. Like, like, he knew. I think he kind of knew, like, he'll be back, you know. And I was like,

yeah, yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to do this. And so I called the guy that, you know, gave me the job and I thanked him.

And I was like, hey, man, I just, I don't think this is for me, dude. I was like, I want to play music for a living.

And the truth behind it is, this chick's parents were telling me, like, there's not going to be a career. You're not going to go anywhere with it. Go get a job. You know what I mean?

And I'm like, so if they don't want me to hang out with her no more and she don't want me to hang out, then that's fine. I'm going to go rock and roll. You know what I mean? So, that was that. See you later, bitch. I was done. You know, I was like, I got shit to do.

Dude, imagine if you, just a simple yes or no and your mind will drastically change the direction in your life. Imagine if you would have stayed there, you'll be so much fatter now. And probably have like, fucking what? Three kids. If that. I mean, I don't know. The relationship didn't end up working anyways.

It wasn't going to work, but. What you do? Huh? What you do? Oh, I didn't do anything. It's fucking, stop. Stop texting back. Stop calling back.

You know, like, she had moved back to, like, where she was from in Winchester. And, like, I don't know, some other, some weird stuff was going on up there. You know what I mean? Because I didn't live there. I was like an hour and a half away. Sure. And I was like, I was saying working. This guy's a loser.

It's all good. We're just kids. Nice. So at what point did, so you started playing drums with this band called War Torn, right? Yeah. So same group of friends. Base player from mens rea was also in War Torn. Sick.

And I had made really good friends with a guitar player, Adam. It's a small, it was a scene in Richmond, but it was like any town. it's like an incestuous scene everybody's played with everybody at some point you know what I mean everyone's been in a band with somebody yeah and um the drummer for both of those bands so the prior drummer to mens rea

and the drummer for Wartorn at the time were related and they were like brothers oh wow and I ended up replacing the one in Wartorn and great dude you know but uh it was kind of interesting I kind of took took over both of those bands and Warthorne was like old school kind of

grindy death you know influenced type of material. So all of a sudden, now I'm playing in a band with like blast beats and like, you know, faster double bass and like the dude,

Adam gave me this stack of like burn CDs and was like, study this shit. It was stuff I'd never heard of. I had heard of the obvious bands, you know, like Cannibal and things like that.

But like, he was showing me like all the unique leader stuff that was popping, you know, in the early 2000s. And he was showing me a lot of like Swedish grind, you know,

like he was like, here's, here's Nazum and here's regurgitate and like. Oh, fuck yeah. And then it was like, the co-lab stuff like lockup, you know, with Nick Barker and like, you know, Linberg. And so then all of a sudden I'm like listening to this like underground death metal.

And I'm loving. Yeah. Like I'm like hearing the real clicky triggers from like the early 2000s, you know. Oh yeah. They just made death metal. And yeah, look at that. I was there. I think.

Yeah, we were there. 2010? Yeah. Brutal assault. Yep. And this is in Prague, right? Yeah. Nice.

Yeah, you guys have done that, right? Yeah, once. That place is cool, isn't it? Yeah, it's great. A little military camp. Yeah. Fans like Gus definitely don't belong there, but things are changing. Things have definitely changed.

Yeah. People hated Death Corps for the longest time, especially that kind of circle. That whole conversation, man. It's like metal core prior, right? It was like a dirty word, which is stupid because now no one cares. No one cares now. It's so bizarre. You know, like, when I was in all their remains, Phil hated the term.

He's like, I don't want to be called Metal Corps. I want to be just a metal band. I'm like, I get it. And now it's like, no one cares. When you talk about metal chords, it doesn't seem like a dirty word anymore. Oh, no, it's actually hot now. It's hot. It is.

So with this band, Warthorn, that's how you started playing, like, you know, like your first big shows. And that's how you eventually kind of met the members of speaking of all that remains correct. So through mens rea, actually, Warthoram, we played a couple shows, but we didn't do a whole lot, a whole lot of shows but it was interesting because Corey could he could kind of tell that like once I got in a war tour and like my heart was

into like the play in the fast stuff. He could tell like I wanted to do the just the blast and ripping. Yeah. But Minsera because of Corey got opening spots with Guar shows. So we did like one show in like I think it was like Virginia Beach or something and it was like my first big show.

You know where it's like 1,200 kids, you know. Yeah. Well, kids, bright of adults, but. It's a big moment. Look at that. It's a big moment. Oh, yeah, is it. So that's the guy just to the left of the guy on the far right is that was their original drummer who came back after I departed and went off.

Nice. But yeah, the guy on the far right, Dave, he played bass in both bands. He played in Warthorn. Nice. That logo. That might be one of the. worst logos I have ever seen. That's not an attractive logo.

Do what you got to do, man. Yeah, yeah. You know, but it was, it was fun. And, you know, I played that first show and was just like, I got a taste of it. You know, it was like, whoa. You got the, you know, had the, like, the clammy hands before the show, like, all nervous and stuff. And probably played everything way too fast. Of course.

They weren't a fast band. So, yeah, we got, like, a week, probably. It was like a week. opening up for for guar you know and I was probably 20 maybe maybe 21 nice and um you know rough it in a van but I was like all about that life yeah that's all I wanted to do because even even at home in Richmond I was like delivering pizza as a job because I wanted something that I was comfortable just walking away from I didn't want to get some like cool job that I was like man I kind of I don't know if I want to quit.

What if I come back in two weeks and I can't get it back? So I was like, no, just deliver pizza. You know what I mean? And that was cool and fun. And I got to ride around my car and listen to metal. Yeah. What do you think? I keep hearing this.

Like the one of the best pre-drops that have before you start touring, like is being a pizza delivery driver. I'll agree. It's instant cash. You can kind of pop in and out. You know what I mean? They always need drivers to show up and do shifts. and yeah it was great for me um i could leave and come back anytime and get a job and deliver a little bit and you find a lot of people there that it's like their second job like a lot of older guys

oh yeah that will just do it on the side like school teachers and stuff you know what i mean they'll pick up night shifts and just drive and deliver and dude yeah i met so many different kinds of people like here what they've like delivered pizza here is all kinds of people all ages all you know there's all yeah this you know i need i need some tips my damn Cool. Yeah. So it was cool. But yeah, it gave me the ability to leave when I was ready to leave.

Yeah, it's like, I'm out, dude. Yeah. Did you quit quit? What, delivering pizza? Yeah, yeah. I quit. Well, not until the other remains thing happened. So how did these guys come into your life?

So they were out doing a tour. It was dying fetus, all that remains in Guar, which is a cool package. Great. Fetus had John Longstreath filling in on drums. It was before Trey, joined the band. And I was an origin fan already, so I was cool watching John play. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And all their remains, I had seen, like, a music video for the album they were touring. And I was like, oh, man, this band's coming up. You know, they're making a splash. They were in prosthetic, and they were getting tours and stuff. So we got to open up about a week's worth. And just being there, you know, you kind of mingle with him. And Matt Dice, who's back in the band, the bass player for all the remains,

he, him and I kind of hit it off. And they were touring a lot. And I think they, I think they were looking for like, I think they were looking for drums that were just a bit more extreme. You know what I mean? Like their old drummer was like more of like a rock drummer. You know what I mean? And just wasn't doing.

real fast stuff. And I think a lot of the competition for them at the time. A lot of competition. During that area? Oh, my gosh. A lot of competition. That was like the golden era of that kind of, you know, those kinds of bands. And there was some good competition at the time, you know.

And like, on Earth had put out the oncoming storm, which was like ridiculous. And, you know, Jason Bittner, you know what I mean? Shadow's Fall was like at their peak. And so I think he really wanted to like have the band stand out, you know what I mean, in that regard. And so I think. It was just one of those things. I was a young guy that was playing and doing a bunch of stuff.

I wanted to go fast and wanted to tour. And they were like, Matt joked around and was like, you should just join our band. And I was like, let's go. You know, I was like ready to take an opportunity. Because I knew like mens rea wasn't going to ever really do anything as long as Guar was in the picture. You know what I mean? And even then, you never know, you know, if a band's really going to be in demand or not. You can be a great band, but just be the wrong time in music.

And then, you know, in that part of metal for your. you to work out. So, yeah, we kind of exchanged numbers around the last show. And then I went back to Richmond and went back to my pizza delivery life. Boom. And I'm driving around and I get a call from Phil Labonte. And he's like, hey man, I got your number from Matt. He's like, I know you and Matt have been kind of, you know, you guys joke around

about you playing with the band. He's like, the house serious are you? And I was like, like a heart attack, man, you know? I was like, I want to go. And he was like, all right, he was like, well, we're getting ready to do this tour. It was like, I think all there remains. and as they lay dying and throw down or something like that. And he was like, well, we're going to be out for like a month.

We've got to finish this tour. He's like, it gives you about a month. He's like, can you learn all of this darkened heart? And then when we get off tour, we'll, you know, we'll audition you. And I was like, yep, cool. So I just started learning the whole album. And it wasn't even, they were in the middle of the tour somewhere, and they came through Richmond, Virginia.

They planned like this old venue called Alley Cat. Alley Cat. Yeah, did you have like a kind of like a joke try? out at like a log cad or something right it wasn't it was weird it was like okay so they're playing they're playing alicat and i'm like i'm gonna come out and hang out and you're like oh cool so i come out and i'm chilling and um feels like where do you rehearse that and i was like man i'm like play with two bands like we rehearse in this like it was a storage unit that we even worse that we carpeted and we built a dummy wall you know to catch sound in front of the actual like metal door

fuck yeah and so it actually wasn't bad it was a pretty good setup and like every now and then like darkest hour or rehearsed there before tour because they were at the time half D.C., half Richmond. Oh, yeah. And we knew those guys as well like when Chris Norris was in the band.

And so I was like, yeah, it's like we have 24 hour access over there and we don't, you know, no one's ever bothered by it. And he was like, would you want to go over there tonight? So it was this like weird secret op, you know, felt like we were cheating

on somebody kind of mission where like I went and picked up it was like Phil, Ollie, and Matt Dice in my little car. And we hauled over onto the south side to the practice space. And basically we jammed out a couple songs and, you know, Phil was like, man, cool.

And I knew kind of what he wanted to hear because I knew like what he was looking for. And he was like, I'm going to play a riff and I want you to just play something to it. And so it was easy. I played exactly what I felt was appropriate. And I think it was what he was looking for. And he was like, you got the job.

So it was like, oh, weird yeah weird audition um and i had to pretty much just wait for them to finish tour and then they came back with a van and trailer and picked up my crap and i loaded and rested my shit in a car and followed them up to massachusetts and then you basically under under a month you basically moved there oh yeah it was yeah it was it was quick and it was like i was a kid with like little money you know i mean i didn't know anybody up there i didn't really even know them um my god dice was like they had like an in-law suite under in his parents house like the bottom floor and he was like, yeah, you can crash there.

And it was like, okay, cool. But it was really weird, you know what I mean? And, like, just finally left home and was in this new place and know anybody. And it was kind of weird. And like, and then, like, he kind of went, MIA. He went MIA. Like, he just disappeared for a few days. And it was like, nobody knew what was going on.

