Garza Podcast - 22: Scott Ian Lewis | CARNIFEX

Episode Date: July 12, 2021

Scott Ian Lewis is the singer for Carnifex. We talk about getting the band off the ground, future of the Deathcore genre, and much more. SPONSORS: Click this link to purchase from Sweetwater & help support the podcast: imp.i114863.net/rnrmVB

Our following guest is the lead singer for the band Carnifax. By the time you're listening or watching this, it is July 12th, which means they're on tour right now. So go check them out, live and in person. Say what's up to them. They're all great, guys. Anyway, hope you enjoyed this conversation. Let's get into it. Please welcome Scottie and Lewis.

This is the first podcast without headphones. Thank you. We're doing it. I'm in. We're in. A new trend. Hey, you know what? I think we're probably guys that know a little something about new trends.

Yeah, it'll something, man. Dude, you guys are taking off next week. We are leaving in, yeah, in less than a week. I think we're like one of the first bands back out. Wow. How does that feel? You're going on tour. It feels amazing.

And then there's this part of you that maybe thinks, is this real? Is this just fantasy? You know? Yeah. I think it's one of those things where, you know, it was kind of mixed emotions through the whole thing. Like, you know, there's a part of it that is like,

we got some really good creative moments out of it, but also as a band and being a band member, it was like a scary time because you have no career. You have no income. And yeah, and it's, that's it. You know? And so I think it was, it's one of those things where it's like, it's about to happen, but it's not Christmas morning yet.

Yeah. We're waiting. You know, it's like, it's a couple days before Christmas. A lot of anticipation. Yeah. We're very excited, but we don't know if we're going to get the surprise bike from the closet just yet. Yeah. You know?

I mean, it looks good at me. I mean, I saw that Arbukurkey sold the fuck out. Yeah. Nashville sold out. Yeah. So it looks like a two-week run. It's a pretty brief rip. Yeah.

It's great. We had a bunch of, like, U.S. summer festivals in 20 that, of course, got canceled. Of course. And then they kicked them over to 21. But then they ended up pushing two of them into September. And since we're doing Dahlia in September, the only one that remained was that Rockfest in Wisconsin. Nice. That's a good one.

Yeah. And we really wanted to play is a good offer and all that. So we figure, hey, let's do a week there. Let's do a week back. Great. Make something out of this. Wow. Bring the show back.

Dude, it's back. Trying, man. It's next week for you guys. Yeah, July 8th is the first day. So I guess we're just, yeah, maybe nine days away. Wow, that's crazy, huh? Yeah. It was this morning I saw a picture of I follow all the guys from

Seven Dust on IG and like they were posting pictures of their first show back like last night I assume it was and seeing them like seeing like the crowd the moat and the crowd I was like whoa dude they're they're on tour that's crazy and I was like I was going into stories they're like posting pictures of like the bus driving I'm like oh it's so cool it's almost like that's awesome that's what my life used to be yeah right yeah it's like it's like you Is it happening again? I think it might. I mean, no bus.

Like, we're back in the van, 100%. But, you know, it's like, you know, and we're kind of talking about on the way up. It was just like, man, it's like, it's almost there, but not yet. And it's like, you want to believe it. But, you know, it's been a tough year. It's been a tough year, huh? Yeah. Well, a year and a half.

Yeah. For you guys, did that year and a half fly by? Because to me, it kind of did. It kind of did. It's weird, huh? Yeah. It kind of did, but it was, it's like, I don't know, it was almost like it was like tour in a weird way where like each day is long. But before you know it, it's over.

It was a mind fuck. No, you're right. No, you're right. It's like, it's long tour, but then wait, then you're like, oh, we're on the last day. Last day, okay, I guess. See you around. I guess we're home. Yeah, and I guess that's kind of like, you know, you're saying, oh, yeah, tour at a week.

And it's like, yeah, tour at a week. Wow. Huh. A year and a half. So, yeah, I felt like a loan in it. I might, wait, is it just me or just you really felt like? Maybe it's a musician thing. It could be too. You know, because that's another weird thing is like, you realize as a musician,

you don't really know that many people where you live, or at least I didn't. And so it was like everybody I know and all the people, you know, I've been turned since 2006 full time. So everybody I know everyone I'm friends with are other touring musicians from, wherever they may be from in the world And where you see your friends is when you're on the road

And you know You get a different card from the deck each time you go out Yeah And then being at home for a year and a half It's like I don't know anybody here You know what I mean? It was like kind of a trip I mean thankfully you know I had Sean a mic So it's like yeah two people

You know what I mean but then we were like really went deep on the record Which was a great thing It was like therapy for all of us Great But like that was it That was like my only lifeline to real life. Wow.

Well, at least you had, you know, Mike and, and your bandmates. Yeah. Yeah. Lifesavers. You know, I will say that while you bring up bandmates. I'll say, I don't think I ever appreciated them more. I know it's kind of counter because, like, we really didn't do that much band stuff. For the most part, we were, like, you know, pretty kind of separated and away from each other.

Yeah. But I appreciated them. more than ever. It was kind of a weird feeling where you're like, man, we've been through all this stuff and even now all four of us, we're all out of the job, we're all eating it, but we're still all here working on this thing. And like it had, it kind of had some meaning in that moment. Yeah. Yeah, it makes you like really appreciate your, like your band members and what, and what you guys have. And then like maybe during the past year and a half, you really look back and like, man, we did all that stuff. You're talking about like, for you guys 15 plus years, man.

