Garza Podcast - 191 - NIGHT VERSES | Nick DePirro: 8 String Riffs, Guitar Rig & Tuning Secrets

Episode Date: July 28, 2025

Garza sits down in-person with Nick DePirro. Guitar player for the instrumental band NIGHT VERSES & HEADCAVE. Catch them on their European tour in September! https://instagram.com/nightversesSPONSORS:Sweetwater - https://imp.i114863.net/rnrmVBDistroKid - https://distrokid.com/vip/garza 30% OFF!CHAPTERS:00:00 - R.I.P. Ozzy 04:34 - Pedalboard Evolution10:35 - Desert Island Pedals13:29 - First Guitars & Amps17:12 - Playing with Better Musicians18:27 - Tool25:23 - How Night Verses Met30:24 - Doomsday & Alien Conspiracies35:04 - Reddit Forums37:30 - Open Tunings47:40 - Minor Scale Music49:13 - Learning Guitar // Songwriting52:15 - Theory & Technique54:30 - Drop C & Alt Tunings57:38 - Guitar Rig Demo1:16:51 - Delay Pedals1:19:26 - Building a Pedalboard1:20:13 - Pedals vs Modelers1:22:53 - Whammy Pedal1:24:32 - Riff: Arrival1:27:20 - Riff: Freestyle Jam1:32:30 - Twitch Stream Songwriting1:36:04 - Headcave // My Ticket Home1:42:30 - Inspiration1:43:50 - Drinking on Tour1:46:10 - Recording with Ross Robinson2:17:31 - Brandon Boyd2:25:17 - Riff: Rose Wire2:27:05 - Songwriting2:33:54 - Hover EP & Music Video2:37:11 - Favorite Riffs2:46:33 - Riff: Whammy Pedal Jam2:48:04 - One Guitar Instrumental Band2:56:35 - Trusting Your Band

Nick, thank you for being here, man. Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it, dude. From a night versus, I didn't know that you were local. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I grew up in Fulerton, California, so like Orange County. Orange County area. Wow, so you're like right here.

Yeah, yeah, I've always been around here. All of us, actually, all three of us grew up in Fulerton. Crazy. Yeah. So part of downtown was probably your area. Yeah, DTF. No, slide bar. Slide bar, definitely.

We played there a few times, been to a few shows there. Yeah, it was a cool place to watch those, too. I was kind of bummed that it's not really there anymore, right? Then they're like something, yeah. I think right now it's been a year. I heard he sold it. Oh, okay. The dude from Litt, I'm pretty sure you sold it.

Yeah, I've seen a, I see, I saw a Wilhelm scream there, which was awesome. The flatliners between the birding me and like on earth, I think I saw all there. Nice. Yeah, cool show for like a small place. That little room fits like 50 people. people maybe. Yeah, it doesn't seem like that much. That's what it was so sick about it. And playing there was cool for that same reason. Just like the energy is insane when it's that small. I wonder how he got a like for some ways of bands just would just play there like big ones.

Like a like a good secret show spot. Yeah, they'll have like secret shows there. I think Nam too. When Nam was around that was a spot where bands could set up like a quick like low key show or whatever like whoever's in the area can come make it if you can first come first serve kind of thing. Yeah. That's all pretty cool. Yeah, it's nuts dude. So real. Real quick, I kind of want to dedicate this episode to Ozzy because this happened yesterday. Yeah. And a guy that, it's fair when someone passes away and literally it's the entire genre. An entire genre wouldn't even exist.

For sure. You know, especially doing research on all these bands or older or younger. It kind of one kind of commonality was Sabbath, you know, me doing all the research and my called this is really a whole not subgenre but a whole genre of music wouldn't even exist it is crazy i watched the the show that the black sabbath show i forget with the title of it was but with all that uh my dad got it and i watched it at his house and nice it's definitely crazy to see and think about how many bands like they were like the top and just everything just trickled after them like even metallica being like you know massive it's crazy that they even like supported yeah and they still

look up to them is like that was like why we do this kind of thing and uh you definitely learn just watching that just like the impact that black stuff i thought a goat's goat yeah they are like the goats are the goats definitely man so fucking sad we had a you have parkinson's right yeah i think so that's like how old j to be exactly so people at uh i think she was 76 that's a live dude oh yeah and we share the same birthday oh crazy december third uh uh 1948 man he hit he hit the 40s man wow I mean can you go out in a better way yeah there's not many people there and get to live the life that that dude did that's for sure like you play the show and all these bands that look up to you play it and then you

and then you passed away two weeks later yeah that's crazy did you guys ever get to play ospest no that was right before our era right right before it dude I wish I got to go to that even I never got to even see it You didn't even see it? How old are you? 37. Okay. Well, I'm 39, so you're not too far off.

Yeah, yeah. I should have been able to. And so many bands I grew up listening to play that fest. That would have been like the epitome of the music I liked at the time. Yeah, you would definitely be going to like Glenn Helen.

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I wish I regret it. I regret it for sure. That's definitely one fest I look back. I'm like, damn, I miss that one. I mean, did you go to any of the Nautfest? I've been to Knopfest. I think there is one called Smokeout or something like that.

Smoke out. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I try. I mean, if there's bands I want to see on these things, I always try to, like, get out there. But yeah, I don't know. Like that whole, like, kind of new metal wave was, like, what I was really into at the time. And a lot of those bands played that stuff.

So, like, that would have been something I would have liked to see. Yeah. Awesome. Well, Nick, also, thank you for brain. This might be one of the biggest rigs I'd be. This is, and my, I feel kind of insecure right now because I have my, I have my little quad here in the corner, and you just brought this freaking beast of a rig. You're, you're actually doing what I kind of see myself doing in the future where I want to combine the pedal board. Yeah.

With the, uh, you have Axex, uh, three, correct? Yeah. Three. So I have the quiet. I want to have like a little nice little, because, you know, like the, there's like one pedal will do that perfectly. Yeah. It's cool to have both. I mean, you have, obviously that can, the quad is capable of many things as well.

And like having a modeler like that or the fractal, like there's a lot, you can do just in that alone. But having pedals and having the combination, like there's certain things that I feel like having it in front of you and you can kind of see the knobs and like tweak yourself. Totally. Either on the fly or like, you know, whatever. Totally. And I don't know. I've always just kind of liked having pedals. And live I have adjusted slightly recently to having like a few.

less just the essentials. Yeah. Just because like when you're touring a lot and you have a lot of movement and stuff like that throughout, you know, travel, like stuff gets kind of tweaked and moved around and like, sure. You never know what could, what guarantees you have with a board like this. So I've tamed it down a little bit, but in an ideal world, I would have this and like exactly what I have right now all the time and have a duplicate of this or something to where if something

happening and just quickly swap the entire rig. Yeah, you can't have to have a B rig. Yeah. It's also super heavy. So that's like carrying it around. Yeah. Hey, Jeep, pull up one of the first photos I sent you. So you, uh, yeah, so I found this picture.

Oh, man. Yeah. That was the early, very early days of building a bellboard version. So dude, you've been doing crazy pedal boards since like the start. Because you started playing when you were 13, right? Yeah, yeah, pretty much. And back then I was just kind of figuring out like, I guess, what I wanted to do still. So at that time I was very minimal with the pedals.

I would have like a tuner, maybe a distortion or something like that, like a metal zone back then. Yeah. And it wasn't until we had like a couple phases of a band. Like we had our high school band, which was mostly just, you know, heavy riffs and I guess scream out would be the genre or whatever. And at that time I wasn't really using too many effects, but once that band ended, then I became the only guitar player.

Yeah. to kind of realizing like I needed to fill out my sound a bit more and like add a little bit more nuance to what I was doing. And I was also getting influenced by more, I guess like Prague year, like getting more into Mars Volta, more into, I mean, I was already in the tool, but like kind of understanding more of the bands I grew up on and like how they got their sounds. And I started incorporating delays and like more kind of a trippier stuff. I got a whammy pedal, which was like game changer. What was your first pedal? my first pedal I guess oh actually I had a corg I think it was a corg I don't remember the exact bottle but it was like a gray modeler and it was like a really early modeler a corg pedal yeah it was a cord pedal and it had a expression pedal on it I had no idea how to use it and like regrettably I man I was like it I want to say it was like a corg a something like it kind of looked like that the one at the expression pedal on the bottom it actually might have been that one not that I look at it.

with those oh yeah the gold one yeah the tone works that's it yeah that's exactly what that yeah that was your first that was my first uh oh you weren't fucking around i had the gates i didn't know i didn't know what i had though it's like my dad got me that because he's awesome and like always got me like anything i would like aspire to have and like that i just like stupidly i would just put it in front of my amp which was like a crate combo amp at the time and i was just thrown in front of that and i didn't realize that there was amp tones on top of amp tones so i was just running like an amp into an amp essentially. Oh yeah, yeah. And so it sounded crazy, but I didn't know back then. But like looking back, like I wish I still had that just because I'd be curious what it actually was trying to do.

Because I used it, I used the effects on it sometimes, like the wall or whatever with the expression, but yeah, I didn't really know what I had back then. And I didn't even know, like, it's crazy looking back, like how many things were kind of the early versions of like the fractal in the quad cortex. Like totally. It's kind of crazy. Like that stuff existed. So you were already drawn just to like just pedals and. Yeah. finding some weird tone trying to yeah I mean you know I was always like like Tool is kind of the first band I really got into that I feel like the guitars were doing more than normal stuff like there was more going on to his tone and that always made me interested actually yeah that that

that looks more for me I think that was the one I had um but yeah they I don't know I was always interested in that once I started getting better at guitar like how to incorporate more sounds to kind of manipulate the guitar into sounding weird like raging as a machine too Camarillo was a big reason why too. Like when you listen to their records, there's so many sounds that are not traditional guitar sounds, but they are. It's him being crazy and trying to like be a DJ on guitar

and like that kind of stuff. You know, I feel like I didn't understand when I was a little kid. Like I knew it sounded crazy, but I didn't know like why or what it was. And then as I got older and started playing guitar more and kind of understanding it, I would look back on that and be like, oh shit, like it's a whammy pedal like with two octaves up and he's like scratching or whatever.

He gets a little crazy sounds out of that. So I would say when I first got into actual pedals, not that, but when I was getting my own stuff, the Whammy was the first one I really like, I feel like was like the game changer pedal for me. That and going into a delay pedal. Like that combo is like the one where I was like,

oh shit, this is cool. Yeah, and the Whammy is still like your favorite pedal, right? I would say, yes. I would say if delay doesn't count as a pedal and it's just enough like just part of it then yeah the whammy is definitely if you okay if you were hey nick if you were going to go to an island oh yeah what what is your island pedal that's that i never thought of that question it would have to be delay like a delay pedal yeah oh you're not going to think the whammy i mean what's a whammy raw without any effects i don't know i feel like i would want

i feel like i would want some ambience like if i'm going to be on an island jamming by myself a desert island pedal it would be uh i think it would be a delay pedal it'll be uh or like a striman like uh what's the reverb blue sky is that it is oh yeah big sky big sky that shit's hot dude yeah like something just spaced out yeah that pedal uh so this is one of your desert island pedals huh that could be yeah i mean that's a reverb but that one is nice to play through you feel like you're in space with that one and i feel like any pedal that has that type of effect i would want that if i was gonna be out there yeah but then maybe your dammy isn't your favorite pedal well yeah they're too but they're so different it's hard to like if i just pick the whammy i feel like i would i would get over

it if it was just that pedal only but the combo of those two if i could pick two absolutely a whammy and a reverb or delay like 100% that would be the next one but uh yeah but the whammy's sick i mean there's nothing i feel like the whammy especially now i feel like a lot of bands are really using the whammy or like pitch shifting but yeah the whammy was like such a cool pedal to have especially early on in guitar playing because like you can just do so much with it and i feel like the octave shifting, like just even simply going up one octave, changes your rifts like crazy. And when you start blending that with more things,

like that's why in this board, I have it very early in the pedal chain because I want the whammy to be affected by, I want these effects to affect the whammy. So like I send this through all the rest of them. And I feel like, I mean, either combo works. Like actually putting at the end would be cool too if I had a second one to kind of like shift up all the delay trails

and all the like different things but you're crazy dude that's sick dude so you you even have like the like the signal chain down yeah well it matters a lot like i started learning kind of like each pedal you know affects the next so having like the order you know really think methodically of like how you want your effects to affect each other yeah um so i put anything that's like uh sort of similar to a guitar signal like a whammy or the synthesizer or um a wall or um a wall I would usually have a traditional wall pedal, but this auto law is pretty cool. And then the ricochet, which is basically like a cousin to the whammy, all of these pedals go into the modulation ones because I want all of those tones to be affected by everything else.

So that's kind of where my head's at with stuff. And then I do have fuzz and overdrives later in this chain because I don't always run those at the same time. So it's okay. But I also like the idea of some of these getting affected by the flage. but um but yeah that's kind of where my head's at with it well Nick you come a long way from your epiphone let's call starter pack so what uh so uh you got your first guitar at 13 it was like it was it was an epiphone uh less paul yeah and he had uh it was it was like it was like it was like

the cable kit it was like i've been his little amp right yep that's sick hey you know what yeah gee get up that get the ibane's amp up there dude do that ibane is it right here I think so. Dude, these amps were sick. They were sick. It kind of sounded like static. Yeah, it had. It was very high gain.

These little ads were sick. I think they were 10 watts. They were 10 watts. I used to jam with a drummer back in the day with that amp. Just blasted every knob just maxed out. And yeah, that was definitely a cool first starter amp, I would say. It's great. Yeah.

I used that for a while and then evolved into the crate. like I think I had like the 120 watt I don't know the title of it but like that crate was a mainstay for a minute and then yeah yeah so so that's that's your pack right yeah pretty much what was what was the color it was black and it was it was pretty sick I mean I used that guitar for a while um that was definitely yeah that's exactly that one uh I was stoked on it at the time that was like a really cool started guitar you were formed up with this one and I liked it because it didn't it wasn't like a strat it's like it was like a strat it was like a different, you know, beginner guitar.

Like I felt like it looked cooler than other guitar players I knew that had a guitar or whatever. And I used it for a long time. Yeah, I'm sure it exists somewhere amongst. I was going to ask the sad question. You probably don't have it anymore, huh? I gave it to my brother later on. I think he kind of took it over and I don't know where it ended up. Or maybe it just, I don't know, to be honest.

Yeah, I haven't seen it in a very long time. Dude, you got to get it back, man. Yeah. One of the biggest regrets I ever made was I sold my first Bender Strat. It was a marooned sotter kit. Oh, yeah. But it was a sick-ass strat, dude. That today would be awesome.

It'd be cool to have. No idea where it is. My first, like, main guitar, like my, like, professional guitar, I do still have. That was a PRS, and I keep that at my parents' house and, like, my dad was onto it. That's like. Oh, good. Yeah, that one I wouldn't sell or anything, like, even in the worst times. What about your Schechter Scorpion?

Yeah, that was actually, I guess I'll give that. I'll step back. That was probably my first pro guitar. far as like ones actually was playing shows with um i loved that guitar it had the travel inlays though yeah that one the next one down there it had all the like crazy travels like yeah yeah i think the middle one there is it right here yep yeah that guitar oh man that was such to me when i got that yeah but back then it had like the scorpion tail to you and uh yeah that thing was that was an awesome guitar. I loved that guitar.

Should they have a scorpion on the headstock? They did. They had a little cutout. And it's funny because it's like it's sort of a cheesy-ish guitar now, but I thought that thing was sick back then. And yeah, I played a bunch of shows with it. And I don't know. I mean, Shectars are good. Like that back then, especially, like that was like a solid upgrade from the epiphone. And I jammed that thing all the time. What was the, what was the year range, you think? Yeah, that headstock right there. Oh, yeah. Super metal.

That would have been 2003. Okay. Ish, yeah. That was when I started jamming with other people more. Yeah, I'm a junior in high school. Yeah. And you're a freshman? I was like freshman sophomore, yeah.

