Garza Podcast - 189 - PROFANATICA | Paul Ledney: Black Metal, Religion, GG Allin & Afterlife

Episode Date: July 14, 2025

Garza sits down in-person with Paul Ledney. Drummer & vocalist of black metal band PROFANATICA. Catch them on tour NOW! https://instagram.com/profanaticaofficialSPONSORS:Sweetwater - https://imp.i114863.net/rnrmVBDistroKid - https://distrokid.com/vip/garza 30% OFF!CHAPTERS:00:00 - Drumming at 5601:32 - Breathing Device05:20 - Birth of Metal10:05 - Chuck Berry13:20 - Black Metal, Religion & Cults27:04 - Aleister Crowley30:22 - European Black Metal History35:54 - Debut Album Destroyed40:26 - First US Black Metal Band45:50 - Church Burning // Marketing47:21 - Raw Talent vs Laptops49:48 - Posers55:29 - Researching Metal History58:03 - Drummers Lacking Style1:02:54 - No Music in the Car // Getting Ideas1:06:20 - Fake Happiness1:08:24 - Meeting John McEntee1:10:46 - Recording Quality1:13:25 - Playing Every Day1:16:10 - Being Abrasive1:21:37 - Album Artwork1:23:53 - Wife Being Supportive1:25:34 - Mom Being Supportive1:26:06 - Working w/ GG Allin1:36:46 - Bad Luck & Not Quitting1:38:48 - Afterlife Beliefs1:42:25 - First Musical Instrument?1:43:15 - Dave Lombardo // Slayer1:44:22 - Closing Thoughts

Paul Ledney. Good to see you, man. What's up? Thanks for having me. Anytime. I'm pretty, I was very stoked when I found out this was actually going to happen. Right on. You know, it's two opposing views of music.

Totally. Coming together. So I appreciate your time. Cool. Thanks. Did you sleep or what? We did. I know you were having an issue.

We were. We were. Schedule was a little crazy. Yeah, yeah. A couple long drives, late shows. Yeah. That type of stuff in a row is not great. Yeah.

And you have the double, like the double thing. You got to, you're playing drums and you sing at the same time. I'm sure that's pretty exhausting. It is. It's easy but hard, like everything, if you think about it. Yeah. So as long as like my cardio is good, I drink plenty of water. But there is a point where I'm like, I'm done for the day.

So. I'm done. Yeah. I just, I need to crash. Are you partying after or? No, not me. Just water. Black tea.

We got your black tea here. Thank you. You're 59. 56. It's okay. So still freaking drumming. Yeah. My, you know, people always ask.

Is that wrong? But yeah. Yeah. Somebody, a lot of people ask me about the cardio. It's something I never did back in the day. And it's so easy. Just walking, a little hiking. and I use like the boss root and breathing machine

if you've ever seen that. What is that? It's like a device that... I think I heard about it. Yeah, that's it. And what it is... What the freak is this, dude? What that is, is you keep switching out the connectors

to get less and less air. But for me, for my style, I'm all about exhaling. Yeah. So we have special, kind of breathing that we do in the band and tensing and uh it's all about the exhale the exhale it's it's specific to us and it's really hard to uh explain but all we you have to exhale on a hit you can't inhale on a hit yeah it would be the equivalent it makes sense when you start like when i hit the

symbol, I have to exhale. I can't inhale. All the force has to go out. Like somebody punching a heavy bag. Yeah, but what if you're doing a blast beat? Are these fucking, uh, blast breathing? So, on, on a blast beat, which my blasts are different than everybody's. Mine are all pounding. I start with the snare, but, uh, that's like a tensing, like holding your breath type of situation. Cool. So, so you're holding your breath during a freaking blast. And then once you're, open up Yeah, for all You know, it's normal breathing for most

But it's It's when we can exhale on a hit Yeah When it happens, that's the perfect time Okay, yeah So you blast different what? So you hit the snare first? Snare and high hat

Always on the downbeat Always I learned from you I never heard a downpeak be called the D beat Oh, okay So the D beat that like kind of discharge beat. Oh, so okay, so it is something else. Yeah.

I'd assume, okay, I never heard the deep beat before. I assume he's talking about a downbeat. Basically, where I got that beat was from the song Iron Maiden by Iron Maiden, Clive Burr. Okay. So if people want to kind of check that song out, maybe live, more so live because they were doing it faster back then. Oh, okay. So it's...

All right, so here's another way if people are interested, you could look at it. There's like a pulling beat and a pushing beat. Okay. So Dave Lombardo on the classic Slayer beats one of my huge influence on me. Nice. Would always hit the bass drum like most people do and the hi-hat first.

Yes. Yep. Boom, bap, boom, bap. That. I'm more backwards. like, bab boom, bat, boom. Oh, yeah, yeah. So I first heard that beat, believe it or not, as a kid,

Bill Ward used to do that. Oh, wow, okay. Yeah, and then when Clive Burr did it, I was like, this is it. I was a kid. I was like, I have to, I love this. And it just felt more natural, although I could do both styles and I kind of do on the dbeat.

Whenever it's like a blast or like a hard hitting part, it's that. It's that. Had a lot of people asked me about that. Well, it's cool to know where it came from. I don't know why it's surprised me that you're Iron Mena fan. I'm not sure why I feel surprised. So I grew up with like, I was there.

I was a kid, but I was in the late 70s for Kiss. Okay. And then I got to witness the birth of heavy metal. You know, so Sabbath and then just like a net. Being the age that I was at, if, you know, people are around my age listening, we saw it unfold right before our eyes. So we, we didn't come into it after. And that, I think, is my, I don't have a problem, but there's like a giant disconnect between people like myself who saw it happen. Yeah.

And watched it gradually happen versus people that got into. metal later because of their age or, you know, where they were located. And then they might have came in at what I would call a weird point. Does that make sense? Like, I was there when, like, heaven and hell and mob rules came out. So, of course, we loved that. And then after that, we were into priest. you know, early maiden

and as you said before, riot. Right, yeah. You know, new wave of British heavy metal stuff. Okay. All the way up to, you know, like, except and then Metallica. So you saw all like the different waves. Yeah.

Okay. But it was all, back then, it was all one thing. It was like, we called it metal, but if you like the terms are different nowadays yeah when did the like subgenre thing come i don't know about so and uh so it was so it wasn't a thing that no interesting yeah it was just i called it metal but now listening to it depending on the production it was more like kind of hard rock right like death leopard and yeah you know hard rock heavy metal wow it was all kind of one thing it was one thing So that does kind of explain the separation of people that were born with it and then born after it.

It's a big separation. It doesn't mean that it means I'm lucky to have been there for sure. But it doesn't mean I know more than these people and or were better, although there is like gatekeeping by some of the older guys, you know. Okay. And I was there and you just got into it. Sure. This is what I say, okay? I say this about like especially the new metal.

Oh, oh. Yeah. You could get into it. You could get into it whenever you get into it, right? But being a metalhead and or into punk, it's your duty to go back in time and then do the research up to 20205. You have to know it. It's like it's like if somebody wants to learn. English, but they, but they just want to do slang.

You know what I mean? Now. So you have to go back and you're like required to go back and do a little bit of research. Yeah. All right. Like Black Sabbath, uh, AC, you know, that was like blues influence, right? Yeah. ACDC is pretty much like, uh, Chuck Barry.

You know, I've been talking about Chuck Barry a lot, man. Yeah. Because my brain kind of goes Real quick because I'm a big fan of like down picking Yeah So okay I go okay So what's For me in my era is new model

Okay so I went to Slipknot Okay but they talk about James Heftfield And just now finally James is talking And he he cited John Ramon Okay cool So now I'm listening to John Ramon I find an interview of him talking about

Jimmy Page I can't find anything about Jimmy Page sane, but I look at the arrows, but I'm pretty sure Jimmy Page was jamming Chuck Berry. For sure. So when I do jumping, I've been trying to learn some Chuck Barry songs. Yeah. I think this is where a good origin and where, where, where, we're at now. You don't have, the people don't have to like nerd out, uh, specifically. Yeah, but it's interesting. You don't want to be a nerd either. No. Yeah. So, yeah, so, so how do you go back? Uh, they should like, so we had no internet, as you know, there was like tape.

trading. Yeah. And, uh, it, I mean, Chuck Berries. Yeah. Johnny Be Good. So my mom saw Chuck Berry in his heyday. Oh, that's it. She said it was pretty badass. Dang. And that, uh, there was nothing else like him. Nothing. Still not. I mean, he was his own guy. Johnny Be Good. Yeah. Live 1958. It's, that's crazy. So you think he did the downpicking? That's when I did my, like a little bit of research, I kind of assume Jimmy and Page was listening to Chuck Berry only because of like the era. Yeah. I assume he's a kid here. He has to be jamming Chuck Barry. Who else doing downpick in the 50s?

So the downpicking sounds better, you think? I think depending on what you want to do, I think most people are a fan of like the percussive aspect of it. Mm-hmm. So I love it. So some rift just call for it. Some rips call for a fucking this like a fucking, like a fucking, and, Johnny, Johnny Be Good is like, that's kind of like the fucking song. Yeah, nah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's like, he says, he's just fucking hammering.