And it's only, it was, it's only one Corey, only one shot, only one Fred. Like, you guys, it was you guys doing it, man. Yeah. Like, you can really look back from, man, those are my, those, those are my writer dies. Yeah, dude. And that's the thing, I think when you're kind of in the grind, because like, it's, like, you guys is, like, we never really took our foot off the gas. Like, once we got the opportunity to get on the road, the goal is always get a bigger tour, get a bigger tour, get a bigger tour. And I mean, we never stop that.

I don't, I think pretty much all of our bands and our scenes are like that. You know, we're all pushing. And so then to have it all go away is just like, you know, really puts you in a space where you have to kind of reevaluate. Yeah. And like, man, is this, am I really? Is this who I am? I really a musician?

Am I going to bail now and try to figure something else out? But then may you realize, like, I guess I'm a lifer. And damn, good thing I'm in a band with lifers too. Otherwise, I wouldn't have a band right now. I'd be really screwed. Totally. So we got lucky. And, of course, we got the label, you know, that we told them like, hey, we're doing this record.

They're really cool about, you know, helping us out, you know, get us a few bucks here and there while we're getting the record to them. And then, yeah, I mean, we try to be active online. We did the Patreon, which was weird because it's like we don't really broadcast that part of ourselves. Like, we're all about the show, you know, give them some entertainment, give them some theater. Yeah. So it was kind of a it was out of our comfort zone, but probably a good thing to connect like on a kind of a You know very human level with everybody that was you know also kind of away from live music Way from the bands they loved yeah. Yeah, it's like you're both kind of going through something similar It's like you're not going on tour they're not seeing bands right we ain't playing

Yeah, so like you're both are kind of having this like experience together yeah yeah to different positions but like like dealing with the same problem of like wow i'm feeling a huge disconnect from my identity yeah you know and then as soon as you feel that disconnect from your identity it's like the scene in zielander where you're looking in the reflection in the street going who am i you know it's like that was that was like me half the year you know who am i who am i the fuck do i got am i am i in a man fuck i don't even know you're in it dude apparently i am yeah i didn't know if i was for a while but it's good no it's not it's not it's not it's not it's not it's not one to have that kind of like

like oh you know don't want to do this anymore it's it's normal thoughts and feeling it's all good you know it's probably really reassuring for you to have like being a band with guy like cori and sean and fred are still doing it so like yeah you've been a lifer for so long you see them be lifers it really gives you that oh shit like right well i mean like in the other band like you guys whitechapel like seeing other bands go the distance and not tap it's It's like, okay, like if they can do it, we can do it. You know what I mean? Like, it's kind of like a strength in numbers type thing.

Totally. I was lucky enough to talk to you with Derek from a Silvatora. And they've been, like, what are they? Like, 30 years? Grinding. Like, it's very similar. They haven't put their foot off the gas. And they're, I mean, some of the guys are hitting 50.

Andreas is like a guitar player at 52 and he's rocking out harder than me. He's going for it. He's like, my dude, that's so, and it's putting out aggressive music, still doing it. a high level and that's what you just said it's like if they if they do it and you see them do it it's very inspiring it is you know they're like they're not you know taking their foot off the gas and see them still do it at a high level and still get bigger and uh successful get uh get over certain situations it's it's really inspiring to see that yeah it's very awesome i mean we were kind of talking about cannibal a little bit before we went live but like seeing those guys get as

far as they've gotten, it's kind of like, it's almost like the best slash worst example because it's like, we're never going to give up because, dude, cannibal's still doing it. And it's like, we're going to just go down with the ship, which you know, so be it.

But it's like, it's good to see that like, you know, bands can still survive. And we're kind of talking about that band Gujarra too. It's like those guys are all in their early 50s. And now they're just sort of breaking in the last couple years. But, yeah. They've been a man forever, right?

And so, yeah, we always make the joke, like, you know, album 12, bro. That's when we'll blow up. Yeah, there we go. It's coming, dude. It's cute. It's coming, dude. Go Jira, bro. Yeah.

You know, behemoth, they didn't get big till album 11. Come on, you know. It's like, but it's, oh, everybody's trying to get there. Yeah, we're all, it's crazy how we're all in like the same scene, you know. Yeah. It's weird. Like, I think because we were like, you know, coming kind of. It's weird.

I know it's good that I'm talking to you about this because you were there. And it's like the whole Death Corps and all that, it's like, yeah, but all that came along, like, all that came along and got labeled and got categorized after the fact. It's like we were just bands doing

it. Like we were just trying to be death metal bands, but hey, we got a guy that likes hardcore on guitar and our drummer's into metalcore. You know, it just happened. You know what I mean? It sounds right. I was like, It kind of sucks, but it's cool at the same time.

Right, you know. You know, death my head's fucking hate it, but we like it, so whatever, you know? Yeah. And, like, it just, that's where we came from. So to see it kind of build up, like, around, you know, like, we were, like, the center of the old town. And everything got built out around, like, our old bands. It's like, it's kind of a trip to, like, take your head up and look around and be like, oh, wow, we're, like, part of something. It's crazy.

Oh, I didn't know there's all this other shit here, you know? It's crazy, man. Yeah, it's kind of a trip. trip, but I guess it's a good thing. It's a good thing. I think you guys should still be very proud that you're still here and doing it. Yeah. People are just now finding out about your band still.