Okay, nice. Yeah. Yeah. So you're a freshman and you're just already fucking rocking, dude. I was trying. I was at, what was cool back then is like I had other friends that were a lot better than me, like at guitar and like drums. and stuff. So I always wanted to like get as good as them and like I would try to learn what they were learning or try to jam with them and just kind of force myself, uh, force myself into situations where

I was definitely the worst, but like because of that I would get better just by being around better people. Um, dude, there's a, there's a magic to that. Like I like, because I was in a very similar thing as you. Like you kind of accept way everyone around me is better. Yeah. So I got to practice or do or bring something new, new to the taste. because everyone around you is sicker yeah but there's like a match to that especially when you're young for sure and i feel like that's like kind of a i don't know it was very important back then and especially like i feel like now it's probably a lot harder for people because like the bedroom artist has become such a like main thing like everyone can just be their own band alone true but i think growing up being

able to play with so many people really helped me kind of identify like what i really wanted to do and like what yeah i guess my sound would you know eventually become and like stuff like that and just even going to shows the people and getting the influence from different people. I feel like that was a big part of the early stages of guitar playing for me. Yeah. How old, how are you when you're going to your first shows? Because I, when they're first shows you saw, your, your dad took it, go see Tool, correct? Oh, yeah. That was my first show. Oh, what was the first one? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that was a King Crimson opening for Tool in San Diego. That's heavy. It was so sick. And we had like a good, like, seat situation. I got to see like, it was awesome. And, uh,

it was also kind of like overwhelming in a way like when you're that young and like you're kind of seeing like such a big thing like it was kind of it was crazy but it definitely solidified like I was like oh this is awesome and I want to go to more like it was like so cool to see that did you did you did you see that and I have a idea in in your mind yet like oh I want to do this or or was that too early it was a little bit before that like I think maybe a year later or so I started actually wanting to like play guitar so it's been i probably crafted a little bit in my head about that but uh okay oh yeah i think that was it yeah i think so uh what's that mask that looks familiar um live in san diego august eight that's crazy yeah august eight in 15th 2000 was that was that was that

was that was that year that has to be yeah because they were they were on lateralis uh playing lateralis song and onima songs which was like those are my two favorite records so yeah and it's cool because like you know when you go to shows as a kid maybe you don't really like i don't know how i don't know if i speak for everybody but like i was i was like really into them at this time so i actually knew every song that they were playing which was awesome and i feel like it might have been uh i guess maybe there are other bands that that wouldn't have happened with as much but like i was super into tool back then and so that was like the perfect starting show for me that's it and they're my dad's favorite band too so my dad was like a big part of all the music I listened to in the early

stages nice yeah so it's probably uh against your will you're already you're hearing pink floyd it definitely heard some pink floyd radio head uh ISIS the band um what was this like a short run it seemed like a short run oh yeah it looks yeah i guess it was did you go to la or san diego just san diego oh you went to that one yeah which i looks like if that's yeah it looks like that was the last show of that tour maybe why would that be such a short run that's interesting i didn't even know they've always kind of done that huh do what dude nick what a full circle for you like how many years is that as as a cycle where like i mean you're pre high school at this point yeah and then oh you have to be in your 30s right and then and then night versus gets that euro tour with tool yeah that's you that's a freaking full circle man

it was and i had that realization one night watching them like after like i think they were like closing their set and I was standing in front of the stage like kind of just watching them play that's crazy yeah and in the arena and just being like dude like watching them play stink fist which is the song I heard forever growing up on k rock and just like through my dad obviously and just like seeing how they prank this uh seeing them play that song and just kind of looking around the arena and just everybody like just fully immersed in the song and like they're set sweet water when the band needs anything for a tour or winning something here for the podcast. Sweetwater is where we go. The other number one online retailer

for pro audio and music instruments. So if you need any music gear fast, click the link in the description below so they know you came from this podcast. That's Sweetwater, your number one place for pro audio instruments. I'm here to tell you about distro kid. The easiest way to get the music you or your band wrote on all streaming platforms. Get your songs onto iTunes, Spotify, Apple music, YouTube music, and more. Check it out at distrokid.com slash VIP slash Garza and get 30% off your membership. That's distrokid.com slash VIP slash Garza to get 30% off. Dude, what's what's going on here? at the last show

Justin Chancellor the bass player of tool and some of the crew and stuff hopped on stage and like basically like

walked around us in these crazy costumes and that was like their tour break it was pretty crazy because like I'm just like we're in years

and I'm just like focused on what I'm doing and out of the corner I like see some shit going on but like I don't want to mess up or anything so I'm just like

what and yeah watching the video is pretty funny they're just like he kind of comes on as a conductor and just walks around us and shit dude

What a dream. It was awesome. It probably doesn't even seem real. It doesn't. It legitimately feels like it just didn't happen, but it did and it was crazy. I'm like, yeah. You ever look back later, like years later, then you look back and like, man, I wish I was more present. I wish I kind of took in these moments more.

Honestly, in that one, I felt like I was pretty present. Because what happened was like the first like two shows or so, three shows, I was super nervous. and I was like in my head about all my like equipment working. Making sure like I was good. And like that was also the first time randomly that I was using in ears. Like I always just used stage monitors forever. And so like but I and it was also my first time with the fractal, the X effects. So like I'm fully like I'm on some like new stuff at like the biggest shows I'll probably ever play.

So like that situation there's a lot going on in my head. And like, uh, of course. So the first two, three shows I was very much focused on that. And like I didn't even really look up that much because like I. the crowd was just so big every night that like when it was dark in the room like you only kind of see who's in front a little bit yeah and then it would light up randomly and i'd just be like oh go back down but uh after that i kind of thought about it and i was like dude like i just need to just not worry about any of this shit like everything's been good it's fine and then at that point i mean i've been playing with night versus and eric and rally forever so more than a half your life man yeah straight up and like because of that it kind of just clicked with me that i was like i need to just know this and just be

comfortable like i we're all we're good like it's i'm not worried about it let go yeah like we're like i we have like i've been playing with them forever like we know these songs well like everything i'm tripping on there's nothing to worry about it's all good totally and uh then i started getting really excited to play and then it was like then i was looking up more and i was like embracing the the crowd and the energy of everything and it was a lot of fun and yeah there's something to playing arena is that it's just different it's way different it's way different and like the energy is different everyone's in seats and stuff so like that was different too but like having the like when you get a crowd cheer in an arena like after a song it's so loud and it's just big feeling

and like the the sound system is massive so everything you're doing is just huge it's it's it's really cool yeah i love that we got to do that i'm glad you guys got to experience that man yeah and what a journey you've been playing with those guys since you were 16 17 right yeah pretty much yeah we have had several bands together but it's always just been It's always been that, right? Yeah, the three of us with other people switching out pretty much. And yeah, it's cool. I mean, our high school band, Riley, who plays bass in that band, he was the other guitar player in that band.

And, you know, we just have written music together in so many different ways that, like, after that band, we did, well, I was called out. We had Freiblings folded our high school band. Then we did the sound archives after that. And the sound archives was the first time I went to be the only guitar player, and he switched the bass. And that was interesting because I think for him. him, like, he was also adjusting as a guitar player to a bass player. Yeah. And kind of finding, like, that place where, like, he's not just a guitar player playing bass.

Yeah. And that was cool to watch, too, like, him get better at that. And how our sound kind of, like, shifted into being the three of us really predominantly writing, like, music, just the three of us. So that was cool. How did you guys meet? We went to school, we went to junior high together. Junior high.

Yeah. So they're both a year or grade below me. And they were friends before I knew them. and then they had a little like band situation and then pretty much through other people I like met Eric drummer and then we kind of like just started jamming like I had a band at the time that uh needed a drummer so then I hit up Eric and he kind of jammed with us that became a band rally had another band and then you know things kind of happened and then we decided to just make our own band and that's what the first high school band we had was and that kind of just kept going after that I mean we had a lot in

common so it was kind of like easy to jam and like kind of figure out what we wanted to do like pretty quickly we all listen to the same shit pretty much it's it's a trip because you're that's your high school band you're playing some wacky shit dude yeah wacky that's cool it's definitely it's nice to i feel like a lot of people well i feel like i'm very grateful that i've had the opportunity to do that because like we spent so many years just writing at eric's parents house like just in the upstairs like whereas drum kit was set up eventually just became our practice room and we were there like seven days a week pretty much now you guys what you guys would get off work at 7 p.m. and jam almost every day till 10 p.m.

yeah exactly and we were very tight on that like we stopped on the dot at 10 so we never got a complaint we never like no neighbors are pissed or anything like that and uh it's good hack right there yeah dude for i mean we did our our absolute best to like be respectful of that and uh his parents also played music so they were totally understanding and like supportive of us doing that as well he's like what are they doing up there Sometimes I'm sure. I'm sure especially, yeah, especially as we started getting more vocals going on, I'm sure, because his parents are amazing singers. So like they were probably just like cringing, turning up the TV as lot as possible so they didn't have to hear us. But yeah, it was cool. That was a big, big part of the foundation of how we're all able to get, you know, pretty good at what we do just in the sense of like nonstop jamming together and just writing together. And I feel like, you know, that shaped a lot of how I would write music because now. Now in the back of my head, if I'm writing something, I am thinking of what they would also think or what they might do randomly.

Like it's just unconscious. Like I, like, you already know. Yeah, like, would this work in like night versus or would this work? Would Eric and Riley think this riff is cool? And I'm just sitting in my room by myself thinking about that. And it's just kind of a, I don't know, it's like a mutual respect thing too that we all have in that way. And I feel like that's, I don't know. I'm glad we got to do that because I think it'd be a lot harder if I didn't have people to like challenge me growing up and like push me to be better at what I do.

So yeah, that was a good, good thing we got to do that. That's one thing I learned about you. You and in I first is your, it's how close you guys are and you guys have your foundation. It's a very solid foundation, being kids and growing together and playing together and having this crazy music. So it kind of all makes sense now. Yeah. Now that I see the backstory now. Yeah, no, that's cool.

And I mean, we've all gone to do random other projects and stuff here and there too. But I think that always kind of is like the underlying factor in a lot of what we do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Night versus is you guys. Yeah. So the night versus start at 2012?

Yeah. The year that the world was supposed to enter, right? Yeah. I know. Perfect year. I forgot how much I was paying attention to all that stuff. The world ending and like that, I remember that movie came out too and I was like super stoked on that. What's that movie called?

Is it called 2012? Yeah, 2012. Yeah. Wow. I don't think ever, have I seen this movie? I don't know. Yeah. that movie has the best

like tidal wave sequence in a movie that I've seen but dude tidal wave would be terrifying it would be scary as hell and like I think it took place in California too if I remember right in that movie so I feel like it would be relative to

yeah dude this scene is so sick it just looks like a mountain I can't be watched this movie yeah you should for sure what was the concept of 2012 the Mayan calendar ended Okay.

And they, I guess, had predicted random things throughout the timeline of everything. So, like, because that ended, people just assumed, like, the world must end when that were not everybody, but conspiracists like me, assume that the world was going to end at that point. And I didn't genuinely think so, but I was definitely reading message boards and forums,

just, like, gathering as much info as I could. I was interested. I love that kind of stuff. It's like aliens, like anything like that. I'm all super into. Yeah. Where do you go to find that information? Legitimately back then, I don't remember the exact website,

but it was a 2012 form that was created just to talk about that. So I was like on there all the time. Just like on there all the time. Just like a lot of psychos of one form? Yeah. Oh my goodness. Bunch of psychos for sure. And you're just writing nightfers of stuff.

Yeah, I'm just still trying to write riffs while I'm just like reading all this great. It all makes sense now. Because now you have a lot of options as far as where you get your info from. But you know, back to 2012, yeah, you kind of have. Yeah, well now I would just probably be on Reddit for everything but back then Yeah, I had to be a little bit more I guess finding this stuff online But I don't even remember how I found that one but I did and I was all about that I would check that like every day for like the year People believe it. People say I'm dumb

Yeah, so you'll be a I don't want to put you into a box but would you like consider yourself like a conspiracies or like what's uh what uh not really like i'm not like crazy about it but i like to know about what people are thinking about in those types of ways like it's fun to read about it's fun to like kind of try to understand why somebody might actually think a certain thing like that um and sometimes there's random things that line up that you know it's kind of interesting that things might line up that way but yeah but yeah i'm not like day to day like you know consciously thinking about the world ending or like random or like when aliens are invading and stuff like that

moments though like when all the drone stuff was happening like in new jersey and all that i don't if you're reading about that but like i was definitely interested in that yeah kind of seeing like what what that was and is now are we actually getting a taste of what you know might be some alien stuff like who knows but i don't think it was at this point but um yeah i'm down to i'm down to like open myself up to the idea of random shit. This is it. Mystery of giant drones swarming. It was weird. I mean, there's definitely things that I think will never fully know.

So I'm always down to try to see what things could be. What do you think it is? These, I think were, I think they were just us experimenting. I don't really know, to be honest. I never really got like a definitive feeling about it. I think it was more just like the government, maybe some other countries, drones coming into hours and we had to like release hours on top of that sure to kind of offset the what's going on a little bit maybe but um yeah i don't know i i definitely believe there's a lot of

things are just one big extraction maybe yeah i believe in two things i this is like my my my my core beliefs i believe they're in a distraction so when i see something big on on the news or some some kind of riot i that's when i get kind of freaked out like this is yeah what What else is going on? That's true. And so that's kind of like, what else is going on, dude? Holy shit. Yeah, I think that's very possible.

Like, they're... And also, I also believe, yeah, the best way to hide something is in front of people's faces. Yeah. Like, if you put something... A lot of, I guess you'd say, epiphanies of my personal... It's personal life. I think of my little fucking world of this fucking crazy planet. Answer is, I'm looking, I'm reading books.

I'm like, but the answer will be like right in front of your face or something like, well, a part of a song or like a rip, like, it's right here. I'm like looking around. Yeah.

It's like it's like you can put, you could put something in front of a human's face, especially when you're talking group humans. It's just hide it. So either you're hiding it in front of people or some big distraction or something else that's more serious. Yeah. I can totally see that being a thing.

Mm-hmm. I mean, it makes sense. Like I feel like everyone gravitates towards like the craziest shit that, like, Like something like that, like you're going to be interested in that. And they could totally get away with something on the side over here. I wonder where people went to to find out what was going on with 9-11, because that was a big conspiracy.

Yeah. I wonder where was a, when a Reddit start? It's a good question. That's probably a better question. I actually have no idea. If I already guess, I would say 2008, 2007 maybe. Reddit, Reddit year, Reddit, 2005? Oh.

Founded June 23, 2005, 20 years ago. Happy birthday Reddit. Two decades. Oh, shit, that's crazy. That's pretty crazy, huh? Yeah. That she flew by. Yeah, that site is pretty awesome.

I feel like if, I mean, I'm sure everyone at this point uses it or is familiar with it. But when I first gone to Reddit, that was like, it was a really fun site because there's so many subreddits and so many, there's so much information, right or wrong on that website. Right. Right or wrong. Yeah. Yeah. But the cool part, at least other than the fact that I feel like maybe a lot of like bots are on there now at this point or AI driven things. Oh, too.

Yeah. It's cool to see so many opinions and like the upvoting system is like something I was appreciated because like if people have an opinion and you got a bunch of other people weighing in on that opinion and it's like a lot of discussion. Yeah. But yeah, I don't know. I've definitely changed my mind recently on, on Reddit. Because sometimes you'll take a group of people and then you'll generalize the whole thing. And there's it tends to be like a lot of hate. They tend to conjugate in Reddit.

But if you take out those people, Reddit is really sick. So I'll I've said like I hate Reddit, but I really don't. I read it is fucking awesome. Because even I go in there. I'm like, oh shit, I'm on Reddit. Now you know how did I get here. I'm like looking for a geared question,

but it tends like that if people want to conjugate somewhere to hate on this bring people down, they tend to go to Reddit first. So that affects my opinion. But Reddit is fucking, it's really sick. Yeah, I think it's one of those things you have to just kind of find your own path of how you view it and like use your own kind of intelligence and your own research to like get definitive answers for things. But it's a good place to kind of get cool conversations or, you know, the dialogue on stuff going. Doing a research is tough, dude. Yeah.

This thing's taught me like, oh, man, I don't know. Shit. I've like read books, like books, hours and weeks and months and my life. And then I'll bring up a question and they're like, that's not true. I'm like, oh, shit. It's like, so like I kind of now, now I question even more. Yeah. You know, but that's, that's life.

We, we only do our best. For sure. You know? Well, shit, dude. I, uh, usually I like to jam. Yeah. With, with people, but you have such, Nick, you have such interesting tunings. Oh, yeah.

I don't even, so I, you do open tunings, right? With the, with the eight and you have a six string here that's tuned to C. Yeah. So all of my guitars I use open tunings. Um, I kind of just, I used to always use drop C just straight up as it was. Yeah. And then I kind of had a realization that if I tune like the top two strings down a whole

step, then now I have another octave of C and another octave of G. And it kind of opened up some ideas for me like as far as, you know, like harmonics and just open notes. Like having like those three octaves and those. Oh, which is I think Dadgad in a way. But I never did it. I never did. right i never did that specifically i just thought literally just tuning those to match the bottom two and then conceptually it's like you can play the same frets so like it's all the same and then harmonics

across the 12th fifth i mean the fifth fret seventh fret and 12th fret are all in key and the open notes if you're playing c is your root then all of that is in play and so to me that kind of opened up some doors of like like I can kind of move around a certain way. Wow. It kind of just expanded I guess my palette a bit of where I can hit. What made you do?

What made you do the tuning? Are we just like being like an idiot? Like I don't like this. Like just doing weird weird shit. How are you honestly I don't remember the exact moment but I think it was writing when I was trying to write more when night versus went instrumental. I think that was kind of the first time I really started honing

in on it. And when we So you guys have four records, right? Yeah. Okay, so the earlier record, the first one, is not the open tuning. I think I might have had one or two songs with it, but it was more like, it wasn't my main tuning. Like at that point, it was kind of like, how do I write in the same key? Like, I like writing and, I like having the open note as the root note for whatever tuning I'm in. I like having, like, if it's literally any tuning, I like having the open as the root of a song for the most part.

I vary from that, of course. but like that's where I like to start most of the time. And with that in mind, you know, I was trying to think of like, how can I do more within that, but also like not hit the same notes every time or not hit the same frets and all kind of stuff. And I don't know.

