Garza Podcast - 179 - INCANTATION | John McEntee: Death Metal, Guitar, Regret & Making Amends

Episode Date: May 12, 2025

Garza sits down in-person with John McEntee. Vocalist & guitar player for the death metal band INCANTATION. https://orcd.co/incantation-udSPONSORS:Garza Podcast Coffee - https://garzapodcastcoffee.comCHAPTERS:00:00 - 1980s Early Death Metal04:22 - Death Metal Template & Being Original16:48 - KISS21:10 - Guitar & Writing27:00 - Playing Loose vs Perfect30:14 - Learning to Understand Yourself40:06 - Drive & Determination42:06 - Rebuilding, Regrets & Making Amends46:25 - Judas Priest49:34 - Delivering Newspapers & Riding BMX52:29 - Record Town58:37 - Revenant Days1:08:24 - How John Became a Frontman1:17:30 - Bill Korecky1:21:33 - Grateful for the Journey1:29:50 - Chris Barnes

Well, John, Incantation, thank you for your time and thank you for being here, man. Yeah, well, thank you for having me. It's pretty cool to do this. I mean, it seems like you've been doing some great stuff with the channel and stuff. And, you know, it's always nice, especially I think we'll be able to get out to some people that might not know who we are and stuff. So, you know, that's kind of like how it's been working on the tour, having a band on like Darkest Hour on the tour, which is a little different than us. You know, it's good to get some new. you know, kids that might not have heard

our kind of death metal before get their brains crushed in every night's fun. Yeah. They got to hit that 80s death metal. Dude, John, congratulations, dude. You guys, you hit the 80s, brother. 89.

Yes, 89. That's a big... People might say, oh, 90s, 89 or 80 to 79. But, hey, try buying a vintage instrument. Yeah, that one year, you're going to tell. Yeah.

Well, yeah, I mean, because I was an 80s teenager, I grew up on, like, heavy metal, speed metal, like the whole progression until the beginnings of death metal. And when we started, it was still early enough where there wasn't, I don't know, quote-unquote rules. that I started to learn later on. But I come from an earlier scene where there wasn't rules. It was just like just be as brutal and heavy and pissed off and tell the world the fuck off. You know, it was kind of like a mixture between, you know, aggressive thrash, punk, hardcore, just everything put it together, just making it as evil and crushing as possible, you know.

And then I think at a certain point, there started to be. rules in death metal and there were a lot of great bands that came from I'm not slagging it but the bands that come from the 80s I think there wasn't you didn't think in that way because it was still being kind of created even though there were you know there were bands out obviously like death and carcass and bolt furor all starting around that time but it still it wasn't it wasn't defined it seemed like once the ERAC stuff started coming out Roadrunner started You know, a road racer started putting stuff out.

It started to become a little bit defined, and then people started following that template. So they were following, like, a next generation template of death metal, where we were kind of from an almost a pre-template of death metal. It was more like just figuring it out. Like, we didn't even really 100% know what we were doing. I mean, especially in my previous band, Revenant, we were just like, we just took everything that was, like,

aggressive and crazy and pissed off and threw it in a band just told the world the piss off kind of thing you know yeah yeah so yeah you're right uh incantation is a part of like a pre yeah like like like like a pre rule rule book yeah right like a pre template you're right if you listen to go gotha or the immortal throne nazarian that we're doing now it's going to be hard to find other bands that put out albums that sounded like that. I mean, okay, production-wise, they weren't great, but they, it wasn't about getting the pristine production. It was about getting a vibe across that we wanted to express with our music. It wasn't about the technical ability or the, you know, it wasn't meant to be nice. It was meant to be something you listen to and you're just like, holy fuck, what is this? Like, we wanted,

it wasn't, I wouldn't say it was a shock thing, but we just wanted people like, here, this is what we feel death metal is and this is our interpretation of it. It's not what, you know, the scenes interpretation of it or anything. It's our interpretation. And that's what I like about a lot of the earlier demos and albums I listened to is like bands were doing in the 80s, their interpretation of what they thought aggressive music should be. You can go from bands like early destruction and Sodom, you know, obviously, you know, death, you know, made a, uh, a template that a lot of bands follow, even us to some extent,

you know, and some of other bands, like I said, like Bolt Thrower and Carcice, and, you know, a more underground bands like that really influenced us,

like necrophasia and, um, uh, Necrovor, uh, early morbid angel. Those were bands that were, they,

they were throwing away the template and doing their own thing. And some of those style. The template. What's that? I like, I like that. Throw away to template. Yeah.

That's a way, that's, I mean, when you're, when you're, when you're, When you're a metal head, aren't you supposed to break the rules, not follow them. Okay, you have more rebels.

You have more experience. Yes. Necervor, fuck yeah. That, when I heard that demo crushed my brain, I was just like, I couldn't believe what I was hearing it. The production wasn't good. The, but there was a essence to the passion of it that spoke to be in a way that was just like, I need to understand how this happened, you know, I need to express myself in this way where I'm expressing myself from my heart and not following the rules of, you know, music, you know,

or what you're supposed to do. Like, I didn't even know, like, what most guitar players know, you know, before they even probably have a band. I didn't know until probably, you know, 10 years into doing albums. I was like, oh, you know, you're supposed to line up the fucking kicks in the guitar, you know, the guitars on, like, double bass parts. It's like, I would just, I would do it, but I wouldn't think about it. Like, I was just like, I would just, like, I hear the kick.

So I'd be like, okay, you do this kind of, I don't know, I just play this. It sounds good over it. Just do it. Like, I didn't know all that stuff. But in a way, it was better because I didn't, I didn't feel trapped in any way because I didn't know. I could, I could do every other one if I want to, I guess. I don't. Fuck it.

It's, I mean, you know, it's, who knows who gives a fuck about the rules? Who gives a fuck? So you weren't even trying to lock in with, with the kick, which is basically what everyone does. No, I mean, I want it. I mean, I locked in, but in my own way, not the traditional way. That's the difference. It's like it's not, I had my own way of thinking about doing it. It, I just would be like, I feel this makes sense. It's not about this is the way, because I didn't know you're supposed to do. Like, I, I remember getting a little bit of crap with my former band Revenant that I played in because, you know, I wasn't good at doing the, um, down. picking, you know, like the more thrashier downpicking. I just never really did it. I was always a strummer. I just, for some reason, I just, the riffs I wrote sounded right strumming.

When I try to do downpicking, I felt it was too, um, too choppy for me. I wanted, I wanted, I wanted it to be a smooth transition, even though it's a heavy transition. I want things to morph into each other, not like, be, do, do, do, do, I wanted it to be like, this feeling's going into that feeling. is going in that field. I know it sounds artsy and all that stupid stuff, but it's just more of the way I just looked at it. It just may, I don't know why.

I only started even realizing this in the last couple years or so when I started kind of analyzing my career a little bit more and started realizing. Because once I started like touring more and working with other guitar players and watching other guitar players play, I started to realize like, wow, I'm like on a totally different page. I don't even, you know, all these things that they're all concerned about, you know, like towards the end of the 90s with bands playing in BPMs and all this stuff. I don't even know what a fucking BPM was. I didn't even think about it. Like, just like, play the freaking part, it sounds good. That's, you know, it gets the feeling across. That's, that's fine for me. Like, I didn't need to know about, you know, why it works. It's like if it works and it sounds good, you know, and it gets across what we're trying to get across in the music, that's what's important. So,

Um, yeah, I, I felt like an outsider for a long time in, um, the death metal world once it started to become more, people started following that template or whatever of music. Okay. Most musicians, of course, follow the music, you know, like they learn how to play music and just the way you do it. But I realized I'm something different. And I lack skills in certain ways, but I have maybe a little bit more imagination. or a little bit better at expressing myself or something with the guitar in my way. It's not a traditional way. And I'm fine with that because I'd rather have people feel what I feel coming out of the guitar. It's almost like you say like,

listen to Jimmy Hendricks play compared to Marty Friedman. You know, I like when I hear Jimmy Hendricks play, he'll just bend, you don't know what the hell he's doing, but somehow it sounds amazing and awesome and somehow make that note and mean something, No, it probably, in theory, doesn't, you know, shouldn't work. Those, you know, but I like the emotion of the, of music. And I also realized that with, like, bands that I liked.