Yeah. So he had energy. That, that too. So here's another thing with new metal, okay? I'm so here for it, man. Yeah, the, what I'm interested in is the intent of the band. Right? So I can't really get too into it right now,

but we have some secret type of practices that we use, like breathing. And there's also like a little bit of tinge of quantum mechanics involved. Like what are we thinking during this note? There are certain parts where we're thinking certain things rather than just playing them. So let's just say that each thought, the human has has like an associated energy with that yeah and it's like anything else you practice it

you get good at it so certain songs and certain parts have certain thoughts that all three of us are thinking during that did you do that same process with the ep just came out yeah okay yeah what are you thinking about uh i can't say honestly i can't pronounce that that first word i don't even I think I've seen that word ever. Weathered? Oh, wreathed. Reith. What is that word?

Like, reithed. It's like, you know, like a, to be like circled. Like, reithed. Oh, oh, my. Yeah. It's just, oh, I was like, what is that word in Dead Angels? I'm like, okay. Yeah, so it's like, it's stupid.

Stupid and. Circle surround. Oh, okay. It's stupid and genius, like all of our stuff. Hmm. Okay, so surrounded by Dead Angels, in Dead Angels. Yeah. Got it.

And actually, that was, I came up with the title based on what the artist did for us. It's pretty sick, dude. It is. The guy's good. Yeah. He's good. There's been, Paul, there's been two moments in my life where I'll leave here, like, when it's dark because it's just less traffic. And I know you're part and I'm a fan of this.

particular band, but two times I was driving home, I was scared. Because I was just listening to the records. I was listening to Dark Funnel. And I was like, I hope I don't fucking crash because it can't be good if you're dying, listening to Black Metal. Yeah. And it was listening. I put on the remaster version of your first record.

Right on. Driving home at night is California. So it's mountains. And she was looking. I'm like, this is, I'm scared. It's evil. I hope. I don't want to crash.

listening to this, you know. That's great. I kind of want, Paul, I kind of want to get your, your, your backstory. Okay, sure. When, when you're a child, you're, so you mentioned that your mom saw Chuck Berry and was a fan, which surprised me because, so your mom taught religious classes, correct? She did. Oh, okay. And, uh, I was kind of careful.

kicked out for asking simple questions. You made a goal to be kicked out of every class you were in. I didn't. I didn't want to do that. So like, here's the thing. Okay. We're not, me personally and the band, we're not trying to offend people. So we're, it's probably even worse, right?

Yeah. We're just doing what comes natural. And if they're offended, that's like kind of a happy accident. We're like, cool, that's fun. Interesting. Yeah, we're not like this is, I can't tell you how naturally. it is, which might be scary in itself. Like, this is our thoughts, this is what we do.

It's you. Yeah. So what you're seeing now, me talking to you, is like a really stripped down. I'm on my best behavior type of thing. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm older now. Yeah.

I don't know. So she did. And she never forced it on you. Yeah. So you were going to Sunday school. Yeah, not Sunday school, but like, we had religion class, like, once a week kind of thing. Okay. And it was like after school and...

You know how it is for a kid. They wheel and deal. So she's... I'm like, I can't do this anymore. She's like, all right, well, we'll go do this if you do this kind of thing. And I'm like, all right, right on. How old? Were you at this point?

I want to say, like, 11. 11, okay. Or maybe 8 to 11. kind of thing. And then she's like, uh, formative years. Yeah. I mean, I didn't pay attention in the slightest. Like nothing to learn about it was, uh, pushed on me. Yeah. So I, I knew nothing about it. I asked simple questions. Do you still happen to me members, some of the questions? Uh, it's got, it's got, it's got, it's got, it's got, it's got even real. I said, uh, were Adam and Eve cavemen? And they were like, oh, kids snack time.

we're done for the day. And I, at the time, didn't understand what that meant now. I was like, that was pretty badass that I asked that when I was so young. Dude, I just found out literally, it's weird. I'm talking to you now, Paul, but I just literally found out there's actually other stories about Adam and Eve. Mm-hmm. Where that's, that, that are completely separate from the Bible. How maybe that, I know some people say, are saying that actually Eve slept with

Satan and that there's actually Really? That there might be like other side That's actually not There probably is It could be

Like everything There's another side There's always other side It could be much better Or much worse But it's definitely different You know So who knows

Okay so you asked All right Are Adam and Eve cave men That's and then Snack time Yeah Class is over Yeah

And it was good And But But these were just Natural questions from... Totally. Just from like a young kid. Yeah. Now, without going into it too much... Oh, let's go into it.

My wife went to Catholic school. Okay. And she... This is God in the late 70s, 80s. Okay. She kind of... I don't want to say traumatized, but her and her group of friends that had went that saw other people get hit and beat on, it has an effect on you. Totally. times, well, a lot of times it's worse for somebody to watch somebody go through it than for you to go through it.

I mean, somebody hits you in class like a nun or whatever way back in the day. It is, but to watch somebody do it, like look at that penguin there. I'm not sure why this. Look at that. Handle that shit. I don't know what to say to that. That's awesome. Immediately.

It is kind of, if you look at it, there is some kind of darkness, dude. that picture. It is. That's kind of like a crazy picture. If you're just listening, we're looking at a very old picture, probably from the 80s of a class with like a nun. Yeah. Everyone has like buttoned up shirts and dresses. So kind of creepy. I don't know. They don't do that anymore. They don't do a lot of things anymore. Yeah. But that, that type of watching somebody go through that, I think hits somebody harder. Like watching their classmate who they've been in the same classes in Catholic school from kindergarten to like sixth grade. So, you know, not everybody is like best friends, but you know that person.

You know what I mean? They're in your life and then watching them get hammered. The stories that related to me, I was like, oh, my God. I really didn't have any of that. So I know that I was lucky not being stuck in there. So you're going to like So you're talking about Catholics So maybe you were going to like a Christian

I don't know I think so? It's just some kind of like religious Yeah just standard stuff But let me tell you something About the religion Come on the way out here Without naming any names

We've seen like full on cults Right out in the open Like just different styles of religion. You know? Like, so somebody said to me once, um, the only difference between religion and a cult is a number of members.

And I was like, I like that. I'm going to steal that. And they were like, go ahead. But it's so true. If you think about it. Yeah, religion is, it's, uh, I mean, this is the whole point of what I'm doing. Why am I doing it?

I don't know. I don't want to. I have to now at this. So it's a business and it's a hell of a force to be reckoned with. So I get a lot of people that were like stuck in this, that Mormon, what have you. And they're like, or Jehovah's Witness and they were like, I got out. And then I discovered pro fanatica. You know what I mean? I see a lot of that.

And I'm like, I'm glad you got out. Good job. It's horrible to be like a victim of that. And, but I never went through that personally. So I've seen it. Yeah. And that's why I say it's like, I was kind of lucky. I was never, like, forced into something.

This is what we believe and this and this is what we're doing now. So I was kind of more free than a lot of people would believe, religion-wise. Interesting. I hear you talk about, you said blasphemy is very real. So then I was kind of wondering, I wonder, I wonder if something happened to him or like, No. So, like, blaspheming in public, uh, it is offensive. And like, if I just say, uh, something that's like, uh, you know, considered a blasphemy.

Yeah. It's like vocal. So I said it. It's already out there. Mm. You know? Yeah. So that's what I mean about like it's real.

It's real. Yeah. It's a thing. Yeah. And so people, just so it's clear or not, you're not a, you're not a Satanist at all. No. No. It's this anti- Yeah.

Very anti-Christian. Yeah. And, and like, so it's the institution of these religions that I'm not into. Okay. And I guess, like, you know, the double standard bullshit and. Can we read this real quick, Paul? Christian organizations in the U.S. generate billions of dollars in revenue annually,

a loan bringing around $74.5 billion per year. So that is a... It's a law. It's a little chunk of change. I'll be stoked to have 74 billion pennies. Yeah. That'd be sick. Here's something you might like.

At my house, the deal is, if, like, religious people come to the door. Yeah. I can't curse at them, no curse words, and I can't raise my voice. There's a good rule to have. And I said, fair enough. Could I whisper? They're like, yeah, do whatever you want.

So I'm really good at backhanded compliments. Okay. Really good. You're like, God, isn't real? So, no, nothing like that. Like, I'm not just walking around being like a mean person. Yeah. But I'm like, you guys are in a cult and blinked,

twice if you need help. And they're like, oh, fuck. So I'm like, uh, you kind of are. You're wearing the exact same thing.

I mean like not one guy in a, uh, not like one guy like in a suit and another guy in another suit. I mean, it is like, this is what we picked out for you. Yeah. And I go,

uh, how'd you get here? I know. Then they go, well, yeah, we have a ride and I go, is your ride hiding around the corner?

And they're like, Like, maybe. So, you know, they drop these teenagers essentially into these neighborhoods. Yeah. And they're like, go hand out our pamphlet. And that, I think, is wrong. Not the message so much. Like, who gives a shit about the message?

It's probably bullshit. But the fact that they are, like, making these teenage kids go door to door to people that they don't know. What a balsy move, man. I'm like, yeah. That sucks. I know. I would, I look outside and try to talk to them. I know just all day they're just getting in the fucking door to slamming their face all day.

They do. So I always step out and I'm like, I only have two. I go, I have two minutes. Yeah, yeah. Same. But so that's like the rules of my house. That's fucking badass, man. It's fucking talking for a little bit.