They are. And bands are still being inspired by it. Yeah, it's a hard thing to sort of admit to yourself. I'm not sure why. Maybe because it's like, you know, I was talking to another person about this. And it's kind of like, it's hard to take good compliments because then you would have to take the hate too, right? Yeah.

Because, or then you're just cherry picking, you know, all, it's just what I want to hear. Totally. Right, it's just the criticism I want to hear or the critique I want to hear. Yeah. And so there's somewhere along the way, especially coming from where both we came from,

where it was like, you know, Death Corps was very hated on. Like, people had a lot of things to say about it, and it wasn't positive. So, like, getting all that shit early on, I think made us sort of just be like, look, we can't, whether it's a nice sentiment or a horrible,

sentiment like we can't really worry about it we just have to look to each other for what we want to write and i think we had that mentality for so long that it kind of closed us off from compliments too yeah maybe that was a good thing no i know you guys have the uh the right headspace because bad compliments are good i mean uh or bad comments or good comments they're both the same they're both equally yeah distracting just someone's opinion is someone's opinion is someone's opinion it's distracting and actually the good comments are actually worse because if you start to believe it as you're just saying it's a very bad thing you're going down a road it's like it's very hard to get out of so you know saying very similar you know i don't listen to good i don't

listen to good comments but i understand what you're saying as well as like this is why i did it to you like when someone gives you a compliment you're like you're like you're like to take it yeah you know so so when someone says dude like you're like you're bad sick i'm like i don't want to take it so i'm telling you i got up yeah i'm telling you like you know as like uh my my perspective on on on what you've been to for so long and your band and seeing it like you guys should be proud man you guys are still here and still doing it we're finally getting to that stage i think you know finally getting to that state i appreciate you saying that too like it's i think it's one of those things where you can kind of only accept compliments from someone who knows where you're coming from you know what i mean

it's kind of a fucked up thing to not be able to accept a compliment from someone else's perspective but in your head you're like you don't know where i'm at but it's all good thank you Yeah. But like I know you do know where I'm at. You know, and it's like, it is nice to hear that. And it's almost like permission to be like, oh, we did, we did do a good job in a weird way. Because it's like getting permission from like a colleague or like a kudos from a colleague. And then you can like, so it doesn't feel like you're pat yourself on the back, you know. Exactly. Totally. You want it like, it's good to hear it, but you don't want to pat yourself in the back. You're right. It's that weird like line, you know. Yeah. It's like definitely some motivation goes a long way. for musicians, like for sure. Like, one good thing from the right person will get you like five years.

You are fucking right, man. Holy shit. If you get a little encouragement for the right person, that will stay with you for a long time, and that really taught me like, if someone said something to me, I was like, whoa. And it stays with me.

So I have any opportunity that I can get to say something that's truthful. Yeah. It goes a long way, man. It must come from mutual respect. Totally. It must be it. Because I know you've done it.

So I know you can give the compliment. Yeah. You know, so I'm like, oh, thank you. Yeah. You know, we've all fucking been laying down at 4 a.m. And you wake up to, like, hitting that, like, rumble strip. Are we going off the fucking hill right now? We all have that feeling.

Oh, man. Sucks. Hey, and in eight short days, we'll have that feeling again. I can't wait. Here we go. Something to look forward to you. Yeah, but you know what? We need the adventure, man.

Like, I can't. I guess I kind of realized being, locked up at home, it's like, dude, like, I'm, the reason I kind of went out on tour and the reason we did these, like, MySpace tours with, you know, we didn't have TMs. We, like, we didn't even have an agent on these first tours. We would just go and play, they're just MySpace shows. You just, you know, it's a garage. It's a barn. It's a, it's a pallets in a horse paddock. Like, whatever it was, that we would go do that for a month. And that was like, that was the adventure. And I kind of realized, like, damn, like, yeah, I love being in, you.

Musician and a frontman. I love writing all that shit But it's this really interesting combination of artistry and adventure because it's like you got to do all your art But you got to do it in a different place every single day and you got to get there and it's all on you have fun And it's like that's an adventure like we got a challenge and I think that's like I really realize like man It's not just being a musician. It's being a touring musician that I really is that's really where I thrive is you know Yeah and performing you know it's kind of crazy I really like if I I was just a studio musician, it probably wouldn't be that satisfying.

Yeah. To be honest. Yeah, yeah, you found what you love. Yeah. You like going out for at least two weeks. Oh, at least. At least. Dude, I'm looking at this Dalia tour is like a six-week run.

Yeah. I'm like, hell yeah. That's what you get like week six, like week three, week four, you don't even know what day it is. You're just like, where's the bathroom? Where's catering? What time do we play? Great.

Oh, man. That's the best feeling for me when you're just in the machine. And when you go on stage and you're not even thinking about the set, but you're playing it perfectly. Yeah. That's the best. You're like, oh, yeah, we're going to watch Tall Dagan nights when we get back on the bus. Oh, yeah, we got that barbecue place. Great.

Hell yeah. Oh, the set's done. Great. I'm out of here. And everyone comes up and they're like, that was the best show I've ever seen. You're like, great. Yeah. I was somewhere else, but I'm glad you loved it.

Dude, totally. You guys accomplish what I think a lot of bands struggle. You get the question, you know, how do you be in a band? How do you get like the first step? So how, what was your process like getting those first shows? Even without like a booking agent, how did you get the first shows, like the first little tour? How did you get to that, to that stage?