Yeah, we had started to rehearse, you know, we were rehearsing in like Phil's mom's basement. Of course. And all of a sudden, Matt disappears. And he comes back. and like nobody knew where he was and I go over to practice and I'm sitting like outside of like the door, I'm in the driveway, but like this is the door that goes downstairs so I could kind of hear Phil down there. And he was kind of like chewing Matt out like, like, dude, like we have a show coming up, you know, with a new drummer. He has to learn this whole set and you just disappear for days on end and no one can find you.

Like what the fuck, you know. And Matt was like, I quit. He was like, I'm joining CKY. That's where he had gone. He had gone out to audition for them. Oh, wow. And I'm sitting in this driveway like, what the fuck am I doing?

What do I get myself into? Yeah, like, I'm in this weird place. This dude just left this band. Like, where am I going to live? Like, holy. So that was like, he was like, hey, look, my parents said you can crash, you just stay there until like you get back from the first tour

because there was a tour coming up. And he was like, but after that you got to figure out where you're going. And I was like, okay. And so it was like this whole mess, man. The first tour, too, like we had like fill in bass players. It was like a whole mess We had a bass player

It was a guy that had played With all the remains in the past And had left over something weird And then like He was in Blood Has Been Shed You know Howard's old band Which is gnarly And he joins the band

And we do like a video And a photo shoot And then we go off to tour He quits after day one Just leaves Oh Just disappears Yeah

So we had fillings We had like Slow and Ken from Unearth Filled in Genie before she joined the band she was actually on the tour, like working a vendor thing. And she did a song, Nate, who was in mens rea, who was working for Guar. Guar was on Sounds of the Underground.

So he did a song. And like, I think after a couple days, I think it was just Ken and Slow doing the whole set. It was a mess. It was a total mess. But it was still cool. And I just was so grateful to be out there doing it. And I was like learning from watching all these dudes, you know, like Gene Hogan was on the tour. And like Kevin Talley.

And like all these guys that I like looked up to as drummers And I was just like holy shit I'm just drinking from the fire hose Watching what these guys are doing Yeah You saw kind of like Kind of like your heroes You know?

Yeah 100% Yeah Dude whatever happened to a sound of underground What happened to that tour? They did a couple years Was that two years? I think I went to one

It was the one that Guar Headlined Oh they were Well they did they did both years They were like Oh they did huh They were the Halftime show

Oh yeah It was wild That's wild Yeah Dude I didn't know all that Like a fucking left your home state And a kid And

I was like I was ready to take any opportunity You know Came back and just kind of floated From place to place You know Like sleeping on futons and couches And

I had a couple totes of my crap And I would just put them in garages And Wow Go off and do a tour and come back Dude like you really helped Really helped that ban Take off man

man what the first song you guys wrote was uh this calling which really kind of propelled them you know yeah first first one boom yeah it was like it was like i mean it was really kind of like just a perfect storm perfect storm it happens dude yeah it was like the right time you know you have the right launch ramp for an album so like ozvesto six was the launch ramp for that album and then there was like there was like the saw three soundtrack so it was like the first song that rolled on the Salfrey soundtrack. So it really, it was all these things combined, but it was like,

there were a lot of really good bands in that kind of genre at that time. And we just kind of pushed it a little further, you know, like threw in some blast beads and some extra, extra fast double kick, and then, you know, and then had some parts where it laid back and was just like rock, like a rock beat, you know what I mean?

Yeah. Disco beat and Phil did his heavy vocals and then he had some really catchy clean singing stuff and it was just, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. It was kind of like the perfect storm. Yeah, maybe it was in their minds, but were you thinking about any like competition or like what was going on like around you or were you just doing your own thing? I was doing my own thing. I loved death metal. And so it was like a way for me to kind of sprinkle stuff in there.

You know, I didn't want to overplay because the guitar work was so good. There was a lot of sections where you needed just a basic like acedc beat, you know what I mean? And let the guitars really speak. And then there were parts where it's like, it's like the Vinnie Paul approach, you know what I mean? Like he didn't really do double bass unless it was absolutely necessary. Totally. You know what I mean? Yeah.

And let dime really shine, you know. Yeah. Yeah, did they, what, did they bring in like a, like a ripper to or like, hey, this is a song we guys just going back and forth in a room or what? When we wrote that album? Oh, that song, in particular. All in a room. Just in a room. Because at that time, like, you got to think, like, 2005, like, people had laptops, but not everybody.

Now, like, everybody's got a computer, right? But it's funny to think about, like, in the early 2000s, like, there were a lot of people that just weren't computer users. Yeah. And we didn't have the ability to record easily back then. Like, now it's super easy to record, right? There's free dolls. There's, like, great plug-ins. Plug-ins are cheap.

Anybody can plug in and just, you know. And there's software to make, you know, sick MIDI drums. You know, none of that was really a thing back. then. I mean, it was, but it just wasn't common. So we didn't have that capability. I think at one point, I was like the only person in the band with a laptop, you know, so we just hashed it out in the room, the old-fashioned way. You know what I mean? We had one, we wrote this calling first, and then we actually tested it out on a tour. We went out with like, it was like arch enemy, six feet under, and I think three inches of blood was on that. And we tested out that song and thought it went pretty well.

And then we came back and we had time, so we just wrote an album in a room. Wow, that really set the tone, you know. I'm sure you've done that plenty, worked out complete songs or whole albums in a room with people. But like, you know, there's a lot of emotions that happen when you do that. You know what I mean? Yeah. Which can either be a good outcome or a bad outcome, you know. Goes either way.

Yeah. It just depends where you're at or where the band's at. It's hard to plan that. Yeah. You know, yeah, we've gone back and forth. You know, sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't, you know, someone, you know. But so the record's done.

And then you want to go out on tour with them. Yeah, so the whole thing was like, and I, you know, there was some, there was some disagreements and, you know, hard feelings there for a little while. And, you know, we've long since buried the hatchet. Of course. It takes time. You know, there were a couple tours that we did where I literally came home with, you know, with no money.

You know what I mean? And regardless of what the reason is, whether it's a band that's in debt that makes bad decisions or whether it's somebody being in the dark. Either way, you do enough of it and you come home and you're like, I don't even have enough for ramen, dude. So at the time, I was like working shows when we would come back home, you know, at the time, you know, Scott Lee. Yeah. So Scott Lee was managing all that remains in this area. Scott Lee and Leah Urbana. And when I would come back, they had a record store that they kind of operated out of.

So I would go work the record store. Or Scott would be like, hey, come to the record store. And he would basically have me go pick up lunch for everybody and would buy me lunch for doing it. So that would be like how I ate. Or it would be like the Palladium, you know, he ran all the shows at the Palladium for the most part. So I would ride out there with him in the morning and just work all day as much as I could, you know, loading gear or going to like pick up catering. crap just to make any kind of money you know what i mean to like afford a cell phone bill i sold like everything i had pretty much like i had no guitar you know sold my guitar i sold anything i had

just to pay basic bills and finally got to a point where i was like dude i can't keep going out for nothing man yeah and uh he was like you know i can't make you any promises and i was like well i'm not going so i didn't i didn't go and it was like i went back to richmond and they got they got a fill in um the dude colin filled in and they did a music video for this calling that I'm not in and uh it was very it was very confusing it was very confusing it was like because I didn't you know all of a sudden I have this album that's not out and I'm like man we worked so hard on this is a great product it was it wasn't even out yet oh and I was like man I really wanted to like play this and tour this and see you know see where

it goes you know it's like your little child you want to see at birth you know yeah yeah and uh yeah I you know delivering pizza for like a month or so and then I was like man I don't think I'm done. I got to figure this out. So Phil and I talked and, you know, we were like willing to talk it out and Phil wanted me to come back and play. You know, and I wanted to come back. And I really wanted to do OzFest because that was like slated for the summer. You know what I mean?

And I was like, man, I really want to do that. Well, yeah. So I came back and, yeah, did OzFest and saw the album release. And then, you know, we, I was. I did one more tour right after OzFest. It was like Dragon Force had blown up and was doing a headliner in the States playing like huge venues, like Nokia Theater in New York, you know, like big. And we got on that tour direct support, which was super cool.

And I saw that through. And I think there was just some disagreements with money along the way. You know what I mean? And I got towards the end of it and I just felt like my time had come, you know, I was like, I need to, I'm going to go pursue something else. You know what I mean? I supported the album a bit, you know, did some tours, made a little bit of a name for myself.

And I'm like, maybe this will be enough to carry me somewhere else. And, yeah, it was like, all happened, like, really, really fast. Like, I did my last show with them, you know, in, like, late 2006, you know, was like a big festival. And then. And then. And then. Well, that happened somewhere in there.

but also I had I had got a message from Jonah I killed the prom queen bleeding a bunch of bands Jonah messaged me is like hey there's this band popping on my space like they're just blowing up like young kids

and Metal Blade just picked them up and they're going to be like top priority for 2007 he's like they're looking for a drummer you should go check it out I'm like cool what's the name he's like band's called Job for a Cowboy I was like okay so I go and I watch a video they had a video for like one of the tracks off the Doom EP.

Yeah. And I was like, you know, it's heavy. There's blast beats in it. I was like, I think, I think this is something that I could work with. You know what I mean? Yeah. And maybe take it like a bit more of a bit more brutal route. And they were babies.

You know, I mean, look at them. Yeah, they're children. Yeah. And we're young. We're all young. And so basically I ended up getting in touch with them and knew some people that kind of got me pushed to the front of the line. and ended up going out to Arizona

and auditioning for them, like, right after. Oh, you actually went. Oh, yeah. Oh, shit. Okay. And I get out there, and, like, I'm probably in my, I'm probably 24 at the time, and they're, like, 18. Oh, my goodness.

And they were like, you know, we buy this beer when we go on tour. And I was just like, oh, my God. Like, I just, I was like, I don't know if I can do this. Like, and I was like, just really, like, kind of, not burn out, but, like, a little brokenhearted to see how the industry can be. It will fucking tear you down.

It sucks. And at the time, I really wanted to do it, but I was just like, do I really want to do this? Like, what do I want to do? Yeah. And I went out there and I audition and they gave me the job like the same day. And I hung out for a couple days and they were like, we have like a month to write a record. And I'm like, okay. And I was like, what do you got?

And they had like pieces, just little pieces. and they were just sticking stuff together. And I was like, okay. And then they were very adamant. They were like, they didn't want to do this. They didn't want to be that band. Like they wanted to be a tech death band. Yeah, yeah.

And I was like, I love tech death. Don't get me wrong, but those bands play for like 15 people. Yeah. And you guys have never really toured. When you go out, people want to see that and they want to see a whole album of it. Yeah. You know what I mean? If you change too much, like it's not, it's not going to be too good.

You know what I mean? But they were sweet, dude. And so I didn't know I didn't know you actually tried out And I didn't know you were in the band Well I for like a couple days But but you were in Yeah

And I didn't know And I basically My gut told me This ain't it It's not for me Keep in mind My last My last tour with all that remains

We were playing in Phoenix Of all places And a couple of dudes From Black Dolly were there They were on their tour Had a day off And they just came to the show

Oh wow And I ended up talking to To Brian and Trevor Near Merch booth and Brian was like, yeah, man, this is like our drummer's quitting after this tour. It was that dude Pierre from Canada. And he was like, he's quitting after this tour.

And I was like, well, I'm leaving after this tour too. And Brian was like, we should change, we should exchange numbers. And I was like, okay. So we exchanged numbers. But they were like just starting a tour. So they had all this time. And that was like kind of in the back of my mind somewhere. You know, because like I loved their first two albums.

Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, I let the dudes know and job that I was like, I was like, I don't think it's for me, man. Like, I think you guys have enough time. There was enough guys that were doing auditions, like making videos, putting them on YouTube. Yeah. And Charm was one of them. You know, and his audition was really good. You know, and I was like, I think you guys got enough time to find the dude.

You know what I mean? And if you're in a pinch, if you want me to stay and help you work on a record, I can. And they were like, well, we told our prior drummer, you know, Elliot, like, he could be on the record because he wasn't in the band so it wouldn't be fair to have you do it and I'm like I get it so yeah so I left that was that um and yeah it there's like a few stages where I was like I don't know what I'm doing you know went back to Virginia like just didn't know if I was done yet or not and the met the met the girl of course somewhere like somewhere around the end of like all their names yeah yeah and that that actually took me to Michigan

it wasn't black dahlia yeah yeah that was like a what a coincidence that's so bizarre it was one of those like that was meant to happen so this was so this could happen you know what I mean like and I dated her for probably three years you know what I mean and oh it was that was a relationship yeah yeah and got me you know got me up in the Michigan right in the area and I remember I first moved there I texted Brian just thinking well I don't know anybody up here but maybe he'll want to hang out and Brian's like wait you're in Michigan he's like he's like when are you going to try out They still didn't have a drummer.

And I was like, I don't know, man. I just didn't know if I was ready to commit. You know, and I'm like, because I don't want to be like, yeah, I want to do this. And then get into a band and be like, I don't want a tour, I'm homesick, or whatever. Yeah. You know, and Brian was like, you know, call me when you get over your tour phobia. And I was like, shit, that's brutal. Like, this dude, don't even want to hang out with me.

And so I got this, like, job at, like, a guitar center. It didn't take too long of that before I was like, this ain't it, man. Like, I can't be done yet. I'm not done. I have the opportunity to go do this thing that, like, everyone wants to do and dreams of, and I did. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, suck it up and go see it through, dude.

Yeah. Nice. So you have, which you're like, you're, you've been plagued with, like, awkward tryouts for. Yeah, they were all weird. For, uh, for bands. But, uh, so you, you, you tried out at the guitar center floor on an E-Kit, right? Wow. So, so, so, so, so, so you have Trevor.

and bar just kind of looking over your shoulder. And Brian. And Brian. Just standing there watching me. There's like no music, no guitars. It's just me playing drums. Oh my gosh. Yeah, they were like, they were like, play some.

It's like, where's my boss? Yeah. So, and my boss always knew when I was playing because they had the E-Kid hooked up to like a powered monitor and he could just hear in the back, you know. Yeah. And yeah, it was weird. Like I didn't even have time to warm up.

Like I'd just come back from lung. and they showed up. And Brian was like, you want to play on one of these acoustic kits? I was like, no. You know, that's going to be terrible. It's going to sound like crab. You won't hear the kicks.

Yeah, yeah. So I was like, we'll just use this. It was like a role in TD20. It was like, you know, pretty nice kid. Sick. Sick. It got me, like, a real audition. Okay.

That was cool. It was cool. It was enough for them to figure out whether they wanted to mess with me or not. Yeah. You know? Because they had some young kid over there from, like, Germany.

that they were kind of trying out and not super stoked with but they were like, what do we do? They had tried out a lot of people at that point and just weren't vibing. And there's a lot of good drummers that tried out that went on to play another bands and I'm like, man, I don't know how you didn't get it.

Like who? Dan, who plays in Carcass now? He was in a boarded. He was a bunch of bands. He tried out. He was like super young. And I think he was just really nervous because Dan, he's a sick drummer.

He had a great drummer. He had come over from England and tried out. Nick, this is nice thing, Pierce, unearthed drummer. New Pierce, yeah. Yeah, yeah. He was in, he did what, the faceless back in the day. And he tried out. And I don't know why he didn't get it, because he's good too.

Traditional grip. Yeah, yeah, he plays with the, yeah. But it was a handful of people, I think, that tried out that, you know, didn't get the job. Somehow, I don't know what I did. had a good day. They had options. Yeah. And you got it.

Yeah. Because you always brought like a feel to it. You know? And I heard you mention that when you worked at guitar system, which I hear is a nightmare. Yeah. Especially for the drum section of how you're noticing a shift in music where all kids wanted to do is sit down and play as fast as they can. And not learn any of the base. You know yeah. Yeah, yeah. It was like George from Nile and Roddy, you know what I mean? We're all over YouTube with their videos and kids wanted to emulate it. You know what I mean? And I get it because I also wanted to emulate it. Yeah, yeah. But like kids wanted to go from zero to 100. Yeah. You know what I mean? Nothing in between. Yeah. You know what I mean? So a lot of the fundamentals are missing. Yeah. But I guess, yeah. They, what they say that is like if you want to get.

ahead of a competition like just learning the fundamental and basics because that's not so basic anymore right you know people are just like skipping this like foundation part if you just on the foundation you'll actually be ahead of people what's it's interesting metal is one of those genres where the drums are expected to be competitive it's true and it is competitive to a lot of people true maybe not so much to players but to the audience it's like this odd competition where I think longstrith called it what did he call it the uh Like the great BPM war or something like that. Oh my goodness.

It's bands racing to be the fastest or whatever. But like, it's also a genre where people can overplay and just bury guitars. And they can, you know, it doesn't do the song. It's very common. You know what I mean? Yeah. If you go back and you look at bands like OPETH, like OPETH is not a death metal band, but they have death influences in there. But that's a band that like could could overplay if they wanted because they're all such good musicians.

But they do what's right for the song. what's right for the part and they make good songs. And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how technical it is. It matters that the listener likes it and can ingest it. And, you know, are they going to bob their head? Are they going to remember the hook? You know what I mean? I've toured with some bands that were pretty technical and amazing at their instruments.

And after a month, I still couldn't even remember a song. Yeah, that's a good. I could remember a part here and there that I was like, oh, that's a cool part. I remember that when they do it every night. But I couldn't remember songs. And those bands are, it's like music for musicians, you know what I mean? Yeah. You know, and I think you can have both.

You can have like a death metal band that writes catchy tunes. You know what I mean? And you can have, you can have extreme music that, you know, a drummer can bury a guitar player any day. Totally. And that sucks. You know what I mean? It's funny. You saw it back then, but it's actually been an issue now where, like, who can play the fastest.

Oh, yeah. You know, and there's even like another issue where like drummers are, I think kind of what's because you understand being a drummer. We actually talked about it right when the podcast started where like there's like this anxiety

and pressure of being a drummer where there's like there's like this overcritical thing going on and a and now it's, I think drummers are actually, the problem is they're actually listening to it and they're like faking their playthroughs. Oh, yeah.

And if you're a drummer, Or you just know. Yeah. You know, or anyone just telling me, hey, they're not playing that. Yeah. The expectations are, I was like, it's not real. So it's not realistic. The expectations are too much.

I think it puts unnecessary stress on drummers. And I think it creates a lot of, a lot of anxiety. Yeah. And it can really put drummers at, especially drummers at tour, that people put this pressure on them to be like a robot. Yeah. And it can put you in like a negative headspace. You know what I mean?

Totally. Where like it can really mess with you. You know, I've had tours like that where I was just off my game and just in my own head. And man. Mental.

Yeah, just purely mental. Because physical is hardly ever the problem. If you can do it once, you could do it lots. Yeah. Maybe not every time, but you can do it,

you know, there are parts that you probably play that when they come up in your set, you're like, ooh, it's that tricky one where you focus a little too much probably.

Yeah, yeah. And you might even get in your own way. And then there were parts that are technically, maybe technically hard for other people, but you have that such confidence in your head, you don't even think about it, and you just muscle memory, go right through it.

Yeah, it's true. It's, you know, with drummers, it's like that. When you get into that extreme stuff, you start to get into thinking about technique, and you think about balance, you think about muscle groups and how, like, if you're clenching or tensing, your stick height, like,

how do you reserve energy so you can make it through the whole set? Now you have all these things you're thinking about. And then if you're playing to a click, you're thinking about the click. you're thinking about am I tired tonight? Like, am I chasing the click or am I like on fire and I'm like on top of it? You know what I mean?

And now there's like this, there's just so much shit going on in your head. You're no longer the 18 year old kid who's just having fun jamming. Now you're stressing yourself out. You know what I mean? And that happens like the older you get, you know, when you're a kid, you don't think about that stuff. Yeah. You know what I mean? So it just becomes stressful.

And then the comment section is the other problem. people kids comment on stuff and it's like to them it's like this ridiculous competition it's been going on forever you know it used to be the trigger argument

you know oh triggers are cheating and now people have given up on that because they realize like if you want to play this extreme stuff and hear it it's necessary and it's a lie detector you've been on tours

of drummers that had triggers and their feet were off and it sounded terrible oh yeah you know what I mean like every little hit is heard you know so you really have to be on if you're going to do that

yeah Yeah, but now it's like this, who's busier, you know, who's, who's, who's, what, oh, that's boring. Maybe it's best for the song, you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't mean, you know, there's a lot of really technical stuff going on in the drum world today. You know what I mean? That would have its place in a song, but if you do too much, it's just too much. Yeah. Yeah. I think I saw you mention like one of like the hardest parts about joining the Black Dada Dahla Murder was dealing with the criticism.

Yeah. So back then it was like Derek Roddy's forum was like the go-to place. Oh, really? Yeah, for like extreme drumming. Oh shit. Yeah, he had a forum and like he had his own forum. Oh yeah. Yeah.

I mean, dude's that good. You know what I mean? And like those records like he was like Derek one take Roddy because he would literally, he wanted to be a representation of him how he actually plays. So like this is my performance. It's not edited and cleaned up. It's not quantized and sound replaced This is me as raw as can be

And it's sick You know what I mean And there's old videos of him Recording stuff off of like I'm Monarch You know what I mean They're just ridiculous Like who plays like that

Give me one I've seen it before Give me one blast dude Just fucking one Don't we need to put Uh yeah just Oh the slum Exactly

All wrist Wow You notice he's not like doing push-pull He's not using a ton of fingers He uses a lot of wrist And you know why He does it crazy He does it that way because

If you were to close your eyes He does what sounds best to him Yeah yeah It's not about what's easiest It's about what sounds best So that's how he plays Are you sick? I mean

Yeah that does separate him From a lot of the other drummers Where it's just him I think he just plays What he wants to play I suppose he plays what he thinks what people won't want to hear. Yeah, yeah.

Too many people get caught up in the competition, I think. You know what I mean? Some of my favorite death metal is stuff that really caps out at like 230. You know what I mean? True. Because once you get past, and I like stuff that's faster, don't get me wrong. I love crazy over-the-top death metal. But like, once you get faster than 230, it's just fast.

You lose heavy after a certain BPM point. You know what I mean? So, like, if you listen to bands like Cannibal, they're extremely heavy, you know, because they don't go that fast. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's brutal. Like, Decapitated is, like, probably one of my favorite death metal bands. And they really were, like, a 210 to 230 kind of band.