I don't think there was like a band or a song that made me do it. I think I just randomly did it. And I think like the idea of like tapping, like the frets being in play like here. Like you can just do that entire run all the same frills. and like that kind of situation just kind of opened up some ideas to me and then the harmonics that might have been really it because I wanted to do more harmonics actually now I think about it that is it because yeah having you know the ones up here just allowed more riffs to kind of happen or more parts to

happen it allowed me to fill more space as one guitar player because I can have more drone notes and more kind of like over over or like layers of notes so like if I'm writing like here like how that kind of hangs over. Yeah, I see what I'm going. So it kind of allowed me to fill out, like, more space that way. I see. Not to mention, like, you know, it's kind of a cool way. This guitar is not the best way to demo it, but I'll show you my A string, but like having

riffs where, you know, like, if you're writing like a riff, like, maybe an intro and you have kind of like a... Like, you can kind of like drop down, like, so you can kind of play the same shit. Instantly. Like, just having the opens to kind of bounce between or like, even just just, you kind of pull-offs like the yeah I don't know but that's kind of where I've always been mentally like it allowed me to fill out more

kind of space with one guitar I see it now okay yeah and even more so with these because then there's more strings there's more octaves there's more harmonics so like on my eight string I tune it and actually for the eight string I did this specifically because I could not wrap my head

around a standard eight string tuning like there's just too I just can't like if you hand me an eight string tuning in standard I'll sound like I don't really know what I'm doing. You'll have a hard thing. Or I'll just be rocking the bottom four strings, like just playing drop D riffs. That's what I do.

Same. So when I got one of my own, I was like, oh, I can tune this however I want because there's, I mean, I can do whatever I want. There's no rules, right? So I was like, so I just threw on different gauge strings and just kind of messed around.

And I tuned back guitar, FCF, A sharp, C sharp, FCF. So the top three are the same as the bottom three, which is really weird for something. people but here i'll bust it up this is i was trying to get the tune in my i'm like well he has a six string and a seven string and an a a string and a a string all open tunis how how that hell is he doing it make sure it's a in tune i should have done this before we started and this is up you're just

listening this is a bossy yeah yeah yeah i play a bossy eight strings this is the m e eight that's a sick guitar i also have the lauraura legion i believe i think it's freaking it's a based you don't got to be in tune man true um so yeah this one same kind of shit all the harmonics on the fifth seventh and twelfth which is like a pretty cool dark moody vibe and uh this one i got to take the ring off um but yeah like this one there's there's more open notes, more harmonic. So with this, I can kind of pick, you know. There's also the bossy pedal.

That thing adds like a nice... It's kind of like a compressor. So even just like picking just all the open notes while I'm hammering on my left hand, just kind of like creates more opportunity for some cool rhythmic stuff. Also, showing you like that. So like if I was doing like a buildup riff between stuff

or even having like chords out of it, Yeah, it's fun for like heavy shit in that way But for the melodic stuff that's like super fun to jam with like the spacey clean kind of having all the harmonics and things layering over each other Yeah, how did you figure out the tuning for for the a string did it did it take you a bit? Yeah, I tried a few different things What was important to me was having the harmonic chords so like I want it all the way through Like having just even on just one fret Like I wanted them to be chords as well so I can have riffs like in some ways it's it's a little bit of a cheat in a way

because it kind of like guarantees you certain things but it also I don't know I kind of my head is wrapped around that now so like for me it's not cheating well at least my personal opinion it's not you're not sure you got you got to write it yeah yeah sure you got to take it your life to it you know it's not it's fucking sick dude um are you are you uh it was sad a guy uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh you uh you're No, but I think I've always gravitated towards minor music. Like, I really, nothing I listen to is major. Like, I do not, I mean, that I, off the top of my head, I can't think of a single song where I'm like, oh, I like that song and it's in major. Yeah, it's always some kind of, yeah.

Like, I can like a Beatles song here and there. I can like, you know, maybe something that is a little happier sometimes. But for the most part, everything I listen to, every band that's like my favorite band mostly writes in minor. Like, I don't know if there's a tool song that is in major. I don't know if there's like there might be maybe moments of OPEC that touch in major but I think for the most part they're also a lot in minor and like you know Isis the band

is in minor and most of the time I think they have like one song in major like dang it calm down dude God I got to sit great do great band man yeah I love all that stuff so like the very moody music is something I've always gravitated towards and yeah I think minor keys are just the best so my head is just like

that's what I always think to do so all of my tunings are catered towards that and honestly for as long as i've been playing guitar i very have a very ignorant perspective of that like i don't know if i had to jam in major i don't know that i could do it without hitting a wrong note like i'm i'm just so mentally focused on what i like and what i know that uh i never quite learned scales traditionally i kind of just like did my own thing you choose because you you make you you got a guitar and then you immediately started writing before you can even play yeah yeah yeah yeah I was always focused on writing so I used to have like a very basic way to record myself with like

this shitty computer mic and I would just put it next to that Ibanez amp that we were looking at earlier just put it up against it and I'll just record that way into like acid into like acid pro like back in the day like the old doll I don't even I wonder if I'd even exist anymore um but I used to use acid to record stuff which was funny and I didn't know what I was doing. Is this it? Maybe yeah I'm sure it's adapt changed over the years but yeah that looks pretty familiar. Yeah so I used to I used to use that yeah now I use logic which is way so good logic sick but um yeah it's very simple and yeah I don't know so I used to always be more interested in writing riffs and trying to make my own thing versus like learning like I learned other people's songs

which I think is important because early on like you want to learn riffs that you like so that you can kind of understand how they're done. So I used to do that and that would help my playing a lot. And actually one of the biggest things that helped me was I took lessons from AJ Minnet who used to play in the human abstract. Or he probably I guess he never like left it. But he's a awesome, awesome guitar player. And I took lessons with him when I was pretty young like 19 or so with my friend Chris. We used to go up there and take lessons. And it was cool because like my friend Chris was learning like theory mostly like he was interested in that side of stuff and AJ was great at teaching that but I just

was really interested in technique. It's like I just wanted him to show me physically how to do things better and like what like you know how to like not necessarily shred but like how to just be better at physically playing guitar. I didn't care about understanding more musically. I just wanted to play better. So he gave me some cool techniques on like warm ups and just random like he taught me on to like sweet pick also which is something I really wanted to learn like I don't think I don't think he was trying to teach me that. I was just like I really want to learn how to sleep pick. So I learned at the time how to do that. And that was super helpful.

And he actually, the reason why I play it this way on my left leg instead of like on the right is because of him too. Oh, wow. So like he kind of broke down my whole posturing and like everything I used to do back then. And yeah, if anyone doesn't know AJ or the human abstract,

go listen to Nocturn. I mean, that dude was like 18. I think when he wrote that and the guitars are insane on that. So, yeah. So he was a big, big part of like what kind of shaped like,

that allowed. me to get better at guitar like playing wise for sure when I took lessons from him and then um yeah after that you know I was I've always been about writing so that's kind of why I wanted to learn the technique stuff was just to get better at writing riffs that I want to write things that I want to you know hear from other bands and like aspire to do I wanted to learn how to do those things because like mentally I always felt like I knew what I wanted to write I just didn't know how to quite get there every time yeah um so that was always my my focus that's life dude how do I how do I this yeah for sure I need to figure out how to get there yeah it's cool it's a really

cool way to take a lesson I did something pretty similar or like you don't want to learn theory but you just want to learn how to put your fucking fingers on the fretboard yeah how do I just move how do I how do I do this yeah and to this day I don't know theory at all so like there are people like I've given the guitar lessons and they ask me questions about that I'm just like do honestly I'm not the dude for that like I don't know you probably know more than I do about theory like I I might know like some things on But for the most part, I've always been about just finding your own voice through just experimenting and finding the right notes to you and stuff like that. And obviously, like, there's, you know, it's helpful to know certain things, I'm sure. And maybe I'm being, like, naive to that. But I like the idea of discovery. So, like, if I'm just going to play guitar, I don't want to know this chord, it goes into this chord because it makes this thing happen. Like, it's, I want to just find that out naturally. Like, I don't want to know, like, by the book or like mathematically what I'm supposed to do or things like that to create a mood.

I just like finding the mood that I want. So that's kind of where I've always been. And I don't think there's anything wrong with you. I think if you are going about it that way, like there's some sure things you can do that I would never think to do either. But yeah, I don't know. That's always been kind of my perspective on it. And also, again, ignorantly a little bit.

Like I played guitar and drop C for so long. So my whole perspective of guitar playing is based around drop C. So even on the 8 string or the 7 string, string, I will reference my sixth string and drop C in my head. So it's like if I know something's an F, like this guitar is an F on the bottom string, that's the fifth fret on my six string. Yeah. So then if I'm like, basically that kind of helps me translate certain things. So if somebody's like, oh, like if I'm on my six string and someone's like, oh, the song is in G, then I think about the seventh fret. I'm like, okay, so seventh fret, which means these frets are in play, in minor at

least so I know automatically what I can hit just because I know the seventh fret is G and then I know like the second fret is D so things like that so like I I wrap my head around like which notes which open notes are available so like yeah I'll switch back to that so I can explain but yeah please it's a it's a I always tell people with this like the center of my body is drop A do you do you think there's something about C that's this that's this you what's like I think C is the perfect balance of heavy and not so heavy that it's like, like that next step.

Like drop A is like significantly darker and heavier than C. And I love drop A. This guitar isn't basically drop A. Nice. And C, I think the first thing I learned in C was system of a down. So like when I learned a song by them,

I was like, oh, this tuning is pretty cool. It's heavier, but it's still, you can still hear, it's clear enough. Like you can still hear the notes and stuff like that. Doesn't muddy out too much. What song? I'm sorry. I learned just system of a down songs in general. Oh, okay. Yeah, nice.

Probably at that time would have been like, sugar or like spiders and stuff like back then the first record nice and then I got toxicity was pretty sick too but yeah that so like for me for example like if I'm playing in drop C but this guitar is then the seventh fret I think about okay in this fret in this key that this fret is the root of what open notes do I have it's this this is the root of that right yeah So then now I know, okay, so I can go like, like I can go back to that if I want. And then there's other ones because I have this open tuning.

I also have it here. So then I know like, okay, I can bounce between those octaves without any pedals yet. So that's not even incorporating the whammy, which can also shift me even other places. So then I'm thinking like, okay, I have these. Also I think about which harmonics are in play, right? So in that key, I have the seventh fret one. I have the 12th fret, which is the octave of that and the open that I was hitting. I have the 12th fret here, which is also that same octave.

So that's kind of the stuff I think about because then for me, that allows me to fill out more space again. So I can like know, I don't know what that was. So I have like the range to do more stuff. And then in F, which would be the fifth fret, I know that it's this. So it's like it's a little higher, but I can do like maybe some weird stuff like, like I have that drone of that note. And then obviously C, I have that one, this one. And then, yeah, I don't know.

So kind of like base it around that. That changes, those are the main ones that off the top of my head, but then it kind of varies between other ones. Like D, I'm not going to have those as much. You would in a regular drop D tuning or drop C tuning because you would have the octave there. But yeah, I don't know. That's like my brain gets a little bit weird with that stuff.

That's kind of where I'm at. Get weirder, dude, it's awesome. I think for, because people are hearing this, and I'll do what, what's making it sound, like, besides you? What's like the, I guess what's the rig? Yeah. So I'm running the AxeFX right now, and I have it in stereo basically in a way where

if you have one of these things, and this will probably work in any modeler, I have a delay that goes after my cab that kind of splits. There's like a 20-millimeter, second delay that kind of offsets the guitar a little bit so it creates a wider signal so if you are listening at home or anything like that and you put on headphones it spreads out or it should spread like two guitars i think but um yeah so like that that allowed me uh to fill out just like a wider signal that way but yeah

the chain basically i run like a compressor into um one of the amps on there or two of the amps on there really And then I put a delay before the cab, and then I put a delay after the cab, which that one I was just talking about the 20 second, the middle of second off split thing. And then I put one more delay at the end of everything, which kind of sends everything into a full stereo sound. But I like the delay in front of the app because it creates a dirtier delay sound. Yeah. So like it gets a little weird because like the last delay in the chain is slightly different in the feedback than the one in the front of the cab. So I don't know, a little bit more of dissonance. I guess.

No, it's rack. So we had the Axeufx3 rack, and then we have the FC12 foot controller. Correct. Okay. Yeah, and I went with this full controller because, well, this thing's a freaking beast as well. Like, you can beat the shit out of the FFSI-12

and it can take it. And that's one thing I liked about it. I also have these K&K shields on top. Shout out to them, because it's a really sick accessory for the fractal, but it kind of just like protects the unit as well. Okay. They make them for all the modelers, though.

if anyone needs that. So this thing, basically, I have four scenes, or I mean eight scenes on the left, which is all the red buttons here. And then I have a tap tempo, a tuner. I have this thing labeled as harmony, but it's basically like an extra button. And then I have a layout. So the layout button here, I've set up to have all my different songs in our set. So I can just push one, it'll switch to all that preset.

Okay. So it brings up the preset for that song. and then yeah so I built a patch just for this today just to have like some stuff to play through but oh nice man um yeah so that's kind of like the setup and then I have a effect wise depends on the song

so I got build a different preset for each song with effects I use the same amps and everything across the board but I switch up which I think is the Solano and the angle severe I think it's called I use both of those for my amps and then for the clean I think I think I actually don't remember what my clean ones are I forget but um that's for distortion so I also have like the ax effects controlled my whammy too so generally I would have like my MIDI cable plugged into the whammy and so when I change patches on here on the axe effects it changes the settings on the whammy too so which is a game changer for me because I'm like I used to be a master like tap dancing like I would have like all my stuff timed out you know two feet on the board at once like whatever I had to do and uh this kind of frees up some of that like need to tap like that so I have the the axe effects changes the

settings on the whammy per moment of the song which I can set up in the scenes of the axe effects which is awesome that changed everything for me and I use a lot of the pitch shifting in here too so I mean I have like in here the song vice wave drops me down to A sharp and that's just purely the pitch and the axe effects and like I use the octave and that's like uh basically what the octave would be on the whammy is what I'm trying to get to so like I usually like uh I saw you had uh Darren Miller on here also and that dude is kind of like the octave master of that tone like it's kind of like I love his tone so sick and that's kind of like the I know he uses a different pedal but I use the whammy

for that a lot and what's cool with the whammy is at least like you can pitch shift it up So it gets a little weirder with that, which is fun. That's freaking sick, dude. And then this ricochet pedal, I don't know if you mess with this one, but the ricochet. And then, so people don't know, you have the Axe FX 3, you have the floorboard, but also you're incorporating a pedal board to it, which goes to the Axe FX, it comes back, correct? Yeah, I run the pedal board in front of the Axe Effects, actually. So any sound on the pedal board is going in front of the amps.

Got it. I've always liked it that way. I've never used, like, effects return and send and stuff like that. yeah i just like how it dirties up the signal like i like that sound it's a little noisier it's a little more chaotic and so i've always kind of done that um i know a lot of people actually run xxly but i just never i just never did that so and there's also there's so many ways to run pedals with these things like the four cable method all that kind of stuff i never bothered with it i always just ran everything in front um and now what's cool is like because i have the modeler which again

like quad cortex kemp or i don't about kemper but like helix anything i don't about kemper but like helix these things can put your signal into stereo. So having the pedal board, even in mono, going in front of your amp, you can still split into a stereo signal using one of the modelers. So having that opportunity is really nice, which is what I do. So this board, yeah, I got, I'll go through real quick. So we have the Abbasi pedal in front, which is the, it's like the microaggressor, which is kind of like a compressor-ish type pedal. It's kind of its own thing, though. I've got to be honest, like, I've used a few different compressors. I feel like this one is the best at going for that kind of like really bitey kind of like a crisp clean tone.

Like I use it for a lot of like if I'm doing any selective picking kind of stuff especially, it very much helps that. But anything with harmonics or tapping, it's really good for us. So I have that pedal in front. That's going into the Grand Orbiter, which is from Earthquaker devices, which is basically this pedal's. I use it. I've talked about this pedal a lot in particular. Yeah, it's cool. It does more than I use it for, but I use it for this setting that basically is like a, just like chaos.

So it's at the end of our song. We have a song called a rival. And basically, so, yeah. So it creates like that kind of chaos sound. And that's how I have it set. It's pretty much a phase shifter kind of pedal. Yeah. But I just blast the rate and I kind of like, yeah, it's a setting.

I mean, it's pretty much that. It's just like blasting the knobs a bit. But it's sick. So, yeah, so I got that one. Those two pedals go into the Whammy. Whammy goes into the ricochet, which the ricochet is cool for so many reasons, but it does things the Whammy can't do and you can control it with the knobs. So like it doesn't have the MIDI capabilities that the Whammy has, but it has a lot of other features

that the WAMI doesn't have. So, okay. For example, it can shift you down and it can be momentary. So you can be like, and that's going down like a fourth shoot it down an auctionary. I should probably turn off my I already had an octave on too. Actually let's go clean. So and then you can time the the way it goes down or up. So right now it's going down and there's two knobs on it.

One is how long it takes to get back to your regular sound and how long it takes to get down the octave. So you can even time it more. You can have it take longer to get back up too. back up too. So having that in combination with the whammy is like super crucial to me. I was wondering like, why does he have a whammy and the ricochet? I got it. Yeah.

So that pedal is sick. And then that I think is going into the synthesizer, which is from Boss. And that pedal is kind of like a, it's a little crazy. I haven't found like a place to put it in a song quite yet. but it can do a lot of cool stuff. So it can just be like a raphaedator. So like, it's pretty nuts for just like one guitar to be able to do that. Oh, wow.