Yeah. It was friends and we were actually a part of the music scene. Like, you know, like, we would go to shows that we weren't playing. Like, we would be at a show every, this is like me and Sean, you know, and Corey later on. Like, we would be at a show every night of the week, fliring, handing out demos, meeting other people in bands and saying, oh, let's hook up, let's throw a show. You know, like, we would go to shows, you know, see a band, kill it and be like, oh, where are you from? Oh, you're from Wildemar. Oh, you know, we're from Fallbrook.

Oh, dude, we'll throw a Fallbrook show. You throw a Wildemar show. Wow. Like, we were, it was just, it wasn't, we didn't get hype first. We didn't, like, reverse engineer interest. It was like, we went out and made friends in the scene, and that's where the opportunity came from. Yeah. And also, that's how we had to do it.

Like, you know, all the gatekeepers were, they hard know on death core, you know. Yeah. So the only opportunity you had was to go out with. with your friends. So those early tours, I remember one of the first tours we did was us in Burning the Masses. You remember Burning the Masses?

Chris and all those kids? Yeah. Yeah. And dude, we did two bands in one van. You actually did that. Actually did it. We actually did that on two different tours.

We did that with Suffocate as well. Wow. Yeah, you remember suffocate? Oh, of course. Right, Oakland, the whole thing. Heavy as fuck. Shout out to Jared. Jared, yeah.

OG, yeah. Like, we did two bands in one van with Suffocate. And we went out, dude. It was a grind, but we're there for the adventure. And we didn't have an expectation. Like, we weren't sitting there, like, going, well, where's the bus? Where's the chips and salsa? We were like, we're the fucking kids.

Let's rip a show. That's all we cared about. Yeah. And that, I think that was what, like, we kind of scrapped through that first heap of, like, you know, is your band willing to work for it? Or do you want to just, like, be the dude on stage rocking it? You know what I mean? Like, do you want it or do you want what you get from it?

You know what I mean? Like, you know, do you want the girlfriend and like, oh, he's in a band? Is that what you're after? Or like, you're like, no, I'm a musician. I'm trying to, like, write music. I care about that means something to me. Yeah. Those two guys definitely exist in the music world.

You know, a lot of those guys get on tour. Yeah. A lot of those guys get on tour and they'll tour for a long time. You know, how they get there, who knows. but there are other group of people they're like, they're more interested in what they're actually doing on that stage. The words they're saying, the music they're creating,

you know, how they're pulling other people into it and finding a connection with people that speak different languages from other countries with different religions and different governments and like, that's what music is to all of us. Totally. You know, and so that tenacity just drove us to say, well, anywhere there's an opportunity,

we'll take it. Because what we care about is performing and getting out there, not what we're getting from it, like, you know, monetarily or, you know, like in treatment or whatever. Yeah. And then the first, like, real good tour we did was Karnaf-Was Amir, Carnifex,

United Conquer. That's a good one. It's a great one. And that was me and Jesse. Remember Jesse Ketiv? Of course. Yeah, it's me and Jesse on MySpace. He booked East Coast. I booked West Coast. Dude. We just did it, bro. We fucking did it. It was awesome. And that tour kicked so much ass. It was like, three, 400 kids a night every night

and it was a straight up MySpace tour. There wasn't one legit like promoter thing like no live nation nothing. Wow. And I don't, we didn't really realize how good we had it at the time. Like we didn't know we were in that special moment, you know? Yeah, yeah, you don't know when you're back then. You know it's good.

You're having fun. But you're like, you don't know it's like oh dude like this is a moment right here. And that I think we just that sort of energy from like seeing like dude, we just straight scrapped our way to this position. Like, that's one thing I will say about Carnifex. We never got a handout.

In fact, we had a boot on our neck half the fucking time. Like, we never got a handout. So the fact that we could scrap to get to where we were, we had fans and, like, you know, victory wanted to sign us and all that stuff. It was like, that was just gas on the fire for us.

And we just, you know, from there, it was just never give up. And, I mean, we haven't changed that tune. You know, I mean, things got weird with the hiatus. because we were, you know, legal stuff with victory. But once we got past that, you know, it was like, cool, we can just get back to it. And our mindset, it, like, never changed.

You know, we did die without hope through that whole time, you know. Yeah. So I guess it was kind of like the pandemic in a weird way where we just said, all right, if something's messed up, let's just go back to our basics, which is the four of us in a bedroom writing music that makes the other guy laugh and go as heavy. Yep. That's how Carnifex started and that's how we did our last record and like that's just what I mean that's just where it's at for us It's just like let's just look internally and just stay focused on the fun and And originality you know try to just be us, you know

Yeah, you try to be you guys and had that had that foundation. How do we start? You know going going back there, you know You got you got to have that foundation. You're right. Yeah, you know what do what a cool time for you guys you guys. I mean that's goes to show you guys, we're out networking, even like when we're like, especially when we look back, now we're like, okay, I'm like, I'm like a shy guy, but you look back at what you did when you were a kid, you're like, oh, wow, I was out talking to people at shows

and flying like a man. Firing out, like, it's like, how do we do that? I mean, we were driven, you know? Yeah, it's cool. I mean, you know, for me, it was like music was such an escape and just going to shows. I was like all I cared about. That was it.