You know what I mean? And they would lock into, like, a groove. They, you know, the drummer didn't overplay, but it would be just this groove that you could sit and bang your head to, you know, for, like, measures and measures. It wasn't, like, too many parts changing too fast. Yeah. I love that stuff, man. You got a groove, man. You got a groove, man.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. So you're in the band. Are you still with that chick or no? When I was in the band? Yeah, right. Yeah, right. Yeah, right.

And you mentioned that you're having trouble with your, you notice that you had to build your stamina and endurance as far as far as you're drumming, right? Yeah, how do you do that as like a drummer? Just play. Just play. And honestly, this is like, this is again, Roddy's advice. Like, Roddy had, you know, practice stuff videos in his, you know, many years ago. And those are useful.

But in one of the interviews that might have been the drummio when he did, he talked about building speed. And he's like, just play songs. You know what I mean? Like, I warm up to like a click, you know, and I will warm up in like steps, you know, where I start off with something that's comfortable for me. And I'll do it for a while to loosen the muscles up. And then I'll climb up a little bit and climb up a little bit. But the real push comes from playing full songs.

Yeah. You know? So that's where, like, the endurance really comes from. Speed comes quick. Endurance is hard to come by. Speed comes quick, but endurance is another thing. Oh, yeah. You can hit like your peak speed for like a bar.

But can you lock in and cruise? You know what I mean? Wow. That's what takes a lot of work. And it's like, when I got, into Black Dolly, it was like I was learning a full set of songs to play live. And then I was also, we just, we started writing. So I'm like, really just put into it. So I just, that was what it was. I played a lot of songs rehearsing. And it took, it took months, you know what I mean,

to get to where I was like really on top and comfortable, you know, but it comes in time. So, so with, with you playing, are you playing just, past uh dahlia records or are you playing like other stuff too like other songs

say oh I like I like playing this song I would sometimes um usually I would just play black dolly songs because it's like just really ironing into the muscle memory um but yeah like

love and decapitated and I would always you know play some stuff from there okay you know um nice you know because some of the black dolly stuff

is not as fast you know what I mean um and then I would want to play something. It was maybe a little bit faster to kind of be comfortable with the fastest song that we had live. Yeah. So, at this point, are you, like, are you jamming, are you practicing every day? Are you, how long are you jamming? Like, what's the? Well, we, we toured so much. Like, if we were home, like, for a month, I would probably

still play four days a week. Four days a week. I got too nervous. to take too much time away. Yeah, yeah, especially. I did not want to struggle when we got back out on tour. I wanted to just feel comfortable. You know, so every now and then if we had a bigger break, you know what I mean? I would maybe take like a week off and then come back

and start hitting it. Nice. Yeah, it was usually probably four days a week. How long did those days last? Oh, like the practice session? Yeah. It depends. Sometimes I'd get in and out of there in 45 minutes.

Nice. Sometimes it'd be an hour, you know. It depends on what I was trying to do. Sure. You know, if I was working on songs for like a new record, I would kind of go in and just kind of, it depends on where I was in that process. So if I had like only one song under my belt,

I would go back and run through that one, and then I would start working on the new song in sections. And then I would just do like kind of a freestyle, free form, just play. Nice. You know, and some I would, you know, crank up the click and push myself a little bit. Nice. Just trying to stay on top of it. Yeah, get the click going.

You get, push yourself, like, a little bit, you know, keep that, uh. There are some guys that, that will practice, like, all day, you know, you know, they'll practice and then they'll leave and they'll come back and practice later. To me, like, the human body can only keep it so much. Like, you go to the gym, you know, you're only going to work out for X amount of time. After that, your body's shot. You're not, you know. Yeah. You got to take a break.

That is true. I have noticed, like, practicing, especially with, like, click and songs, like, full songs. like a few days a week for, you know, at least an hour a day. Like, you, after a few months, you, you're a different player. Yeah. I was like, oh, it's just, like, put on a click and learning, like, battery master of puppets and, like, click and it's downpicking and a speed picking. You know, it's like, after a few months of that during, like, three to four days a week,

I was a completely different player. Oh, yeah. I was, oh, shit, this is, yeah, if you just stay, you know, consistent, there was a big change. Definitely. You know. And the drummer thing is so different because, yeah, it's like you can't. I was always wondering how to drummer's practice because you can't like, I don't think you could practice all day because you're, I mean, you're physically your body.

Mm-hmm. Can't really do it. Right. Huh. Yeah. We're like if you're a guitar player or bass player, we could just sit on her ass and, uh, you know, and I honestly like, practicing was forced a lot of the times, you know, like I was like, I got to go do it.

No. Practice is always forced. I don't want to fucking practice Do you kidding me? I'd have to go get super sweaty and gross And then you know Nobody wants to practice It's like a practice

Oh dear You're fucking shredding I'm on the toilet That was my first ad actually Oh fuck Yeah I just joined all that remains And HQ practice pads Yeah

Jeremy Saffer I don't know if you're Of course yeah I was living with Jeremy For a little while Really? Yeah Oh wow

And this is like In his dad's place in the bathroom. That's sick, dude. Some, like, drum magazine. Actually, I think it won an ad campaign, which is,

you know what? Imagine sending that to your mom. You know what I mean? Like, I made it mom. Yeah, I'm in drum magazine. On the corner.

I might leave that one out. I don't know. I'm not sure. Look, somebody's trying to sell it. Ten bucks. I'll buy it right now, dude. It ain't worth it, dude.

I'll buy both of them. I have the magazine somewhere that it's in. Do you practice? It's like, it's like in a salad. No one wants to do that. Yeah. You don't want to go to the gym, but who wants to practice?

Yeah. You want to play, but you don't want to practice. Yeah, and especially with this kind of stuff I've learned over time, like, you have to be good about warming up. You can't just sit down and play cold. You know what I mean? Your body's not ready, and you're going to put yourself in a headspace that's not conducive for a good practice. Like, you know what I mean? If you warm up and you take your time.

And then you sit down and play songs, you're going to play better and you're going to want to play because you're playing better. Yeah. You know, you're not going to feel like you're struggling. Yeah. I guess that's also my last question about, like, technique stuff. Like, I see a lot of drummers do it differently, especially out on the road. Because again, like, your physical body only takes so much. You're already going to do it for like an hour maybe.

So that's a lot of drumming a day. But you can't just go cold and sit and it goes cold to show how what's like a good like What's a good like what's a good warm up for a show? So so I so so I so I so I could selfishly tell Ernie I don't know a dude's great live so he's doing something right I Basically did a lot of stretches Okay that just whatever felt good for me right. It wasn't like something that was an official like Physical therapist was like you should do this. this. I just kind of did what stretched certain muscles in my legs and even into my feet,

you know, just stretching anything and doing a bunch of weird stretches. And then for hands, it's just getting them going. You know what I mean? Hit a practice pad. I didn't have like any specific warm up or anything. There were times where if we were working on new stuff or whatever or playing songs live, like, you know, I would take the practice pads for the kick pedals. And we would sit there. They had their little microcubes, you know, like backstage. We kind of go through a song on those pads and stuff, which is cool. But then later down the road, it was just like everyone just warming up on their own. Yeah.

You know, do a bunch of stretches. Now, going cold after you play, this is something I didn't learn until later down the road because when you're in your 20s, it doesn't bother. You're pretty resilient. You can bounce back from those stuff. But now, if I play, if I practice and I don't stretch afterwards, my hips will be all jacked up. Dang. Yeah.

Like, it's hard. much harder on the body these days. You know what I mean? I got to do a lot of stretches. And I have to do a lot of hip stretches to maintain mobility there. Yeah. You know, and everybody plays different. So one person might, you know, use a bit more hip flexors than the next person.

Yeah. Yeah, we've been talking because, yeah, we're like, you know, we're pretty close in age. You know, late 30s, early 40s. We're like, we're talking to you. We got to stretch after the show, too. And we're trying to get disciplined and do it. It's just hard after, like, you know, We just did five shots of tequila and we fucking head bang for an hour.

Right, right. But man, we're talking like, we know the science of it. We need to stretch after the show. Yeah. Because you wake up kind of fucked. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

I mean, playing in a band is hard on the body. I don't think people realize that. Especially metal. Oh, yeah. I mean, even going out and like, you guys are very like active on stage. Like, you're all over the place. It's full body for you. You're not just standing there and bobbing your head.

like it's full body like it's hard on people it's hard on the body and yeah it is you see you see a lot these guys that are much older than us that are still out playing shows and like you know they have braces and yeah you know what I mean like their bodies are jacked man I need a neck break suit be sick I'd be sick the logo on a fucking oh yeah from a friend of a bit to be sick I can fucking sell them too yeah see look at that that's your whole body I'm three nine dude I'm fucking three nine dude like like not just because we're here. You have one of my favorite, like, stage presence for, like, a guitar player. Oh, Shannon. Thank you, man. It's...

Appreciate that. So, there's a lot of guys in metal that have, like, motions that they make on stage. It almost looks, like, rehearsed, you know what I mean? Oh, yeah, yeah. And it's a lot of borrowed stuff. They see one guy do it, and then they do it and whatever. But then, and you see some people that have a stage presence where there's, like, integrity to it. Like, you know, every note they're hitting is, like, they're feeling it. You know what I mean? Yeah, and it's not a rehearsed thing. It's just how it must. moves you and you can tell the difference and I love that like because that moves me it makes me pumped you know totally I always tell people that su La Sons is that best and worst band in the metal

because if we're on it it's like it's on it but it we're we're off it's just it's terrible we are we're our energy based band like we know we're not all like feeling like we're not all like a unit right dude like we've done full tours like we did we went to europe with uh line Heart and Kubla Khan that tour sucked ass something was just off right we couldn't like just couldn't find that connecting but it's a fun because we're doing like the same thing but the people can notice too right I can't put it in into words I can't well and all bands I can't go through that right all bands go through those phases where like there's like a year or a few months or whatever where like it's like they're going through the motions yeah where maybe it's just

things going on in people's personal lives you're all sure sure they bleed into there's no way you can't right and um you know but usually they'll come out of it and find their way and you know yeah um it's like that they you know the love for doing it you know they find it again and it comes back yeah it comes back yeah but it's a tiring thing to be in a touring band and it you know you're expected to there's a lot of expectations out of you there is man i mean everyone expects you to be 100% like everything every night and it's like man man it's like man Some people just, we all have just shit days. You know what I mean?

There's going to be days where like, it's just not there. No, there's going to be days where you're like, I just want to set this guitar on fire. You know what I mean? There was whole tours for me where I just was like, I don't want to play drums anymore. Like I hate this shit. Like, you know what I mean? And it sucks. It makes you feel bad.