So I found running that with some fuzz is pretty cool. Let's go. Dude, you definitely blew up in aliens for sure. That's, I get it. Okay. Yeah, then that goes into the dynamic wall, which I prefer to use an actual wild. pedal because I like the foot control of stuff, but it is cool with this pedal because there's a tempo function on it. So you can tap in the tempo. Oh, what's the tempo? You can get it going really

fast. Oh, that's cool. Which, like, you can't do that with your foot as easily. Yeah. Yeah. So I like that one. That one, obviously also in combination with their pedals is crazy. And then I also have the Earthquaker devices Pyramids pedal which this pedal is sick and it's also a flanger kind of similar ish to the Grand Orbiter if you're

not using it in the way that I am but I'm using it as like kind of a chaos pedal. Okay. And to me this is kind of like the new metal lead so if I was doing like if someone had chords

or something and I was going like so like that pedal I use We actually have a song with my seven string where in that verse is called Phoenix. It's on our new record or Phoenix invocation. And that has a part with this pedal where it's like basically, I don't know. I like it a lot for the high pitch, kind of squealy sounds. But it does work as a good flanger as well if you're into like that kind of more incuous kind of vibe maybe on guitar.

and then that goes into the sunless uh basically sunless winter which is like um it's kind of it's basically it's an overdrive okay so i mean it functions like most would but it's a good one i like it um so i use that to drive more like metal stuff if i wanted to have a little bit of an extra boost and then the hizu mitaz i believe it's called from earthquakeer is the fuzz pedal that i've been using and this one just a solid fuss pedal It can kind of do a couple different tones with that. Really cool with the octave setting on the whammy. That's like a good combo.

And then I have this pedal on the top left, which is actually a custom pedal. My friend Chris made me. And it's also a foz pedal, but it's pretty different. I can kind of get this broken sound. Nice. That's dope. And then, yeah, so then I have the Phoenix. This Foxgear Company, I believe it was owned by Schechter at some point.

I don't know if they still exist. But I have a couple of their pedals. So this one is basically an overdrive, which I kind of just had, so I threw it on here. But it's solid. It kind of is not, I like those on this one the most of those, but I just have it here just to add an extra thing. And then I also have this trembleer pedal, which is basically also from Foxgear, and this is like a tremolo. Although I will say it's a pretty mild tremolo, but it's kind of cool to have sometimes. It's like this is it fully blasted.

Oh, it's very subtle. It's very subtle. I don't know if that's just because of words out in the chain or what, but... It like creeps up after. Interesting. So it's kind of weird. That's nice. That's cool.

Then this matrix pedal is basically a flanger. Sort of almost like a chorus, too. Tight. And one of my favorite pedals in addition to the whammy and stuff like that is this holy grail from... Classic pedal, dude. Wow, I can't think of the... Electrohormonics. Yeah, shit.

EHX. Very sick pedal. This thing, to me, like, if you're ever going for, like, a shoegazy kind of sound, maybe, like, deaf tone style. It adds, like, a nice,

kind of, like, vibey sound to it. So I use that a lot. And then all of that ends with the noise suppressor from Boss, which does what it does. Classic. Yeah, classic pedal.

Can't beat it. And you saw the same one he got when you were in high school, right? Yeah, pretty much. You could tell us by looking at it. Tight. Yeah, so there's, that's pretty much the general, like, this is what I have set up at home is my studio board all the time. And then here and there, when we do shows, I have like a smaller

board that is just the essential pedals and I'll pull some off of this. What's on that? What's in your like essential board? The essential board is the ricochet, the whammy, the Grand Orbiter, and sometimes the pyramids, that pedal I only use in one song, so I don't always have it. And then, I have an expression pedal. So that's kind of that. Also, actually, I just added the drop tune pedal from Digitech as well, just in case I need to pitch shift down. I can do that on the fractal, but it saves me a block if I use it, if I use the pedal.

So I can have like more to more to do on the fractal instead of using a pitch shifter dedicated just to pitch shift me down. Oh, okay. So I can use the drop tune in front of the app, which would do the same thing. And to be honest, it actually, that pedal is really good. The drop tune pedal does some of the best, like, uh, you know, full key change pitch shifting that I've used. So I feel like it's pretty necessary for that situation where you want to like drop your entire guitar down a whole step

or whatever, half step. Oh shit, okay. Yeah, so that pedal's sick. So if you ever, I mean, if you have a modeler, most of them can do this as well. But I feel like having it in addition to them is pretty helpful because it kind of frees up a little bit of the, the modeler to do other things.

How many pedals at, what, five? On the, yeah, on the live board, yeah, about five pedals. And then, yeah, I, I, I'm trying to keep it low like that because the less I have the less issues I'll have. Totally. And I try to put most of the stress onto the fractal in terms of effects and things like that just because it's such a beast that can handle a lot. Yeah.

So I put a lot. Like I don't have any delays or reverbs on. That's a reverb technically. But the EHX pedals are reverb, the Holy Grail. But technically I don't have any like delays on here. So I use all the delay on the fractal. And it's full stereo. So like I don't know that.

Delay to me is not such a like proprietary sound like as far as like I don't think there's any one company that makes like the best delay sound. I think delay can sound good even on the cheapest end. So I know that like the strayman timeline is like the most like I've used that on records a bunch and that is a really, really sick one. But for most of the sounds I need, just the basic delay. Like if I'm using, if I'm recording, I use the logic tape delay. Oh wow.

Like 90% of the time for any delay that I want. Wow. which is just the stock logic delay. What was the one you used to have? It was the boss. Is it the gate delay? Oh, yeah. So I do also have that.

Is that right? Yeah, yeah, the gigadilay. The DD20. It's a white pedal. It's classic. Yeah, that pedal's sick. What was so sick about that pedal and why I even got it in the first place was it can save presets. Yeah.

And it has a, it's actually the DD20. I don't even know what that. That one looks totally different. What is that? That's the, I think, upgraded version. of it. Yeah, this is the hot one, dude. Yeah, so that pedal. This is the hot boy right here.

It's a cool pedal. So, yeah, you can save four presets, which was sick, and you can, uh, save, you can dial in exact tempos. So, like, you don't have to tap in tempos. You can just have them ready to go. Yeah. Which was really helpful at the time before I was using any model or situation. Um, I used to use that pedal.

And I still have it. Like, that's, the boss pedals are tanks. Like, I've had those forever. They don't break. Like, I've had them, I mean, literally, I don't have it on here now, but my delay pedal I've had since I was in high school. I still have it. The DD6 and I have this one too but the dd6 I've had forever like knobs are missing on it like it's like the covers are missing but the pedal works fine so yeah it's crazy how those things hold up what are they mean out of

is that? I don't know freaking what what is pedals an alien tech metal dude. Dude I wonder dude is it is it metal or is that is that plastic? They're not I don't think plastic might be aluminum yeah. I wonder some kind of I wonder what they're very sturdy but yeah the DD6 is sick. Boss is like the most like to the point effects. I feel like they just do exactly what you need them to do. That's why they're so classic. Yeah. And they're all the same size, which is really cool. I mean, not all of them, but like those pedals, like they're either the dual pedal for the most part or the single one. I feel like that's cool if you have, like I always just select a guitar center when you go there and they just have like a whole boss board and they're all

just perfectly aligned and it's like nice look at. And then you just go there and try it out, turn on a knobs up. Oh, for sure. Yeah, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're doing exactly what I want to do. I want to combine the pedals with your with your amp. So I want to find out, I'm trying to like, because I'm going to each pedal and it's finding which one's better.

This chorus and the quality the chorus is this untouchable. I put, I put through the, I put in the small stone, like the classic all my choruses. It's just, so I'm trying to find which ones do their job. Which one's better? And when I have like, you go good like four like pedals.

Yeah. I see you got the pitchfork too. That pedal's sick. Pitchfork's really fucking cool. We use that on our record, our last record, for bass, actually. It has like this, yeah, like the Ockel Lower Effect, which just sounds better. I don't know. Again, you like compare, okay, which one's better? Okay, I'll fucking pick that one.

Yeah. I think guitar players get a little bit too geeky where it's like they want to go all digital. Like, man, you have kind of fine what's fucking sick, dude, and use it. Yeah, it's nice having the balance and also just the options and stuff. And I think like the cool thing about pedals is that they're made to do exactly what that pedal says is going to do. So like the thought and like the intention behind it is to make that effect as good as it can be. Whereas a modeler, they're trying to cover all the ground and not saying their pedals aren't good or the effects aren't good. But like it's just a different vibe.

It's different. Yeah. It's a little, in my opinion, it's a little different. So yeah. But I think the quad effects are good from what I've heard. Like I haven't had one to mess with for long, but that pedal or that. that thing is sick. The fractal effects are awesome. I'm stoked on all of those and like the the range that they have in there is like covers most of the territory I need. Um, but the pitch

shifting from Digitech is always my favorite. So that's why I have the Whammy and Rickashay have backups of each of these just in case. And, um, I've been using these for forever. So like, though like I, I definitely will always have at least a whammy. And actually on our last tour with animals, uh, went out with Animals as Leaders in March. And, uh, that, my whammy pedal power died. Oh, perfect. In the middle of a set. And my fractal controller came, like half of the thing went out because, like, one of the

ribbon cables came unplugged. And like, that's my fault for not ever even trying to open it up. But I did like three tours up to the, or two tours right before that. And then we went into animals and not through all the traveling and stuff. It got moved around a bunch, I'm sure. So it just came loose. And so what was really cool about that is it sucked. first of all it sucked that I didn't like I was kind of freaking out about it because we're in the middle of the set and it was a good show there at that one and um anyway so like three songs in that half of the board just goes black and so what was cool about it is it shifted all of my presets into six buttons as best as it could like it wasn't like these just died and there were then these stay the same it actually moved some things around so it allowed me to still switch settings oh between songs which was nice so I wasn't totally screwed

And then, but my whammy pedal of power died. So I was like, wait, what the hell? So I thought the whammy was messed up. I didn't know. But then I also had the expression pedal. So I was like, well, I can try to find another whammy or another power supply. Or I can just reprogram my patches and the Axe effects and use the expression pedal as my whammy, which worked for most of it.

And I had the ricochet. So I got through the rest of the tour like that. But yeah. And yeah, it was just not a not the same feeling though. Like I like the, I feel like the whammy is just. just the perfect feel of pedal movement and the sound that just works the best. Yeah, the whammy stuff, it's one thing that I think all of the companies can't nail yet. Yeah.

It's not there. And it, yeah, it's just, I feel like if you've used the whammy for a long time, you can tell the difference. I think in general, like the pitch shifting works fine for all of them, but I think the whammy is just, it's, it's what it is. Like, that's just, they've perfected it. What's your favorite effect on her? Since it's almost your favorite pedal, it's not your desert island pedal, but it's, uh, I like It's an octave down. Okay.

Because I like that you can sort of like scoop your sounds a bit. So like having like, like none of my guitars have a whammy bar because of all the tuning shifting and stuff. And so because of that, like I try to use it like that sometimes. So like bending harmonics essentially. I see. Like just that little subtle stuff. And obviously for heavier stuff, it's great. cool so i like it for that too

dope dude that uh you have like one of the craziest harmonic riffs it's in a i think it's the verse for rivals oh the what how do you play that fucking riff dude off the well it's not the record came out until i was in 24 so i yeah we did that one is like a split release too so like the first half i think was 2023 and then the second half we did i think it i think it was

wow but um yeah rival Arrival, that, that, I mean, would you call it a first riff? I don't know. Yeah, yeah. But that harmonic riff is just crazy. So, like, with the dotted delay, and then, yeah, I just kind of bounce between the harmonics, like, all the fifth and seventh threats. And then it goes into the setting. That's a sick.

The harmonics is one thing that you can't mess up. And that's actually another setting I like on the whammy. That, uh, was it fifth down? Yeah. Like that kind of harmony Yeah, setting's cool Nice But yeah

Harmonics are definitely Yeah you gotta be a little precise with those Is that if you mess it up dude You could really tell Well delay too I think one of my favorite Like memes of that I think was KMack

I don't know that guy on YouTube But he made a video I think it was him Where like the delay You like hit one wrong delay note And it just trails forever And it's just like Possily wrong

There's like It has a pretty funny video on it But yeah Delay is always, I don't know, I always have delay on everything. I feel like it was my favorite tone style because like everything you do just has like cool resonance to it and stuff. Yeah, how feels me. Yeah.

Is this it? Yeah. I haven't seen this in so long. Oh my God. Yeah. So you have this in drop A, you said? This is A, but I was going to play something in C. Okay.

That's crazy. So you're pitch shifting. From A to C. No, I'm just playing on the third fret. Oh. And then I'll treat the fret up as like, it's like my seven. Gotcha. So it's kind of like, so you're always at zero to seven.

Isn't that an awkward thing though? Like with like the third fret is such an awkward root note to me for a song. Really? Seven? The third fret, yeah, the third fret in any tuning as your root, or in any drop tuning as your root, I feel. like is a really weird like uh because you have no open notes. So you have no open notes available, which for me is like I can't it's like I can play in that. But then it's like it's weird because like you I feel like it's like unnecessarily limiting. Like I don't ever we have one song called Trading Shadows where that is the root and it's only

because our drummer Eric wrote the melody that drives the song on his pad like his SPD pad or whatever. Yeah. And I remember when we were jamming it, I was like, damn it, like, you're kind of like putting me in a really awkward spot because I love that melody, but like I don't love playing in this tuning or like this key. That'll be D sharp, right? Yeah, so it would be D sharp. And so like I just had to like force myself to write to it. And we did it. It's cool.

It works. But do you never again. Do you down you a freestyle or riff? Yeah. So you're open. So I'll stay in a C. I can also go to A if you want if that's better. like I don't want to put you in some weird spot

because then I would I would feel like that would stress me out if I was you Oh no I always I always kind of is Because I like I like not knowing what the fuck I'm doing Got you alright yeah yeah let's do it Let's do it man you ready yeah alright Let me switch back to my gym So I got I got the chorus and the pitchfork going

So I always like doing a higher notes It's kind of like Go sell player You're just You can just go It's rad man I read a lot that way I kind of like to just

like yeah just kind of find my way along along the path i guess i don't know yeah i like you said that uh you like to uh you like to write yourself into a corner yeah sometimes i think it's i mean i used to do a lot of twitch streaming um and i wrote on there that was like my whole stream was just about writing songs and uh yeah i used to just basically i would start around like 11 a.m. and I would go until maybe like three ish and I would try to write an entire song on that stream. Oh wow. And so the goal was literally just start to finish sometimes purely from scratch sometimes I would do it like I would have like a riff that I maybe posted on Instagram and I'm like okay I'm going to build this out into a song now on Twitch and yeah so you're just live in front of

people on the computer and I wrote like 180 something songs on there which was like stupid. Like it was a lot of music. The quantity was at times more than the quality, but I would try to do my best to write my best self through all of that. And it was cool because a lot of the things we actually, like, I have another project called Head Cave. Yes. And a lot of the, I wrote some of those songs on Twitch.

I wrote some parts for Night Verses on Twitch that made it onto our record and stuff like that. Yeah. So it was a good thing for me to practice writing and to challenge myself because, yeah you know i mean like you you write songs you get stuck sometimes and you're like like what do what what do i do after this part and when you're live on the spot like you're kind of forced into like i have to be entertaining first of all if this is like live to people so you're thinking about that and then you're just kind of like okay well now that i've written like so many songs you kind of like you start having like a roll decks of like ideas of like

okay well i can do a harmonic riff or let's uh only write with the whammy pedal pitch shift it like you kind of pick something that will like make you do something weird yeah so like if I read a riff in all harmonics uh then that like something like that like something like that where it's like I can only hit harmonics so that's all I did like something like that um or I wrote a song on there one time only using open notes and I pitch shifted all the progressions yeah it's like all my core progressions were just all purely open notes with a whammy like moving yeah And it didn't sound as probably like great as like a normal song would, but it was a fun challenge to just like do. And then sometimes, you know, it's like you get stuck and it's like, okay, well, maybe the guitar is not determining what changes the part. Maybe it's a drum beat or a bass line or like a sample or maybe I'm going to reverse the previous riff or something like that or I'm going to like, you know, do just some weird stuff like that. And yeah, that was a great challenge for me. So yeah, I released all these songs. because I was doing so many and I suck at naming stuff, I just titled them all as numbers. So it was like Twitch 1, Twitch 2, Twitch 3.

So like, yeah, like right here is like 37, 42. Like, and the cool thing about that is I didn't have to name stuff. The bad thing is when I want to reference something, I have to, I don't remember what it was. So there's like a handful of them that I know like we're cool or cooler than others. So actually on Spotify and everywhere else, I released like a compilation of the two years. So like one year was like my favorite 20 songs and then I did my favorite 20 songs from the next year. Wow. And it just allowed me to kind of focus on those.

So those I know a little bit better in the top of my head. But yeah, that stuff like it ranges from, I guess, what would be like a night versus isish kind of sound into Head Cave, which is more like, I guess, like, chanty new metal kind of. Head Cave's sick. And I didn't know that you had the singer of Mike to get home. Yeah, yeah, Nick Gmini. So that's rad.

Yeah, two Knicks, just making riffs. Yeah. But yeah, Nick is a super sick vocal. it's very good and um with that project we're able to basically you know do whatever we want because there's no it's just me and him so like there's no like like anything we have to really worry about besides just making ourselves stoked on stuff so yeah what's really cool about nick is he's a very capable like at recording so i can literally just record entire music for songs musically send him the full song and he'll send me back a fully mixed vocal track yeah or with like over the song and it always

sound like everything we've released has been just purely ourselves it's great and uh it's a fun project and he's really good at what he does so i'm always stoked to like hear something for the first time in full usually yeah and it's just like oh hell yeah like and the way that started was so sick too because like i was releasing my own music instrumentally um i used to call him like heavy eps so it's hv ep and i've had one of those out and then um i basically had posted some stuff online with that and he messaged me we toured we toured at night versus with my ticket home a while back

and uh yeah yeah we did a tour when we had a vocalist still um they had just put out they're about to put out strangers only which is a really good record from them and uh seriously anyone who doesn't know my ticket home like strangers only you got to do just check out that record it's so freaking good um

and they were kind of like on the early stages of the new metal revival that i feel like has been happening with a lot of bands they were like ahead of everybody and then they stopped I know. Too early. That record came on 2017. Unreal.