So to be able to have a chance to go from, you know, being on the floor to being on the stage, I was like, my, you know, I was like, I have to do that, right? Like, these are the people I'm idolizing are the performers I'm watching, you know? And so I think that was, it was like that for a lot of us, you know, like music was our escape and kind of our religion. And so then when it became more than just a passion, it was like, you know, well, of course we're just going to go hard, you know, like this is what we've been dreaming about. Yeah. You guys did it. did it try and trying yeah i feel like it's you know it's still in process but it is yeah no it's cool that people need need need to hear that people struggle like try to get to that first step is it the second step how do i get on a stage how do i book you know how do it on a tour and like you guys it shows you guys put in the work and like this how you do it we did it ourselves yeah we we did you know and i would say that's kind of the way you have to do because you know in the music biz if someone does it for you you all yeah and you know that'd come back on you, big time.

And then suddenly that thing that you created isn't yours anymore. Totally. You know? And suddenly it's like, yeah, change your name. Well, you'll kick this guy out. This is the kind of record you need to write. And it's like, whoa, wait a minute. I thought this was, you know, our band.

You know, oh, no, because we hooked you up. It's our band. And like, that's kind of how the music biz can get. And so at least we're in that position where, like, at least if the biz just says, you know, forget Carnifix. It's like, all right, we'll just go play VFWs and bars. Like, we still have a fan base. Like, we don't need a yes.

We don't need a green light from anybody at this point where I could call out a bunch of bands that if the biz decided they were done, they'd be done. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. And it's like, I'm glad we're not that band, you know? Yeah. But I don't know. It's just like for us, I feel like it's just that thing where if we stop, we die, you know?

You got to keep going. Yeah. Keep going. And even after, you know, 15 plus years, do you feel like you're just starting a dude? All this just to get to the... I feel like we still don't know shit. Same.

Yeah, I feel like every time it's like, you go, fuck, I hope we can write a good record. You know what I think? Oh, God, like, who... You wrote that? Oh, fuck. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, look back in your old records.

You're like, how have we come up with that? How do we? Who are those people? You're like, damn, that's good ideas. I know. You know, maybe that's a good thing. I don't know what that means, but maybe that fear is like what drives you to like, I better work hard, you know? I don't know what it is, but.

Totally. I don't know. Maybe it's something we put on ourselves, you know? I think it's healthy. Yeah. You know? It keeps you going. And it's so special for you guys after so long and the ups and downs you still have the drive and want to do it and you still have fun.

Yeah, you know, and that's something we've been like reminding ourselves of and like even. You know, we've been meeting up a lot lately, getting ready for this tour and some other stuff. And we've been telling ourselves that let's have fun. Let's have fun. Because, you know, I can think of tours we went on where, like, they were badass tours. But for some reason, like, we were just all griping. You know, and you're just like, that's kind of silly. You know what I mean?

You look back and you're like, I could have gotten over that in a day. You know, why did I give a shit about that? Totally. So it's a good thing to, like, have everybody in this, like, you know kind of a like positive headspace you know fresh start right yeah everybody wants to go out with their best foot forward and just be like make the you know good new memories yeah yeah we all unfortunately as humans we need that shake up to be like to get right reminded i think it could get taken away to any moment you know you know and in a weird way and maybe you can relate to this

it's i felt like there was this we were kind of entering this period like 2018 2019 where like like the shows just weren't selling the way they used to. And maybe people were kind of losing a little interest in like, you know, five guys on stage with guitars and drum. You know what I mean? It kind of seemed like, wow,

maybe, you know, a rock band is kind of becoming old news. Like, maybe a metal show is just old news now. But in a weird way, I think, like,

it kind of going away and everybody sort of seeing, like, how important, you know, all of us bands are. and how important, like, it's not just live entertainment. It's like, it's live therapy. Yeah.

For both of us here and both sides of the moat, you know. And I think it's, yeah, I think that's why we've seen some shows sell out in advance. Like, we're not a sellout in advance band. So it's cool. It's cool. Yeah, like, okay, do guys, this is a good thing. Let's ride this wave. Let's embrace these good vibes, you know.

Yeah. And we're happy with the record. So I think we're just going to hit the ground running and just like, do what we always do, say, dude, it's pedal down. Let's make it happen. It's time, dude. We're still trying, you know. Yeah.

You know, get that tour with Slipknot, like, get on those shed tours, they call them, right? The amphitheater tours. Oh, yeah. You know, it's like we still haven't, we never got to that level yet. We're still trying to break that ceiling. Keyword yet. Yeah, yeah. We'll see what happens.

You know, the book has not been finished yet. It's not, man. It's not, you're not even halfway through. Chapter 16. Yeah. What, uh, what record are, are, are you one? I think it's eight. Eight.

Yeah. Chapter eight. Yeah. Well, it's like when I count the, uh, the, uh, the piece and demo, it's probably chapter 10. Oh, it was, yeah, 10 or 11 somewhere in there. Yeah. Yeah, it's a few.

It adds up for sure. But I guess it's, it's a good thing. It's just, it, in a weird way, like, for us, we, we, we need to, like, look back at that catalog and be like, like, Like we've been able to write a badass record like yeah use that motivation to go forward Maybe we're just like hella insecure I don't know Yeah, I feel like we're always having to like find ways to like re-inspire ourselves to succeed you know Totally I think it's normal especially as artists like you're kind of

Inherently insecure. I know I am I definitely you know it's like I'll be like one day I'm just super confident then I'll smoke weed I'm like you're a piece of shit you suck the worst dude I'll be sitting in my room all high and alone I'm like you suck you can't smoke sad man

I learned that this year I learned that this year can't do it yeah I just fucking let it take me where it needs to go then but what was what's great about being vulnerable I don't know what it is

but you wake up and like you just in like a blissful state and then then you learn oh shit I need I need to work on that I need to prove on that okay cool I'm not as cool as I think I am And then, especially as artists, we're just inherently insecure people.