Yeah. So, yeah, look at them. It's like, if you're talking, like, if you're talking religion, you're basically, going up to a stranger's house, this is the way I view. You're going up to a stranger's house and basically saying you want to talk about how you die. Yeah. Essentially speaking, right? Mm-hmm. It's kind of, that's... In what's going to happen. But look, they're all dressed the same. So I could... They should just let them wear my little t-shirt or something. Or whatever they want. Yeah, I just saw it like a skate shirt or so. Yeah. So I don't know. Those, those people, some of

look a little bit older and it looks like they're having fun, they're not having fun. They're told this is what you're wearing and this is what you're doing. Yeah. And if you get, I don't know, if they even get fed lunch, if they, at the risk of generalizing, I kind of look at some religion, I kind of look at like someone just read one book and they kind of live their life that way. Where suppose if you read multiple books, you have more like a perspective,

oh shit, maybe that's true. Yeah. Maybe that's not. I can take a piece from this or that. Yeah. It's like imagine only reading one book and where you would be with your perspective. Yeah.

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Hey, Jay, pull up the, what's the name, Alistair? Oh, okay. Who is this, Paul? Because I know I know you said you take a source from your beliefs from this person. This is kind of like difficult. So you read different books growing up. I read the book of the law and stuff. The what? I'm sorry. Book of the Law, one of his books. Okay. So one of the things that, uh, that I liked about him. A book of the law. Okay. Oh, okay. 1904. Yeah. Was, was not necessarily his, uh, his teachings. Okay. But I was more interested in, like, in his personal life. Have you looked at his Wikipedia? It's pretty interesting. Okay. So he did a lot of like mountain climbing and this and that. But one of the things that I really liked reading into is,

was that he would join an organization, and then very slowly he'd be like become the head of that organization, like just take over. Yeah. So I was interested in that aspect, more so like his occult knowledge. Just a take over? Yeah, yeah.

Like, I'm not saying I want to take over, but I was interested and I found it amusing that he would like, oh, then he joined this occultist, group and then a year or two later he became the head and then fired everybody you know like interesting yeah so he had some kind of uh power or way what you think with the women oh yeah just always what the thing was just the way like he found a way to talk to people how to yeah probably just knew how to yeah that is a skill it's probably smooth yeah so being a smooth talker that that that's a fucking skill it is like jean simmons says like who cares how

good you are on bass it's are you good schmoozer yeah and i'm like that's kind of true if you think about it yeah yeah can you can you can you can you can you write a fucking riff not not a lot of people could write a rip they they go fucking a rip all day do but i know can't write a simple 4-4 you know i like like so our stuff is you heard it it's we take like a full song and then we strip it down we get rid of all nonsense and it's like so basic and i think that uh people when they first hear it they're like oh there we like this better there's no we took solos out and uh oh yeah there there is there's no no then then i think about it sick um i uncreated the solos sick so uh one thing that that i liked is uh

this stripped down, like, war metal-type, like, feel to it. Yeah. And although Hellhammer had some solos, like, back then, like Tom Warrior did solos, I like that, like, kind of punky, raw, like... Yeah. Like, here's the thing, like, the punk is infused in U.S. black metal. It's already in there. Yeah, it's like you can't take it out.

You can't. Now, with the European. style. You've heard me talk about it. Which you're obviously a big fan of. I am. I love it. I wear that little cult shirt with those kids and blast it. But those guys, they took like the death metal out of it. Okay. And then just created their own thing. And I say like great for them. They kind of commandeered the term black metal. Because back in, if you really do the research, this is what I'm talking about. Back in 89 to 90, when it was kind of first,

the second wave was first started. Yeah. It was, the black metal back then was black death metal. Like, if you check out the Impaled Nazarene demo, check out the Marduk demo. It's all death metal base, but evil death metal. Yeah. And I want to say the only band that was kind of doing that,

Norwegian style at the time was immortal. I don't know if you had a chance to talk to him. Oh no, I met him at all. Okay. I would love to you though. He'd be a good guest. But so like I said, for this,

it was important that I was there. I like kind of hold that dear to my heart that I was there for the beginning of this black metal. But there was like this black death metal, is they call it now with the term, it was just called black metal then. And that only lasted maybe a year and a half. If you research the bands coming out from Norway,

they started around 92 to 93. Okay. And in my opinion, a year is a really long time in music, considering somebody gives you a disc, right? Or a vinyl, you're jamming it, you like it. and then you end up in a couple of days memorizing the whole damn thing. So imagine a year of that. Bands were probably rehearsing in the garage and doing that style,

but nobody was out like, here's our demo, everything back then. So I want to say there's another piece to this that nobody knows, and that is the people that wrote zines back then, fan zines. So the early ones, if you go back to like the, and I don't really have the names off the top of my head, but if you go back to like early zines from 89 to 90, it was mostly death metal and black metal, but all of the black metal bands played death metal, evil death metal style. Like who's that? That's blasphemy, right?

Yeah, yeah. Blasamy is part of our family. Yeah. You know? Yeah, it was down. Writing Crys Immortal. Yeah. Pie bands, you're kind of sick.

So, I don't know, I guess there's like essentially three waves. Because that like black death metal phase, it's still going on, but no bands were featured in zines that were like the majority. Once the Norwegian bands started coming out was all them. Yeah. And our stuff kind of got lost. Yeah. Yeah, I know, I know where we, we should go from here. So, okay.

Literally like, if you're, so a lot of people listening and watching, it's like, it's like a very light, like, our audience is very vast. Sure. So a lot of people right now are, like, the first time. Yeah. So, me, me included, literally, like, once I, I, literally, like, the first thing I saw of you, Paul was like, okay, I, okay, start doing some research. death metal was first black metal or deaf metal was the first black metal was like evil death metal got it yeah so that's how I describe it

like if you go back and listen to these bands like let's say the Marduk demo that was like evil death metal based but they were calling it black metal because that's what it was at the time so this new wave started and I call it new geez uh yeah that's it that thing's great. Holy, what is... That's the Mardu Fuck Me Jesus demo

and if you listen to it, you're going to hear what I'm talking about. Okay. And then, all right, so let's... Just the title. Yeah, great title. And I wrote to them, we traded. Oh, yeah, that's cool.

Yeah. So then these guys, like, they didn't change, they morphed into more what black metal is today. and like if you picture that sound of black metal. Yeah. What I'm doing is holding on to that like era that was like really brief.

Actually, a brief. Yeah, it was very like a brief era. That was not, yeah, you're right. That was 92. Yeah. Right, okay. Yeah. So that's kind of the way band sounded back then.

It didn't sound like what black metal would sound like today. Mm-hmm. But, you know. Yeah. Yeah, I wonder where, where it would have. win because all it takes for a style of music or a genre to completely change is literally one band or even one record and unfortunately paul you have some pretty first off uh your band's been the round four i think we just hit 25 years yeah 20 years are just evil yeah um but you try to do

you try to record a first record in early 90s but you just had really bad luck let's just leave it at that was bad luck yeah really bad luck yeah Yeah. So you don't find out until years later, like your other members put a magnet to the tape. They did. So how do you, so you have the record recorded, right? And then you're listening back with engineer. What were you thinking of feeling when it kept dropping out and stretching out and all that?

I mean, I was in shock, but I was like, could you fix it? And he's like, no. This is like two inch tape. So that sucks. It sucks. So I don't want to go too far into this. I got it. One of the people is still alive.

One of them is no longer with us. Yeah. I'll just say that a couple of people like on my team approached me and said, yo, you have to get somebody else and finish this. It's very important. You've got to redo it. Yeah. And I didn't.

I was like, I was kind of beaten down. You're beating down. That's just what I was 21. So I was a kid and I didn't know how to handle that. Yeah. And it was more or less like, shit. Now what? And then we were like, who has tapes of how far we got?

There was no base on it. Oh, man. Yeah. So unfortunate, man. It was. Fuck. Let me, I'll just add this. I've never added this.

I'll do it for you. Okay. Thank you, Paul. Appreciate that, man. The people that I had were not cutting it on or in the studio or outside of the studio. And I was very vocal about that. Looking back, though, was I too brutal? I wasn't.

I was just like, guys, like, this is so simple. So you'd go somebody to do guitar, like, run through, like, let's say one pass. Yeah. was taking days to do like one or two songs. Oh my goodness. And then the guy at the studio who we did the demo with and the Weeping in Heaven with, he's like, yo, call so-and-so.

He'll come in here. And I'm like, eh, I don't want to redo this whole thing again. This was like a good solid year of writing and planning and practicing. Yeah. And it was good what we had of it. And like looking back, Of course I should have done it. I should have just gotten whoever I had to

because everybody, I didn't know that having a full link was like really important. Especially then. Then. Then. Like now you could do a demo or an EP and put it on Spotify. Yeah.

But then like our quote unquote career would have been way different had I put something good out. Yeah, people, I mean, throughout a majority of your career Paul, no one had a record to last John did they have, yeah, I know that. The demo, yeah.

No one had that fucking wrecked. I know that. So, I mean, they tried to talk me into it. And you just, I was like, I can't. It was like, it took too long to get this far. Do you stubborn, you think, or what, or just, were you just set in like your weight? No, not at all.