I liked bands that I felt an emotional connection to, not a, I mean, of course, it's great. I mean, I love Inveh, I love listening to talented players. That's great. That satisfies one part of who I am. But when it came to extreme music, especially, it was like, I wanted to, feel I wanted to feel like it was pulling me into something. It was making something special happen to me. It was like making me feel a part of it.

Like I'm experiencing what they're trying to express to me emotionally. I know it sounds like I'm some kind of freak. And maybe I am a freak, but it's okay because it's just who I am. Like I don't know the other way. Like I really know me. So for years, I could not understand why. Maybe people didn't quite understand where I was coming from musically between working with musicians and the band sometimes or just the way music is in general. But I realize it's just who I am.

And for most of my life until almost recently, I've just been trying, almost wandering around. Like I don't get it. Like why, you know, why do I look at it this way? And everyone's telling me, you have to do these rules here or there. and I try to do them, and it usually hurts, hurts the music more than it helps the music, because it's, like, maybe in, you know, if I didn't get, you know, possessed by metal at an early age, I might be doing, like, ambient music or something. I don't know, you know, it's hard to say, because I look at it as more of moods and feelings than,

you know, at least for incantation when I'm writing, I'm thinking that. I'm not thinking, you know, oh, this is a good chug part and this is a good mashy part for a song. This is the brutal part. It's like, and it hurts, I think, our writing sometimes because it's like, yeah, I could write. I could follow the template and, okay, you do this part, you do this for this. And people are going to like it. And that's great. But I don't fucking care.

I don't do it for people like it. I do it because it's self-expression. I mean, I hate saying it because I feel so. that's here snooty but it's like I'm an artist I create art

with the stuff I write and it means a lot to me and if it means a lot to other people that's great it was from even from the beginning before I even really understood

when I was sitting with Paul Ledney and myself starting the band it was just like you know we're gonna do we want to do the way we want to do it and everybody fuck off

you know and it's like we knew if we're lucky we're going to have maybe you know say five years

lucky if you put out of demo or me maybe a seven inch and people will hate it and then we'll quit and that's fine we were totally comfortable with that you know but instead it was like things went wrong and people liked it and they were like oh fuck you know this is awesome like people actually like the lunacy that we're doing you know because it was i think i mean maybe i'm wrong and maybe you could tell me i mean as a musician you know when you're starting off you probably want to be a popular musician and you probably want to write stuff

that you think people are going to enjoy of course you want to express yourself but you probably you but other people enjoying it with you is important the way we were looking at it was like no we're selfish we're doing this all for ourselves and but when we play it

and when we do it we push it outwards towards other people and they could either grip onto it or not grip onto it but we're going to give them this is us our souls are what we believe it and either dig it or you don't dig it and it's not a big deal

if people don't like it. We don't expect them to. So every time we do well or people like it, I'm more like, thank you. I appreciate it because, you know, we're not trying to. Yeah. It might sound weird, but we're not trying to please the crowd because we know that we

have to please ourselves as a band and then if, you know, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. It's always a crapshoot. With it, you know, we're not going to follow the trends. We never did that, you know, through, even through, you know, say, the 2000s when, say, your band, Suicide Silence was more popular. That style, you know, metal and, you know, these newer forms of, you know, like symphonic metal and, you know, symphonic black metal, whatever you want to call it. You know, those are all the craze at a time. And we were just like, you know what? Screw you guys. We're going to do our album even more underground, more to ourselves. Even more because it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, pissed off about, you know, I mean, bands do what you want to do. That's great. But for us, it's like we, you know, this reinforces who we are as people.

Like, we're not willing to say, well, let's just add a little of this or a little of that. Sprinkle in to get, because this is the time. No, fuck that. It's like, it's either 100% honest or you could piss off. Piss off, dude. I'm sorry, I kind of rant it on it, but no. It's how I'm, I'm very passionate. I'm passionate about the stuff I do, you know.

I want you to speak your mind and speak your heart because I know what it's like you have your You like you want to play what you want to play, but and when you do that, you're constantly getting pushback and it's like am I thinking about this wrong? Yes, and then you'll second guess yourself, but then yeah. I've dealt with that for years where I was getting pushed into directions that I felt uncomfortable with because people are telling me that this is not the way you're supposed to do it and they're trying to push me into doing it and when I do try to capitulate to that a little bit it always feels wrong it always feels wrong because because it's not we're it's it it's like you're trying to make a painting and so and says no that line's supposed to be this way and that's the rule it's like no there's no rule to abstract art and you know the way I look at in Ken if you had to look at it like art is abstract death

metal or whatever it's what we feel it you know i mean some people do stuff you know for you know popularity or to get to want to please other people with music we're like i said we're selfish i mean we grew up with that idea of um you know say metallica where it was just like early on it's like we just do we do and fuck you guys kind of attitude or man o war where you're just like you're proud to be fucking metal and everybody could piss off you know like i grew up in the early 80s where you know band the bands were like yes we're fucking metal and we're doing this and everyone could piss off and yeah and that's that's that's that's metal to me you know like i said once you follow it out rulebook too much i think it it takes away some of the personality

and it dates your stuff more to a time period to some extent it does do you think this started with you know if you don't mind john i'd like to kind of take it back. Yeah, of course. Do you mind? Do you think it started with, with Kiss? When you were like six years old,

you found Kiss on, on TV. And you said, and you said something that kind of gave me like another, you had a very unique perspective. I know people always ask you,

how did you first get into death metal? But then you said something. I was like, oh yeah, like, when you're young, you don't even have a perspective what death metal even is. And it made me think about,

about like the first of my I I heard corn I wasn't like this is new metal it was just like I remember being you made me think about when I was a kid and I haven't thought about this ever in my life or it's what was I even thinking I didn't I didn't think about a genre but it kind of but it did open a door to so yes so I guess you could maybe kind of trace it like you first heard death when you saw kiss well let's just say when I was young for some reason and I don't know why I just any song I heard that had like a distorted guitar or like a gained guitar just I thought was cool I was just like damn that's great fuck you know I mean I'm I'm like five years old or something you know but that sound it just hit me for some reason I you know

I could maybe for other people it could be whatever you know but for me it was that and then yeah it was like I used to I would listen to like rock radio as a young kid you know listen to Zeppelin Queen yeah whatever whatever was out that time that just had that tone I mean yeah Brian I mean Brian May is one of the gods of tone I mean when I I remember hearing his um the guitar solo and we will rock you and I was just like I was like I knew nothing about guitar I just knew that sound that was coming out of there was so cool you know I mean and you know of course I start to I started to focus on it and it more when I started learning guitar and understanding

some of the techniques and stuff. But back then it was just like, it just sounded cool to me. It was something sick. It was something like, say, original to it. It's like, you know, when Brian May plays, he plays with a passion that is distinctively his. It's like you always can

always, you could always tell when you hear his guitar. Those are some of the guitar players I like. But anyway, getting back to Kiss, yeah, I mean, you know, what was it on that TV? a TV show, I forget, they were on, it was like a holiday special or something like that. I think it was Halloween thing or something.

And, of course, looking at them, it was like, wow, this is cool. You know, your six-year-old kid, these guys come out and make up and looking all cool and stuff. You're like, wow, that's pretty damn badass. Yeah, that was it. And, you know, just to, then to hear them play and, like, you know, see, that whole thing was like, it was like, it was. It was basically like feeding, you know, a tripe to a fucking shark at the time. Like I was just like, it's exactly what I wanted to fucking see, you know? Yeah.

That crushed my soul as a kid, you know? Explosions going off. I mean, you know, just look at that. I mean, think of it not understand. You don't understand nothing about guitars, drums, bass. Exactly, you're right. I didn't know what instrument made what sound. I remember having Kiss Alive

and I thought the bass guitar played the acoustic sounding parts I didn't know I just thought I made up my own little world or whatever you know and we used to get with friends and we just go in my basement

put on an album pretend to play with tennis rackets and bats and stuff or whatever as guitars and we didn't know which instrument was what or whatever you know it was just like

but we just knew that you know we thought age gene Peter and Paul were fucking awesome and you know you heard the music you know I remember just hearing that that dinan-na-na-na-n-din-in-in-in-in you know hearing that guitar going I was just like that's it that's like it's like it basically like possessed my soul and then I wanted to get a guitar and then did you uh so when you're a nine you asked for a guitar for Christmas but instead you got a acoustic right you did way too much homework um yes I got an acoustic

music guitar and I was and I was I was horrified because I'm like I didn't know nothing about guitars so I hit it and I'm like it doesn't sound right it's like bring I did the same thing I'm like what the fuck's that yeah it's like it's like you know I was like that's the sound when I was a young kid I heard on the radio and I turned the channel yeah so I was kind of bummed so basically I you know told told my mom and dad I want you know like to get electric guitar I found out electric guitar is the one that does that sound and they were just like well well, you got to learn how to play this one first. And I was like, no, I'm not interested. No, I didn't do it. I didn't do it. I was like, and if I'm not getting the sound I want, because even then, maybe I was already thinking like, you know, I want to get the sounds.