We are. Yeah. Well, you know, it's a, it's a, what have you done lately for me business? You know, it's like we're all only as good as our last record or our last tour or is our last, you know, release. So I think when you get, when you spend a decade and a half in that environment of people telling you, oh, your next thing better be your biggest thing. Your next thing better be your biggest thing. Yeah.

No matter what, how big your last thing was, you kind of. like you find yourself in this mentality of like I can never be enough you know because it's like every effort you make it's like oh cool but the next one will be bigger right well yeah we'll try but the next one will be bigger and like you hear that long enough and you're just like i guess it's never enough i guess yeah the next one will be bigger forever because i can never hit the mark and that that mentality kind of just you end up just going to bed with that you know you do i do anyway no i'm saying i'm saying like the royal you but it's me i'm saying i'm saying like the royal you but it's me.

I should be saying me. You know. Yeah. It's fucked up because that's, that same thing makes you feel like shit a lot, but it's also the same thing that gives you that firing and makes it keep going to to improve. So it's like this weird thing where you need that. It is. Yeah.

I mean, maybe it's not healthy, but it keeps the fires lit, though. Yeah. I think you understand it and what it is. I think it is healthy. I got to master it still then. Sure. Yeah. I'm not there yet, but I've definitely understood.

There's, I mean, I don't know what I'm a idiot, but what I do understand is self-doubt is very, it's very real. Yeah. And so real, I think it's why it's so confusing for artists and people where self-doubt is like a part of you. It's like, it's in your bones. It's like a part of your heart. It's why I feel so real. But I learned that just when you get that self-doubt, just do the opposite. I got to remember that.

When you get that self-doubt, do the opposite. opposite, it's not real. It's not fucking real. Yeah. Yeah, I got to remember that. Yeah, I think, you know, I'm still calling out of the chasm of 2020. I'm not there yet, bro. I'm still working on it. I got you. I'm Lizzie. I'm like, point there, right, right,

right, right, right down. Yoga. Okay, right. Yoga down. Yeah, we were talking about yoga earlier. A bunch of mid-30 guys. Yeah, try to figure out how to survive in this machine. Yeah. But it's cool when you get older and age, you get that, like, experience, you know?

Yeah, it's true. Like my head, like, as far as, like, knowing what to expect or what the tour is going to be like or, like, how to get through situations. Like, I got that in my sleep. Right now, my biggest enemy is just me. Like, the road, I got that on lock. We've dealt with pretty much everything at this point. Yeah. But now getting this under control, that's not so easy, you know?

So that's kind of where I'm at right now. It's like when you're young and you're just grinding, like, you know, you kind of like the bigger context or bigger picture stuff. Maybe you're like, whatever, get to it when I get to it. Or like, you just have tunnel vision. Yeah. And then you get a little bit older a year and a half off, start thinking too much, you know. Totally. All of a sudden, you're like, yeah, I have the skill to go on tour in my sleep.

But what about this mind, you know? Yeah. But, yeah, I'll see what happens. Yeah, and especially when you're right, when you get older, it's like, the more, the more simple where you get, so the more aware of your mind. So it's like this weird fuck-up thing that older you get, the more where you are a bit, and the more those feelings come up. Yeah, it's true. Do you find that's like the way it is? Yeah, I've felt that in my own life, like, you know, I kind of think back on certain situations.

I'm like, wow, like, I really made that decision, like, pretty easily. And then I think about it now. I'm like, I probably would have grappled with it a little bit now as an adult. But back then I was just like, mm, that one. You know, and like, no problem. Didn't think about it a second time. I'm like no anxiety, just moved on with my life. And it's like, man, I've got to get back into that habit, you know.

So weird. It's like calling and be like, oh, I'm doing that now. And it's just, you know, that's a worry about. But I think another thing, it's kind of interesting is like being older and still being a musician is you realize the people around you like are becoming more your life and their life as you become more and more different. You know, because it's like when you're 20 and like, you know, your friends are 20, but maybe, you know, they're doing whatever. but you're on tour like okay it's not that different like we're both just kind of you know fucking off doing our thing yeah and it's like 25 and 25 you know okay maybe they you know got like the living girlfriend now or or whatever and it's like 30 and 30 it's like oh they finally like they got the good job finally like oh hey oh you're

working where now damn 60 grand a year good for you bro like yeah he's doing it all right got the nice truck making the truck payments then 35 it's like oh like they got a house they got a kid like oh yeah I got to get the kids. You know, second grade starts. And then you're just like, I'm in the same band. Like, remember your band? Like, I'm in the same band.

I was in back when you were in bands. And it's just like, you realize like your life and the people that are your age. It's just, you're just getting further and further apart. You realize, man, I'm just like a stranger on this planet. I'm just living out on the fringe, you know. Yeah. I kind of felt that a lot, you know, through the pandemic. But I guess that's what you do when you're not actually out on the road.