I was just young and didn't know how to handle it. Yeah. And I was like, I just kind of got fucked, like, hard. and I was more in shock for weeks and weeks that that happened than I was like upset or angry. I was like in shock. Like how could this have happened? Yeah. And you didn't know until like years later.

Yeah. Man. Because then you mentioned things were like things for you and your band were lined up like perfectly or you got like the best like airbrushed artists to do like the artwork. And you're stoked about the artwork. Totally. And everything was just about to put out probably like. like a, as I would call it, like a genre changing record.

And it just fell, pull apart, man. And then, and then you mentioned that if you, you believe, because your band at that time was literally like, in front of like the U.S.

black metal. Yeah, we weren't trying to be first, but that's like, kind of where we were positioned. Yeah. I found you guys in a band from Hawaii. Yeah, who was that? It's fun.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I'll say, I'll go on, like, say, I'm not talking shit this session. But I'll just say that they weren't really a thing back then. Okay, yeah. Nobody had the demo. They weren't really in any zines. Nobody was writing or talking.

So they might have been together or they might have been together and working on stuff. I mean, maybe recording their jams. That's another thing. Like during this time, there was lots of unnamed people that were there working on their own stuff in their garage or their rooms. They're like, this is my stuff. I'm going to make it. So as long as like the subject is open, that photo right there. And then I don't want to talk about this anymore, but that would be the lineup of the.

So take a good look. Yeah. And realistically, I did nothing wrong. I was of course I was like being a jerk and like back then and like kind of hardheaded but it was simple shit to play these songs that are like really easy to play and just hit them like my drums are good they're like just how we all knew how I play they could certainly follow me but yeah it just wasn't being hit so there was some passive aggressive behavior them showing up on days that were off days like on purpose it was

very strange. Sick. So the guy from, you know, our engineer at the time who's since passed, he, uh,

yeah, he was like, uh, dude, this, you gotta get new guys. They're not cutting. This has to come out.

They flat out stink. And I was like, uh, they just need another try. You know, I was like pushing and encouraging to the point that I couldn't anymore.

Mm-hmm. You know. Yeah, so I guess you felt that, uh, that record came, out it would have changed us totally black metal this did this would have set the tone yeah totally i mean there was like so there was uh you know the impaled nazarene album right from osmos uh the rodin christ

came out then the blasphemy came out on a you know different label and then god's a war for osmos but uh that was kind of like we were all like in one group like family kind of thing if that makes sense and it was everybody back then had their own style of playing and they don't know. You know what I mean? And I never really looked at it so much of where somebody's located.

But I mean, because look, impaled Nazareen and Beherit sound nothing alike and they're both from Finland. So when people are like, we've got to capture this, you know, New York sound. Yeah. In my head, like being my age,

I'm like, that's so stupid. There shouldn't be a New York sound. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah, like, what the hell is, is that even? Like, it should, they should just play what they like, and as a result, you're going to get good at it. So there's the outside people that are like,

yo, that's, that's like New York Sound or this is New Jersey Sound or California sound. Yeah, I'm like, lame. If I'm, like, you know, like, just join the church if you're going to follow along. You know, I want to be like this guy. I want to be like that guy. Yeah. I kind of get it.

Yeah. But we just, we sounded nothing. like anybody. We just, like, were influenced by obviously seven churches, the necrovore demo from Texas, heavily influenced by that. And, uh, and, uh, I was influenced by that band NME, the unholy death. I don't know if you've ever heard that. I never heard of until, until right now. Yeah, I think that you should get out really late tonight and put that on and walk home and then call me and see how you feel. Okay. It's pretty like...

When did this come out? 86. Okay. And it's like... I was one years old. It's very scary. Okay. Done with like...

So that influenced me. NME. Unholy deck. Yeah. That thing, the bass sound on that is... It's pretty brutal. Is that where you got your bass sound from? Yeah.

Because you're... Yeah. Like pretty much from that. You really... I noticed like they really turn the bass up. I like. I like it. Yeah.

And I got like, cool. Sometimes to the chagrin of like the guy who's mixing. Okay. He's like, the base doesn't really sit good there. I'm like, leave it.

In fact, the only thing you're allowed to do is turn it off. I want it obnoxious. It's there. Yeah. Good. It's good. Okay, so this is,

uh, this is on my to-do list. Yeah. So there's another. You, you'll have to research. Like, There's some interesting stories with this, too, that I can't talk about because it's not my story, but it's pretty brutal.

It's brutal. Very. And that's the thing, like, at that time, in your era, Paul, like, there were stories around bands. Yeah, sure. Like, crazy, like, I mean, that involved, you know, like, suicide and death and this crazy shit. A lot. It's like, man, and now that era just kind of stopped. It did.

I mean, it's kind of lucky. Luckily, it stopped. But the whole, like, church burning thing, which you weren't a fan of. Like, in Norway, like, yeah, I mean, I don't care. I don't give a shit. But that's what did it for them. And they were like, now we own the name Black Metal. And I was like, damn, these guys are good.

That's some marketing genius shit right there because it is marketing. It's like, for me, it's just like mid music with no bass and no attitude. See, that's the thing like, let's go back to Chuck Barry for a second. He had a certain attitude when playing. These guys do not. It's very cold. The picking hand is not like ballsy, so to speak.

Somebody like Jeff Hannanman had like a hard. Yeah, he's digging. Yeah. He's fucking digging. Yeah. And that is what I look for. And for me, all right, I'm a little snob that if you don't have that, and I'm like, you might be a cool guy, but just don't bring it around me. You know what I mean? And if I hear it, let's go back to intent, too. Intent. When I hear something on, let's say, liquid metal, I immediately think, all right, this is new stuff. I'm not naming names, but a lot of the bands have like three names to their band. Yeah, let's just name them.

So like, I often wonder, I like the studio. The drummers now in death metal or tech death are amazing. Yeah, yeah. But I'm like, if I just took your laptop, let's just say, and unplugged it, you had to play the set without it or your giant rack, in ears and all this bullshit. Could you do it in a, let's say, a place like this just set up? And if you could, what would it sound like? Mm-hmm.

that's all I'm saying. What do you sound like? Yeah, they probably couldn't do, is what I'm saying. Yeah. You know what I mean? So, like a small club I like, like we hit the regent last night. It was sick. Nice.

Pro sound. Everything was good. People loved it. They knew our stuff, which is always good, right? Yeah, it's very important. But I forgot to mention that. So while I take their laptop and they're, like, struggling because I've seen it happen. Yeah.

You know, where's the iPad? Yeah. I'll be filling their laptop full of porn, like, behind the scenes. Oh, perfect. Yeah. Yeah. I think you better wash those keys off. But here it is back.

Here's your triggers and all your shit you need. So it's good to have, but you have to be able to do it without that. Yeah. How's that? Is that fair? It's fair. You got to have your foundation. Yeah.

What is your foundation? Can I just fucking play. Yeah. So is. is you found that pretty quick you love this picture the laptop and the in-year i don't hate it like so i guess pa's talking shit i'm not i love it i think that uh i'm i'm misunderstood and that like people like oh you probably hate my band i'm like no it doesn't work it's not like that it's just like seeing that okay how about this i'll try to explain it seeing that setup

and then seeing a drummer going i need that setup i'd be like You never heard, I don't know who that is, but you never heard that guy play. It's about the music first. The music has to come first. Always, it has to. It has to come first. I did have a question because I think you would be the guy to answer it because because Paul, some people call me a poser.

So I was like, what is, what does that even mean? Like, what's, I was like. A lot of posers ask that question. Oh, shit, really? What does it mean? All right. I'm just kidding. You guys heard it here first.

I am, I am a poser. All right. Buzzers, coming from you, like, what is a poser to you? Okay. Posers don't annoy me because I've identified them since, like, let's say, 1984. Oh, wow. Okay.

So it's somebody that's insincere. How's that? Okay. All right? Yeah. And that's, so you don't have to be honest with me, but if you're not honest with yourself, I'm going to see it right away. Yeah.

And that's, I think I just explained it good. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. So you have to be sincere with who you are. Yeah, for sure. And if you're not, it'll show right through. It shows, dude. And it's fine if you're like that when you just get into it.

All right. Or I'm researching this. Like, pick any subject or any job. You're not going to know anything right away. But if you really want to learn and you're like, this is how these guys do it. you know that's pretty much it it's it's like insincere and and i could see it a mile away yeah you can so here's the the reality you like what you like yeah and you do what you do and as a result of that uh you're gonna only one thing's going to happen you're going to get

good at it yeah so somebody's all all right so for instance i don't the 80s poser metal from back in the day. That's a genre? Yeah. Eddie's poser metal? Yeah. Those guys were, they were singing about like, uh, girls and doing blow. And they did just that.

They weren't trying to be like, yeah, anything other than that. And I see that in today's music that in sincerity, like, more than ever. Really? Yeah. So look at it this way. I ask a lot of people They're like oh I like your band I come and see it

And I go oh cool They're like I'm in a band too And I'm like cool what is it And they were like I'd rather not say And I'm like you're not gonna like it And I'm like who cares what I think You use that like little conviction in your shit So when I turn on liquid metal

In the car That's all I hear Is those voices going you're not going to like my band. We have laptop set off. Oh, yeah, yeah. We copy so-and-so sound. And it's just like, come on.