Unreal is really good too. Yeah, we had someone that used to help us out with the pod, Zach Perez. He was like, check out this band. But this record, I forgot how many times I had Unreal on repeat. That record is sick. It just sucks at that.

It was like prime and then they stopped. Yeah, well, it's tough because when they were doing that stuff, I think a lot of people weren't like hip to it yet. Like I think it wasn't, people weren't ready for like that type of, sound and I think people who knew it liked it like I think they have a fan base for sure but I think it's everywhere now yeah they would do way better now like if they put out strangers only and then Unreal again like all that stuff would it would crush and yeah so we toured them on that they

hadn't even put it out yet so they're playing all these songs holy crap but like I like I was saying like I grew up on new metal like I love like corn was on my favorite bands growing up deaf tones like all that stuff was like I was all about it like even the deeper cuts like Adema and tapery and all this shit yeah so I was like all about that and uh I saw them play when we were touring with them. And I was just like, yo, like, this is sick. Like, this is all the shit I like that you guys are doing. So we became really good friends with them, too, through that.

They're cool dudes. And Nick, anyway, yeah, long story short, so Nick sent me vocals over one of my songs randomly one night. I'm, like, writing some bullshit, like, electronic music. Like, I'm not, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just messing around. It's like 10 p.m. Just doing my thing.

And, like, I just get a text from him with, like, a full song recorded over one of my songs. And it was sick. And I was just like, yo, what is this? Like, for real, you just did this shit? He's like, yeah. And then I was all hyped on it. And I called him the next day, and I was like,

yo, like, let's make this a project because, like, this is sick. And, like, I have a bunch of songs that you would kill. So I just started sending him shit. And he wrote to everything. And so our first EP, which sonically is a terrible mix because every song is a different mix. It's just all over the place.

But you really came together. I think EP2, I think was when I was jamming. Oh, sick. I think that was the one. Hell yeah. Yeah, that was definitely like the most. polished version of what we were trying to do. But the first EP, I will say, is the most riffed-out stuff I've probably written,

because I was trying my hardest to write the craziest riffs that I could and the most, like, heavy shit that I could. So the first EP on guitar is actually, to this day, pretty hard for me to play. Maybe not for other people, but, like, for me, that was me, like, going as hard as I could at the time. And that was, like, 2019, I think. And, yeah, 2019. And, yeah, so, like, that EP was, it's a lot of fun to listen to.

And it's one of the things I can listen back to and, like, not feel like I did it, I guess, if that makes sense. Because I'm so far removed from it right now. But, like, if you asked me to play any of those songs, there's no way I could. Actually, that's the next rip I'm going to ask you a play right now. Yeah, I mean, like, the song Half Alive was pretty hard. I remember I actually learned it once to play for a NAM. I was going to do a performance with Neural DSP. and I learned that song and it was hard

but I was ready to do it and then I went to go play and they said they had gotten noise complaints so my set was going to be like four songs and they cut it to one and I was like all right well I'll just play a night versus song because I was ready to do that too

yeah so I played one of those but yeah the only time I've ever played Head Cave Live was one time at NAM last year I played one of our newer songs called Gathering Silence but yeah we're writing stuff right now So that project will probably have a new song out this year.

Nice. Probably a couple. But yeah, we got one right now. I'm pretty stoked on. Yeah, shit's hot, dude. It's fun, man. I love right. And that's all eight string.

Like, I have a rule with that project. Oh, really? I'm only using an eight string in that project. What about EP2? Is that it? It's all eight string. Oh, really? Every single heck gave song is an eight string guitar.

Because I don't want, like, with night verses, I have to bring all this shit. Like, if we tour, I have to bring all my guitars, all my, like, backups, like, all that stuff. I forgot you. I was EP 2. What's the song? It's, I think, a lied. Oh, the lies we choose. Yes, okay. I'm trying to find that. Yeah, the lies we choose. That's probably my favorite track on that, on that one. So that's, that's an A string. That's an A string, yeah. Why, it didn't really dong on me. I was listening to them. I was fucking sick, dude. Thanks. Yeah, that was, that song, I feel like I would like to re-release at some point with that project again, but I don't know if that really would make sense. But that's one of my favorite songs we've done. It kind of captures, like, what I like most about.

new metal, but also with like the modern like kind of riff style of like the gentie stuff, I guess. I don't know if I really call it like purely gent, but I definitely was listening to a lot of things like that that would kind of influence that. Yeah. But yeah, that was definitely like an exciting project to start. And then now it's like I feel like with that, like writing everything by myself musically. Yeah. It's kind of, it can be challenging. And I get, I put myself into positions where I'm like, I don't know if this is even good anymore. But recently, I've been, I've had a research and so of inspiration that has made it,

uh, a lot more fun to write. Yeah. What, um, did it did anything happen? I think some bands have put out stuff that kind of made me more inspired. Like I like, um, humanity's last breath and like things like that. Oh, yeah. They're just like, like, gnarly heavy and like, yeah. Um, some awful stuff's pretty sick that I listen to that got me fired up on that.

That's cool. Yeah. Um, good. So just like kind of the new wave of like heavy music. I think there's like some bands that just kind of like reinvigorated like why I like oh it's great heavy shit um I mean Mishoka's always in the back of my head with that stuff too but yeah I don't know so that and just also I think touring a lot more lately has you know when you tour and you watch bands play and you're away from your computer and all that stuff like it kind

of reinspires like you know wanting to go home and write because yeah you need that break sometimes from being in front of your computer and totally I'm there every day in front of my computer that's all I wake up pretty much open logic and I'm just there doing shit. So now that we're touring more again, like, it's nice to kind of have that refresh of, like, getting away from it and being outside and, you know, being, like, more traveling and, like, seeing stuff outside of my room. So how are you with, uh, how are you with drinking? Uh, I drink like, I don't really drink, like, much. So, like, if I'm on tour, I'll have, like, like, a beer here and there, but I'm not, I don't really get drunk and stuff like that.

Like, I've kind of, like, uh, phase that out only in the sense of, early on we first started touring and I was way more like I didn't have as many responsibilities and I didn't have as much care for like everything was new at that point and I was like excited to just be doing whatever and like oh we get free beers like in the green room like I was like excited about that like oh drink whatever so I would drink more I would take advantage of that more but I remember playing a show and I had drink a little too much before the show specifically we're out with Norma Jean I always remember because I got a lot of shit for it but we played a show with Norma Jean in this backyard festival somebody put on.

It was actually, it was kind of sick, but it was like, they basically just had an open bar. And, uh, oh my goodness. They, yeah, they set up like, I don't know. So I was drinking, it was the last show to tour. Norma Jean's like, oh, like, you got drinks. I were like, I'm drinking with them and stuff. And, uh, we go to play. And I was just like, dude, having pedals and having to set up on my cables, like all that stuff,

like, there's just too much to deal with. And I remember being sloppy. and after that my band was basically like never again. I was just like, okay, I get it. And then I proceeded to be sick through the whole rest of the long drive we had the next night. And our van front axle broke. So then we're just stranded for a bit,

had to get towed to like a repair shop at like 6 a.m. and just wait until they opened. And I'm just feeling terrible the whole time. Just hanging out the window, like just hating everything. And I was like, do why would I ever do this again? Like maybe if you're on a bus, us all the time and like maybe if you're like I don't know I don't I don't enjoy it enough to want to do that again so like these days that's definitely not a priority like I'll have a beer because I like the taste

of beer sometimes I just want a beer but I don't I don't drink like to get buzz anymore really it kind of just depends like everything's circumstantial for me in that way totally but yeah as far as shows and things like that no I don't like I won't ever get to that point again awesome man yeah and that was also just a one-off like that was just one time and it was enough for me to learn that it sucks and like feeling shitty on tour you already feel shitty on tour to start yeah so to add in like being hung over and all that stuff is i don't it just was never a thing for me you learned it's awesome man yeah what was it like for you uh your your second record you did with uh with ross robinson oh dude that yeah that was crazy uh so so so you were at the house in venice yeah correct

yeah yeah you guys were you there too yeah i was trying to do the timeline like did they go there right after us or right i think right before right right before so right right before so you were something was like i think right before yeah we went there in like 2016 or 2015 yeah other record came out in 2016 but uh that was a very crazy experience ross i love ross he's kind of a genius in his only you know he's got some crazy thoughts that i think no one else will ever have but i think like for our band it just was not quite what we were trying to sound like per se but also you were talking about this recently actually but like i'm glad the record exists because it was a very unique thing that happened.

And Ross basically became a fifth member of our band. And we had vocals at the time in this one. It's called Into the Vanishing Light. And this record is just like very unique in the way that like it would, we would have never written it this way. So like I had probably I had every single song on here, but we had like 20 songs demoed out completely. Like I had demoed everything with vocals like fully mixed at least on my end.

And I sent, we sent them all to Ross. And we get there, we bring all our gear to like, because he wants us to play the songs for him live. Oh, yeah, yeah. So we brought all our shit. And then when we show up, I have like my, I got a Black Star amp and like whatever. I had all my pedals.

Like I had my shit ready. And a lot of those songs, we had a lot of callback vocals. Like I did a lot of singing and our bass player did some singing. And just like that filled out the vocals. Like not harmonies, like harmonies, but also like parts where our singer would say something. And then we would do it like back.

So it would fill out like a whole chorus. And, when we go to set our stuff up, he's like, oh, actually I have stuff you guys can use. So I used his amp and Raleigh used his amp. And then he only gave us one vocal mic for our singer. Yeah. So I have a tone that's like an overdrive tone that's not clean. It's not distorted.

I don't have an option to switch between them. Did you use the Marshall? Probably. I don't actually, I don't even remember what I used. Marshall Head and Marshall Cab? Maybe. Yeah. Whatever he had there.

So like I didn't set up my shit. So I had his amp and I did not have. a high gain tone that a lot of our songs required. Yeah. I did not have a good clean tone. So I'm just sitting there like, man, I don't think you're going to understand what these songs really are intended to sound like. So I was kind of just like tripping on that in my end at least.

And whatever. So we play the songs to the best of our ability. There's vocals missing, obviously. There's like guitars are not really what they're supposed to be. So he records all of our songs that we're playing live. So we play, I think we played most of those at least. And I think we picked like our favorite.

15 or 10 or something like that to play. So then he records all of those and he's like, all right, you guys can go mess around for a couple hours. I'm going to like work on these. I'm like, all right. So we get back and he had basically restructured and rearranged certain songs and like

pretty much like took a wrench into all our shit and just like totally switch things up. And I was like, oh damn. Like this is not what I was expecting, but we're here. We're going to write it out because like it's Ross. You know, we made some of the best records ever. So we're like, we're going to do whatever he wants to do.

We're down. So we went through it and basically, like, it was an interesting process. Like, he is very hands-on and we didn't do that record to a click. It was very, uh, oh, yeah, of course. Yeah, so we had a Eric on drums, like, would play something and Ross would basically put a delay on his snare. And that was what dictated the click, yeah. The click, which was really weird sometimes because, like, his beats are crazy. So when you add delay to the snare, it just makes it crazy sounding.

And also, like, I don't know, that's just not what we were used to at that time. And we're fine to not use a click, but like in that context, it felt weird. And, yeah, it was just funny because, like, the songs were just not. And, like, he told me he didn't even listen to the demos. And so I'm just like, dude, I spent all this time making these demos and, like, you didn't listen to them. Like, I thought that was hilarious. But also, like, that means you don't even know what these songs really sound like. Was all he cared about was the core of the song, like, which was the melody and, like, the progressions and whatever.

And yeah, so that was interesting. And then you did that whole thing where like he would tell us or he would have our vocalist explain the song. Yeah. And then he would ask me like what's your take on his take on it. And I'm just like, man, I don't know. Like I never pay attention to the lyrics. I'm never like that guy. Yeah.

I only care about the melodies or like the actual notes and like what things are how things are happening in that way. But I never, I was never like focused on lyrics or like what he was doing. with them or whatever. That was always his thing. So I let him whatever he wanted to write. And so when he asked me, I never had good answers. I was just like, I don't know. And so like he stopped kind of picking on me in that way and just focused everyone else got more of the attention.

And then, yeah, so we did that, you know, hotboxing, that room, just like all intense, practicing for a couple hours. And then, honestly, like, the best thing about being on Venice is when he opens that door and you get the freaking fresh air coming in. Oh, it's crazy. It's so nice. But yeah, like he, so like I had pedals. He had a bunch of pedals as well. One thing that was really interesting with that record is I didn't double track any guitars.

So like it was purely like he wouldn't let me even have DIs. So like he just wanted in the moment whatever we were doing was just purely like in that, you know, whatever tones we dialed in like that's it. And I was kind of like freaking out about that a little bit because I was like well this isn't really like the tone that I want but whatever man. Like I'm just we're just gonna ride the wave. So yeah, we went through stuff kind of like, kind of like, you know, allowing ourselves to kind of like break ourselves down a bit in a way. Did you, did you have that already kind of well thought out? Because originally you were going to do this record with Will Putney, right? Right.

So you obviously went the opposite direction. Everybody loves Ross in like his history. Like he's done some amazing stuff, like straight up, like some of the best records. And because of that, everyone was like, well, let's just see what happens. Like let's just let him do what he wants. Whose idea was it? Well, we collectively, like, were fans of his stuff, so we wanted to have him produced. And then Will Putney was supposed to engineer it at this point.

And we were signed to Equal Vision already. And, like, everyone was supportive of the idea of involving him and stuff for sure. And Will was like, well, I'll just engineer and he can just produce. And like, it'll be the perfect combo. I'm like, yeah, for sure. But then something came up last minute and Will couldn't produce. He couldn't engineer it. So then Ross engineered it.

So now we're just in the hands of Ross, like, completely, which, again, like, I'm grateful everything exists as it is. And I learned a lot in that process too. And I learned, like, one of the biggest takeaways for me was I used to hit the open note and rely on the open note all the time as like the heavy note. And then he told you that you can't do the open note anymore. Yeah. Yeah.

So then there's moments where I would have to rewrite my riff a little bit to not do that. And I would set up the open note. So like if I had a part that was like, you know, based around. Right? He would then be like, well, don't, you're hitting it too much. It's not heavy. And I was like, in my head, I'm like, no, it's heavy. But then he's like, no, if you set it up like,

and then the open comes back, like you go like 3-1 open, then now the open has more value because you're not hitting it over and over and over. Totally. Stuff like that. And I was like, oh, that actually makes a lot of sense. And now I do think about things like that when I'm writing. Like I think about like all randomly like we'll channel that too. It's like, yeah, that Ross said that and that actually makes sense.

So it stuck with me. And also the chaos of like the guitars. that record like i he put me in positions that forced me to do things that i would not do naturally so like there is a part uh on the first track um i think it's called uh feature as history i love you day yeah um that first track has a part where he straight up reversed my guitar that i tracked and he was like learn this and i was like what i can't learn hell yeah i could put it like what doesn't make sense hell yeah and then i did it and i learned it and i was like oh fuck That's actually pretty cool.

I would have never done that. But yeah, sure. And so there's things where he like made things happen like that where we just would not have ever thought to do it. Yeah. That's awesome. It was an experience for sure. And I don't know that it was the best, like, second record for us, essentially,

because our first record was a very specific sound. The second record was pretty different from that. But I think it was a good, we needed to all do that, I think, to kind of learn more about ourselves and, like, learn, you know, what we're capable of to in a lot of ways and also when you're put under pressure like trying to impress Ross too at the same time like you kind of get this like the different mentality it's a different thing to do yeah um so I'm very grateful that we got to have that experience and I'm grateful for Ross allowing us to come do that too because I don't think we're typically the band that

like he would even want to work with in that way oh totally so it was kind of cool to like you know experience that together and um I think you put a lot like our vocalist Doug um he switched up pretty much like 80% of his melodies are totally different than the demos. And I like what he did a lot on the record. I think he's probably my favorite part. Like when I look back on it, like what Doug did and what he made Doug do is awesome. And like I think that stuff definitely came across better than maybe some of our demos would have. And it just kind of, I think, made him probably more inspired just to write some new stuff too.

And yeah, but he did funny stuff. like on like bass he had a bass there that had really old strings on it and he insisted that we did not change those strings and that's what we're using yeah yeah yeah and I'm just like dude like you got to change the strings like what do you mean like that's all I've ever known is you put fresh strings on before you track and he was like no like that sound of the bass right now as it is is perfect we're like okay so then we tracked it with that and I tracked with a few different guitars he did not like my amp so we did not use that I don't remember what amp we ended up using I want to say, fuck, it might have been a marshal.

It has been a marshal. Do you know what that martial is? Did he tell you? I don't remember. He didn't tell you? He probably did, but I probably forget. Dude. Yeah, that cab, I think the head is Ross's,

but the cab actually belongs to Monkey. Oh, cool. That's the cat they used for the first record. Life is peachy. Max tracked it, the head and cat for Roots. I think Mick used it for, Iowa. Oh, sick.

So, like the amp, like that headed in Cabo, like, yeah, it's got history. Legendary. So, of course, like, a guy like, there it is. That one right there. Oh, shit, yeah. Yeah, that had to be what he used. And that setup was so sick. Like, that, his, I loved his house set up in his studio.