Does that make you feel alone? Yeah, it does. But, you know, I've always struggled with, like, that isolation feeling like, you know, this goes all the way back to, like, I can remember being in, like, second grade and just being around kids at school, waiting in line for the water fountain, like, whatever it was, and just being like, I just feel alone here. Yeah. And it's kind of weird. I'm not sure where that comes from baked in, I guess. but yeah and man growing up like you know it's real isolated you know i only made it to ninth

grade in high school you know and and it was like yeah the reason i left high school was because that like i was like wow like i don't know any of these people like i'm out like i don't what am i doing here it's just a thing that people do i'm out you know and so i bounced out and uh yeah i don't know. I kind of had that feeling my whole life. And so it was probably compounded by where my career ended up taking me on the road and, you know, just away from everybody's, you know, your own family and everybody's family. You know, you just live in a different life. It's like a different timeline. You know what I mean? It's like they're like living here. You're like in dog years. Like up here, you're like, house and kids, huh? No, it's just in a band still. I don't know, you know.

It's boring dog years. Wow. It kind of is like that. It feels like it. It's like a different plain than everyday life for the folks that are doing the 9 to 5. And like, it's like a badge of honor in a weird way. But at the same time, it's like, you're also very different. You know, you have very different experiences, very different outlook. You're in a very different situation, et cetera, et cetera. So you kind of get, you know, like, damn, like, am I doing a right thing? Like, am I going to be able to turn this, like, turn this band into something?

Because if you stop now, well, then all you did was just waste 15. Now you're just a 35-year-old dude with nothing. Right? So you kind of get to that. It's like, man, we're in sink or swim. Like, if we stop swimming now, we're in the middle of the river. We're just get... We're out to sea.

Yeah. Never see us again. It's like, we have to get to the other side now. Too far to swim back, and the current's too strong to stop. Yeah. You know? You guys can't stop now. No.

And that's like where we're at. And then, you know, you're going through sitting at home for a year and a half. Yeah. And it's just like, this is a tough street. Yeah If I just stop and float out into the ocean Yeah And those thoughts creep up on you

Like maybe I should just stop I should stop Right and then you like You're like like damn like Like this is as stupid as band on earth Like I'm just an idiot Yeah Like I'm doing embarrassing myself

Like I should just disappear somewhere Yeah Like erase this person You know so I don't know I guess that's maybe that's why we get Get some good records out of us I don't know. You know, I'm not sure, but yeah, it's definitely riding the emotional waves, that's for sure.

Yeah, and do you find, it's all that ties into like you're just beginning, even though you spent so many years swimming and you're like, okay, now, now we're mid-30s and we see some of our friends. They have like the house and kids and they pay off the truck already. Right. Oh, dang, you own it now. Yeah. Yeah, and we're like, mid-30s and like, it's kind of, it's kind of. depends how your mindset is, but this is a very healthy way to view it.

No one gives a fuck about us. No one gets a fuck about you. Yeah. You got to... Now, all this to get to at the middle of the river or ocean, as you were saying, but you gotta start swimming harder. Yeah.

And that's a crazy mind thing. You got... We've got here to swim harder. It's true, yeah. And that's just the way it is. No one's going to feel sorry for me. No one... Especially if we're talking, like, music industry.

Oh, they can't wait to get rid of you. Oh, yeah. Oh, can't wait. Next. Thank you. Like this is your time It's going to more harder Oh yeah

And you know And we You know what I think like As weird as we are And as many problems Is that That we all have

Like you know Internally As I feel like All four of us Are like these fucked up kids That's probably why We're all Doing so well

In a band together And it's just a four of us All these people Everyone else is like I can't deal with these weirdos You know We're like the mutants at table nine You know

They'll never find love That's us That's car effects dude We're the meeting some table nine. And, but that's all good. And I think we kind of bottled that up in a weird way. And we kind of like put some of that spite and some of that like, you know, kind of like the middle.

Like we kind of wrote the record as a fuck you kind of. Yeah. I don't know. It was like, it kept us going. So. Good. Yeah. I mean,

I guess it's good to keep some fighting you still, you know. Keep going. And again, we need outside perspectives to tell us this. But I think you guys didn't have it. You guys haven't put out your. stuff yet. I don't I hope not.

I hope not. Otherwise we've peaked. You know, yeah. If you look at like the career span of like, you know, like Cannibal's or behemist or like that, that realm, like if you look at their like eighth record, they put out some fucking like, holy shit.

Yeah. I mean, yeah, we were just talking about before we live is Cannibal's new record. Like, yeah, they're album 16. Yeah. Yeah. And we're not even halfway there, dude. In a weird way, You're like, oh, God.

You know, you're like, eight more record? I can't write eight more records. You're killing me right now. But, yeah, I guess in the other side of it, you're like, well, at least I got some work left. You know, at least I got a little bit of work. Yeah, it's like cannibal's 16 records deep. Dudes are in their 50s and they're just crushing, you know? So it's like, oh, right, right, right, right.

It's still pissed off. We're not old yet, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, you guys got the experience now. Yeah, I hope so. I mean, we're all self-toped musicians. So, like, that's kind of like, you know, sometimes it's like, we're just running on raw motion. And, you know, sometimes it could be daunting when you, like, see, like, the other band's just, like, so slick.

And, like, they just, yeah, we just ride a record in a month, you know, and you're just like, what the fuck? It's like, it's a year to write this. You know? Yeah, I'm like, God, we suck. You know? But, and we had to work real hard on it, you know? Like, we actually fucking labored over this bitch, you know? But I guess it's one of those things where it's like, we just kind of have that idea, like, we'll just outwork people.