Do your own shit, you know? Yeah. So how conviction and what you do, especially with the music? Uh-huh. It kind of stems for just knowing who you are. Yeah, that's it. Now, here's another thing.

Let's say people like, I like this band. I want to make a band that sounds just like them. Yeah. Okay, because there's a lot of that. The bands, a lot of these, like, black metal bands, their first album sounds exactly like somebody's. Yeah. That's fine.

What do I care? They're learning about who they're becoming. Yeah. You know, and it must be tough. Like, so, you know, I think we got internet in, like, let's say, like, 94. 94, big year. You know what I mean? there wasn't a lot of stuff up there but having access to it now I don't know what I would be like

if I just was like let's say 14 or 15 I have a base let's just say and then I go on the internet and research metal what should I do those questions are fine when you're just starting out I think and I think once you've had like one or two albums out by any genre in the metal you've got to stop like listening and looking up to other stuff. Yeah. You know what I mean? Maybe you gotta look up to yourself. Yeah, for sure.

And don't be scared. That's the message. You've seen our angel with the long penis and the trumpet. Yes. That's very impressive. Strong image against fear in like propaganda. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. So I was jamming this. There we go. Oh, wow. That should be like mandatory tattooed, I think. I think that's going to be my next tattoo, Paul. All right.

Okay. There's a ton of people that have it. Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah. People have that tattooed on them? Ton of people. Oh, fuck.

They'll send me like, you know, pictures and emails and DMs. Yeah. There's some nice ones. Oh, there's a lot of detail there. Sick. So I looked for some. I didn't find a lot What's that?

Is that one? Dude, it's crazy to put that on your fucking flesh, man. I mean, I have it right here. That's six. Well, you're a fucking living bodyment of your music. So I hope I cleared up like the new metal stuff. Yes. And then one more thing.

Do you think there is a level of research involved? but just do like a little bit of research of the, you might like a band or what, maybe do you like a little bit of research is that. What do you mean? Like, if you don't want to be a poser, like, just, should you like just a little bit of research

like we were talking about earlier? Or do you think that's mandatory? I think it's like, or are you, if you, if you're really who you are, and you really like some music, shouldn't you naturally have a drive? Yeah, to go. do it to go

I'll do a little bit of reach okay there's black Sabbath there's you know yeah it should have come naturally and the thing is like metal should accept like everybody into the group no matter who or what they are

but they have to like you don't ask can I be cool like you guys you just do it yeah you just yeah and now I see a bunch of askers that's true yeah like can I be cool And I'm like, no.

You know what I mean? Yeah, you're not cool. Yeah. But I mean, if they just did it, it's none of my business. You know what I mean? Sure. Don't like, that is something I am noticing a little bit that concerns me. It could be generalizing.

But like, for example, like a lot of people that listen to like, I guess like death core stuff, like, you know, my, my band, they don't only know any history. And I try not to let it bother me. Like they don't nothing about like suicide science or where the genre even came from. I'm like, is that good or bad? So you have to just say, look, we're band practice tomorrow. Yeah. And I want like a report on or they need to have at least a working knowledge about where the whole thing started. Yeah.

And branched off. And you don't have to do it in one day, but you have to kind of know. Yeah, you have to know where you come from. You got to know. And I think that this, like, because there's older, you've talked to older people like me that are like, oh, this socks, that socks. Yeah, yeah. I think there's like this, the disconnect comes from them not researching where they come from or not caring to. So that's, again, goes to like the insincerity.

Like, let's put it to you this way, okay? all the new death core drummers and the speed death metal drummers are more skilled than me let's just say that but they don't have their own style

it's almost like a trick they do they got really good at blasting amazing at double bass and then they're told or I guess the laptop tells them where to put shit so that feel is kind of lost so when somebody puts it on I'm like

Damn, this drummer's sick. And then two seconds later, I'm like, I gotta turn it off. Like, I can't listen to it. Like, it's just, I don't know, maybe I'm like. It's missing something. Yeah, yeah. And I think it's, it could be the intent. I don't know.

Yeah. Maybe I am like extra sensitive and I could like feel that. Yeah, what do you think about, because especially being in the band that you're around, I'm curious, what do you think about because you have he had three kids

yeah and your oldest probably had 23 or some 22 yeah okay yeah he's not in into metal so so he likes a little bit

a little bit so what do you do when you're in the car and they start putting stuff good question stuff on he got called out uh

in Florida wearing a pro bonoic like he so he put yeah you guys want to hear this he's gonna kill me if I tell the story but too bad I would love to hear it.

He was, he grabbed, first of all, all three of them, just grab whatever merch is in the back and put it on. Oh, yeah. And I'm like, what are you doing? That's $20. And then they walk out, but they all like it. They know it's badass. Yeah. And he was wearing a long sleeve.

He was going to Florida, visit a couple friends. because we're in Connecticut. And I go, you sure you want to wear that? Yeah. And he goes, fine. So he got called out at a CVS in Florida in the middle of nowhere online getting stuff. And somebody goes, name two songs.

Oh, my goodness. And he texted me and he goes, I got called out. I couldn't name two songs. So I go, how did that feel, buddy? I told you, right in the kitchen. Do what you want, but. I told you in the kitchen. Deal with the consequences.

And he did. And he goes, not too good. I go, just, it'd be better for you. It's like, Paul Ledney's my dad. I don't even really like the band. Then that's okay. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's, like, more legit.

Yeah. But in the car, I go put on feel the darkness from Poison Idea. Mm-hmm. And take me to Starbucks. And they're like, got it. And they will. So in terms of like,

let's just say my middle son will not deal with like new metal at all. And I didn't tell them this. I didn't force anything on there. Yeah. They found this by themselves. And they have roots. And I appreciate that. And I never said you need to go back and research to them.

Yeah. Never. They just did it on their own. What are they finding? Uh More that That Poison Idea

Yeah Old Metal Wait so is this That's Poison Idea The Band Feel the Darkness is Wait When this band come out

They started in 82 They're like the true kings of punk But this is 1990 Oh shit Yeah So It's good Okay

It's better than good So they're finding this on their own naturally Yeah, well now of course they're like What other bands like so my They asked me about like Saxon Satan And like more new wave of British heavy metal shit

Like UFO Thin Lizzie like So they kind of went back And you know There's a lot of stuff they don't Like new stuff so I must make you feel proud of like a day I am totally

Totally that's the greatest gift And when like I come home from work And he's like, yo, I learned a repulsion song on bass And we had never talked about repulsion ever Oh, you're stoked I was like wow Do I have like a little tear in my eye now? This is great

So I mean are you like Are you driving with him And you're just putting on bands? No, like most of the time I don't like to listen to music in the car Why? I don't know It's like a plate too much already

Yeah kind of like it, I don't know. But do you constantly have music on? I, for one, I'm kind of like, I need some downtime. So I get a little sick of it. Driving in a car in silence is like is so underrated. Yeah. Just driving like, okay, like sometimes like,

sometimes that there's no like podcast to you or my, I don't want to listen to music about this is like a moment. Like, hey, it's telling you go out for a drive and this fucking let your mind just go. just drive and get and get some coffee. Yeah, almost like people in the shower, that's when their good ideas happen. Too long what it is. You're just naturally doing it.

You know, you're naturally just under the water rinsing off and an idea will hit you. When do you ideas hit you? All day. All day. Yeah. And honestly, like being on the road now, we're on the road, I get like, there's a certain mode I'm in.

and it's kind of hard to explain that when I get like three or four texts in a row, I'm like, I can't do this now. Like I'm in a certain mode of like playing and preparing. I don't know if it was like that for you. Oh, yeah. But I would rather have somebody else deal with that. Yeah. So, I mean, we're not slip-knought.

I don't have a personal assistant. So I just ask for help. Yeah. and somebody's like yeah I'll handle that I'll email that guy back and you know we have our TM that's helping and driving and stuff so it's sick they're handling more stuff for me than they probably should but they say they don't mind so that's dope do what you when do you get ideas lately it's uh it's it's it's been random yeah actually uh I've been doing a trying not trying to be careful how I see it is But if I'm doing research, sometimes ideas to come.

Okay. Just start playing. Or sometimes it's kind of like watching something and you're just playing. Yeah. Like I'm listening to what I'm watching. I'm listening to what the words are being taught. And then a riff would just kind of fly out. Yeah.

You know, or then or just noodling a riff might come out. Yeah, sure. And I found that it was just the most frustrating thing. so I'm literally right in the middle trying to figure it out my idea has come when my personal life is in order yeah of course like like boring stuff but the like the results are just so profound like if my bed's made if my bathroom is clean

if my car is clean and washed if this room in here is clean yeah my computer my email is and the ideas come it's it's the daily boring maintenance stuff. If that's all in order, that's when I'm in the shower or driving. This ideas come.

But it's just kind of off. I notice that shit turns off quick. It does. It's scary. Like you got to have your life kind of in order. I get it. It's not like I need to get my life in order so I could have ideas,

but that's when it pops out is when it's in order. Yeah, for sure. And also, there's a thing on like, positivity too. If you're keyed up and angry all the time, you're not getting anything. Nothing's getting done.