And it was really cool. Actually, another thing, too, is we, I'm probably similar to you guys. Like, we tracked, like, in increments of, like, stupid. It's like, I didn't track guitars until, like, nighttime, usually. Nice. So the entire day, I'm just hanging out in his, freaking palace just on the roof watching like the beach whatever and I would pop down while people

were tracking or whatever but like I didn't have to do anything until the songs were done so like all the bass and drums would be tracked and edited to wherever he wanted it to be and then I would track guitars where my other dudes were not as lucky because Eric on drums would have to track drums first and he didn't have like the grid situation now that he needed it but like so he would do the drums that would be done and then Riley would come up and Ross something. sometimes wouldn't have everything like totally synced up perfectly in that way. So like rally would have to punch in and do parts on like really awkward timings. Oh yeah.

So like there'd be like it wouldn't it'd be like one, two, then. And it'd be like that's not like a counten. So it'd be time. And Ross would be like just feel it. And I'm just seeing there like laughing as I'm just like, oh my God. And by the time I went to track, everything was set up. So I had a lot easier of a time in that regard. But yeah, I mean, I get where he's coming from though.

Because like there's a different feel like what he does. is really just takes like the core of everything and just makes it like yeah it just becomes a different a different vibe when you're tracking there than it would be if you're with a click track where you know there's a fail safe every time like there's like a you can fall back on that you can rely on that if you need to copy and paste apart you can do that you know if you want to punch something in specifically just a little bit or something like that you can do that but with this setup it was definitely a lot more like you know you had to just be better also um you got to be something you got to be so you got to be sick. Yeah, and not double tracking was a trip too. Like that was one thing I was kind of nervous about

because I was like, we're using this Memory Man pedal, which kind of gave me like a fake stereo. It was like a stereo double guitar, but like not really. So it was like this weird tone that, yeah, it was the Memory Man stereo deluxe, I want to say. But it's like a very vintagey. Yeah, so it's an old version of that pedal. And it's an old boy. Yeah, it's old. It's looked old. And it sounded sick. And so that was one thing I remember thinking, like, when Will's gets, because Will mixed it. And I was always just thinking, like, man, when he gets these tracks, like, he's going to be like, what the hell is. Like, this is not what I expected.

Yeah, it pretty look like that pretty much. Yeah, it's a complete opposite of what. Wow, dude. It's like the opposite of what most, yeah, like, what most bands would do, especially, like, heavier bands. And, yeah, man, that, I got, like, I got, like, I got to say, like, I really, I was fortunate in my scenario, because I, I wasn't pressured to do anything that was awkward. It was more like he would just push me to do something crazier. So he'd be like, he would be on the floor turning pedal knobs while I'm playing and shit.

It's so sick. It's awesome. So I'm like watching him do shit. I'm like, damn, like it sounds crazy. But yeah, and he'd be like, he would just want me to like play gnarly shit. Like he had me do a solo. He's like, this solo is only going to have one note in it. Like go.

And I'm like, what? And he's like, one note. And I'd just be like, like, just doing all these like crazy bends to make it crazy It was in the song connecting hexes, if you ever want to hear that. So it's just a solo in that song. It was literally just me bending, like, one note and going all crazy with it. And it sounded pretty sick. And, like, I wouldn't, I probably wouldn't have done that.

And, like, I mean, I don't really write solos that much anyway, but like that. We're going to play it. Do you know where? It's probably, like, towards the middle end-ish. Yeah, maybe right around there. Yeah, after this chorus, that's coming up. Yeah. Oh, yeah, it's sick, dude.

That's sick. It's just one note. Hey, it's dope. It's cool, for sure. Sometimes only need you want one note. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing is I learned show like that where I'm like, okay, like, noise and chaos is sick. It doesn't have to be like a technical thing.

It can just be you just fully immersing yourself in something like that. And that was like a lot of fun in that way. Like I genuinely like, it was a lot of fun when I look back on my stuff, it's crazy. And like what the record did or didn't do or whatever, like as far as progressing our career, as far as like, you know, what our fans were expecting at the time. We didn't have that many at that point probably. But the idea of like what we were trying to do was different. But I think the end result is like an art piece that I don't think could have existed

if it wasn't for him being so like into it and hands on. It's art piece. Yeah. And it's, I'm grateful for that experience. And I'm grateful that it exists in that way. But yeah, it's crazy. I mean, and I feel like he does that with every band. Like he makes every band feel like a different beast than,

like anything else before or after what they did. Oh yeah. Like I think Norma Jean might be the only band that went there twice, if I remember right? Or no, but that's not true. Slip not to you, right? And maybe corn. Bansom went twice. Corn, slip knot. Who else went twice? I know Norma Jean did, so at least those three. Wow. It's very when a band goes back twice. Yeah. Corn actually technically went back three times. Oh shit. Technically. Yeah, so I mean he's done some some pretty epic records and like my favorite Limbiscuit record $3 bill y'all is so good is from that and like and that was the other cool thing too is when we would talk about his stuff like he had all those tracks ready to play back sometimes. Oh yeah yeah so like he would show us like some of the random takes from some of those records and you're just like fuck dude like Cory Taylor is just gnarly on vocals like he would just isolate his vocals and just like pro so sick yeah it's insane dude and like the way like he like he's you know, he gets in the people's heads and, like, brings out, like, the most raw emotion out of some of the vocalists.

Like, even Fred Ders back then, like, his screams were crazy on that record. Like, he was way more aggressive and crazy than he would be now. And, uh, yeah, so $3 billi-all, like, pollution on that song or that CD is, like, one of my favorite songs. Oh, dude, so sick. And, uh, yeah. And it's cool. Like, when you're there and knowing, like, he's worked with all these people and, like, you know, what he's gotten them to do. And, like, now you're also in it.

Like, I feel like everyone who's been the Ross probably has, like, a. like a connection in a way it's like everyone has that experience stays with you forever man for sure um did uh did he make you guys uh like did you guys had to have like the goose bunch before like uh eric doing doing drums like when he like dug into dug yeah sometimes like he would definitely it would be pretty intense like there'd be times where i feel like he would crack dog a bit just making him like experience what the meaning was to his lyrics even more than that than you probably even realize at times. And I think,

it's like, go. Yeah, yeah. And then you're like, you hear it. You get the goosebumps? For sure. Oh, nice. Sick. Yeah, that was definitely a thing.

Like, when you're there, dude, you're in it. Like, you're definitely in it. Like, you, like, yeah, you're definitely, like, immersed in everything that's happening. And I think the way that we would record live like that, like, we did all that. Like, so when we would track drums, I think we all were playing along with Eric. So, like, he was tracking drums and we were all playing too. Oh, yeah. So I think, like, that live band in a room,

element gets captured very well there and it's like not really something that you can get the same exact way without doing that so i think like that kind of like sound is like very specific and unique to doing it that way um yeah you you come out a different person for sure it's over like you're like you're different forever and it's like it's beachfront property in venice yeah beautiful it was right before it got really insane i remember like we uh we got out of there and then you need to moved there. He has seen like the homeless go up. Oh yeah. It was like in real time

but you guys and Scott I got that last little glimpse of Venice. It was nice dude. You're really on the beach. Yeah. You get out of that little room, that little door and you're on the beach. It's fucking crazy. It's awesome. And like I went home one time which I regretted doing but I just like I had to go home for a second.

And I went home and when I got back, I was only gone for a few hours and I got back and like the song we were working on that day He had pitch shifted all of my notes to just make new riffs. And I was just like, what is this song? Like, what is this? And like, I was getting text. Like, yo, you should get back here because like, shit's changing.

And I'm like, okay. And so I get back and literally like the song ended up being Vance of Black, I believe, on that record. And yeah, he rearranged like all of like my whole riff is not what it was. And that might actually be, I don't know if it's in major or not. But it definitely made it happier than whatever I had. before and I remember just being like man like I don't even know if I like this but like whatever we're here already like they already tracked other stuff so we'll just move on and I was like kind of tripping about it for a little bit like I can't ever leave again and I guess like I can't do that

but awesome man but yeah it's cool I mean I I have no like negative like vibes from that at all it's purely just it's just crazy that it happened that way but um special guy man for sure he is and yeah I'm I'm stoked to see like any band that goes goes through him and like what comes out of it like it's always different yeah it's always like what the fuck like like when you guys see guitars like he's crazy since you have two guitar players you're kind of able to sort of at least have two guitars right oh he does experiments with every band and i think we were the first band he did his still experiment where uh you mark a tracking at the same time that's it no shit yeah that's crazy and we were we were there every band goes in there

he'll try like an experiment and so with that particular moment we were the band You guys are standing up, tracking it at the same time. Standing up. That was another thing, yes. And then you're going to track at the same time. And you're also going to rock out. Yeah. So we were head banging.

And like, so that was, I think you took it to a few bands after. That's sick. But I mean, it was fun. It was fun. The standing up part's funny. I remember that. I was sitting one time and he was facing his computer. And I had already known that he wanted me to stand up.

I just was sitting because that's how I usually do something. And he was recording me, staring at staring at the computer and then he stopped and looked back and he's like stand up and i was like how the fuck how did you even know as i stood i'm like all right oh he just knows yeah he knows fucking wakes up and eats that fucking psycho salad yeah the troth yeah it's just monkey says a fucking trot the fucking leaves dude jesus yeah he had epic salads for sure i remember once one time uh i mean we're on like a thin budget for that and we went to like the grocery store and got like the cheapest food ever and put it in his fridge and I remember him being like what is this

baloney like just all pissed or like we'd get del taco and he'd be like shaking his head at us and stuff it's like sorry dude but yeah it was funny yeah definitely came out of a different person unfortunately we were in our late 20s and I didn't really uh wish I was I was I was more present I was also drinking too so I just wish I always look back those moments I'm like damn we fucking did that yeah dude He fucking changed my life, man. I wouldn't be here with that, Ross. You taught me about key changes.

Yeah. We definitely did some of those too. You know, because you're always like, you want to say that at the zero or here, but you're like, oh, you could like set the next part up by going up. Yeah. And then I'm starting to use that now. Chaos, chaos parts, dynamics. I know nothing about, like, dynamics.

So going from clean and dirty, like, quick and knowing how that worked. For sure. like oh shit all right cool and then trying to apply it now because you take all the lesson he has timeless lessons then when you get out of there you apply it to what you're doing and uh i think we're literally like we're i think we're about to actually literally almost 10 years later finally apply what because i still i i i go back to that record all the time like i learned the most out of that record i've done full records i'm like i didn't learn shit i i won't say who it is but uh like ross just taught me everything also what he did he gave me

the confidence back. Yeah. He made me feel like, oh shit, like I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, I guess I'm a guitar player, however that sounds. I'm not an arrogant way. I'm like, but he made me feel like me. For sure. I got that confidence back that I didn't even realize I lost. It's like a therapy session. Oh yeah. It was like a full on like therapy session. And, um, and I still look back at that record. I would argue that we didn't do that record. I will like, well, at what part of not, not be a band. Even though we came out and we lost for our money and a weird. We're, way we probably wouldn't of he rosses exposed he'll he'll he'll expose any bullshit that that you have within your band he exposed a lot yeah and uh he's he gave us all these all these new tools that's i still

haven't even fully applied yet yeah no it's true and that's definitely all of our takeaway i think we all just kind of feel that way everyone has their own individual experience oh totally oh totally um and it's cool man i feel like literally every band has that same kind of like takeaway and i think uh I don't know. It's cool because it doesn't really matter what genre you are. Like you work with him, he's going to find his way to do what he does. So it's like it doesn't really matter. Yeah, you're going to get Rossed, dude. Yeah.

He's one of my favorite humans, man. I got to get him back in here. Oh, did you have him in here before? He was episode like 11. Oh, nice. I didn't even know what the fuck I was doing at that point. Then I have him back with the experience with the flow will be so fucking cool. I just feel bad because I just want to, I know he was done talking, you know,

Oh, yeah, yeah. And I know he'll probably do it just because it's me. It's a funny stigma. Like, I get where he's coming from. But, like, that was a sick time of music. Like, he made some shit happen. Like, he was there. He literally was in those rooms.

And he'll never be a producer like Ross, I think, ever again. No way. No, even now, the way music is now. Like, dude. Well, even less so for sure. Yeah, the more time passes, the more the shit he's done is like, that's, that's, that might never. happen ever again, dude.

No, I don't think so. I mean, I think it would be forced if so. Like, I feel like somebody would be trying to do what he's done. Totally. And I think he comes from a very genuine, like, crazy place. Like, he comes from a place where I think, like, he's tapped into some shit that, like, no one else is. So I think he'll definitely be, like, he'll be go down in history as, like, a very unique producer.

Like, he's, like, the only one that does that shit. At least I've ever known of. One of the best of all time. Yeah, definitely. Especially with the new metal like revival now. It's like it's all stems from Ross. Yeah. No, those records, I mean, what was your favorite record from like that era?

Oh my gosh. It's so hard, dude. I don't know. What about band? Fuck. It might be life is peachy. Oh, yeah? Yeah, I might be like, life is peachy.

A second record and then what they would do for that, they took on, they went on to follow the leader. And Ross shared a few stories. about that record too and then his stories too and when we starts talking you're like oh yeah stories are great it's like jesus dude yeah and like i mean at the drive-in was another one for us that was a that was a big reason why we wanted to go to him yeah um because that relationship of command is like one of our favorite collective records and uh yeah like that i mean he's worked with pretty much several of my favorite guitar players so that's pretty sick of west borland like we used actually his

uh space echo i think it was Yeah. But he had like a really crazy old one. Like I forget, I don't think it was a space echo. I'm pretty sure. But we used that for delay and it was like on like a tape. Yeah, there you go. Oh, that thing, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So we used that. We used that and. Tape Echo, the RE 201. Yeah, he like let us borrow it, which is pretty cool. That thing is freaking awesome, dude. You think about, oh yeah, he's worked with like. Actually, I have my favorite tarb players.

This holy grail pedal. I have because of that session we did with him. Oh, nice. Yeah, he, that, that tone was so significant to a lot of the guitar and bass tones that I was like, shit, I have to get that pedal. But now it's like a mainstay for sure. Did he give you any compliments that, uh, that state, stay with you? He gave me actually a lot.

He gave me a lot of compliments. Oh, it's cool. Which was really cool. Like he was very, uh, stoked on when I would track, I feel like he got really stoked. And, uh, he said, I think he said I was the star boy of like the group or whatever like that was like something like that where I was just like oh shit all right that's dope but like yeah he was like really it was funny because like I don't know there's I think very highly of every band member I've

had so like it's funny that I don't know to get called out like that was pretty funny but yeah he was he was stoked on on what I was doing and he pushed me like he I would say mess with me the least like he gave me a lot more room to like just be do what I do. Nice. And didn't really like mess with me too much. Like he, yeah,

he messed with my tones and stuff, but he didn't like, uh, like there'd be, there'd be times where like, Riley was tracking bass and he would want to piss Riley off to make him strum harder. Oh yeah.

So sometimes you'd like push him or like he would like, yell at him like harder, hard and shit like that. And like with me, I feel like he was less intense and more like, how do we make what you're doing sound the craziest? Like, yeah.

It wasn't so much like he wanted to like snap me. It's just he, wanted to get the most out of me, which I feel like was a different vibe than some of the other dudes had to go through. But I mean, we're, yeah, we're all there together in it watching. So I felt sometimes like the pressure for someone else. I was like, fuck, like, that sucks. Yeah. That's what they get, man. I still get nervous of, I don't, I don't even text them because I still, I still get nervous. I fucking love him so much, man. I miss him a lot, but I'm like, I don't want, oh, fuck. He's just.

It's probably busy. You know, all at the, like, your mind games to play yourself? Did, uh, do anyone crazy ever walk in? Uh, we, we had a few. Somebody, I can't remember. Yeah, somebody did. I can't remember who it was right now.

They'll just walk in. Yeah. Like, what the fuck? What the fuck are you doing here, man? Just cruising to show up here. Yeah, that's somebody, it was a drummer. I can't remember who it was right now, though. Oh, yeah, I forgot.

He walked into a drummer. Wow. Yeah, he was crazy. Yeah, then did you guys have a, engineer for that. Yeah, it seemed was lightning. Oh, Lightning, yeah. So Lightning was supposed to be Will's, like Willow had to bail. Lightning was supposed to do it, and then Lightning

had the bail. Oh, what? And Ross just did the whole thing. Oh, shit. And yeah, yeah, so that's what happened. But yeah, Lightning was supposed to also help us out. I think he, like, set it up. He, like, set Ross up with all the like connections and shit. Yeah. And then he took off. Oh, my gosh, dude. When, um,

who walked in one time? The drummer of Mana, Alex, walked in. Um, The big one for me, you know, sometimes you go do like a phase, you're jamming one band like a lot where it's like, I want to why I'm in like this incubus phase right now. Yeah. Like just for somebody, right before that book, I was just jamming like, make yourself in science just like obsessively. Oh, and why. And literally, I guess, because you know, so he has like the tracking room and then the doors to the fucking beach.

And then this guy just walks in, this fucking Brandon Boyd. It walks in. I was like, oh, you're a real person. I fucking forgot you're even a real person. That's sick. And Ross does like, he, everything, Ross Robertson is he's, he's a mere for better or or for worse. He'll like mirror, it's mere you.