I want these sounds to mean something. And it's like playing this acoustic guitar was not, had no interest at all in it. I was just like, it just sat in my room in the corner. And my mom thought it's like, oh, it's just a fat or something like that. And then I had to wait until I got my paper route I don't know, probably 13 or something, and I bought a, you know, was it a Ibanez Roadstar 2. And it wasn't a great guitar, a little PV, you know, one speaker amp and a rat distortion pedal.

And I was just loving life, just turning up the distortion pedal and just making stupid sounds with it in my room. It was just like a total blast. Then I started taking lessons, try to learn the basics or whatever. And, you know, how long did you take lessons for? Well, I took a bonder off. I mean, I learned the super basics probably about a year of just like learning some really simple scales and just, you know, picking the notes and like, you know, it's real simple stuff. And then I took lessons probably about a year. Then I just, my friend across the street was a really talented musician.

He was a kid, but he grew up on piano. He played violin. Then he got a guitar and he was just able to like learn stuff right off the bat. So he would teach me like songs like, I don't know, Deep Purple songs or Black Sabbath songs or Judas Priest songs. So I would just really just start playing that stuff. I kind of didn't give a crap about really learning the actual way to play the guitar. I just wanted to play the songs that I wanted to mimic the songs that I liked or whatnot. And then it wasn't until, oh, crap, probably 80.

it was when I was playing in my previous band Revenant, I think it was 88 where I took guitar lessons from Ed Furman, it was the guitar player for the New Jersey band, Hades, which was one of my favorite New Jersey bands. And he started to show me some of the, you know, some lead techniques, some scale techniques and stuff like that.

But it was still very minimal. I mean, because I was always more interested in the creative part of it. Like learning my scales and stuff like, that felt like paint drying, but just doing these weird sounds like, gong king, gong, you know. Paint drying scales. Yeah. You know, like, what happened was is when I was in my previous band, Revenant, we, I started learning how to write music.

And that's what really was like, oh, this is like, I found my niche. Like, I like writing stuff. Even though it took me a while until I really understood the process, I like the creative part of creating rhythm. and moods and stuff more than I did the technical aspect of learning. And then I did go to a college, um, college in the weakest sense of the word, like minimalist college. Like like one year, a couple classes. Yeah, just, just because, I did the same thing, dude, just because I kind of felt like I should,

like the same thing. Yeah, that's Ed Furman there. That he is actually working on a book right now about his guitar, his guitar stuff. Yeah. Oh, wow. And, um, he had me. right you know get some stuff for it or whatever which is really cool he yeah he's he's an amazing guitar player um and and a nice really nice guy but anyway um yeah i took lessons in like

i took like a drafting course like a remedial english course because i suck at english and um i do too i feel yeah yeah and then um what is i was like i don't i took i took something else and now i took a music class and it was like It was supposed to be a classical classical guitar. But I got in there, and it was this old, like, black jazz dude. Like, a total, like, you know, the hat on and just had the big guitar. And he was just like, you know, and I really, I really liked it, you know, because it was just like, he was just like, you got to feel it, you know, just.

Kind of. You got to do this cat, you know, you know. Kind of feel the music, dude. Come on. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it was such a great. Smok his weed. Yeah, yeah.

It was just a good vibe, you know, because it was like, actually like he I related more to like this this uh jazzy type vibe than I did actually the classical vibe I but that was the only class they had was classical but you know but they but when it went there it was jazz more and I was like this up but what's up of jazz and death metal there's like this one more connection I've been finding yeah well I think it's a metal in general because jazz and blues has a lot to do with you know bands like Black Sabbath that kind of started it, you know? It was like an exaggerated version.

And a lot of metal, at least stuff I grew up with, I think a lot of it, you know, transcended from the jazz and blues, I think. So, and there's just a, it's like metal got tighter and tighter throughout the years, you know, by the time of 2000s went, it's like everything was just like blocks or whatever. Once like digital came in, it was just like, okay, now we're cutting this fuckers. So yeah, I was going to ask you, like, when, When did that rule book come in? So it kind of sounds like when every, when the Pro Tools went digital, that's kind of when like the rules, maybe started kind of coming in slowly.

Yeah, well, I remember I remember in, we toured with Angel Corps in 99. And I remember that they were talking about, you know, beats per minute and all this time. heightened this stuff about and like yeah all this boring stuff all this music crap I'm like what the hell we do it's like I'm here just being an asshole like I'd be there just like you know throw my guitar around smashing into my

amp and just fucking making the most you know sick sounds I could and probably looking like an infant on stage compared to these other guys that are up there like all like you know going you do you do you do you know and I'm just like we're always doing that you know but for me it was like that that was more more fun

So I started realizing, I mean, it wasn't just, it's not fair for me to point on Angel Corpse because there were other bands that were coming out like Nile and stuff like that that were really into this really tight, you know, form of death metal. And I think it had a lot to do with Pro Tools. I mean, there's nothing wrong with being tight. Don't get me wrong. It's not like, it's not like I'm like, yeah, I don't want to be tight on our records. It's like, no, I just don't follow the rules of how everyone else thinks. tight is or you know and i like that bluesy jazz thing where you could float a little bit everything doesn't have to be like every every drum beat doesn't have to have doesn't things don't have to be

line up like perfectly through everything has to be quantized and all that crap i freaking hate it because it quantized makes my wiener feel smaller well it takes away it takes away all the soul and all the the beauty of the of the guitar player or even the drummer i mean it's like sometimes the coolest drum parts It was when, you know, the drummer's like, you know, taking a little, you know, like taking a little extra time on the roll and it's a little bit, ah, it's there. But when it lands on it, you're just like, fuck, yeah. Yeah. You got to it, you know, like, I like that vibe. I mean, that's what's really awesome, relating that to what we're doing now on this tour.

It's really awesome because we're playing probably our most underground and most feelingful, expressive album, I think. and it's it's so fun to just to just say screw it and like it's a total like break all the rules kind of thing you know and just feeling the band jamming like we're a fucking unit but we're also like you know any moment it could fly off you know and like everything could be fucked or something but that's great because I like living on the edge like that musically you know and yeah like I said some people feel it some people think we're stupid or whatever and It's okay, I don't care. Yeah, fuck him, dude.

Hey, John, real quick, I got to tell you, man, I'm pretty proud of you because I heard you talk about how you're a shy dude. And now, and now you come a long way, man. I know, I know that feeling. Yeah, well. Speaking of your mind and speaking your heart takes a while to learn. Well, I was always an outcast. I was super shy as a kid. my whole time in school,

I felt like I didn't relate to the people that were there. I felt like I was in a forced prison or something like that at school. Wow. And then even like, you know, like I tried to find people to work with that. I can understand musically and band-wise. And I still felt like at all it's a weird thing,

but I always felt like it was an us and them kind of thing. Like, and it really, it's just been difficult and just for my whole life I just feel like why am I different? Why am I different than other people because

you know I feel like the way I am is right for me but it's like for some reason other people don't always understand. Not everybody but most people don't and it fuck me up for a while and then you know

at a certain point you know probably it started probably about 10 years ago a lot of it happened after i got my divorce um i did i did a lot of um therapy to try to understand myself because i thought that i was actually going insane like i remember going to therapy and like i'm fucked i'm sorry i don't know if i can curse like okay i i went i went there and i was like i'm fucked um i think i think i'm insane. I don't know it. And I need some help. And it was just the weirdest thing because I

learned to just let it all out and how good it felt to just let everything out to this therapist. And she was just intrigued because she was just like, no, you're like so normal. It's ridiculous, you know? Like these are all normal feelings and everything.