At least it did for me. I felt bad those times of my life because I felt like, man, I'm in this like such a unique opportunity. Yeah. I'm living a dream. There's tons of people would like, you know, give their. left nut to be here doing this, you know what I mean? And I'm over here like, I fucking hate it. I hate playing drums. You know, it makes you feel shitty. But at the same time, like, it's not easy. That's true, man. You know what I mean? And you go through different phases of

your life where, like, you're on it or you're off of it. And I have so many fond memories of tours where, like, that whole tour I felt on it. And like, I want nothing, you want nothing more to be there because you're on top of it. You know what I mean? And it's the tour is where, like, you're just not, for whatever reason, something going on in your life and you're not playing your best. Those are like miserable times if you think back, you know, to those memories. Yeah, man, that sucks, dude. It sucks. I know, well, Shannon, I know a lot of people want, want to hear from you. So, so we have, so we, we, we have to hit it. How was, uh, so the first record you worked on with Dahlio was nocturnal. You know, how is,

how, how, how was that process with, with you? Um, I was fresh in the band and I was learning, trying to get tight with all their prior material because we had to play some shows and we were writing at the same time and this was fortunately that newer experience where somebody could come to practice and say here's a song

you know it would be like guitars and some really rough you know program drums oh yeah you know and I would take it and try to like make it reality you know what I mean because some of the stuff you listen to and you're like if I had four arms I could play this you know what I mean

but like this isn't feasible so you try to like stick with the skeleton of the song because as a guitar player when you write when you write songs you have you can feel like a roller coaster you feel like this part is going to be oh it's a thrash part here this part here

half time heavy whatever or this part I'm hearing a blast beat underneath of it like you have a vision for the song you're writing a drummer could come in and do something completely opposite and all of a sudden you're like I'm not feeling it so I would always try to like listen to what they would

program and say alright here's here's what I know that they're hearing and here's how I can take this and make it mine you know or if there's just something sick like they just clicked on a bunch of crap made a fill that was cool I'm like my keep you know what I mean why why change it if it's good yeah yeah um so there was a lot of stuff in there that was programmed that I kept and then there was some stuff that we kind of hashed out in practice which that you know that changed down the road you know your writing style with a band changes sure as time moves on but um yeah it was really neat it was kind of like It happened fast when I look back on it.

It always happens fast. Yeah. The album thing was fast. And I think for them it was like the feeling and vibe of that album was like a rebirth almost because they were really worried about, is this the end of the band? Because they had a really hard time finding the right drummer. It wasn't like just any drummer will do. It was like, we want to pick the right drummer that we think is the right guy for the job. And it was like months of this to the point where they were like in dark times, like, is this the end?

you know and so all of a sudden it was like that rejuvenation the band felt like we're back you know what I mean yeah yeah that's cool the material to me felt like that yeah you know what I mean um there's another one of those like perfect storm kind of things you know what I mean like it was just the right time that point in metal like people wanted to hear blasts and they wanted to hear solos like solos were cool at the time you know and and it changes yeah it changes people like solos and then a couple years later it was like, we only want to hear breakdowns. Cut the solo nonsense out, man. I don't care about the wizard shit no more.

Yeah, changes. And then they come back and they leave and whatever. But yeah, man, it was fast. And I was just pumped. Where did you track the drums at? So we actually did the whole, we recorded the whole record in Jersey. I'm trying to remember the name of the studio.

Trachese, maybe. I think that's their best sounding drums. It's interesting. It's just something. I heard you talk about them. You know, it's like a fan sometimes. Like you hear the artist talk about their experience. You're like, but to me, that's the sickest.

I appreciate it. Yeah, yeah. The drums, yeah, that was all done in Jersey. The studio was cool that they had done the Eric. Yeah. So that guy, Eric, who, Eric Rachel. He, his studio, he had. done the first skid row record.

Sick. Oh yeah. They had like the plaque in there and everything. Nice. Yeah, that's sick. And it was cool. That was like the first time that, or the only time that we had spent in a studio where like the entire band was there the whole time.

Mm-hmm. Like we literally went up there and the entire band stayed in one hotel room for a month, brother. Let's go. Dude, it was like everybody sharing beds and John Kay was on a cot. Like we were in the studio every single day as a full band. After that, it was like, I'm going to get my parts done and I'm going to fuck off and I'll see you guys in the records done, you know? But it was a cool experience

being there for the whole thing. And then we recorded it up there and then Mark Lewis and Jason Sucoff finished the rest down in Florida at Audio Hammer. So they mixed and did all the tone stuff. It was so funny because those drums, at the time, they were sound replacing a lot of stuff still.

Okay. You know, so we weren't going to quantize or anything like that but like initially jason wanted to sound replace the tombs with like bigger tombs and i was like no i was like that's not me it doesn't sound like me there's no sound like my drums absolutely not i'd have put my foot down you know what i mean and so that like kind of started that motion of like we're going to do things as organic as we can yeah okay so do you sound replaced those drums no we we blended some of the snare okay but you know and obviously you know and obviously obviously kick trigger, kick trigger.

Of course. But what you hear is what you hear. And then the records I did with them after that were even more, you know, organic. Oh, okay. So you don't really like the sound of those drums. I like them. No, I like them. You don't love them.

I think... You don't get horned up by them. No, they don't bother me at all. I think, I think Ritual had my favorite sound for the drums, I think. but yeah they're all sick I guess it was just like a perfect storm it was also like the guitar tone too

it's kind of like the way those two things kind of mesh it was like oh it's fucking I like the guitar tone on that record a lot you was fucking sick do you remember what what they did I don't I don't I know they were reamping a bunch of stuff but I don't

fuck yeah and I knew I knew far less about like tone and amps back then I knew nothing about that stuff yeah because I know I know your guitar player I'm sure you're those there's like geeking out out, you know. Like, at the time, I was so focused on drums in my life that guitar just was an afterthought. Yeah.

I didn't even play for a long time. Mm-hmm. It just wasn't even a thing. And I regret that because, you know, could have probably took, taking some really good guitar lessons. Sure. You know, like, sit down Ryan Knight and teach me all day and day, you know, but, uh. Yeah. Yeah, but it's, it's a phenomenal record, man.

Thank you. Thank you. Dude, how, how was it for you? Um, so you were. work at this guitar center and then how how long was it to where you joined the band and then you came back that is it that is it the same guitar center that that you came back to and did and did did that clinic the same one yeah what was that span oh let's see it's probably almost year and a half two years two years two years so yeah one year you're working two years later

like you come back with brian and do a clinic that that would be a kind of like a, I'm mind fuck. It was interesting. Yeah. That's crazy. I still knew some cats that worked there at the time. You know what I mean? So they would.

That's crazy. And it was like, it almost didn't happen. It was like a last minute thing. And it was like snow and ice on the road and, you know, it was wild. We had, uh, we had just acquired Ryan Knight, actually. He had just joined the band. We were gearing to go off on the tour with him. Nice.

Yeah, it was. Yeah. We're watching it now. It's just a nice crowd. Seems Brian brought his half stack. Yeah, I didn't, uh, he was using something. Yeah, he was, but basically, I didn't have, like, tracks to play along to. I just had my click, and I was like, I don't want to just to be drums.

That's weird. Yeah. So he agreed to, like, play guitar. And, uh, which I think, I think he begrudgingly did. I think it made him actually kind of nervous. Oh, sure. Yeah. You know.

Add your comfort zone, man. You got to do it. We all, we got to do it. No, we just did. We just kind of winged it, you know. Did two songs, and then we just kind of, I kind of talked about, like. Hey, I tried out for the band, like, in the room over here. What the fuck?

That's cool, man. Yeah. It was neat. You know, I honestly was, I wasn't going to do a clinic because I was like, I don't think I'm a clinic. What the hell do I have to say that people want to listen to? And we were over playing some festival in Europe. And it was Sean from Cynic who actually. talk me into doing it.

What do you tell you? He just said, man, he's like, because I said, I don't think I do anything that anybody's going to want to hear or, you know, who the hell am I, right? I'm just some dude who plays blast beats at different speeds. Like, those guys in my mind are like,

you know, scientists when it comes to drums. You know, they do stuff that's just ridiculous. And he's like, dude, it's not about that. He's like, people want to hear what you think about when you play. You're like, how you do it, your approach. And he was like, it's valuable. He was like, talk about stuff that, you know,

you might not know unless you tour useful things you know like I don't even remember at this point what I talked about but yeah what a kind human being and what a phenomenal drummer

that's awesome man you don't really know you don't know who you're going to connect to every person has their own little perspective difference you know I noticed that like every band is like there's something

you could even be talking about the same thing but they'll have another twist on it. Yeah. You know? Yep. I'm always like, you know, what, what am I going to say with, with, with this band? And each band is different.

They're all, they're a little bit different. Like, now, that's never ends. Yeah. You know. Or one person could read a book that, another person can read the same book and get a whole other. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, I learned that one, one time with, uh, I think me and Eddie were reading like,

like the same book at one time. I read it. I was like, I told it in my, my perspective, if you told me his, I was like, like wow. Yeah. Your takeaway is completely different. We didn't read the same book. Yeah.

And I mean, with musicians, we're all on this journey. You know what we get out of it can be completely different. I know, man. And approach to songwriting and all that, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's cool listening to people in their approach. Dude, how was it for you being in the band with Trevor? Trevor was also my roommate for a good chunk of the time when I was in the band.

we connected on a lot of things like we were everybody in the band like death metal but when we when we were on tour or even at home we both listened to you know the most obscure grind or like just you know toilet death metal you know what I mean

like the shit that 10 people listen to you know what I mean like we would vibe on that shit that's cool um he was such a sweetheart you know what I mean like I'd go over to his room we had we had this like two bedroom duplex you know at one point both of us found that we were kind of single not living with or or if dating not living with the person you know so it was like hey we should

just get a place together you know so I lived brief for about a month I lived in his mom's house with him nice and and and then we came back from tour and we went and found this little duplex and we moved in there and so I was with him 24-7 on tour and 24-7 at home but we were We were home a lot of the times he would just be in his room with a door shut. And he was quiet. Like there were days where I was like, he's all right there? You know, like, I haven't heard of peep out of this guy. Yeah.

You know, and he was probably in there like headphones on in his underwear, like listening to death metal. Hi. And he'd fall asleep and he'd wake up, rinse, repeat. You know, and occasionally I'd catch him in the kitchen like with a cereal box, you know, tipped up to his mouth. Ad of boy. Yeah. You know, it scared of shit out of him because he didn't see me coming. But, yeah, he was fun and just love to have fun.

You know what I mean? Like we connected on like retro video games and old horror movies and, you know, like, yeah, he was awesome. And very like generous. Like we had a tour. Actually, it was when we went out, we went to South America with you guys and Cannibal. Like right before the tour, I had my vehicle broken into and they stole like my luggage and everything. So I had like, yeah, had no fucking clothes. Oh, shit.

I didn't know that. My laptop, like everything. They stole a bunch of shit out of there. Oh, that sucks. And I had just driven back up to Michigan to start rehearsing, you know, for a few days before the tour. And I'm like, I don't need clothes. And so, like, I'm like, people are like giving me stuff, you know, like, here's some pants. Like, you know, I can wear a pair of pants for an eternity.