So for me, it was half great, half bad because I was in a weird place in my life, but he was great. He's also, and he'll say things so pure. Yeah. I call it, Ross is a pure. guy and then he's like oh you guys like in gibis or some oh he brandon boy's right right here he's like like nonchalite we're all it's like oh my god he almost uh it's funny and and i'm gonna get back to uh to you guys he almost did a song with us oh yeah because he was house sitting like next

door or something and uh i'd have been sick to hear him all you guys stuff oh i've been fucking sick dude uh yeah edie had the idea hey he should do a song and uh since today today I gotta give credit to a Brandon man He made me rethink how I handle new music And he asked him Literally one day He fucking Brandon came back

And he jammed a song And he A song that we thought it might be cool And gotta give him credit man He sat there He jammed it He like was doing like that Feeling the song

I was like damn that's He's cool as hell He didn't he didn't have to do that It's cool man And then you know fast forward He ended up doing a song for you guys Yeah yeah It's dope

Yeah he was awesome That was really, really cool. I mean, we've all been fans of Inkebis and his, and, like, obviously he's a freaking, like, one of the best singers ever, especially in rock. And that was cool. Like, our drummer, Eric did some stuff, like, with his art with him.

They had some collabs in, like, I think it's called Moonlight Collective, I remember right? And, yeah, it's like Brandon's art collective. And so Eric did stuff with him, and then we had some songs that were kind of, like, sort of outliers, like we weren't sure what they,

we're supposed to do for our record, but also like we liked them. Yeah. So we're like this one would probably be sick with vocals. So we kind of like had that in mind. We wanted to get a couple, you know, features at some point with our stuff. And so we had this one song which ended up being glishing prisms and we just sent him where basically like they talked and he was like, oh, would you be down to like check out a song and try something maybe and I think something like that. And so we sent him the song. He sent something back not too long after and it was like pretty much, you know, one of those situations where you get it back and you're just like, yeah, it's good.

Also, like, no notes really. So, like, it's pretty sick. And to hear him, like, he was so cool about it, too. Like, he sent us his stems. And, like, I had all his, like, raw takes. And I'm just like, dude, he's so fucking, he's so good. He's such a good singer. And just hearing him with, like, no processing and stuff.

You're just like, damn, he's a real deal. Yeah. And so, anyway, we did that song. He came out and did a music video with us. And it was cool hanging with him that day. like he's just like so just cool like chill whatever and like was just down like he was down for whatever we needed to do um no like ego whatsoever at all just super cool and uh he actually i was talking to him about the fractal stuff and just like kind of like my rig a little bit just talking

about his guitar player mike as well um because i think that guy's a really sick guitar player too yeah one of the best and he said he has a duplicate pedal board so like he has an a and a b board that are the same exact build. So if something happens with one, they swap that in real quick. And I was like, damn, what a sick thing to do. Like, nobody can really travel with two boards. Like that, I feel like that's so sick.

Yeah, that's dope. So, yeah, but he was awesome. That was definitely one of our coolest things we've gotten to do. And he killed the song. I mean, I can't picture that song any other way. So that was sick. Yeah, I would like to do more than at some point. I feel like he fits in with our vibe very well.

And like, yeah, it's sick. It's funny that the song came on. And I wasn't, I wasn't surprised. Oh, yeah, it fits. Oh, that sounds a lot like Brandon Boy, because I was just like had the phone going and press play. So it's a Brandon Boy. Oh, shit, it is.

Of course. It makes sense. Yeah, that chorus is really good. That was like one of my favorite moments. And yeah, that, I don't know, that song just worked out really well. And he got the video? Yeah, in the video. That was a trip for sure.

That's a work of God. Yeah, dude. I mean, he was down. And, like, yeah, we made it happen. One of these days would be cool to play. that song live with them too we'll see if we ever play locally we've just been living in europe for the last couple years but it'd be sick that's awesome you guys haven't done much in the states huh no we've been focused on well because we did the tool tour and that kind of set up the trajectory

out there for a bit oh so we got that tour which was in 20 24 yeah last last year yeah yeah June last year so we did that tour and then um pretty much once we had that set up it was like well we just played arenas for a month so we should probably keep going out there because we just hopefully got some new fans out of that. And I think we did. So then we went into Pliny after that, which was sick out there. That was a really cool tour. I love those dudes. And then we went into Animals as Leaders a couple months after that earlier this year. And then now we're doing our own headliner in September out there. Yeah, it's coming up in September, huh? Yeah. We got a little under, or a little over a month out. And that'll be our first like real headliner out there. We've done a few.

like stint like little things but this is like our first like like official like full run nice and we're bringing out this band dune who's really sick um they're gonna fit really well i'm stoked to watch them dune yeah dune okay yeah dv any and uh oh okay we played with them in paris at this festival and it was sick because like we're we were setting up on the stage while they were playing so we're like setting up like getting ready behind them yeah and i was just watching him like down this band's sick and like me and eric were just kind of watching them like stoked on them and then uh when it came time to like pick a support like they were available and down and i was like perfect like that's like exactly the kind of band we want to take out nice um yeah

i feel like they they'll be really cool good fit they're like heavy kind of like in that hydra headish kind of world like ISIS and uh all that kind of like old man gloomy kind of stuff maybe um yeah they're cool so that'll be good and then um yeah i don't know we will be we do have something that's lining up in the States. I don't think I can say yet, but we will be doing something next year. So yeah, it's coming. And that's definitely like something I've been wanting to do.

I've been wanting to play at U.S. for, I mean, we all have wanting to play at U.S., but it's just hard, dude. Touring is expensive and it's kind of a hard thing to really justify sometimes. Oh, totally. And not to mention, like, you know, just personal life stuff. Like everyone has something, you know, important to deal with, whether it's family or whatever and like that kind of situation it's it's harder to leave if you're

not going to be like you know yeah coming home with something or like uh yeah guaranteeing that you know you're actually progressing the band because touring doesn't always do that like you can tour and it it might not do anything you might have like an increase of Spotify listeners for like a month and then it's back to whatever to you so none it does that we haven't an issue actually that's yeah it's true I mean like, I don't know. Like, I like touring. Everyone likes playing shows. Like, it's not about that.

Like, when you see people complaining like, oh, you never come here or whatever, it's like, dude, if we could be everywhere, we would. Like, every band wants to play shows everywhere to people. But, like, it's the getting to the shows. It's like getting the crew. It's getting all your, you know, all your gear there. It's like there's a lot involved in touring that I feel like doesn't really like always come to light for a lot of, I guess, fans or listeners or whatever that don't maybe understand that. Obviously a lot also do, but I think like, yeah, I don't know. And U.S. specifically is kind of rough because like the drives are longer.

Like it's just more challenging. I think Europe right now, we're in a better spot. Like we have better things happening out there right now. So it's a lot easier for us to do those tours and not stress too hard about it. But the U.S. is definitely, it's a little more complicated. But we got something cool. I'm stoked to do. So that'll be good.

Great, man. Yeah. I was pretty digging the riff for Rose Wire. Oh, thank you. Thanks, man. Yeah, the intro to the verse. Yeah. Is that on the 8?

It's on the 8. I'll see if I can play it. Dude, can we jamming out real quick? Yeah. I apologize if I, if I slop it up. Let's see. Dude, let's slop it up, dude. That's one thing about this podcast,

players need to realize. You got to know how to play, man. Great, it sounds hot. Yeah, the camp. People are scared, dude. I'm scared. I'm scared for you, dude. Alright. Okay, I do a one one question. How do you write something like that? Do you actually,

do you hear it first? Are you just sitting there like trying to like come up to something? Like what how does that come up? Honestly, that one I think I wrote that intro riff like by itself like thinking because like, you know with Instagram like there's a certain type of Instagram riff where it's like you want to like I guess like to impress or whatever like it has to be a certain level of like technical like ability or whatever. So sometimes I've written stuff with that in mind, which is not a way I think most people should, right? But sometimes it creates more of an urgency or like a thing in you that like you want to do more in a riff. So like with that one, I actually wrote that thinking like, okay, I'm going to write something harder right now for myself that might be good to post or some shit. So I was just jamming and like that riff kind of like came up.

I also had a this like groove that a new pastry made and get good drums. It's like they have like their groove packs and had one of his beats. I was kind of jamming over that and that's where this riff started. Oh wow. And yeah, we actually that the working title for that song was a new for a bit because of that. But um, shout out of Newt, one of my favorite drummers too. But yeah, this riff like the. Like I was just thinking, I guess, like, how to do a lot with every string.

Like, I wanted to incorporate the entire guitar. I wanted to have harmonics, like some of the sweeping in there. And like also thinking, I don't know. I guess like sometimes that stuff just kind of flows out of me. Like I don't always sit and try to like work on bit by bit. It kind of just like I'll jam over and over. And oftentimes I do write to drums. Like I'll have a drum loop.

just going. Yeah. And that'll kind of guide me, I mean, it guides the feel and pace, obviously, but it also gives me, like,

things to, like, walk into. Yeah. So I'll think about, like, the kick specifically or, like,

maybe a symbol pattern or whatever. Yeah. And sometimes unconsciously or both, you know, unconsciously and unconsciously, I'll latch onto those things. And so that'll make me do certain things on guitar. Mm-hmm.

So oftentimes I write to drums. And what's cool about the MIDI drums and, like, all that situation is you can isolate the kit and like parts of the kit. So like I might write and actually way back to the Twitch references and stuff when you get stuck with songwriting or you hit a writer's block. If you listen to the drums, hopefully if the beats like a little more interesting than normal,

say like they're doing a symbol pattern or a snare pattern or like there's an off like weird snare feel to it or whatever it is. You can just single out that part. Convierte your passion in a business with Shopify and bathe records of ventas with the form of pay with better conversion of the world. Has heard the best conversion

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on Shopify at record's so like I'll write sometimes

just to a kick and I'll just that kick and then bring the rest of the drums back. And now I have this weird riff because it only focus on one part of the kit, but it's locked in. But it's locked in a way that like you might not have done

if you just wrote to the entire beat at once. So sometimes I'll do that. Like I'll isolate symbols or tom's or whatever it is and just focus on that piece of the kit, which brings me into a position or takes me to a position that's a little bit weirder. But it's still on time, like whatever. So when you bring the kit back, it feels like a cool thing. But like this one, I think that's kind of where I was at. I was just trying to challenge myself to write something just to post like for the day or whatever. And you know, Instagram's such a weird thing. Like I, I don't, I don't like writing just for that as much lately. Like it's more like if I'm writing something I like, I'll share it. But there was a time where I was like, I just want to like get more of a following on social media

just because it's helpful for everything. Oh, sure. Everything translates into, you know, everything else. and I actually had two videos that randomly popped off like crazy on there for no real reason. Like I was posting for a long time. Yeah, those two right there. So this is one of my solo songs called Celestia. And this riff, I don't really know why, but like 108,000 likes. I think it cleared a million views. And like, I don't know why this.

Like, I'm not, I don't know. Why? Yeah. Like, I like the riff. I like the thing. It's cool. But, or I was, like, happy with it. But for some reason, it's just connected with a lot of people.

And this other one, too, that ended up being, we put it on our new record called ASCA. Yeah, the one next to that, like, similar numbers pretty much. And, like, this one, I called it Half Moon. I put it out as my solo song. And, yeah, it just did really well on there. And this actually started off me wanting to put out more solo songs more seriously. Because, like, I was doing the Twitch stuff and I was doing my heavy music on the string and I was just putting those out of solo songs.

But I didn't really, like, sit and write songs with the intent of being like my solo songs. It was more just like, here's shit I wrote on Twitch. Like, I throw it on band camp, whatever. Yeah. And that riff did so well on Instagram. And I was like, well, shit, there's something to this. I should probably try to put this out as a full song and just see what happens. release it. So I did. And it was cool. And that kind of like sparked me wanting to do that more.

So then I wrote that other one. And then that was like the second song I put out as like an official solo song, I would say. And then, um, yeah, I've just been doing that. And then I put out an EP called Hover. That's just purely guitar only. It's just one guitar track. Nice. That's all it is. And I only did that thinking like, you know, because I people who like those riffs and like a lot of what I post that's like the more ambient kind of like spacey guitar stuff yeah they'll uh oh yeah i did that song with toby too um damn i haven't looked at my like luxury in a bit i should probably update it but anyway so i put out uh those two songs and like i guess like the vibe that i was getting from people is they really liked the kind of clean ambient stuff and i like writing that stuff

and that's kind of what i naturally do anyway like i i will naturally pick up my guitar have a stereo So delay clean track on and I'll just jam. Like I'll like, you know, we're doing earlier. I'll just play some shit. And because of that, I was like, well, I'm just going to put an EP out that's just purely this. Yeah. You know, people want it. Like here kind of thing.

Like this is why I do this naturally. Like I'm just going to release it. So I put out eight tracks. It's just guitar only. And like I have had the thought one day of like maybe recreating them into songs with a full band vibe. Like have like drums and bass and stuff. Cool. Just to see what it would be like.

But, uh, yeah. those are all just ideas. Hover was like kind of my favorite probably from that one which I did on this and then I made a music video for it that's all just uh AI like just generating like AI videos which like I know everyone has like weird uh perspectives on but I like I like AI stuff I think it's fun to mess with and like I get you know why people get upset about it but like I'm not an artist I can't draw shit I can't I can't do any CGI so having the ability to like do something creative. Oh wow. That is purely like from, you know, it's, it's my imagination as far as like what starts it off. But like it's a fun thing to put together. So like this was me taking mid-jorney

images and turning them into video by through another AI. And then yeah, I just put the song to it basically. Your roofs are very spacey. It's just, I don't know. I've always kind of gravitated towards that sound. Also, it feels like you're sad and it feels like you're on drugs. So I mean, yeah. No, it's not a bad thing. It's good. Yeah, no, I think the sadness is a, I don't know. I always have that overtone to stuff, I guess, but I'm not like a sad person.

Like I don't sit at home like depressed or some shit, but I definitely feel that most in music. Like that's my favorite kind of stuff. You're like, oh shit, it's fucking cool. But yeah, it's a trip with these things. I mean, it's even better now. Like this is like, I made the. this like two years ago, but like it's better now like the, I mean like getting him to open that door and like, you know, the whole thing was just like him kind of this astronaut finding like his way

to his spaceship and then flying away. I don't know why I thought that. But this is what I did. So I generated all these images and it's like crazy like what you're able to do as somebody like me who has no skills in this department whatsoever. And I can still do something that is like a some type of video. And there's just something cool to put with the music. and it takes a long time to generate the proper things that you want out of it. Yeah. This ending always cracked me up, but I don't really know. Like, he just, I guess, dies.

I don't know why I did that, but that was the shot that looked the coolest to me. These reps are too sad. It's over. But yeah, I've always liked that stuff like the, I mean, that one, I forgot how to play my own song. But yeah, that kind of, like, mood is always my favorite to kind of mess with, especially on the 8th string. I was kind of tripped out because I was listening to you play.

It's obviously in the stereo. It sounds great. And I'm just watching that. I was getting like a real time. It fits the video, dude. For sure. Do you have like a favorite riff or something? Like in general or like my own stuff?

Yeah, two questions. Because I don't like the question of favorite riffs because it's too opening it. Someone has a riff. It's kind of like, oh, then what's the back story? Yeah, you have a favorite riff in general? Riff? I have to think about that. But, like, moment, the solo and parabola from Tool.

Oh, shit. That's one of my favorite. I actually covered it in a video for metal injection. But that moment, like, it's not a riff. It's a solo. But, like, that tone, the notes, the part, the moment of the song is, like, one of my favorite things in general in music. Like, I love that part. How do you play?

Man, I don't know if I remember right now. Yeah, I don't think I could do it right now. to be honest. But that, I learned it at one point, for sure. I learned it all by ear. So, like, that's a, like, I didn't like, year?

Yeah, I learned it all by year. So I think I got it. Freak. I think I got it. But I learned it by ear and I tried to get all the nuances that you did with the Pinch Rheanronics and stuff. Crazy by ear, man. Yeah.

Well, that's the thing. Like, I feel like the learning by ear is helpful because it kind of like shows you, I don't know. Like, you start hearing repetition in music in a way where, like, you can know what notes are or what frets are being played even. So like, yeah, I've learned so much just by playing music and, like, listening to what other people are doing that, like, I can tell most of the time,

oh, that I can tell most of the time that there is, like, an open note in a song. Then I can tell what tuning they're probably in. So I'll listen for that first. I always listen to like, okay, where's the open note? But you can tell when a band's, like, fretting something or when there is an open note. And if they're hitting an open note here, then that means that their guitar is roughly in that tuning.

so it might be A or whatever it is. Yeah, the full video type of Nick Metal Injection. Do you, do you have like a favorite like Nyper's Rift? That Rosewire one is pretty up there, I guess. And then Carmel wheel, we have, it's at the end of the video, I think, towards the end. But I cover a bunch of stuff in here. This is actually, so this thing was the riffs that taught me. This was like all, I covered a bunch of stuff like thrice.

that was one of my favorite ones back in the day nice um but yeah night versus caramel wheel's intro I really like a lot it's not

it's kind of a riff but uh yeah that one let's see we can try it is it on on the C boy yeah yeah that's one you see is that guitar have two inputs

yeah so this has the Piazo or Paiso oh yeah got it do you know how to say that is it Piazo I think you got it. There's a Paizo.

I never know. Yeah. So this is where I cover a tool. But yeah, that, like this part. Taylorness all by ear? Yeah. Nice. We're gonna get a flag like quit.

Yeah, so. I re-recorded it at least. It won't be the same. Although, although those will fuck you sometimes. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that situation. That song always has had some kind of like depth to me that I feel like just checks like a certain box in my head of what I like in music.