You know, it's like, and it just, it helped me to know that, okay, I might be different than most people. but my feelings and the way I'm thinking is not wrong. You know, it's just, it's just other people, you know, aren't as empathetic or something as I am or as passionate. Like I'm super passionate when I get into a project,

no matter what it is short term or long term, I get obsessed with it. It's like, because if I do it, it's worth it to do it the best way I can and to do it the honest way I can. And if I don't put 100% into it, I feel very down on myself. And I'm really hard on myself. But then just like, you know,

but it took a long time to get to that point to really understand like, okay, it's okay to be who I am. It's okay to be different than everybody else. And it's like people, not everybody has to like you for who you are or understand you. And, you know, you don't have to, I don't know how to explain it. You just, you know, I guess I've learned that I am a good person, you know, which I didn't know if I was or not.

I didn't really understand because I surrounded myself with a lot of people that were taking advantage of me because of some of the, well, first of all, because of my empathy for people, people took advantage of me. I feel, and I'm not trying to be a sob story, bullshit or whatever, but I just didn't know it. I just, me being empathetic to people was just who I was. So when people would take advantage of it, because some people I realized are just, they take from you and they just take and take and take. And you don't even realize it because you just want to give and make other people happy, you know. And but when you never get the proper, uh, reciprocation back, it, it takes the honesty and everything out of yourself. And, uh, I've realized, you know, now that it's just the way some people are. And when people are like that, it's like that, it's like, okay, whatever, that's the kind of person they are.

I have to deal with it appropriately and not just keep throwing, you know, stuff into this pit of emptiness or whatever. Yeah. And it's more important to look, okay, these people, are this way, they do their thing, that's great. If we can work together, that's wonderful, but we have to have an understanding of the way each of us are. You know, I mean, throughout our career, the reason I feel the reason why people like working with me is because I work my ass off, like, in the band.

Like, especially early on, it was like, one goal in life was just like, do this band. It wasn't to get popular. It was just like, if we're doing the band, we're doing the band. This is like it. And people like, you know, people like that at first. But then once they're in the machine and they realize that I'm like the energizer bunny where I'm like pushing everybody push.

No, no, we got to keep doing a student. You know, then people are just like, whoa, like I need a break, you know, respect my boundaries. But, you know, you're 21 years old. You're like, fuck this. Everyone should think like me if you want to be fucking, you know, successful in getting your ideas out. And that fucks a lot of people up because you're dealing. with immaturity of not understanding the dynamic between other people and you're and they're not understanding the dynamics either everyone's looking at it just from their own sides and not looking

at it from other people's sides like i couldn't understand you know why people were not wanting to be as um i don't know what the right word is hard working is i am like non-stop some people they they like They got to a point and they're happy. And they're, and, you know, for me, I was like, what the hell is that? That's like, now this is the beginning. Yeah. When you get that up, it's not the end. Yeah.

For some people, it's either the end or, okay, it's time to take a break. And is it wrong or right? No, it's not wrong or right. It's the way people look at it. But when you're a 20 year old, 21, 22 year old kid that has the fire of a motherfucker with telling the world to piss off and want to give middle fingers to everybody, less than you want someone. to tell you is to hold you back. You know, you want to push harder and you can't understand why

these other people that you care so much about that and you created something so amazing and beautiful with, uh, music wise, you know, don't have that same exact fire that you have, but it was immaturity on my part, you know, not understanding myself. Like I said, it took, it took until I was what, 50, no, 45 years old. 45, so unfortunately I understand. Unfortunately, you had to go through a divorce to make you kind of stop and, like, step back, reassess. Yeah. And it wasn't like 100% the divorce situation.

What did you do? No, it wasn't. I don't want to get into it. Yeah. But the divorce situation, obviously, you know, it's always a big change in life. But it wasn't just that I had issues that I didn't understand. and myself. And that situation made me reevaluate myself.

So I was able to understand and get myself to live life properly where I understand where I'm going, understand what kind of people I need to be around, what kind of people, you know, what I'm looking for in, say, either a partner or whatever. And I was able to, I was able to find myself, we'll say, I lost myself. but it wasn't it wasn't just the previous marriage that lost myself i lost myself way before it i if i if i really analyze it probably my first marriage i was trying to find myself and i was i was trying to find myself and i ended up just you know going down the path and it's not it's not anyone's fault except for myself because that boy well it's the truth because you know

I didn't have the, I didn't think about, like, I didn't step aside and say, I need to get help and figure out what's going on in my brain and understanding. I was too immature. I didn't understand. I just knew that I love fucking playing music. I didn't care if I was living in my car or whatever. I just, I love doing it. You know, it's fine. And I'll take whatever life puts at me if I could play music.

but at the same time, I neglected a lot of my own personal mental health, even though I'm not, I'm not, like, I don't have real mental health issues, but I just have, I just couldn't find myself. Like, mentally I couldn't find myself. Everything was in, music was like this. My whole personality was music. It wasn't, you know, like I had nothing else in life that I was really 100% happy. with. Yeah, it's just pretty, yeah, I mean, you're still like tunnel vision and you don't really assess it until like you kind of press pause like for me is like 30s, you know, you kind of have to reassess, wait, like, who am I? And then you actually go, then it's like one one, one big circle. Yes. So like, whom I know is, I'm just, I don't know who I am and then you go right back who, wait, I was always this guy. Yeah. Well, this is, this is the thing that's really funny because I said before that other people wanted to take a break and reassess. I probably should have

did that, but I didn't because my drive was stronger than I got, I got so much out of writing and creating music and it was fulfilling a void inside of my body that I felt like I had to keep doing that and that was, and it was, it was therapeutic for me, but, you know, I could, I could have benefited from just taking a little break and saying like, okay, let me get my head on straight here. I love doing music. I know, you know, I know that I have to work really hard at doing it, but at the same time, you know, let's chill out a little bit and like, you know, get, like I said, get my head on straight or whatever, you know? Yeah. Because it wasn't. I mean, you could ask, you ask anybody, they might, I mean, they'll probably tell you I'm an asshole or something. That's fine.

Because I probably was an asshole, but that's okay. But if they, but they'll tell you that I was determined. I was like focused, you know? Yeah. Well, the thing is, is like, I'm just me. I don't make all the right decisions. No one does. I learned throughout life and I, you know, I honestly throughout my whole life, done what I thought was the right thing to do. It wasn't always the right thing to do, but it was, you know, with the proper intentions or whatever, you know, for myself. And I love, I love bringing up other people with me. Like when I find people that are, have that same fire as myself, I love bringing them up.

I love, I love collaborating with other people musically. It's like it's such a, it's the most awesome feeling to sit down and just jam with, you know, someone I respect or a bandmate or something. And we come up with some cool riffs or something like that. And it's like, and it's, it's all of our stuff. It's not just, it's not just me expressing my, it's like part of me, part of them. And it's an awesome thing. Yeah. What, uh, what record was it, uh, that you think you should have stepped back and reassess?

Well It's hard to say because there were numerous times A few times nice I mean After we did our first album I went to Ogatha Basically The band fell apart

And it was both basically As myself and Craig That were still in the band But Craig was Kind of not happy Because You know He liked jamming with the other guys

And they Well I I sadly fired Ronnie and then Jim left the band soon after that and stuff. So the chemistry that we had was not there anymore. And, you know, I can't say it would have been right to get those guys back or not because I don't know. You could say whatever. But the fact is, is that I should have took the time because we did the album. We had Jim fill in for the album session.

He came back. He didn't do it for my. He did it for Craig because he hated me at that point, which was understandable. But he could come in. That's Ronnie. And unfortunately, he passed away a couple years back. And the thing that it hurts me because, you know, I have such great memories of working with him early on in the band.

And after I kicked him out, it was obviously wasn't the same. And he's held it against me for years. And it's hurt me. me because I you know I really I really he meant so much to me at the time and I wish that we were able to like just hang out and just be like okay you know talk about it and just explain you know explain where my head was at you know and that I you know you know wish it didn't come to it or whatever now we could just be friends because you know like I said we had a great friendship and And yeah, I never got to do it.

And he passed away. And it's heartbreaking to not be able to do that. It's, it's important regardless of what happens at the heat of the moment in the band, you know, 10, 20, 30 years these days later, you want to, you want to be able to say, like, thank you for the stuff that you did, you know. And you want to be able to say, I'm sorry that, you know, this happened or whatever. I, you know, I wish that I was more mature and dealt with it better, you know, but, you know, I dealt with the way I thought it was the right thing to do at the time, not because I wanted to, but because I thought it was the survival of the band. And, you know, yeah, you have regrets as, you know, kind of when you're a band leader,

you sometimes have regrets, especially when you're very passionate about stuff. So it does break my heart. You always do. When you're the, when you're, when you're either founder or co-founder, you kind of take on these responsibilities and it's really nowhere to go to get like any kind of formal advice, you know, so you make wrong choices.