Why am I surprised that it's you saying that? Really? Yeah. I think that people might have the wrong idea about me. Yeah, I mean, I guess, yeah, they see the artwork and I'm like, oh, he's probably is fucking evil, dude. I do hate it. Pissed off all the time. I do hate when people are happy,

but I have said that a couple of times. That's good Yeah Yeah That actually And then That came from my oldest son When he was young

We were watching a show Yeah And he said those words I hate it when people are happy And my wife looked at me And she goes This is your fault And I go

I said nothing like that I was only ever positive around them Yeah So he was young And I said Dude you're a metalhead He goes I'm not.

Yeah. And my wife is like, that's it, you are. And honestly, here's where the misunderstanding comes about me or somebody who is even considered a gatekeeper. What he meant is this phony bologna celebrating on TV is just,

I hate that shit. It's fake. And that's all he meant by, I hate when people are happy. He literally, so you kind of have to look and look a little bit deeper into what somebody is mean.

before just saying this band sucks that band sucks I don't like to listen to it but it doesn't bother me to the point that I'm like pissed off about it like that guy's a pose or like

I don't care what another guy listens to but if they're going to force it on me I will continue to secretly inch the volume down and change the subject and I'm quite good at misdirection nice dude I was curious, Paul, how did you, which is kind of cool as we get older, our opinions change on other people. It is kind of cool to hear you and hear John talk possibly about each other.

I was curious. I was curious how you and John met from an incantation. We met, we used to go to this mutual, this club streets in New Rochelle, New York. We met there. Okay. And I want to say I met Will for Mortician there in 1987. Oh, shit. We've been friends ever since.

I had a Hellhammer jacket, and he was like, holy shit, nobody knows about this band. Yeah. So it was kind of like new, no internet, just like tape trading. Yeah. And we met there. Yeah. Is that, who's that, emulation? Mm-hmm.

Yeah. We were probably most likely both at that show. Really? Yeah. We had a lot of shows together. 1988 so I'm three years old I think that's cool that uh John was talking like positively so as you get older you you realize like you have to be a little bit more coachable yeah yeah you know what I mean so like I'm setting my ways of certain things but I'm like open to others yeah if that makes sense so like I don't like triggers on on the drums. I'd rather have a misfire of my foot than. You love that fucking punching back sound.

Yeah, I like it. It sounds like it. Punching back. Yeah, I like that. Yeah. And then another thing is like my pedals are set up where there's a lot of throw. In fact, last night I noticed, like, I'm getting air on my leg from the throw. Like, I have to have a certain stump. Yeah. Um And, uh

You know That's It just seems more It seems like it It hits harder When I have that It's fucking hits dude Thanks man

And also all of my snare hits Believe it or not Are like all of the snare hits Are rim shots Mm So It's how it's how you get that sound Yeah

Whoever mixed it or did your That EP I was like this is like It sounds great. Thanks. So that's another thing. Like I wanted a more, not cleaner, but a modern sound, but still capturing our feeling. Yeah, yeah.

That's a hard line to hit, dude. It's hard. It's almost impossible. You don't want the polished sound, but you want it to sound really, really good. But you don't want your sound. Yeah, for sure. And honestly, the old stuff that people worship, the sound isn't that great for me. Like we did the best we could with what we had back then.

Yeah. It wasn't like, let's make this as raw as possible. I was like, you know, listen to cassettes on the way home going, this sounds like dog shit. And somebody else would go, but it's raw. Yeah, but it sounds really good. And I'm like, all right. Yeah.

I mean, no, I'm not hating on our old stuff at all. But like back to like the first, like, let's say like bathery. if he was around today he'd be using all the new methods like the return is my favorite one from Bathory and that album he did the best he could with what he had

so now you got people going let's copy that shitty sound so we could be like them that's where that's more what I'm yeah it goes back to it yeah that's more what I'm talking about and I kind of stress that and sometimes I can't explain what I'm thinking so good

today I'm doing pretty damn good yeah yeah it is hard to have to process your thoughts and make it into like to say it right it is yeah for sure I'm still I'm still learning that that is crazy so people listen to this and just flat out copy copy to sound but literally to know what why why did they make it sound that way right right right got it and I

I guarantee, like, with every fiber of my being that that was not intentional. And nobody's ever, like, it's never perfect. But I'll tell you with our EP on the Hell's Headbangers, it's very damn close to how I envisioned it. In fact, it's probably dead on. Congrats. It's a big moment. Yeah. And that's never really happened before.

So I'm like, am I just accepting it? Is it garbage? No, I love it. it the cover everything was planned out we put a lot of work into it good yeah i went to 25 years yeah i know that it takes a long time man it does so you play every day i try to yeah yeah yeah sometimes i'll skip a day i'm like why did i why i not play it i feel weird and then when i don't play i feel weird it's yeah it's like it's just something's missing something like like the day like you know days i today are very important you know i'm i'm gonna talk to you and i'm gonna be

immensely on it, so I'll, I walk in here, I'm, sit down and play. Yeah. And something gets, with us sounding to woo-woo, something gets opened, like, I don't know, like more. It's us. I'm more open. Yeah, for sure. Throughout the whole day, I'm more focused.

I don't know what the fuck it is. It's got to sit down on and play. You're probably more comfortable, too. Totally. Oh, shit, I wrote a riff. Okay, cool. And then that kind of goes throughout the whole day. 100%.

Yeah. So, yeah, I guess, I guess you put it the right way. I'm more me. Yeah. And you have to be. And don't ask, especially who cares what I think. A lot of people are asking me, what do you think about this? What should I do?

And I'm like, what do you think? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, what do you think? What's the sound? Yeah, I guess you, I'm learning as a good older, there's certain thoughts you have and certain feelings that are actually, to you, it's kind of common sense, but a lot of people is not. You know, doing having your own vision and is going forward. I guess for me it seems like normal,

but I guess for a lot of people, like they need, they need like permission. Yeah, good point. So, and they don't know why they need permission either. So it's not really their fault. I'm just saying don't ask for permission. Do your research and be sincere. Yeah.

That's like kind of the point of our anybody's band, right? Is to be like yourself and the best of yourself. Yeah. But that's true. They might not know. it is common sense to us, but they might not know it yet. Yeah. But they'll get there.

And so them not knowing it is not super annoying to me. It's just that it's very obvious to me that they don't know it. It's not something I go around like, you know, like Jay Dogg's asking me, this guy, is this guy a poser? This guy's a poser. Shout out of Jay Dog. Who cares what they do. But yeah, they probably are, you know? I'm sure, which is actually why I asked you earlier,

I'm pretty sure I might be on that list. No, don't ask. Don't ask. No. Just own it. I'm on it. I'm a new metal kid. Yeah, right on.

That's it. And there's, I love, I love what I love, and I don't know what I don't know. Fair enough. Yeah, it's just, I love, uh. So, uh, when we played, uh, j dogs fast, uh, which was great, by the way. Sick. Dead by Dogfest.

He had it set up in such a way that was very comfortable for all the bands, and all the bands sounded different, and I appreciate that. Nice. And some guy came up to me, he goes, I really want you to meet my wife. She does not like Provenautica, and I'm like, let's go. Yeah. So I go, why don't you like it? She goes, it's like too abrasive for my ears.

And I go, well, that's great. Yes. And then I need it. named a couple of other bands and that were similar to us. I go, do you like them? She goes, absolutely not. I go, well, that's perfect then. You know what I mean?

Like, if somebody liked our style and liked all the other bands and our quote unquote family but didn't like us, that's when I would be like a little bit more upset and take it personally. I mean, you know, you got to have thick skin. Oh, you got, yeah, you got to know who you are and do you need to know who you are and you got to have some thick skin. You have to. I don't want to have it.

I have to have it. Dude, you said it right. It's like, you don't have my choice, dude. No. Either either get the skin or feel like, feel like a fucking pussy all day. All day. I know. Yeah.

It's cool. It's cool. Someone could say anything about you or your music. And a lot of, a lot of life cliches just make sense. Oh, you know, like be yourself and don't give a fuck what anyone thinks. All these cliches. But once it clicks inside your. fucking body. Oh, yeah.

That's true. Like who? Yeah. Who cares, but anyone thinks? So the other thing I'll say, there he is. I'll say that Shout out to Justin, man. Yeah, hell yeah. I'll say that another thing is like, we, I like to sign stuff for people

and take pictures with people. It's like not annoying. Yeah. And not everybody does that. I've gotten flak before. They're like, why are you signing stuff for really? Fucking people. Yeah. I have. And I'm like, that guy's got, that's not black metal dude. That guy's got the original like weeping in heaven from 1991.

I know it's an original. I'm looking at the cover. It's all like priest and shit. How could I not do that? That guy really likes our shit and he's not just kind of goofing on it. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that, I don't know how you are with this.

Uh-oh. Um, I don't know how you are with this, but, uh, For a while, at least at the beginning, I was thinking, is this person making fun of me or do they really like it? I don't know if you've ever had that thought, but I have. And I kind of, when I talk to another band that I dig, I want to make sure to come across that I'm sincere,

like, I really dig your shit. I'm not just saying that because there's people that like what we do that are around us. play different style metal than us, but we still could see eye to eye and they still like that I'm doing what I'm doing. You know what I mean? Yeah. So... That's sick.