And that one is one of my favorites. I mean, Raging Us the Machine. Oh, No Your Enemy. That's one of my favorite riffs. Oh, really? Oh, it was a great riff. Uh,

I'll put that. Yeah, when they played that at Woodstock, I was like, what song is that? That's a sick song. Dude, know your enemy is so good. Yeah. And, yeah, there's so many freaking riffs. I mean, honestly, it's an obvious one for a lot of people, but the freaking CKY riff

Dan in it, like 96- Oh, sure. That's undeniably one of the best riffs ever. Like, I don't know. Yeah. I feel like if you think of riffs, you have to give that one its credit. That one's so freaking good.

It's one of the best riffs of all the time. I never, and that's funny, I watched the video, because I watched that podcast you do with him, and when he played it, I was like, oh, shit, I've been playing it wrong forever. Like, I literally like...

Oh, it's funny. I'll ask people how to play that riff, and they've all taught me way wrong. It's why I don't listen to a lot of people anymore. He was playing it, like, up here right yeah yeah and i always thought it was like oh shit i always thought it was like right here i'm gonna mess it up now whatever um but i i was doing it totally wrong obviously right now it's a weird riff man but it's so sick he has a lot of really cool riffs he was a cool guitar player

no he's a fucking riff master dude yeah okay so this would this be considered your favorite Knit versus the Rift, you think? I think so. I think this is one of my favorite night versus riffs. It's just like, it's really fun to play. It's just, like, heavy. And it has a lot of effects. So, like, this one...

So this, actually, this setting in the Axe Effects is me mimicking this Pyramid's pedal. So this is trying to cover what this does. Nice. So actually, I might as well just put that on now that I think about it. Tapting thing. You get tapped up.

So with the ricochet, I pretty much have it set like this. That's sick, dude. So those two back to back. What makes that your favorite? I think it's just the feel. Like when we play that, it just starts. Like, that's the start of the song.

It's like, d-da-da-da-da-da-and-and-it. And it just like the feel of it live, like when we played that live, that was always one that. It just felt, like, it felt cool on stage, like playing, like, together. It's, like, swings. So it kind of has, like, a feel to it like that. Yeah. And I think it's just, it's heavy. And, like, I always felt like the reaction in the crowd was immediate.

Like, you know, you sometimes just have songs where everyone was just, like immediately like you do it yeah yeah so it just has like an energy to it i'm sure there's other riffs i'm not thinking of but yeah that one's fun um how how did uh how did you write that one that actually surprisingly i wrote i wrote that on twitch with eric so we were he was on my stream and we were trying to do a night versus writing session oh wow and he had possibly given me some drums i believe to write to uh i think that's what it was like he gave me a couple beats and uh the was for me to write to them. That was like what we're doing. So that was one of my first goes at it. Like I just wrote some shit like that and that stuck and we're both just like,

that's cool. All right. And then we wrote like, I actually have a solo in that song. The solo is probably one of my favorite parts too. But that I wrote on Twitch line. It was actually, it was messed up because I wrote it in one take on Twitch. It's just one pass through. And then I lost the, I didn't save the video of me doing it. Oh yeah, yeah. And I didn't think to either, but like I didn't know at that point if that would be what actually was going to be on the record and shit. So like we did it and then like later I had to relearn it by ear and I was just like damn it dude. Like there's so much pitch shifting and stuff in it that it was really hard for me to remember like what I actually did. But I figured it out pretty close. I'm gonna try. I haven't played this one

in a second. That's kind of like just a chaos sound but that uh... Dude, we're taking off somewhere, you. I don't know. We're fucking going to space, dude. Yeah. That one's trippy to play. But that's purely like the whammy. Like what's interesting too is that this whammy is like new. So this one isn't as worn in.

Oh, yes. So like all these little like quick things like they're a little harder to do. My other pedal I've used for so long that it's super loose. So it doesn't even stay up. Oh wow. But because of that I can shake the whammy like crazy. Okay. So it like creates this like kind of crazy sound that you can't really do without

having like a really worn in expression pedal I guess. But yeah there's also yeah this one in Phoenix too real quick. Dude heck yeah dude we're fucking riffing dude usually I'll play like like a riff with you but your your riffs are so out of my wheelhouse. I was like I don't even know where to start dude. So this one this is in from the gallery of sleep uh Phoenix on that record Phoenix Levitation and this has like this one heavy part that is like with the shaky ramie and yeah it's really cool with the the really one-in-one it goes into like this other thing but like that kind of like vibe with that shaky thing I feel like that I was like nice dude yeah I don't know but yeah I mean I like I

like I haven't played with many other guitar players in a long time like I'm kind of like so used to covering as much ground as I can that it's like funny playing with other people because I'm like, wait, I need to like refrain from trying to always have drone notes and all as like extra shit and try to like find like a place where we both make sense. You're like you're kind of have like a, kind of have a dream job. You don't got to deal with a singer. You don't get to deal with other guitar player. That's,

that's sick. That might be the, that the sickest thing ever. It is pretty cool. I will say having the ability to be the only guitar player allows me to a lot of flexibility between when I want I play rhythm or lead or like in the middle. Yeah. And a bass player who I play with Riley, who has like a good sense of like, you know, holding down like a really heavy low end as well, but then also switching to really high stuff.

So there's moments on our record, on both of our records, where he's playing a lead and I'm playing a rhythm. So like he'll shoot up to do what seems like a guitar solo, but it's actually a bass solo. And I'm playing like a riff under him or whatever under him. And it's a fun dynamic because. what else is cool is he doesn't he only plays on a four string and he never changes tuning so like he's always for the most part never changes tunings he's usually in drop c and i'll be on my eight string so like he'll be hitting the fifth fret when i'm hitting open but then there's times where he's hitting open

and i'm fretting something so like the contrast of like the thick bass open string is different than my open string even if he's technically in a higher tuning it's kind of crazy all that all works but yeah like and in head cave when i write in that and it's all eight string. The first two EPs, I played, I played bass on it, and I tuned to the bass to drop A sharp, so that the seventh fret was the open note. But then I think the fifth fret on the guitar

was the open on bass or something like that. So the contrast of those notes, kind of like blending together is like really sick. Yeah. It creates like a, it sometimes is cooler than just playing the straight octave underneath on base. Yeah. So having that kind of like dynamic, I always like.

But yeah, I don't know. One guitar player is nice for sure. I mean, it would be cool to have two guitars sometimes, but I'm very, uh, like, as it stands right now, being the only guitar player, I'm 100% against adding a second guitar ever. So like, if somebody's ever like, it's kind of useless now. Well, you know, some people are like, like, oh, it'd really be cool if you put like a rhythm under this lead or whatever. And it's like, yeah, it'll sound bigger. But like, that's not what it sounds like live. And I'm not going to put a guitar track to make up for like something, you know? So I always was very conscious of trying to sound as big as I can when needed, but not relying on extra guitars that no one's playing. Crutch, yeah. Like, we don't have any tracks on the Nive versus plays. Like, everything we do, we're triggering ourselves. And, like, our drummer has, like, the SPD pad or SPDS, whatever it's called.

And he's triggering a lot of the sounds himself on there. And then everything I'm doing, like, on guitar and, like, bass and stuff. We all do it ourselves. Like, we're very anti-having, like, extra layers of instrument. instruments that no one's doing. Wow. And there's nothing wrong. People want to do that.

I get it. But like we just write that way. So we write with the intent that we're always going to play what we do live. I think that's like a pretty important thing to me. And when I watch other bands, like I hope that they're also doing that. Sometimes they don't and it's whatever. But to me it's like, why would you write stuff that no one's going to be performing live? Like you go watch a band and no one's like, you're hearing sounds that no one's creating.

And you're kind of like what am I listening to? Yeah, that's tough. It's tough, man. Yeah, and yeah, I don't know. I mean, but I would say we're in the minority of that. I think most bands do have tracks and do rely on that to fill out their sound and sound big and probably sound bigger than we could in that sense. But I don't know.

That's just always been what I liked. Like all the bands I listened to growing up, you know, between deaf tones and Mars Vulta, tool rage, like they all have one guitar player. And some of them, like Omar, he might have extra guitars going on on the record, but live, it's always just him. And all those bands, like it's just them, at least for the most part. Maybe they change it up here and there. But I feel like it's usually just, actually, Deftown's, I guess, have two guitars.

Chino plays guitar too. But, yeah, whatever. I was just, like, gravitated towards that and trying to be, like, the only guitar. Like, I think that's, like, a cool thing to be able to guarantee, I guess. You figure it out. It's cool, man. I don't know you guys didn't use tracks. It's cool.

Yeah, I mean, we. Especially now. It's awesome. Like, we trigger stuff, but if there's extra instruments, like, Eric's, like, playing it. Like, maybe there's, like, a violin sound, but he's hitting the notes of violin. So it's like, it's not, like, I don't know. We just don't have, like, violent just happening magically. And you guys are your own fucking band, dude. We try.

I mean, we've been... Own band. No one like you guys. Yeah, we've just been doing it. We've been playing together forever, so it's kind of like, uh, it's just... It's not really something we even really think about all the time. We just kind of just have done things, like how we do. And I guess it's definitely one of those things like where it's a long play.

Yeah. Like we are absolutely doing a long play of like, you know, we didn't change anything about ourselves to adapt to any scene or trend or whatever. It's just like even going instrumental, like you could argue that like that was trendy. But like it just made sense for us. We've been playing even when we had a singer, we'd write all of our songs instrumentally first entirely, like verse chorus, everything. and we would send it to a singer.

And in that case, Doug, we sent it to him and he would send us ideas back or we wait until he'd come out in person. And we never, like, straight from that. We always wrote together in a room. Even in the, like, the time before we had him, we had this band of Sound Archives. That broke up, or we didn't have a singer anymore.

The three of us kept going instrumentally, like just life. Like, we didn't even, we had no following or anything like that, really. And we would just play anywhere and everywhere just to keep our chops up. So we'd play dive bars. We'd play freaking GameWorks. Like, we played at GameWorks? Yeah.

And we'd play like the most random spots, dude. Like, it didn't matter. We just wanted to play every weekend. So we just stayed busy. Is GameWorks still around? I don't know. But that. Where's their closest GameWorks at?

I think Ontario. That's where we played anyway. We drove all the way to Ontario to play at GameWorks for free. That was the one I was sticking in Mike. Is there still GameWorks there? I don't, it might be like a fucking Nike store an hour or something. Probably, yeah. game geeks no no we uh yeah we'd play there for like game tickets like they would just give us like

oh here's 20 dollars to play games for free and my band doesn't play games i do so i was like oh sick i'll take all the shit so i'll just play games but um yeah we didn't really we didn't really care we just played anywhere and everywhere there was one time though i will say that we went to we got a show at a restaurant in like huntington beach and we walked in and like there was just a older couple eating dinner. Yeah. And that was it. And I was like, dude, we cannot come in here and blast these people with our music right now.

So we just left. Oh, wow. No one was there to greet us either. Like, there was no promoter or anything. I was just like, this is stupid. Let's just go. Yeah. So we didn't even play.

But yeah, we just, we got used to that. So when it, when it came time to not have a singer, which was like a mutual situation, like with him, we were just like, it was normal to us. Like, we weren't like, oh, let's do what everybody's getting popular doing now and go instrumental. totally we just were like well this is what we always did anyway let's just keep doing it totally and it worked out i mean at this point we have i mean we have features like we got brandon on the song we got

anthony green on another song and uh you know we're open to that for sure like having people come in and like you know jump into our world for a second but i don't think we'll ever have like a full-time vocalist every again at least not in this project i mean at this point why you know you got you're the If you have a powerful trifecta, man, this is magic. Yeah. If you pull out, you could pull off the trifecta thing, dude. Why not? Do three pieces are just deadly.

It's fun. Deadly, man. And we can rely on each other. Like, we've been playing together for so long that there's no, like, drama. I mean, it's been 20 years, right? Yeah. Over 20 years. Yeah, pretty much.

16, 17, you're 37 now. Yeah. So it's been a long time. And two decades, man. And like, there's a level. of like confidence you get with your band members at that point where like I just wouldn't trade it for anything and like knowing that like I can always count on them to show up when needed and you know vice versa and like when it comes to writing like I know I don't have to worry about what they're going to do

like they're always going to do something cool and and I also trust them to tell me when I'm not doing something cool and so like to challenge me to be better and that's like one of my favorite things is like you know I feel like when you're able to play with other people and like get that feedback and like get the, you know, the situation where I want to get them stoked on something I'm doing. Like I want them to think like what I just did was sick. Yeah. Was something that they may not have thought of or whatever it is.

Or it's exactly what they were thinking of and I did it and now we're on the same exact page right away. Like that situation I feel like is very valuable and I feel like it's, I feel bad for people who don't get to experience that, whether it's just because of the location or like they just never met people like, like minded enough. but I think I'd be much different, a much different player if I was just by myself all the time from day one, not really getting a chance to play with other people. And I think right now it's so easy to just be a single musician and just have like, you know, all the plugins and drums and all that stuff are so available now and like recording is so easy and cheap. And like, you know, you can self-release everything.

You do it all yourself. And I do that myself as well. But like I have my band. So, like, having that situation is, like, it's so much better to me than just being alone. So, like, I feel like, I feel bad for some people who don't get to experience that. Because I think it definitely, even if you're really talented at playing, I think there's something that happens to your sound along the way that you develop through, like, sharing the writing experience. Totally. Yeah.

Yeah, deeper connection you have with someone else, deeper connection you'll have with yourself, you know, I think. Yeah. You know. Definitely. And, yeah, that's, it's cool. Yeah. I mean, my guys have taught me about me. Are you guys all, like, original besides the vocal?

Let's see. There's, obviously, it's me. Since 2002, I think Marcus is second. I think you joined in 2006. Oh, cool. Dan Kenny, 2000, base player, 2009. That's a long time for everybody. Yeah, yeah.

So over 15 years, well, over 15 years. That's sick. Eddie, 2014. So yeah, I think he's hitting the 10-year mark, too. Crazy. Yeah, he's been and been longer than Mitch. It's weird. Yeah, that's crazy.

I remember you guys coming up for sure. I mean, that was definitely, was your first record, the Cleansy? Yeah. Yeah. That was a record a lot of people in my high school were into. I remember a lot of friends jamming that for sure. Yeah, sick. Thank God.

Yeah. Still going, man. It's still going. Hey Nick, did we, did we miss anything? Is there anything about you, Head Cave, Night versus, anything that you want out there? I think just, you know, if you're in Europe, UK, check out the tour we got coming up in September. Dates are on our page, Night versus Instagram. That's probably the best place to always find any information on us.

That starts September 8th. It goes through the whole month. So catch us out there. I know we've been out there a couple of times, but this one will be a lot more special, I think, as far as it's our own tour. We'll play some songs we haven't played in a bit. And yeah, Head Cave, you know,

we'll have some new stuff out this year. Follow my personal Instagram, if you want to hear more of my stuff and what I have going on. I'll share that. I do have some music I am sitting on right now that I am taking my time to put out, but it's done.

I don't know why I haven't put it out yet. So I will have some new stuff coming soon. To be honest, it's because I'm spending way too much time freaking deciding what I want the album art to be, which is so dumb because I don't even care that much, but I apparently do. So I'll have some new stuff out pretty soon. But yeah, otherwise, I mean, just follow my stuff, you know, social media.

That's where I keep everything going. And I guess that's pretty much it. I mean... What do you want people to go? Just at Nick DePiro. Okay. Just my name. And then at night versus at head cave.

that's all on a if you go to my Instagram you'll see the links to the other stuff but yeah and I got like you know tabs and shit if you want to learn some night versus riffs

there's a tab book at sheet happens for our new record or our latest record and then I have my own tabs as well if you want to learn some of my riffs but yeah

it's pretty much it I guess tabbed up dude tabbed up Nick well thank you for for your time thank you for your riffs and thank you for bringing all your gear man

it's cool to hear I think you were the first player where I was truly it was truly at my wheelhouse. I couldn't, I didn't even know a war to start. I was like, I was like. Yeah, it was sick. I liked it. Thank you, Nick. All right, man, well, again, thank you, man.

It was sick, dude. That was awesome. I appreciate it. Thank you everyone for listening and stuff too. Hell yeah. And also I want to say, it's really sick that you are having people playing on a podcast. Like, that's a sick feature of a podcast. So that's sick.

Hell yeah, man. And we got more coming too. That's so sick. Yeah, I was stoked to see that with other people. I was like, oh, that's cool. That makes it more interesting, especially as a guitar player. Like, you want to see what people are doing. Totally.

That's a cool, cool asset to the podcast. Hell yeah, man. I think the only thing that we can't say now, we are evolving from the, from the, just guitar playing. Oh, shit. Yeah, so, but that's all I really say. It's awesome. I get the beat in someone's band. I was literally in, I'm probably the only other person that's in your band now.

Oh, shit. Because I can't explain it people, but. But in the headphones, it sounds fucking insane. It's the only, the best time to hear your music ever, for me. It's what the best time to hear your music is when you're in a studio and it's raw in headphones. Yeah. Either you're jamming it for a quick demo or you're trying to get a part down for some reason. There's the sound, the raw sound, the headphones.

Yeah. And the closest I get to that are these jams. For sure. So it's cool. So I get to kind of relive these raw moments again and again and again. So I'm kind of obsessed with it. That's nice. It's just, I was like I can explain it, but in the head.

headphones it sounds fucking crazy so i i get to hear you this rip my dude this is fucking crazy yeah headphones is the way for sure my life is awesome appreciate it man all right everyone that's it later