And sometimes it sounds like for you like you didn't get a chance to make an amends. I'm sorry. That sucks, man. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I get it. I mean, you know, some people are just stubborn and I'm stubborn myself. So, uh, I mean, I came to, I came to my senses, you know, soon after that, you know,

but, you know, he held it. He held a grudge. And, you know, he has a right to. I mean, people, you can't, you can't change the way people are there. People are the way they are. You could just, all you could do is open your door and say, you know, hopefully, you know, if you want to talk, you could talk. Yeah. You know, we could have fun.

We don't have to jam. We don't have to do anything. Just, you know, just hang out, maybe have a beer or just, you know, whatever, coffee or whatever, or just a meal, just something. Just talk about the good times. And, you know, remember those because those are ways. What's important in life is those relationships. And to create, you know, he played on, you know, where to go off the album and on the demos and stuff.

So he was there super early on in our career. And, you know, those are magical times in any band, you know. And those memories you cherish a lot. You do, man. Imagine, imagine your life, where would you be if you never saw Judas Priest when you were 13? with chicken pox yeah with chicken pox yeah yeah do i never so you went to a show and you had chicken pox i never i never had it

uh is chicken pox that if so i guess the rumor is if you don't have it when you're young you get an older it could potentially kill you jay we might need to look up chicken pox yeah can't can you die can you die from having You're lucky. So you already got I never had him. Oh and and you made me think oh shit I never got you better be careful Are you still don't go to be careful go no Judas priest show So what yeah Isn't that show like legendary because what they're like ripping out the seats or some shit like yeah was Yeah I mean I was I was really getting at the priest at that time

And um yeah I've always been out of my mind when it comes the bands I like the new york Madison Square Garden Oh, awesome. Yes. It was a magical experience. I went with my mom. She wouldn't let me go alone. I was fucking young, you know. Yeah. Yeah. It was awesome. Is that it right there? Yeah. And just think, I mean, just think about your mom going to a show where they're ripping up all the seats at. It's your first metal show. And it had to have made an impact on her like, I don't know about this metal stuff. But it was amazing. I mean, just think of, 13 year old kid I was watching them play they started off with love bites and it had to dong dong dong ding on the base and then it has like you know it hits in and he goes when you feel safe and then like yeah one of them would show up and then the next part would come the other one would show up and it would just like magically show up on stage and for me as a 13 year old kid I was just

like I can't believe that I'm in the same room with these people it's um yeah you're you're in Same room, dude. Yeah. It's just, it's just, it just, it changed my life. It was just like, you know, it reinforced my love for metal and just made me want to go into high gear. I mean, I never, you know, I didn't have false expectations that I'd ever be, you know, Judas Priest or whatever as big as that.

But it was just, I just knew that I love that whole experience of just feeling the music and being in the room. And, I mean, I started going to shows like crazy. after like every every concert i was able to get to you know seen kiss dio two us's sister uh black sabbath um even rat i seen with bon jovi just any concert i can go to that you know at that time i went to and then i started going to like more tiny bopper metal club seeing local bands and stuff but it was all that judas priest thing set lit a fire under my ass was just like this i found my people So okay

So I think I had the timeline right So all right So you You were I'm not trying to be disrespectful But so the term is paper boy You were like I was paper boy

Yeah well it's not disrespectful That's what I was Okay so How do you I was wondering How early do you got to get up for that? Well I I It wasn't

Like 4 am or something great Yeah I didn't do the The daily paper thing Like Most people all the time. I filled in for a couple people

doing the daily paper. That's, yeah, I have to wake up like 4 a.m. and they drop the papers off and you got to, you got to like sort through them yourself. It was a lot of work. But then I was doing more of the shopper,

which was a, like, I think it was twice a week. And they give you, they give you a pallet at your house full of fucking papers and plastic bags. And you throw them into,

you know, a little plastic bag papers. Nice. And I'd have to throw them all in the bags and then carry this huge fucking, you know, whatever, just carry your basket thing with me and go around

and throw it. Like I'd ride my bicycle some time to throw it, but you ride your bicycle and you throw it on the steps and if you go too fast on your bicycle, you'll throw it in their bushes and have to stop and go get it out of the bushes. It wasn't fun, but it was away from me to make some money and that's how I was able to pay for my guitar. That's how you got. So you, all right, so you're a paper boy. You just bought your

guitar and a combo. You just saw Judas Priest, are you into BMX at this point and you're making your own ramps in the, uh, in your park and like shoveling, uh, yeah, I was in like, like, like, I was in the BMX. I was probably into BMX more around anywhere from nine until about 13. I think Judas Priest might have been close to the time when I got out of, yeah, you're, your full one 13. But, um, I think. Early teenagers. Yeah, I, it's hard to remember for sure, but I, I, I, I, First we went, yeah, we built me and a bunch of my friends. We built a racetrack in the local park in like a corner area where we had like

tabletop jumps, you know, the little berm things and the, you know, the whole nine yards. We did a really good job. It's funny because sometimes even the cops would drive up there and they would put their radar on and try to clock us on there and stuff. That's cool. Like they were being cool and stuff like that with it. Sometimes they say like, okay, you guys got to chill out. whatever but other times they'd be like you know they'd be kind of like supporting us doing it

i guess it was probably staying out of trouble but then i then i then i joined a local uh bmx team it was a bicycle shop and we would go to um this racetrack in new jersey called braddick and um braddick yeah it was it was pretty badass i mean i i i wasn't that i wasn't good enough these kids that were there they were way better than i was but i still had a fun time fun time you know doing it semi-professionally, you know? Yeah. When didn't you get hired at Record Town? I got that from my guitar teacher.

He was working there and he got that. I must have been 16. 15, 16. I forget how old you have to be to actually work. 16? Yeah, my first job was working. in Toys R Us. Oh, yeah.

And then I went from Toys R Us to, I think, Toys R Us, I went to Record Town, I think, from, no, I'm sorry. My first one was Nathan's Famous Franks, and that got old really quick. What's that? And Nathan's famous Franks. Nathan's is a big Frankfurter company. Yeah, that's it. It's in Coney Island, but they had one in our local mall.

Yeah. And it was a grease pit, you know? Oh, yeah. I got kind of sick of. I mean, I have. I haven't ate Nathan's for years after that But yeah

I probably traumatized Yeah I went there Then I went to Toys R Us And then I went to Recertown And Rector Town

And Rekertown was the best Uh Option was in the Bergen Mall In New Jersey And And um You know They had a little

Import section So basically I rated All the import section So their import selection Kind of sucked Because Sure Everything was good

I would pick up I'd get Be able to find like rare motorhead albums at the time you couldn't find the states or like i was into a lot of punk to like dead kennedies they would have like their alternative tentacle record stuff there and um so you so you get access to all the good records so by the time someone else went that that's it was it this is it that might be it looks just like the one that i was at it could be the same one record talent i i don't okay so this is like so this is like an east coast thing right yeah it was a it was a popular

I mean, at that time, I couldn't tell you because I never traveled further than probably, yeah, I pretty much stayed in New Jersey, New York. So I only knew they're around there. But that's where actually I met Jim Plotkin, Henry Veggie, and my friend Hux. And they were these super underground dudes that were, yeah, they went in. It had to have been, yeah, it had to have been 86 or something. and they came in one of them had celtic frost painting on the back of her jacket one of them had voivod painting on back of her jacket can't remember what hucks had but i i was i was seen i was like oh fuck those guys are fucking cool and i'm sitting there in my record town outfit with a button-up shirt with a little string tie at the time leather string t i really really like

lame as fuck looking and i i remember you know going up there talking to them and stuff trying to show them you know where you know some of the better stuff was or whatever And I ended up just talking to him becoming friends and them because they didn't have patches on their jacket. They would paint on. They'd have their leather jackets on and then denim jackets over it. And they would paint what a paint pen, these logos. And they had these logos of bands I never heard of before. I remember they had like Papp Smear and they had probably master and I can't remember.

But it's this stuff that at that time, I was like, I don't even know these bands. And so I was asking him, who? Who's this? Who's that? You know? And they realized that I had interest in it. I was already into underground stuff. I was listening to say destruction and maybe creator or something like that. But nothing like really like the tape trading stuff that they had painted under jackets.