I like appreciate that when somebody's like, yo, I've seen you a couple times. It's great. They don't, like, I don't know why I like it, but I like it. And that is like a win for me. They don't have to necessarily know our whole catalog and stuff. That's fine. You know what I'm saying?

Like they like it, they dig it. Like we did Sacramento a couple nights ago, and somebody brought their boss to the show. And then the guy comes up to me, he's like, dude, that was sick. I love that. He goes, I've heard metal in the car because so-and-so plays it,

but I'm like, whatever, I'm not a metalhead. He's like, I'm like weirdly obsessed with the choices you guys made, like changes and stuff. Some of the stuff went on for a while, and some of it switched up different drumbeat, same guitar riff, I don't know.

Yeah. So we do have this like certain structure in writing where a lot of people were like, we can't really do that part that long. And I'm like, yes, we can. That's like, it's none

of anybody's business what we do. And I still have that like punk mentality of this is our shit. And we don't care who likes it or doesn't like it. Mm-hmm. You know. But the other side of that is when I did the new one, Reiths and Dead Angels,

we did what we most like, but there was, in the back of my head during this one, the most in particular, I don't want to disappoint the people that like Profanautica and like our formula. Yeah. So that this one was the only one that I,

because every, all the other ones, I'm like, This is our shit. This time I was like, I hope people like it. And what I mean by that is like the people that are in our family that like us and understand us, I hope they dig it. Yeah. So I've been getting a lot of, dude, play more new shit. Whoa. And I'm like, nobody's ever said those words out loud to anybody.

So I was like, that means a lot to me. That's fucking badass, man. Yeah. I mean, you definitely, I was going to ask you about the artwork too. Like your choice of covers. Yeah. It's, I can't even put a word to it. Okay.

It's just evil. Thank you. So that, uh, what is that cover, dude? So that's just like, if you zoom in, it's just abomination hammer. Shout out to him from Canada. He did the art. Uh, when I work with these artists, everything's sketched out and planned. So I do not give them any leeway at all.

They can't add their own touches into it. It's like, I'm paying you. exactly what I want. Okay, so you approach him with, with a vision. Always. Always. There was one artist that I can't name that's really good, but he says, I get to pick. And I'm like, no way. Yeah. Life doesn't work like that. So what I will say is, I picked you to do my vision in your style of painting. Like that guy's got different style brush drawings. And, you, than the next guy. And he does like, he works with muted colors a little bit more than somebody else,

all oil on canvas. Oh, okay. So I sense, I go, cool if I send you a sketch, they go, yep. And they will come back at me, yo, I added your angel on top of these poles because it just fit good or not. And I'm like, perfect. So I'm like coachable in that way. Oh, yeah, yeah.

I see. See that? And I go, they drew it and I go, just lop the heads right off and put them on the floor. And he goes, done. Oh, my goodness. Like, that's my decision making. Yeah, it makes sense that you actually gave him a sketch because you, because you've done artwork for other bands, right? I have.

Yeah, okay. I have. Nothing great. Like, I'm not highly skilled, although people seem to like it. That's another case where I'm like, are they goofing on me? Yeah. But they're like, there's something about those black and white drawings with those little, little dots that I dig. Yeah. So I'm like, all right, if you really like it, then thank you.

That's sick. Yeah. What is a couple more questions, Paul. What do you think of, what does your wife think about not, not, not your band, but, but the beliefs with your band? Oh, 100% behind. Okay. That the religion is a business and should be treated as such. and it's 100% behind everybody in my family does. Really? Yeah. And it's kind of funny before my mom passed away. Did I do that? That's Psycho?

Great band from Boston. Psycho? Yeah. I did do that. Oh, this is you? Nice. I did do that. Yeah.

Awesome band. Like way ahead of their time from Boston. Oh, okay. So shout out to Charlie Infection. When did this come out? I'm not sure. Was it early 2000s? When was that?

I don't know, but... Jay appointed... 2010? Oh, wow, okay. All right, fair enough. Sick. So, um... Did they cover a Gigi...

Oh, yeah, they played with Gigi on one of the albums. Oh, shit. They were the backup band for him. Oh, wow. I didn't know that. So it's Psycho? Yeah. Oh, I...

Yeah, from Boston. When did a Gigi pass? was it 91? I don't know. It was a while ago, huh? Yeah. Did you ever get to see him? I didn't, but I was like, we were working on a project together.

You know about that, right? No. Oh. Can I get another water? Please. Is that possible? Because this is, uh, was it? Oh, 93.

Okay. So I'll first answer that your question that when, before my mom passed away. She did say Yeah, come on. Thanks. Thanks, man. She did say, yeah, I'm sorry,

I busted your balls so much about religion. Like, it is a business. You were right this whole time. And I'm like, really? But she goes, but, you know, you did it in such an immature, obnoxious, blasphemous way. Yeah, of course.

Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Right. So let's talk about this guy. Please. Is his name really that? It was, yeah.

Jesus Christ, Alan? I didn't know that. So my story's not great about him. I'm not like, we didn't end on good terms. As you will want. I have a thing about artist. I tell people like, because sometimes you always say,

oh, they're a great guy. Oh, she's really cool. I'm like, I don't care. If you tell me a story where they're an asshole, just is cool. Yeah, for sure. Within a limit, though. People are like attacking people or

sure, you know. Maybe that's in line. Yeah, so here's what happened. Live fast die. Wow. I want to say it was 87. I wrote him a letter. He was in Vermont, I think, or New Hampshire. Yeah. And then I said, yo, can I order this,

these tapes? Yeah. And he said yes. And I ordered some stuff from him. He sent it. And then I got a hold of his phone number. How should find his phone number? through tape trading friend of mine okay yeah so i kind of told this story here but um it escalated to me calling him yeah and uh asking him i need this that and every flyer you have and he's like fine

like he would be so like yelling on the phone like he was the real deal and then uh i go i'm mailing you my address so i don't have to you don't have to write it down you know what i mean because he wasn't the kind of dude you could be like so like let's put it this so if he was alive today and somebody just gave him a phone every day he would just throw it in the garbage he's like i'm not texting it's stupid he would just throw it in the ocean of the garbage if he had yeah so i liked his attitude and i liked that like that like dirty punk but i was influenced more by his attitude than anything which i uh it just like struck me i like this yeah So I started calling him and I was like, dude, let's do, I want to do a backup band.

Malcolm, my guy from Connecticut, ran a store. And he goes, I'll mention it to him and see what he says. And he's like, he's in because I said, Malcolm, we got to do a, this was 89. We got to do a Gigi project, but heavier. like more crossed punk so essentially like what I wanted back then was

I wanted like more of a like a pro bonautica feel to it but punk and him singing with that kind of dirty bass in production and that would have been crazy it would have been like monumental and so I sent them lyrics and I called them and I go what do you think and he goes

I don't know how you're coming up with this but this shit's good and I go, thanks. It's all naturally goes, your lyrics are fucking sick. Wow. And I go, that's great. I'm super psyched.

So we recorded, I think, four or five songs, and he came to New York to sing on it, and he busted the microphone. This is a weird story because I couldn't be there

when he was singing. I was injured at the time. So Malcolm goes, I got the track. we'll meet with him. Yeah. And he's going to sing and he kept blowing it off

and blowing it off. And he never did. He smashed the microphone. So they got him another one. He smashed it. He was just, you couldn't, he was the type of guy that you couldn't direct at all.

So you'd have to trick him into directing him. You know what I mean? Like he wouldn't cooperate in the least. So I'm like, you know, Malcolm's like, I pushed to the point that he could have gotten violent with me. He goes, I'll come back and do it, and he didn't. But we didn't have a nice phone call the last time I talked to him. Because I go, the recording's done.

You're up. And he goes, put some Hank Williams, senior on that, too. And I go, dude, what the fuck are you talking about? I said, the recording's done. And I flip my lid in the kitchen. I remember my mom was in the kitchen, true story. I slammed the phone down and she goes, God, who the hell was that?

Why are you yelling at that dude? And I go, it would take me like two days to explain who that was. It was so brutal. But so here's my story and I'm going to stick to it, okay? He couldn't cut it and he blew it off

under the guise of like just being uncooperative and shit. And I'm going on record. I'm sorry to disappoint all the like Gigi fanatics. but he couldn't do it. It would have been monumental, man. Totally monumental. With me kind of like controlling it, the lyrics and the art,

it would have been so sick. And I wanted that so bad to the point that like when somebody brings it up like in the car, like what was that, what were those talks like? I get a little bit. You just get this fucking deep anger. Yeah. Totally.

That's one of my like biggest regrets. that. And I tried, though. I tried hard. I'm like, if this happens. So here's the main problem with us, too. Okay. The main problem was that we were supposed to play two gigs, one in New York, and then somewhere else, I forget, maybe it was Connecticut. Yeah. And then during those, that short little run of two gigs, he was going to do vocals on our seven-inch on the four track, right? Yeah. So he shows up to the gigs with another backup band. And I, on the phone, because back then he would have killed me, but on the phone, I said,

what is your fucking problem showing up to our gig with another backup band? And I'm like, that's like I finally get a date with the hottest girl that I've been like after for years. But I bring another date with me to that date. I go, why the fuck would you do that? And I fucking, I won, let's put it that way. We battled on the phone and he lost. But that was just not cool. You don't do that.