But, like, you know, Trevor gave me some of his, like, cool death metal shirts that didn't fit him anymore. You know what I mean? That dude was like, he was a collector. You know what I mean? So for him to part ways with old death metal. shirt is like a big deal yeah you know what i still have like a old mayhem shirt that he gave me but uh yeah man he was one of my favorite lyricists not just because i was in the band but like he was brilliant brilliant he was he was a word smith super intelligent i used to ask him you know

what do you do you think you would do if we don't do this anymore you know when we were old farts and yeah we can't we can't get out there move around and i think he at the time he thought he maybe would write books like he'd be a writer you know he was he was like an english major and was he yeah oh shit like yeah and and i think he would have god he would have been so brilliant at writing like horror novels that would have been sick yeah he'd have been so good at it um but yeah like fun on tour you know what i mean i mean i think he really felt like he was in his element when he was on stage and um when we would play these like like brutal of or any of those like crazy festivals over in Europe that are like just the gnarly

the gnarly bands you know like he loved it that was like his people you know what I mean there are people that like the same shit that he liked and you know what I mean because at the day like we're probably a little weird in comparison to like your normal everyday Joe especially if you're into like crazy death metal like that you know what I mean and that was like people that were like him you know what I mean and he was like such an encyclopedia of metal that dude knew yeah he knew like years and labels and like songs and members like he just

he just retained that stuff like every day he'd have like CDs shown up at the house every day in the mail he had a collector I mean it was like short prints of like a CD that a small tiny band put out you know that probably only made a hundred of them or something you know like wow and he just he loved that shit you know what a connoisseur loved it like what a connoisseur

you know lived it yeah yeah I'd walk over to his room with my iPod because this was like iPod era we went on tour and you want to load up something new to listen to and I'd be like man hook me up with some music man because I knew he just always had like new shit and I'm like not too much because I'll never get through it oh yeah you know it'd be like 12 gigs of music I'm like I can't get through this yeah you know but he was just so excited about it you know he loved to to share music you know and that enthusiasm so like in the van you know we're touring the van yeah if I was driving I knew there were certain songs if I put on and I could look in the rear view and I'd see him back

there like you know like old morbid angel and stuff you know that like I knew he he dug you know yeah so yeah he was a blast you great guy man yeah yeah it's fucking sad what uh what happened dude yes it's really sad was what's kind of weird about that moment when uh when Trevor pass was uh oh no it's it might sound weird but uh literally like A week before he passed, and I had a weird feeling about him. Yeah. Weird. He had done some interviews where he was a little bit open about how he was feeling.

And, you know, I think from the outside looking in, it looked like he was doing things to try to, you know, help himself. Yeah. You know what I mean? From even the people in the camp, you know, I think everyone kind of assumed like, okay, I mean, he's trying. He's, you know, doing things to, like, you know, try to find his way. Yeah. You know, and that wasn't a thing when him and I live together, like, he just had some anxiety.

You know what I mean? Yeah. It was nothing that, you know, getting high couldn't solve, right? There's a little weed, you're good to go, you know? But, like, at some point that doesn't do it anymore. You know what I mean? And as we get old, things change. You know what I mean?

And him and I hadn't really talked in quite a while, which is a shame, you know, but, you know how it is when you're in a band with people. like you see them all the time and then when you're not with them or you're not on tour with people like you just everyone's busy and you just don't talk and it's not because of any given reason yeah you know what I mean everyone's just doing their own thing you know what I mean and so we just we hadn't talked in in years you know what I mean I missed them you know what I mean but it was what it was you know he was living his life and doing his thing I think in the beginning when I left he took it hard you know what I mean it was almost like I got the vibe

he felt like I abandoned him or something. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I went about it the best way that I could. I'd give him plenty of notice. I stuck around, did some tours after a, yeah, let him know I was leaving, just because you got to give him plenty of time. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Helped him pick a drummer. You know what I mean? Gave him a drum kit. Alan still uses that damn thing. And, yeah, there was a period of time where he just didn't, I don't think he had anything to say. And it's not that I did him wrong.

I think it was just like, when people go through a, breakup, sometimes it's easier to be angry with a person than sad that they're not around. You know what I mean? People will find a reason just to be angry. You know what I mean? Because it's easier to cope with that, I think. That's true. You know what I mean?

And even Brian, Brian went through a phase where, like, he didn't have much to say to me. And it was not a good reason. It was heartbreaking for me. You know what I mean? But eventually that went away and, you know, we talk and it's all good. We all love each other. Yeah, yeah. Time passes.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dude, I've done that, like, just, uh, even just like get out of bed or like, uh, or just, I don't know, go to gym something. I'll like make up stories in my head. Just whatever, whatever it helps you. Yeah. You know, I've learned.

Yeah. So I didn't, I didn't hold it against anybody. You know what I mean? Like even, even Ryan, you know, Ryan, he was, he was never shitty towards me or anything. You know, Ryan and I would occasionally text or whatever. but I think he was bummed too It felt like big things were changing You know what I mean?

Yeah, it's sad, man Big things were changing Because it was like Ryan or Bart You know, and then me In like a year span You know what I mean So it was like

The whole rhythm section had changed You know what I mean And the dynamic was gonna change Yeah You know what I mean And I think they've gone on To write brilliant records I think it's great what they're doing

You know what I mean But it was just at a time In my life where I was like I have to leave. My headspace is like, it's no Bueno, you know what I mean? And I need to change in my life. You know what I mean? And I don't think living out of a suitcase

forever is for me. You know what I mean? I think I have to figure out what the next chapters of my life look like. Metal and drums are always going to be in it and they're always going to be very an important part of my life. Yeah. But, you know, at some point it's like, I want to

own a house and, you know, I have a retirement or something and figure out, you know, I I want to figure out what I'm going to do forever. You know what I mean? I want to be home and be around some family and, you know, all the things that you really miss from being like a full-time musician. Yeah. You know, so, yeah, it just was the time, you know, whether they liked it or not.

It was just time. Yeah. Yeah. And it was, you know, for me, no hard feelings. I love, I love those guys. And, you know, very proud of everything that we did. It's cool. There's some of the best times in my life, you know what I mean.

But. And you got the memories, man. I was like, man, I can't picture myself at like 50 years old back there trying to like, you know, play these songs. Like, at least not an hour and some change worth of death metal. You know what I mean? Not every night. Like, so. So you guys part ways.

And then what? You moved back to Virginia? Yeah. Well, I was actually already in Virginia. But I ended up in back in Richmond. Okay. I was still married at the time. And Mike's wife was a tattooer.

She was getting a visa. to come over and live and the tattoo city so it was like perfect for her to live in Richmond is it really? Oh yeah it's yeah it's one of the most heavily tattooed cities in the U.S.

Really? Yeah, it's crazy. I didn't know that. There's a ton of shops there. Oh, okay. Yeah, so like that was a good spot for her and I was just trying to figure out what the hell I'm going to do. It's like, what am I going to do? I don't know what life looks like after this, you know? I had some side project stuff going on. I left BDM in 2012, and by 2013, I think I recorded three albums that year.

Yeah, you recorded some of my records, right? Yeah, so I was still kind of trying to stay on top of things, but it was just a weird time, man, weird time in my life. Yeah, I did the Battlecross album in 2013. Which one I did it got? I'm sorry. Battlecross? Yeah, which records?

War of Will. War of Will. Okay, so for people listening and watching. I did that album. It was like a, and that was a last minute thing. You know, like I was friends with them. They're from Michigan as well. And they were out touring and had an issue with the drummer and part of ways last minute.

And they were scheduled to go in and record with Mark Lewis. And they, they got hit up and they were like, hey, man, would you be willing to come in and like record an album for us? I was like, sure, win. And they're like, in two weeks. And it's like, okay. So, you know, send me everything you got, right? And then go in there and just try to figure it out on the spot. You know what I mean?

So I was writing drums on the spot. Oh, my. You know, helping with some structure and stuff like song structure or whatever. And then it was, I had another project that same year, asphalt graves, which is if you go all the way back to the Warthorn era, that's the guitar player from Warthorn, Adam. So we wanted to do another grind band together. And this was like years in the making. Yeah, it's the guy. Hard.

Standing right next to me in the middle. That's Adam. And so he wrote the whole record, bro. And, you know, we talked about what we wanted. And we even picked a couple covers. And then the problem was who's going to be in it. So it changed over time. Initially, Shane from Napalm death was go play bass on it.

and because we actually BDM is over in Europe and we crashed at Shane's house and I played him a track and he was like yeah I want to do it I was like sick I was like Shane from napal and death on this record

how cool is that and vocals Trevor's actually going to do it initially oh wow and then once the departure we just weren't really talking so he wasn't down and that's fine so we ended up getting Jason from Misery Index

who really kind of I think fit the project best with his approach with the vocals. And what he envisioned. So, yeah, it ended up being a cool project. But did that one. And then there was the serpentine dominion thing with Adam Dean, corpse grinder. It's heavy, dude.

It was a cool, it was a cool album. Recorded all three of those in 2013. That's a busy year. Yeah. Yeah, and then it was like silence after that. You know what I mean? Wow. It was like not a lot.

Well, I filled in for Battlecross. for like a good six months. Marriage didn't work out. And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I just want to escape. So I ran away from my problems and went out on the road for like five or six months. And then eventually it was like, catch it up to you.

I was like, I got to deal with my problems. Yeah. So I still got to figure out what I'm doing for the rest of my life. It's called growing up. I can't, I got to process these feelings. You have to. The only way you deal with is to go through it.

You know what I mean. That's just. Go. Go through it. Yeah. So. It's it, man. Yeah.

And so you went through a period in your life where you didn't really want to deal with metal. And then you talk about what ignited your passion and love again and what was actually black metal. Yes. A dark phone to be more specific, right? Yeah. I really appreciate their approach to their craft and their music. You know, and it's pretty much a, I don't give a fuck approach. They do it for them and not for anybody else.

And that's truthfully, that's how art should be. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. Yeah. You know, because once you get into the industry and you're doing it for a job, you have to kind of cater a bit to A, your fan base, B, what's happening. Like, you can't just do anything you want, right? Your band might just tank next week, right?

So. Oh, man. And that's the game. That's the game you play. But, I mean, if you get to do it for a living, that's also super sweet. Yeah. But I just got to that point where I just wasn't inspired by a lot, and I didn't even really care about playing a whole lot.

There were, like, some years in there where I was focusing on a new career where I didn't even really play drums. Wow. Like a whole, like, year, or I just didn't even play. You know what I mean? And that's frustrating because when you go back and you sit down in the kit, you want to be able to do some of the stuff you used to be able to do it. And I was like, nope, I can't do any of that, you know?

So I would get frustrated and be like, I'm fucking, I don't care, you know? But yeah, I was like, just viving on a bunch of black kids. metal and like dark throne they put out like damn near an album every year you know what I mean it's not every year on the money but like they put out a lot of records and it's what they want to do yeah so it's you to taught me that where I didn't know they put out so much music and also they refuse to play shows yep 96 I think it was the last time they played a show and they've they've been offered a lot of money and they're just

like no worse yeah they're like no that's not why we're doing it do you know I mean I I assume he went down like a rabbit hole. I mean, had they talked about it? Like, why? A little bit in interviews. It's just not what they're about. It's really like their experience and what they want to do. And, you know, they don't care about the fame and notoriety.

They don't care about money. You know what I mean? Like, they've detached themselves a bit from, I think, you know, what black metal was in the early 90s, which there were. To me, there's a lot of similarities with old punk in black metal. Yeah. You know, there's the anti-everything approach. You know, there's the raw natural.

We're just going to, it's a lot of aggression, and it's very, very raw. And it's not about this perfection in this studio polishing quality. You know what I mean? And there's a message and a feeling. Yeah. And then there's anger. You know what I mean? And much like punk rock, you have something that's supposed to have no rules.

And eventually it develops rules. Yeah. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's like with punk rock. Like now there's, I don't know about now, but like you saw it go from like this anything, right? We can sound like anything. And we don't have to be great musicians and we can dress how we're going to dress.