And that was basically a turning point. I had a car. They didn't have a car. So it was kind of like my car was the inn, you know, like they'd be at the mall instead of calling their mom to pick them up. I'd be like, oh, drive you home, you know? And then they would go, my carnage, that's it. That was a great demo. That, yeah.

Well, fuck. Pat Smir, okay. Yeah, they're from Las Vegas. They were a great, a great, they were like, 86 demo. Slayer, they were like Slayer and Dark Angel kind of vibe. They had a great song called Die Killing. Pat Smear, nice, dude.

Those shirts are, that's, total 80s. Those T-shirts are 80s is the only way I could describe. Yes, yes. You're going to have to watch it. But, yeah, what's it? Yeah, so anyway, you know, Jim Plotkin was playing in a band called regurgitation at the time, and he popped in his demo, and it was like the heaviest thing I ever heard in my life.

And I was like, this is so freaking cool. Yeah, hell yeah. But what was it? Yeah, those guys, they, we just started like working out these things where I would like you know meet up with them and we go on these record store runs and stuff like that on the weekends or whenever it mostly the weekends I think because they were still in school I was still in school too so yeah it had to be the weekends we would just make runs and go to every record store and look for all the underground things you know all the underground albums that we could find wherever and and then they also would get me all these demos you know they would they introduced me to fans and Zines and stuff like that and once once I got fanzines I started writing to every freaking band I mean every band from I don't know we'll say I can't think I say sooths say good you know whatever it was I just want like Because I was a music nerd I wanted to know everything about this underground all these underground bands and

Before you know it I was I was like full force and even Henry who I ended up playing in Revent with later was just like this guy's out of his mind like you know he won't stop um won't stop collecting metal knowledge you know but it was just it was for me it was a passion thing like i you know no one told me about to do it i just wanted to do it yeah i wanted to be the guy that knew everything about every band possible that i liked yeah you always speak a pretty speak on this the band uh reverent right reverent what's your biggest because you always talk about how much you learn that what was like uh maybe maybe it was like the one thing that you like Oh, this is my like golden nugget right here.

Well, I learned. I just, I like the fact because before that I was playing and mostly cover bands and sadly trying to write material. And Henry Vegian, yeah, that's me. Yeah, right there, the Vermac shirt on. Sick. With the suspenders and stuff. A revident dude, sick. Yeah.

It was a fun time. Yeah. They were the first band that, like, showed me the tools to come up with songs. Like, my earliest song ideas were with them, and it really, I just love the fact of being able to write music and be in a band where I was encouraged to write music. And Henry would work with me to make the stuff better. You know, like, we all worked as a team. Like, I might come up with a couple ideas. They would come in and try to make it better.

It was the first time I had that collaboration of writing music, and it was. a beautiful thing to be a part of. It's like I felt when I was in Revenue, I was like, I'm finally in like an original band. Even though we still played some covers, it was an original band and it was just, you know, we had, we had real goals. Our goals were put out a demo, you know, play as many shows as possible, put out another demo, you know, and it was just, you know, and it was a tough time in the music scene in our area because The stuff we were doing was more, I don't know, it's a mixture between speed metal, hardcore thrash, and like early death metal kind of mixed together. It was almost like a smorgasbord of styles that we were doing, which we were kind of trying to find ourselves.

And we were mostly playing shows like punk rock shows and hardcore shows. And most of our fans were like, you know, guys like punk rock dudes would, like huge mohawks and stuff like that. Like most of the metal people at that time, you know, they were more into the more commercial stuff, not saying there's anything wrong with that stuff, but we were doing something more extreme.

They were more into the contemporaries, I don't know, I mean, like a testament or Metallica, which we like those bands too, but those people didn't like us, you know. The people liked us were the people that were more into agnostic front or they were into a chromags or they're,

oh wow, so like that. So, like, the hardcore scene actually was more welcoming. Yeah, because they liked the, we were pretty fast. We were very influenced by bands like Vermaumach and Cryptic Slaughter, too. And they were all like this, it was a weird thing because it was like, it was an unformed style because it was basically thrash, death metal, and hardcore punk mixed altogether. but I don't really know

like I didn't know what Vermach was even considered or triptych slaughter was really considered because to me it was kind of like it was the fastest stuff I heard at that time but it also had the kind of slammy parts that you'd have in hardcore or something but yeah so we were kind of

in that era and then there was just a certain point where basically when I we we play this show in 88 us immolation just formed and we played a show with Inolation, Revenant, and Morbent Angel in New York. And the first time I came to New York City.

And I played three shows. We played two of them. And after seeing Morbid Angel play, it changed my life. It was the first show we played was at Streets and New Rochelle, New York. And it was just, yeah. Yeah, that's the flyer for Sundance one. Yeah. The Sundance.

Yeah. That place. I've seen so many great shows, the Sundance. But, you know, to see morbid angel at that time with that much fire was, was absolutely life-changing. My special, man. Yeah, because there was nothing, nothing like that. And it was really cool for me because I was also really a big Necervor fan.

And the main guy, John D. Plachette from Neckervoir, was doing sound for them and selling merch for them on that tour. It was only a three-date or four-date tour. But for me, to be around these people that were so, um, inspirational and and I learned about this focus and this it was almost the thing that put together my way of looking at music where it was more about the vibe of it even though I mean Trey has way better technique than I do in every single way possible but the the way he looked at it the riffs using his imagination for it was really sparked my interest a lot when talking to

and I did use that, you know, when I lit my later time in Revenant right before I started in Cam, but I realized at a certain point that the paths for Revenant were getting more tense. Like, I wanted to go in this direction and they wanted to go in another direction. And I knew for myself and for them, it was best for me to leave, even though it was at that time, it was the hardest decision of my life. I mean, just think of a band that you put every ounce of your soul and everything into. And then you're just like, this just isn't working. And I left.

And it was really difficult. But, you know, once I started jamming with incantation, even though there was no, like, they were like up here now. And I was like, down here again, you know, say with popularity. Everyone thought I was on crack for leaving them. But I'm like, I don't care. I want to write the music. I want to write, you know. but I did have to deal with the fact like, okay, now we're starting from square one,

but it's okay because now the whole thing is in my vision. Like I'm, I might sound like an egomaniac, but I'm controlling the narrative of what we're doing now from this point on with Paul Lenny to be fair. But and I knew that if I'm going to get other people to be in this band, they have to agree with what I want to do. Not that I want to control it, but they can't be like, they can't be wanting to do this or that. No, they have to be wanting to do what I'm doing. And if they don't want to do that, that's, that's cool. They could do what they want to do outside of that. But I wanted, you know, I knew that this was like my, my personal expression, you know.

And so it was really rewarding. And the fact that it took off, like I said, was totally by accident. Like, I never thought in a million years I'd be here, what, 30-something years later. 30-year-old. It's absolutely ridiculous. It's just no. need for me to still be here 30 years doing the stuff that we're doing, especially back that day. I would not have even imagined it. I know I work my ass off, but I mean, it's

ridiculous. The brutality and the hate and the aggression in our music, I thought it was going to be a, just like people would like it. Okay, it's a fad and it's done. And yeah, okay, there are fads in the music scene. And the fact is, I am. stubborn and I keep doing it but I've done it throughout the years it's easy to keep doing something when you love doing it you know like I never thought about really putting it down the only time I put it down for a little while was between our primordial domination now in 2008 and vanquished and vengeance but it was only for a couple years and only because I didn't feel inspired to write because I was like well I'm not going to do the band if I don't feel inspired to write because

everything has to be honest you know and it's like it's not like I wanted to end the band but I'm like, if it is the end, okay, it's the end. What am I going to do? You know, it's like if the ideas run out, the ideas run out. And it's like, you know, it's a bummer, but, you know, it's a, we started it with an attention and the intention of being honest to ourselves and only doing it because, you know, we believe in it. And, you know, if, you know, ideas run out and runs out. I mean, what happened was is our drummer Kyle quit the band for a couple years and we tried doing some reunion.

type shows, some of the older members and stuff. And it was fun at first, and then all the old problems came back that were there before. And it's sad. I wish it didn't, but it did. And then a few years later, Kyle decided to come back. He got drawn back into the band. And all of a sudden, jamming with him, it was like the magic was there. Like, it was just like, we were at practice.