You know what I mean? Like, what if you're recording in the studio and your band shows up and you're like, yo, meet so-and-so, he's ripping drums today. Oh, yeah, we fucking. It wouldn't be good. Yeah. So, and you wouldn't do that. No.

You know what I mean? And I wouldn't do that. that. So that's kind of what happened with us. And it turned out, so I hear, I don't know if the person of all is trying to make me feel better, but he did, before he passed away, he apologized to our mutual friend and said that they were his ride and he got caught, he double booked. And it like bit him in the ass. And he

didn't apologize to me. So. Well, at least he got the stamp, though. Yeah. He loved those lyrics. He goes, I don't know how you're coming up with these, but these are fucking good. Keep sending them. And then he's like, goodbye and just slam the phone down.

You know what I mean? So he was like uncontrollable for real. I will say that when I called him, and he used to hate this, that he'd pick up the phone and be like, hello, like in this loud, like. alcohol-fueled voice. Hello. And I'd go, hey, it's me. And he used to hate that. He's like, who's me?

I'm like, it's Paul from Connecticut, the drummer. And he's like, all right, what's up? And then he was cool and he's like, don't do this and do that. And I'm like, this. I remember, like, you're talking about like a half an hour of me going, this is how it's going to sound.

This is our vision. It's going to be like what you. This is like what he kind of was like that around that age when I made contact with him. Wow. So, like, as you, you know, if you go back and watch this video, he's, he's like, you know, communicating and talking. He was always very cool on the phone. And he always would send me shit that I requested, like, a live tape.

I'm trying to get a copy of this. Yeah. It would just show up in my mailbox. Really? Yeah. And it was dope. It was awesome. And he would send extra shit.

And I would always, I mean, I was a kid, but I looked at, like, some of the packages cost, like, six and seven. $7 to send and I know he didn't have that. Wow. He did not have that money to send packages out like that. He just loves any records. He loved that we really liked it and we're again, going back to that word, sincere about liking it. Yeah.

You know, he could tell that I was into it and I like appreciated his style of like no fuck's given. Yeah. And like maybe actually that like, like, his attitude really influenced me, and that might not be a great thing. Like to say that G.G. Allen's one of my heroes. But, you know, he was cool with me up until that stuff. And there's a new book coming out.

It's like a tell-all of a long interview with me. Really? Yeah, with about, you know, and I kind of blasted him like I did. Like, he couldn't do it. He couldn't caught it. Yeah. And he, I've seen it a million times. That was his way of getting out of the project.

You know what I mean? And I kind of believe that. It's not going to make me popular, you know, the Gigi fanatics hearing that. But it's true. How old were you when you were communicating on the phone doing the, uh, doing the songs? Uh, 18 and 19. Yeah, you're a young, dude. Yeah.

Fuck. But I was like, dude, I know. what I want to do. I had that vision. You always had it. Yeah, I did. And with him on vocals and, like, us as a backup band,

would have been sick. That would have been, and monumental. That would have been monumental. Yeah. So that's my story about him. Also, a lot of, also,

Paul, a lot of bad luck, man. That didn't go through. Your first record didn't go through. Is it such a shame that you had the vision? I know. And at the fucking magic era.

Totally. So. I'm sorry, man. That's all right. I mean, so here's what I'll say. I'll be positive about this, okay? If stuff like that happens, you can't quit and push through. Yeah.

You got to push through rather. Like you can't just stop and be like, you know what? This is not happening. It's not worth all my time and energy. You could take a step back and take a little break, but you can't quit. And that's what I did. And that's when, you know, you see there was like a long space. A nine year high age.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what I did. I was like kind of beaten down. Yeah. After that. And like again, no excuse, but I was a kid. I didn't know how to handle that.

And I know now that that's a mistake. So what I'll tell like the young people that are asking me stuff is if you hit these like blockades, go around them or boss through them. And it might take a little bit. But don't quit. You're just going to be upset later on. that you should have pushed harder. Just fucking keep going.

Yeah, and I did not. I'm admitting it, I didn't. I didn't know how to handle that back then as a kid, you know. Wow. Well, at least now you're getting like a second chance. Yeah, second chance. And I've said, and I believe this, we're just coming into our prime.

Like, we just started, like, laser focus on this stuff. And the good thing I'll say is like, I'm proud of the stuff to where, If somebody doesn't like it, I don't care. You know what I mean? I'm not but her. Who cares? Who cares, man?

Yeah, we're doing it for us. Fuck him, dude. I got one last question. Yeah. Given the themes of your band, what, what are your beliefs? I mean, like, as far as, like, as far as like the afterlife. Oh, God. Do you have them?

Yes. Okay. I could share it real real quick. Go ahead. Okay. I believe that we're, I definitely believe that we're channeling dead people. Maybe like the guitar players, artists that came from before.

I don't believe that my riffs are mine. Really? I believe maybe I just happen to be in the area. It's me, but maybe someone else is channeling there. And I believe when you die, there's you're you're dispersed into energy and you kind of help out like all all the psychos people that are there fucking hours trying to write the fucking song really someone those are those those those those are those those are the ones you help and that's to me that's what god is okay so

i definitely believe there's the afterlife okay fair enough uh the heaven and hell thing is happening right now you know what i mean that's not after we die it's now it's right now yeah uh the energy thing that's fine, but my energy refuses to help guitar players with riffs. That's some poser shit. Like, I want my energy. Like, it's going to be doing other things. Yeah. But that's fine.

Yeah, it just, it's just going to be doing downbeats. Yeah. Yeah. Like, just hard, monotonous black death metal stripped down. Because if I was a kid and liked the pro bonovenom. And then they came out with some like bullshit. I'd be so pissed off. Yeah.

And I think I was so critical as a young kid that that's why I'm like, I pay close attention to that. Yeah. I mean, all right. So where could my energy go? Maybe people in the comments could leave it. But all right, my energy could go to like helping like people in a tea plantation maybe. or like maybe something for the greater good. If somebody's like,

yo, this is a positive thing we're doing, we're going to borrow your energy. But like, all right, cool. Cool. Yeah. Okay, so you do believe there's some kind of afterlife?

Sure. Okay. At least that. Interesting. Okay. Right? So I'll just, not to go off on another tangent,

but it's a most common question is, do you believe in God? Yes. And the answer is, there's got to be a creator for sure but I don't know who or what it is

and either do you so shut the fuck up about those like yeah no one knows they don't no one knows and it's a long rabbit hole it's is it concerning yeah if you let it get

in your head yeah that's why we have to do do this now but concerning past lives if there are such a thing then this is my first one because I don't remember shit or have skills from my past one. Okay, so there is some kind of a creator.

Sick. Sure. I think. Yeah. And no one knows. I think there's like there's big, big questions. No one knows what happens after you die. I don't think we'll ever know how the world truly goes around, whether it's government,

money, et cetera. I also never know where music comes from Okay, how about this? How about the human heartbeat drums first instrument? Agreed. Okay?

Yeah, agree. All right, cool. Because, I mean, if you have primal beans, they're fucking banging on shit. Yeah, for sure. The drumstick was a weapon back then. Yeah. It probably was, actually.

Yeah, right? I mean, like, or, yeah, like, or they would use a bone or a stick or whatever they had to do just not laptop bullshit but like back then the cavemen straight hard like pounding that's that's on the downbeat no yeah yeah right they definitely hit the snare first they do snare and hi-hat is first but so I don't know if this is cool or not cool but um if somebody wants like if somebody's just like let's say they like hard rock They like a little bit of metal, but they're not sure what we're talking about. Haunting the chapel from Slayer, Dave Lombardo, he does an example of both the pushing and pulling drum beats.

Okay. It's very clear on that song specifically that he does both styles. Interesting. So snare and high hat first, but he'll also, when he kicks it up a notch, he'll do the normal what they call like a thrash beat or what we used to call. Wow. So this song specifically is what people need. Yeah.

Need to check out. That's the pounding. Pounding, okay. Right? That's the starting snare and a high hat. There it is. Oh, yeah, yeah. Bass drum first on that.

Yeah, put it all in one song. Who cares? Yeah. That's what music is supposed to be. Yeah. Sick. Totally. Hey Paul, did I miss anything?

Is there anything about your history that you went out there? I don't think so. I think we covered it like a basic. Yeah. So I could come back at a later date and we could cover stuff if you're interested if I'm ever in the area. Yes, please. The people, I would say, should do their homework and research more. I think that definitely inspired me to do a little bit more research.

You don't have to know this guy. I'm not talking about this guy came from this band and all that stuff, like stuff on metal archives. Yeah. Or this band came before this band. But how about a little bit of like, this is the beginning of the genre? This is where we are now. Like it or not like it, it kind of is what happened.

That's all I'm saying. Like a little bit of history. Okay. So more so the history. Yeah. And I mean like the people that like new metal like it. And it's nobody's business, but theirs what they like. I just got the stamp from Paul so everyone can fuck off.

They can. They can. Just don't play it in the car. Like if we're riding somewhere. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'll turn that down like immediately. All right, cool. Oh, yeah, Paul.

Thank you. Where can people find you guys? Prophanautic official Instagram. Instagram, okay. Yeah. Yeah, we'll put it in the description and stuff. Okay. Right on.

Thanks, man. Pleasure. Thanks for having. Cool, thank you. All right, one. That's it. Later.