There's no dress code because they were very anti that kind of thing, right? Conformity. Yeah, yeah. You know, and then fast forward down the road. And then it's like, now there's a dress attire. You know what I mean? It's like, how old is your leather jacket? You know what I mean?

Is your, is your like amoebics patch? original or is it like new you know what I mean like stupid shit like where it doesn't matter it doesn't yeah true you know people get way too caught up in that and it's it's one of the most gatekeepy genres ever you know what I mean like and I don't really care like people have their opinions and that's fine you know what I mean that that kind of approach though gave me it gave me that like feeling of you know it doesn't matter it doesn't matter what people think you know what matters what matters is how it makes you feel. Yeah.

What if you want to record some songs that are not polished that are just power cord ripping with blast beats and, you know, low production. And you just want to put out stuff and put it out. It makes you feel good. Like, that to me was like that exciting feeling that you got when you were like in your early teens, playing guitar. You know what I mean? You just want to jam. It's just want to rock.

You know what I mean? And it was just a lot of other black metal stuff that I was listening to that I just really dug. And I was just, I just felt inspired. You know what I mean? And it was like, I want to make it. music again, you know. And so I bought like a nice rolling kit because I'm like, this would give me the ability to practice more. I mean, I could play my drums a little too, but this would give me the practice and I could actually maybe record these drums pretty easily. You know what I mean? And

maybe I'll grab like a cheap guitar and just write some black metal or something. That was like also the thing that ignited the guitar coming back into the forefront of my life. Yeah. You know what I All of a sudden it was like wanting to go back and relearn and learn stuff I didn't know when I was a kid. Yeah. Yeah. You know, amps. But yeah, the whole black metal universe is really interesting. And I like the conversation you had with, what is his name, Kyle from Vitriel.

Oh, yeah, yeah. He said it really well. Like his explanation of like black metal and like the production or lack thereof. Oh, yeah. And why, you know, and the vibe and the attitude. behind it. I think he said it really well. You know what I mean? You know, it was all intentional

to make you feel something. You know what I mean? It was intentional. Yeah. Like this, the feeling in the space where they were at in the world, you know, like, it's cold as shit. You know what I mean? And something that sounds, you know, back then in early 90s was like,

they wanted that tone, not even a tone. They just wanted a sound that sounded like cold and dead, I guess. it explains a lot because I came into like the black metal but maybe do you research on black metal was Kyle because you know because you're when you're outside or just like oh like it sounds like it sounds like shit you know I mean I just put it very bluntly and then he would talk about those recordings I was like okay maybe kind of re-switch my perspective

and then I met the allard from dark Bruno so I did more research I watched that too did more research on blackmail like oh shit this is crazy now you're kind of solidifying it. I was like, oh, wow, there's just something, there's a lot more to those recordings than I even knew or thought, you know? I didn't think, oh, yeah, it's where,

it's where they're from, it's, it's, it's their intention is they wanted people to know, like, where, where they were and where they felt, it's cold and it fucking dead. There's a vibe to it, you know, there's 100% of vibe when you listen to those, those records from that era. And I get it. I understand the production side of things and why people might not like it.

You know, then there were, you fast forward, there were bands that were out there doing black metal albums with better production. And of course, they caught shit for it. But it doesn't matter because it still sounds sick. You know,

like Immortal caught a bunch of flack, you know, when they started to put out stuff that had a better production to it. But it didn't matter because it was sick. You know, mayhem. Even mayhem caught flack. You know,

when they put out the, that album, Camara, it was had just had a better production than the prior albums. It's one of my favorites. This sounds too good. Yeah, people were pissed about it and it was like, what are you kidding me? This album is gnarly. When this

try to get some info on this. Was it 0.3, 05, somewhere around there. Jay, just pressed a wiki. There you go. 04. Oh, 4? Really? Yeah. Oh, crap. I thought it sounded ridiculous. And so they had a member, the singer change after this album.

And Attila came back. Attila did their first, well, you could arguably call it their first release. But anyways, he came back and did, he's been with them ever since. Yeah. But the album, yeah, Order at Cal, they did this, if I'm pronouncing it correct, I'm probably butchering it. But they did this album, yeah, 2007, terrible production. On purpose. On purpose.

Yeah. Like, I like it. I like it. Because it basically, it sounds like they were just recorded in a bedroom. And it's sick. Wow. It's very, it's very. It's very organic and there's nothing fancy about it, but it's cool.

Wow. And it was basically like kind of like a, to me, I saw it as like a middle finger, you know, kind of like, fuck you, we can do, we can still do this. We're still the same band. Like, look, here's a not overly produced album. That's sick. We're still ripping. You know what I mean? I don't know.

Mayhem is one of my favorite bands. But, uh. Is this it? Yeah. This song is nine minutes long. That kind of sounds good. I like it. Sounds good.

And if you compare it to, like, the prior album, obviously, the production sounds a lot different, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, I love that album. But there's a vibe. There's a vibe to all this stuff, you know what I mean? And there's a lot of sincerity in that genre that you don't get in other genres. Like, obviously there's black metal bands that are, you know, it's an act.

You know what I mean? It's a costume. It's for the extremity, much like death metal, right? Like, and that's fine, too. Like, you know, cannibal corpse. like they're not out, you know, killing people and doing the crazy stuff it's in the, in the lyrics. You know, it's extreme lyrics for extreme music. It's how death metal is.

Yeah. You know what I mean? It's fantasy. Mm-hmm. You know, and black metal, I think there's a lot more, for some of the bands, it's a lot more integrity to it because it's, there's something in there that's their life. And they take it very serious. Yeah, I learned that. So, man, that's like, that's like who you are, you know?

Yeah, it's not like, as you said, it's not a, it's not a. It's not a costume. Yeah. It's a way of life for some of these folks. You know what I mean? A new found, a new farm respect for it. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I get how it's not for everybody. I mean, same for death metal, but. But hey, I mean, whatever works, I mean, whatever re-enites your flame and, and gets you back. So it's cool that you found something. Yeah. All of a sudden, I was like buying all these old records,

you know, these black metal records and stuff and collecting a lot of that stuff. Sick, dude. And then it was like, and then I found myself collecting records of stuff that I just loved as a kid. Yeah. You know what I mean? And I was like, that kid again that wanted to buy all the CDs. You know what I mean?

So then I was like, st stoked. I was going back and listening to like old mega death and, you know, old Metallica. Nice. And just revisiting all these classics, you know what I mean? And then going even further, going back and like getting into like old kiss and stuff like that. Like, you know, starting to really pay attention to stuff that I didn't listen to when I was younger. When you're young, you're like, I only listen to this type of music. You know what I mean?

Yeah. Now it's like you go back and you see the influence that these bands have on other bands and that, oh, well, this band wouldn't have existed if it hadn't have been for Sabbath. You know what I mean? And like you start to hear the influence, you know. That's an interesting take, like listening to Black Metal with Open Mind. Interesting. Yeah. It's a great concept.

The gatekeeping thing, you really only hurt yourself in the long run. If you're open to music, you're going to find it in a big. appreciate a lot more stuff. Yeah. You know, like, that's like the whole conversation around, you know, subgenres and labels, right, talking about, you know, when people were bashing on deathcore, whatever, you know what I mean? Yeah. You know, at some point, people just stop and they grow up and they're like, yeah, music's just music, just enjoy it.

You know what I mean? It doesn't have to be this, you don't have to silo yourself into this little teeny thing. It's not your entire identity, you know what I mean? Totally. I mean, and Trevor was a great. example. He was known as like, you know, the mayor of death metal town, right? Because he knew so much about it and was such a big fan. But he also really loved the band, not a surf. I was like one of his favorite bands. You know what I mean? Was it? Not a surf? Never heard of them. They were kind of

like at the end of the grungish era. Not a surf. Popular for like, yeah, their main song was popular. What year was that came out? Ninety-six. Try to get a quick chorus or something. 96. But yeah, he loves stuff like this. Okay. This is interesting. All right, cool. He was pretty eclectic.

Nice. He was another one of those guys that, like, just, if he liked it, he liked it. You know, it didn't matter. More people should be that way, I think. Yeah, it's true. You know. You know, I learned that a, I think a genre becomes a genre when you start getting the gatekeepers, unfortunately.

That's when the genre actually blows. up unfortunately. Dude, like, Dead core does not fuck with us. It's like a weird, now it has like a whole gatekeeping thing now. It's changed, hasn't it?

It's, it's bizarre. It was weird being, uh, I will say this, it was weird being in a, uh, like a Swedish style of death metal band

when Death Corps started to blow up. Because all of a sudden, like, people didn't want to hear the solos and like, they didn't care about death metal. It was like, you know, we didn't have any,

we didn't have any, we didn't have any mosh parts, really. You know what I mean? So it was like weird watching the scene change right in front of us. Interesting. You know what I mean? Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah. Because at some point you step back and you're like, should we slow down? Like, are we going too fast now? Sure. You know, like, I remember playing some show and like, you know, we were, it was a festival type of show and Acacia Strain was playing as they were direct support. And I love those dudes. I've known Vincent since all that remains there because they're from the same town. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

and they were direct support for us and man that show was theirs kids didn't give a fuck about us like we went on it was like a terrible show for us and the whole band was miserable because we knew like no one cared yeah I mean it was like you know just this weird shift in in metal and stuff where it was like you know our guitars didn't have enough strings or something you know what I mean like there were you know we were going too fast or something which is fine it is what it is but like yeah it's interesting to watch the genres change and then change more change more full circles go back go leave again every scenario is just playing out in real time it's all just metal at the end of the day

it's all metal you know what i mean oh dude he calls swithasant's metal dude i might i might get jumped nah it's metal it's all heavy oh my goodness dude i used to call it swissontz out a death one on a band. I'll get crushed for that. Totally. Do what? Blast beats. Blast beats. Yeah. Screaming. No. No singing. What is that? Right. What is it?

Right. Everything has to have its own little home. I was like, what the fuck? But there's so many genre busters, man. Like, like, despise icon got called Deathcore. But I was like, that band like goes fast all the time. Yeah. You mean, yeah, they got some like slammy parts with, you know, that you could call breakdowns and stuff. But they were like, to me, I just saw them as death metal. You know what I mean? Like, my band was fast as shit.

They were fucking quick, dude. They're fucking quick, dude. So I knew, so I knew Dan before he joined the band. Yeah. Like, I met him when he was, I think he was bandless. And, uh, we, we just exchanged, like, death metal CDs and stuff. Hell yeah. You know what I mean?

He loves that metal very much. I loves it. I thought, I thought he was like, death metal or nothing. And then, I heard that he joined Suicide Silence and I messaged him I was like really like not that I disliked the band but I was like really I just didn't I wouldn't have

solved that coming I thought that he would just only probably play in like a unique leader type band you know and he was like dude it's fucking heavy and I was like point made point made bro you know you're like text really I was like really dude well so I got the same thing I got the same kind of comment from

John Longstreth on my space this dates me nice when I joined all the remains oh wow Yeah, yeah, yeah. He made some comment on my MySpace. He was like, you can forget about blast beats, dude. And then, of course, I tried sneaking him in anywhere I could. Yeah, a quick little blast here and there, you know.

Yeah, a little blast and hurt nobody. That's awesome, man. How are you on time? Dude, I got all the time in the world, brother. Cool. All right. So you found black metal, then, and then what do you been doing lately? So the black metal thing kind of led me down.