We were practicing for a show in Columbia. We just had like this one-off. We're like, oh, let's just do this one-off show. I call Kyle up, said, let's, you know, know if you don't mind playing drums you don't have anybody and next thing you know we're writing new material at practice you know but and it just came like out of nowhere like I didn't have any ideas ahead of time I was just like huh oh let's try this I got this little riff here just that's what's so weird you don't even you don't have to like someone that have music chemistry

with them I'm always wondering like what what is that well yeah well there's you don't got to get along but you you're you're in the room and like something happens like what the fuck that's what happens that's what happens And that's what's really strange is because there's people that I don't get along with at all. And we make amazing music together. It's just, it's so, it's so weird. And speaking of an accident, John, how you became like, you never like saw yourself become like a singer. No way.

So that was, so that was an accident. So what was it? Like your, like your previous singer got stabbed at a club, right? Yeah. Okay. And then that led him, he made a decision to a step down, which I guess if someone's trying to kill you, maybe you might reassess, hey, what am I doing? You know? Yeah. Well, yeah, what, how's that for you? I will, I was, as a guitar player, I was very inspired by Mike Torreo from Possessed. And I just wanted to be that songwriter guy in the band. I didn't care about, because I don't care about. the fame or the popularity part of it. I mean, that comes with it, but it's not the main reason why I do it.

So I was happy just being a guitar play. And plus, my voice is not generally, I mean, it's lower now than I'm older and been doing vocals. When I was younger, I was squeaking a lot. You know, I was really high vocals. So, I mean, high tones and talking. So I never even thought that, you know.

It's pretty funny because actually the first time we did vocals, Seth Putnam from Anil Cunt came to the show. rest in peace yeah rest in peace and he he was joking around be like are you gonna be sound like hyracks today you know

or something with incantation you know and he knows I love he knows I love hierarchs so I was like you know I wish I could be that good but no if any he's seen it

and he was just like fuck like he was expecting to like kind of totally make fun of me you know and tease me because we have that kind of relationship but just joke around a lot

and he was like wow that sounded really good, you know. So what? You were going down in the basement and just fucking practicing, huh? Yeah, I just, I just, well, this was it. We, it was a situation, you know, and unfortunately, Mike Sayas got stabbed at the show, breaking up a fight.

Are you serious? He was breaking up a fight? Yeah, we just finished playing the show. It was at the, um, it was a pyramid club, but it was a, not the pyramid club in Manhattan. It was a pyramid club in Queens. We just played the show. We were on tour. It was immolation, incantation, and goat horror.

and we were finished our set I can't remember I think yeah we we just finished our set and I just went to pack up my stuff and I guess like one of Mike Sayas his friends at the show and some guy was like pulling a knife out on him because he said like you were looking at my girlfriend

kind of thing and then he had like Mike seen that happen and he goes and like pushes them apart and tries to get him like you know tried to get his friend away or whatever and tries to stop to do with the knife so the knife he slashes my Mike's friend in the face oh and then the face dude yes and then he stabbed mike accidentally pulling back on his fucking uh bicep here and it was just fucked and then i i i only heard about i didn't see it actually happen i was in the backstage area and then i heard about it And we came out, and Kyle was changing out of his stage pants.

He had just his fucking underwear on. He runs out from the back stage and chases the dude with the knife all the way down the block in fucking Queens. And he finally fucking tackles him on the ground. And the cops come and they go to arrest Kyle. He goes, who's this fucking guy is in the wintertime? He's in his underwear running down the street attacking the guy. But it ended up finding out that, yeah, dude. dude ended up getting

you know, arrested for and stuff. But as far as I remember the last time I talked to Mikey about it, he ditched, he was like, I think he was from El Salvador or something and he took a flight to El Salvador and never came back or something, you know, after it

happened. So I don't, as far as I'm aware of, I could be wrong because I didn't do, I didn't, I, you know, this happened, what, 25 years ago now, but from what I remember, yeah, he, I know he went to El Salvador. I don't know if he went to El Salvador after he got some jail time.

And he might have got, he might have went to jail for it, came out, did something again and went to El Salvador. I can't remember exactly, but you could look it up. It's like on, on the, you know, on Google, Google or whatever. But there, that, that shirt, it was like the second show of that tour. The second show. So we had, like, like, oh, the same day. We had all our shirts stolen that weren't in the club from the back of our trailer to a whole tour's worth of shirts stolen. And yeah, so it was a really bad day.

And it was a second day to a tour. And we were, besides getting stabbed, we were stuck with like thousands of dollars in bills to our shirt company. And no tour to help pay it back. And we were broke as fuck. That sucks, dude. Yeah. Yeah. but thank you for sharing that story well we have yeah you know when you tour this much it was

always something going on something crazy you know well you're put into position like well shit i got i got i got to learn how to sing dude oh yes that's what we're getting at i got i got i got learn how to sing and then let me practice in the basement real quick well we had we had after that all thing happened we did the blasphemy album and that we had mike say us come into the studio and do vocals on it because there was no way I was going to be ready to do vocals. But then I talked with Kyle because it was basically just myself and Kyle at that time in the band. We just got Joey Lombard in the band who also rest in peace, which sucks. But we had the conversation like, okay, what are we going to do?

And Kyle was like, you got to do vocals. Or no, he said, one of us has to do vocals and I'm not. And I'm like, are you sure because I don't think I can? he's like no i can't do it so either you do it or we're fucked and i was just like okay i'll try you know but and it's yeah i i practiced in in my basement for about a year it's been and then we we did a couple of uh shows we booked three shows of mexico because we want to do kind of low profile shows because i didn't know if i was going to be good and um fucking um we videotaped him and I listened back and I was like

it's not perfect but it's there it kind of reminded me of old Max Cavalera from like the morbid visions days so I was like that's pretty fucking cool maybe I was thinking maybe I'm not going to be

as low as say the previous vocalist but I can still you know I mean who's going to complain about sounding like Max Cavaleri is one of the best death metal vocalist ever so Well, I never heard someone say that. That's cool.

Oh, Max Cavalera. Holy fuck. Yes. There's no doubt about it. He's a goat for sure. Yeah, he's, he's the, yeah, he's, I mean, he was a huge influence on me musically. And I realized, once I started doing vocals, it was coming out as an influence on me

vocal-wise. Wow. And then just from that point on, it took, honestly, until I was 100% happy, it took probably five, six years of doing it. to really, really be happy. Because even in the studio, when we did the albums afterwards, we did Decimate Christendone

and Primordial Domination. I needed the engineer, Bill Corecki, who also passed away, which sucks. And then Kyle would coach me in the studio because I was not able to judge my vocals. Because everything I did vocally on tape,

I hated. So I was just like, you guys have to tell me what's good because I can't judge myself. Hearing a voice sucks. Yeah. It took me a long time. But then once we did the Vanquished Vengeance album,

I realized like, I listened back and I was like, I like that. It sounds good. And then I was, you know, eventually I was able to understand it and do something that I felt I was proud. I'm not that I wasn't proud of that stuff, but I wasn't able to judge,

like, if it wasn't for Bill Karecki and Kyle, I don't know how those vocals would have came out because I could have had good takes and not like, I didn't like him because they were me. Because I, I, I didn't feel like I was the vocalist of incantation. I felt like I was doing it as a necessity. But at, by the time Bankrupturing Vengeance came out, I was just, I had that confidence

where I'm just like, no, I'm the vocalist of incantation. I can make the sounds I need to make. And, you know, I almost felt like, um, uh, Kronos from Venom coming out being like, hell, fucking, yeah, motherfuckers. I'm ready for the task, you know? But it was nice to get to that point after. a long time. And now it's good because every time I go on stage, I'm just, yeah,

there's Bill. That's him bitching us in the studio and how we suck as a band. And if you want to do a good album, we need to, you know, step up our game. You guys suck. Yes. You know, working with Bill Krecki was such good boot camp because he would just tell us, he'd be like,

dude, just play the song like you heard it once on the radio five years ago, at least play it that good. Like, because you know, it's like he was he was kind of trying to push for us to get a little tighter

with our playing and stuff like that and he would really push for us to get the best out of us and he would just beat you into the ground until you fucking gave him that that take that needed to happen you know or you know

it was just funny he actually engineered the Mortal Throne Nazarene album that we did but he did he hated we recorded it one studio and they brought to him to mix on a minimal budget because there was some technical, not technical, but

business bullshit that went on. It was funny because when he got the tapes in the studio, he was just like, what the fuck is this? He was like, did these people even know how to fucking record music, you know? And he was just, he would turn up faders and he was like, no, no.

And he had the tapes and he took him and he brought him outside and said, when we came the next day to the studio, he was just like, take these, I can't, I can't work with the deaf, you know? And our friend, Brian Secula, said, dude, you got to do this. You know, do it for me. Just help these guys out. Like, get them the best sounding album you can out of this. And he's like, okay, but you can't put my name on it. So if you look, if you look at the credits for Moral Thornton Nazaree, instead of saying Bill Karecki, it says Mr. Bill, because he wouldn't

want to have his name on there because he said it was embarrassed of the, you know, the album. I don't know if it says Mr. Bill on the disogs or whatever, but, yeah, Mr. Bill, yes, engineered by Mr. Bill. Engineered by Mr. Bill. Confirmed on the artwork. Yeah. Mixed at Metal Mark Studios, Cleveland, 94. Yeah, it wasn't the name of the studio. The name of the studio was Mars Recording Compound. Okay.

But we had to come up with fictitious names. So he didn't want his name on that album. He was like nothing. No, no. He's like, I'm doing this as a favor. Your favor to me is don't tell anyone I did it. He's dead now, unfortunately, so I could say it. But at the time, he thought if he did that album, it might hurt him on getting other projects.

Wow. Because he was doing a lot of stuff for the Cleveland bands like the victory records, like integrity, Earth Crisis, Hatrix, Ringworm, stuff like that. And he was getting, it was also getting, what was it? he was working with some bigger names like trouble and stuff like that in the studio because he had a nice eve board and stuff like that

but he didn't want us to ruin his reputation you know interesting dude but we're just happy to get it done I mean and I understand I mean hey I want I want you know

don't want anybody to you know ruin their career because they're recording our album yeah you don't want that it's like we don't but now it's funny because later on what was it?

Father B. Fowld and a couple other bands that kind of sound like that era of incantation. They they booked time with Bill Kurecki so they can get that sound again, the sound like the sound that Bill Kurecki hated, but like 15 years later, you know,

and he must have been so pissed because he's like, you want me to put on an album that sounds like shit, you know, you give me these tracks, now I've got to make him sound like crap, but to make you happy. Oh, yeah. It was great. Hey, John, we are, so we're actually approaching an hour and a half. So is there anything, any closing thoughts about your band that you might want out there?

Yeah, well, the most important thing, well, there's a bunch of important things, but I'm just super fortunate to have such an amazing musical journey and the work with so many great people. And the older I get, the more and more I appreciate it, especially with the passing of numerous members and other people that are involved in the scene. And I just feel very grateful to have learned so many things, so many people create great music, have great friendships. You know, it doesn't matter if, you know, we get along with them now or don't get along.

I don't give a crap about that. I, those experiences that I share with all these people were just phenomenal. And what is super amazing is I work with now in the band. I have most amazing people by my side right now. And I could not be more thankful for it. I mean, our base player, Chuck Sherwood, Kyle Severin, Charlie and Luke and, you. know, Sam, like on this tour and just a bunch of other people that we have, but Brian Rush helping us out, I'm based sometimes on tour. It's like, I'm surrounded by such amazing, not just amazing

musicians, but amazing people. And that's like, one of my goals was to have amazing people that, you know, by my side performing every night, something I'd be proud of, like, when we play every night, I get out on stage and play with these people by my side. I'm so grateful and I never take it for granted. I do sometimes think that I don't let these people know

how much I appreciate them. I sometimes think I don't and I really, really do. And I, you know, on this tour especially, man, it's been sounding so good.

And, And Charlie with his fucking drums, it just sounds every night, it feels like thunder shooting through my brain. And it just makes the guitars that Luke and I are playing just grab people's souls. Like you almost feel like you're just connecting with people on this level that's just like, oh, and it's fucking great. And I'm just so grateful to be in the position that I am now with working with amazing people. I have no interest in stopping or anything. And I just hope that, you know, everybody else in the band feels the same way. And even, like I said, the old people, even the people who might have been assholes to or whatnot,

I think, you know, I hope that we could all just, you know, have a beer together and just, you know, appreciate the awesome things that we did. And I know 100% I want to make it super clear that I am far from perfect. I fucked up a lot and a lot of stuff. Always trying to do the right thing, but not always doing it. And, you know, people don't like me for it and hate me for it. It's okay. I understand.

But just know that I don't put myself above any other people. and I know I would absolutely not be here without a ridiculous amount of people. And there's one person that I think is really important to bring up to. Fortunately, I was able to jam for a little while with Richard Christie in the band. We did the Efernal Storm album. And I learned so much from jamming with him. He was playing with Death on Sounds of Perseverance. He was playing with demons and Wizards.

and Blind Guardian for a while, and I think Ice Earth. And he's been a friend before that, but I learned so much from jamming with him because his talent was so far beyond anything I was, you know, used to playing with, I guess. Not saying that other people were bad. They were great. But this guy, he had talent, but he had this humbleness that I learned a lot from being around where he never showed,

any rockster ego stuff, he was staying at my house to practice and he would ask for permission to go to a freaking bathroom in her house, you know, like, it's like, no, you don't have to go, you know, yeah, you can have a glass of water. You don't have to ask for it, you know?

Yeah. But it was just that kind, that kind courteous and I learned a lot, and there were also a few other things that happened in my life, like getting the opportunity to meet Ronnie James Dio around the time of Master of the Moon

and his kindness to me. And to meet musicians that either I played with or that I frankly idolized to be nice to me and to treat me with respect when they don't have to or whatnot really was part of the whole reason why you know I was able to as part of my learning process we'll say on trying to be the best person that I could be or whatever and but I just want to make sure that everybody knows all our supporters everybody knows that

trust me I'm grateful that you guys give a shit about us because I know you guys don't have to and you know seeing those faces out in the crowd

every night really means a lot to me it it it um you know it might sound cheesy

but it warrants my heart you know to look out and to see that our music means something to people I try my best to always look at every person I can

I'm head banging a lot but I like to still take some and look at these people in the eye and let them know like thank you and like look to them and say thank you because it's important to me because I know they don't have to be there they don't have to but they want to be there yes so thank you over over 35 years well john oh where can people find you guys uh I guess the normal BS stuff yeah Instagram the incantation official Instagram we have also we have incantation.com incantation official

Facebook and I won't ban camp I don't know relapse has an incantation um band camp thing for us I don't I don't know too much about band camp and you know what let's do me a favor and if you're out there and you list the Spotify like listen to our stuff on Spotify because our Spotify numbers suck and they I really want to try to get them up a little better you know because we do really well on tour we people really like us but i don't think our fans listen to us on spotify okay and unfortunately like these um industry people look at spotify numbers and that's where they get a lot of their um you know judging us for getting on a tour just whatever bullshit you know like sure it's like how successful you are even though we're like a band where all our fans you know they buy our cds

they buy our albums you know like they're fucking death metal maniacs they're you know they don't really want to listen to spot spotify is like a younger kids thing you know or whatever i mean i listen to spotify but still i i don't listen to us on spotify unless i'm practicing some old songs anyway yeah we could link to spotify uh in the uh youtube and audio description so people just boom there to click it and boom yes thank you so much i appreciate it and thank you for having me hope i don't over babble no no no no it's you uh johnny you uh spoke uh you spoke your mind and you spoke your heart so uh so that's full That's what we want here.

And John, you are a fucking legend, dude. So thank you for your time and I'll see you at the show tonight. Can I say one thing? Let's do it. I watched some of your interview with Chris Barnes. And early on, I had an unwanted beef with Chris Barnes, you know. And I thought it was really good. It was really nice to see him.

He sounded very honest and very, sympathetic and I was is it showed me a side of Chris Barnes that I didn't know and um you know even though I'm not the biggest fan of his stuff I really hope that one day I do get to um you know reconnect with him and just talk to him and just apologize for maybe some of the um bad mouthing that I did because um I was really annoyed at him about a couple things and And it was juvenile. And I know he's playing with Jack, which is a good friend of mine. Not good friend, but a friend will say.

And, yeah. But the interview really made me look at him in a different light than I did before. So you did a great job with that. And shout out to him. Appreciate that. He's two and a half year sober. So he's, I think he's him now. Yeah.

More open. That's good to see. It's good to see that. I just, I didn't, you know, my first realization that he was like that was on, you know, watching your videos and stuff. So I thought that was cool. Wow. Cool. John, thank you.

Well, John, you are legend. And, yeah, I will see you tonight, man. Thank you. All right, everyone. That's it. Later.