It was like a, the YouTube. rabbit hole but I kind of I found um this this guy who uh was going and visiting a lot of like locations from early the early black metal then the early 90s scene yeah from like mayhem and stuff so he nice fantoff church that got burnt down you know by you know bursum or whatever and then um just different spots from different like locations um the church that's on the front of you know that one that first mayhem album and um a bunch of different spots And they were really entertaining. You know, he went to Helveté, the record shop,

which is not called that anymore, but what used to be that location. And he had this, like, music playing in the background that was, like, his. You know, he was just making his own tunes and putting them up there. And then I saw that he had, like, a solo project called Triglob.

And I listened to it, and I was like, this is sweet. Like, you know, it's, like, real melodic. I wanted to do something that was really, like, somber and kind of, you know, just melodic black metal, you know, just really sad depressing sounding shit i guess yeah and uh i just left a comment on it and i was like you want to make some tunes man and he he was like wait are you like the shannon lucas that

played drums for black doll and he's like yeah man and he was like i'm down and so we started talking and we talked about like what what kind of black metal we wanted to do and what we were currently inspired by or listening to you know passing some songs around and um yeah he just started writing some tunes originally it was like going to be three songs songs and once we started to like work on the three we realized like this is pretty cool like I think we got something to work with oh yeah that's the logo it's the logo holy fiery ball sticks this might be the most unique metal logo I ever seen so if you're just listening I take that as a compliment I urge you to I can't even describe it it's like you know when when I can see it now now

I can find the letters but when I first saw it I was like I can't read it and I sat with it for like a day like, man, I kind of love this. And it was kind of the same approach. Like Boris, he also wanted something that was like readable. And when I sent it to him, he spent about a day with it. And he was like, yeah, I kind of love this. And, you know, it's one of those where like in black metal, you can find logos that are you can't really read.

But once you know who they are and you associate them with that band, you associate the image. Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? And that's completely fine. So we start working on some tunes and we're like, well, we need, I think we need more members. So a bass player, I already knew who I wanted. So I wanted Noah Martin.

He played for Arsus for many years. And he actually lives like 35 minutes from me. Oh, perfect. And so I hit up Noah and he was like, yep, I'm in. And then we went on the hunt for like a vocalist, and that was really difficult. because we wanted somebody who maybe had some sort of either creed in like black metal music or at least was like really into it that understood

you know and vocally as a vocalist sounded like they fit the genre you know what I mean yeah and it was it was tricky and yeah eventually um we had Adam Clemens in mind um Adam joined Skeleton Witch after Chance left Okay. And I really liked what he did with them. And Adam had done some stuff in black metal. He had another project called Shadala Gough, and it's sick.

And so we were able to reach out to him, and we eventually got him on board, which was super cool, because then I was kind of like, all right, we're good. And then came keys and effects later. You know, wasn't something we thought about initially, but we weren't opposed to it, but we're like, man, this is really kind of vibey black metal, like moody shit, you know? Like, we could stand to have some, like, you know, maybe not like total symphonic, like, dem you,

but, like, you know, more vibe and effects-driven kind of stuff. Nice. And we ended up getting Steve, who was also in Shadar LaGoth with Adam. Nice. Steve actually did all the instruments on the Shadar albums. They have a couple albums. Great. He did keys and effects in, like, in, like, record time.

We literally were getting ready to, like, ship it off to get it mixed. Oh, wow. And there was an incident with a prior person that we were going to have, do some keys and stuff. And we were like, all right, scrap all that. We brought in Steve, and we were like, we're kind of short on time. And he was like, I got it. And nailed it. He nailed exactly the vibe we were looking for. It was perfect. It was like, it just meant to be. Oh, wow. And it's currently being mixed by Mark Lewis. So pass it off to him. He's like, here's some, here's some black metal tunes. And the funny thing, the funny thing with the mixing is, you know, there's a specific sound, right?

We talked about like production and stuff like that. And I, you know, I think Mark was like, what's direction for me, you know? And it was kind of, I was like, I don't know, cold. He was like, I don't have a cold button. What does that mean, you know? But we really talked about, we talked about frequency and volume and I think, you know, we're now kind of on the same page. Like I kind of referenced some, don't sound like, I'm not trying to sound like this

record or this record, but when I say this kind of vibe, here's what you could expect, right? So, yeah, man, this is meant to be a passion project. Like, it's not about money. It's not, we didn't want anybody to feel rushed with time. We've been working on this thing for a few

years. Nice. You know, it's five songs. You know, some of the tracks are a little longer. You know, five, six minutes. But like, we just wanted to do something that was fun. It wasn't about money. You know what I mean? I don't even have a problem paying out of pocket. for shit, you know what I mean?

Before we release, you know, we'll probably try to, you know, get a label involved to help, you know, press and release or whatever. Oh, cool. Ultimately, I just want to, I want to make music and put it out. That's it. Nice. Make more music, put it out. Make more music, put it out.

So I know people are stoked to hear what, what you do, you know? Yeah, it's just, it's, for us, it's just, it's vibe, you know what I mean? And, yeah, there's no competition here. You know, we just want to do something that moves, moves up. us and if people dig it, they don't, then we'll move on. Is there any, uh, is, do you have any kind of release kind of time in mind? Not really, not really. And that's part of the, the benefit of something like this is that we don't have to

abide by some sort of timeline. You know what I mean? I'm sure the mix, mix and master will be done in the next, you know, month or two ish. And then after that, it's figuring out the best way to. release it and how we want to release it. Cool. You guys should put out shirts first. Shirts first.

Yeah. It's like, yeah, we have, you had the logo that put out merch first. You see, you have people like react to it. I should see if Kareem wants to put it out on her night shift. There you go. And then never put out music. Just keep it put out merch dropped. The band that never released a single song.

That would be sick, dude. I could start a whole other project and do that. I'll be, I'm going to do that with the suezance. I'm just going to do that. Band's over. Yeah. Just nothing but merch. I'm sick.

That's my plan B. Sweet. Well, Shannon, are you going to NAM? Yes. So today is your NAM day. Today. Well, I'm here through the weekend, so. Nice.

Maybe bouncing around, hanging out. Bouncing. Hoping to run into a bunch of old friends. Nice. And there's some other YouTube cats are out here hanging. Just dudes with guitar channels that I have made friends with. Oh, yeah, yeah. There's Jamie Slays, a UK dude, does a lot of guitar stuff.

I actually did a song with him. We haven't finished it. I mean, my part's done, his part's done, I guess, but we have to find, you know, vocalist or something like that. But just something fun, you know, to do. Fun. Just something fun. It's collaborating on songs of people.

Eric Moretton, he's got a channel. He does a lot of guitar players that are diamond-thusiest, ripping solos. and I actually took part in it I took a stab at a solo so Really? Yeah yeah yeah yeah so That was a lot of fun Let's go dude Yeah that's dope

Yeah it's a lot of fun man So I'm just here to hang out with a bunch of people And see who shows up Dude you know who should have got to hang with us today was Bart Oh He lives like right up the road He lives here? Well he's in L.A. He does?

Did you ever tour? Do you ever get to a tour of Bart? He had just left I think before we went to South America with you guys that was because max that was like early max i think i don't know we did uh oh you guys did that carcass run and we played we played i think the illinois date

oh i forgot about that years ago i forgot about that man that cry hated us oh i don't know man you guys are on fire i probably seen that way because we were in prime but yeah it's just crowds like that man it's tough carcass crowds

Nile crowds Behemian crowds were just fucking That's where you get in that geeky shit But the Cannibal tour was sick Cannibal was good Cannibal was the one band And like anyone could come play with school Yeah

I wonder how they did that I don't know I think there's such a household name Yeah You know what I mean I don't know How did they do that? They're just

They're so heavy You know what I mean They're so heavy Like when they're blasting It's like chopping wood It's goats That's just fucking praned Ramo blast, dude.

Man, I didn't have time to dig it up, but I got photos when we, we all got to South America. We all got to Brazil. It went to that Brazilian steakhouse. Oh, the steakhouse. And I got a photo of like all three bands at that table. Wow. Chowing down, man. Damn, do those steakhouses were something else, dude.

That's when you feel like like a king sometimes. Every once in a while, I'm like, oh, this is a good, a good moment, dude. Was it, what which was it? Chile? It was an outdoor one. One of those is outdoor. And we had like the tent dressing rooms in the back behind the stage. Oh yeah.

There was like the three porta-potties that had like the band's logo on them. Yeah. I was like, man, we've elevated. We got our own toilet. Don't use my porta-potty, dude. I'll be pissed, dude. That was a good time, man. Shannon, did we miss anything?

We've been going for over two hours. Oh, really? Yeah. Do we miss? anything you want the world to know? Oh, yeah, so there's the Wolven Spirit stuff, and then I don't know when, so I don't know when it's going to get released,

but Ken Bedeni from Aborted has got another project that, so I don't know if you knew, but he's like a killer songwriter. Of course. He's a good guitar player. Nice. A great guitar player, and he's a great songwriter. He's got a project called Aerith.

Erith, okay. And I don't even know its original conception. It was like him, And there was a guy he knows that is a vocalist who wanted to do a project. And originally kind of, I don't know if he hired him or what, but he got Ken to write an album. And it kind of like just grew and sprouted its own legs and stuff. And there's like guests on every single song. Like killer guests.

Sick. Like Lee McKinnon and Cheney. Oh, nice. John Kay, old black dolly guitar player. One of them, Trevor guested it on. Wow. And I ended up getting roped him because Ken and I are buds. And we chat and talk to drums.

a lot. Originally, I was just going to do the one track that had Trevor and John on it. Because it would have been the first time the three of us had it played on the same track since Nocturnal. Oh, yeah, yeah. And I agreed to do that one. I was so pumped, and it was very honored that he let me do it. And then it turned into, we actually just split the album.

So he played drums on half. I played drums on half. Oh, wow. And yeah, so it's interesting. But that's done. I don't know when it's going to get released, but that'll be a cool one. I'm excited for people to hear that, I think, especially the track with Trevor, I think. you know,

people should hear as much as they can. That'll be so, wow. So it's a good tune, man. The whole album's really good. He's a good songwriter. So, yeah, at some point. At some point, right? At some point,

sometime in the future. Yeah, man. You know? Cool, so you're still in Virginia. Just chilling? Yeah, man. Got my day-to-day, got my day-to-day that I love. And, you know, get to play music for fun.

And that's the life for me, man. Dude, it's great to see you, man. I'm honored that you took the time, and, you know, you seem like a private guy. He still came here and told your story. Oh, man. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. I just love chilling.

I'm monitoring, man. It's dope. Yeah, you've had some really cool dudes on this show. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you, man. It's so weird. It's so weird that it's me. Sometimes you see something like, wow, is that me?

It's fucking weird. Killing it out here, man. Killing it. Monitor. All right, well, I'll probably see you. I think one last time, oh, real quick, when the last time I saw you, I was, uh, I was, uh, who's that drunk guy? And then, and then, and then, and then, Ernie said, dude, it's fucking Shannon. I was like, oh, oh, shit. Because I haven't fucking seen you in so long.

Yeah. You know, so it's, it's cool to fucking sit down and chat about, about life, man. Yeah, man. Thank you, man. All right. Well, thanks for having me. I'll see you, uh, I'll see you around them. Sit. Right. All right, man. That's it. Later.