We'll just keep showing up. It's a war of attrition. We just won't stop. Dude, what you just said is that's it. Just outwork, you can have the perfect playing musician, perfect way better than you. Actually, they are. Yeah. Oh, we're not that good musicians.

They're way better. I always tell the story how, like, you know, I knew, like, since day one, like, especially being from Corona, I showcased theater, like, the bands that would play there, it's like, the local scene was like, fuck. It was amazing. I knew, like, I said myself being like, you know, a 14-old kid, all these guitar players are better than me. I know it.

Yeah. But just, but they were not outworked me. There you go. It's not going to happen. I would just be, and you guys lived it. You guys put in the work and you were persistent and you're still going. That's evidence that you can not be that skilled and still make it, like, straight up. Yeah, totally.

We're just self-taught dudes just literally just, we write what we love, but we just, Yeah. We just show up every day. Even, dude, we had down years, man. We put out until I feel nothing. Yeah. That was a big down year for us from Hell Chos Me. You know, it was like, did my arms disease?

Hell chose me until I feel nothing. We had to ride that wave out. It sucked. You know what I mean? It's okay. Even this last one, World War X, like, you know, Die Without Hope, slow death. Well, War X. Granted, the cycle got blown up.

But, you know, it's like, you can't, it's not always, you know, Because sometimes you're going to do that two steps forward, one steps back deal. Yeah. Right. Progress isn't a straight line, I think is the phrase. No, you're going to go ups and extreme downs. And I think if you're doing it right, you're going to have low lows. Because if you want that high high, well, you're going to have to go through this low low. Right.

Yeah. And one record you'll put out, you're making money and great tours. And the next one you put out fucking flops and all the money's gone. Oh, wow. Where the money go? But then you have that, like, that steady climb up. you know what dude it's a cycle done it me personally and done it three times

like that rise up dude there's something about it it's so much fucking fun yeah I think it's because like you like have that like kind of it's that attitude of like I'll show you we're back you know we're fucking back and it's like there's something in there we're like there's something about that the musician

that's just like man we're just going to get up on stage or just flattened people with this record you know what I mean like if you always have that drive in you you always got one more record in you Yeah, you know, and sometimes Being inspired in the drive You know, I've still experienced with it

But sometimes I'll just go away And I'll be like, oh shit, like that can happen So when the drive comes back, you're like, oh, I'm just fucking grateful It's true It came back and we can still go on Yeah Because now having that experience Oh shit like being motivated and inspired and driven

That actually goes away The fact that we still feel that is huge You're right. Yeah Yeah, I'm glad that like through this being stuck at home and everything it was nice that everybody in the band immediately was just like

dude we just gotta work let's just write music go let's go and I mean that's why like the record's 15 songs it was like we've always done 10 song albums in the past you know yeah and so it was just like we just wanted to be a band like so bad in that moment you know

be a band yeah I was like just write music and play for the fans and you know yeah yeah man so it's be it's be a ban again. Be that insecure kid that made split decisions again. I'm hoping so. You have to look back and like, how to, because what you were saying earlier about you and Sean going out, you're passing on demos, flyers, booking your own shows, hitting up people

on Mindspace. Shout out, shout out the Mindspace. You guys were networking. And do you find when you get older, you let you network less. And then you look back like, how did I, How was they going out all the time just hanging out with people? Yeah. It's weird, huh? Yeah. You got to reconnect with your young, like, networking self. You know where I noticed that a lot was on Warp Tour.

We did Warp Tour in 2017. And, like, no one hung out. Like, weird. It was weird, dude. It was like, it's funny, I bring up Amir again because Amir was on that you're warped. We were all stages right next to each other. Wait, maybe we play at the same stage.

Yeah, we play at the same stage. stage. And we were the only two bands in vans. Nice. But Warp Tour made us park with all the vendors because we were in a van. So it was the only two bands in vans were us and a mirror. And the only two bands that were where we got parked were us in a mirror. Everyone else was where the vendors parked. So literally it was just us in a mirror hanging out the whole summer. We didn't see anybody else, bro. Wow. We didn't see anybody. No one got off their buses. No one hung out. And even in the catering

line, they would just, they had like a catering tech. Have you seen this like a mayhem and stuff? Yeah. Dude, it's like not even the dude, it's just a dude that's like the food rudder. And I was tripping, I'm like, where are the bands? We didn't see anybody on that tour.

That's so fucking crazy. It was weird. Yeah, they have that. Because the carrying line is like an hour long. It's a beast. Yeah, but. If you want to hang out like we're like standing there we're like yeah who are these people like we don't know any of these people you know yeah um but you know us we always try to like make friends with bands because i mean we we've been self-managed for the last three years and even when we were had a manager you know getting tours was always like the challenge i don't like for us like as a death core band

and like getting off a victory and stuff it was like getting good tours it's just been like the battle you know what i mean and finally like getting some like decent opportunities i think they came from our friends bands getting bigger like it came from you know like you guys and uh whitechapel taking us out when we put out slow death that was a huge that was the first time that we'd ever got to tour with you guys or white chapel in the states i know it's so fucking weird how that happens weird right but like that was a huge opportunity for us like playing not fest like so i think you know just kind of I'm trying to think like the

the diart tour we just did before the shutdown like that was a homie hookup you know that's because we were buddies with the die art guys and it's like man I kind of think about like for the most part like other than maybe like warped all the best tours are from friends saying hey let's go on tour together

yeah and that's kind of how it's always been like even going back to that first one burning the masses hey let's go on tour together you know me and Jesse hey let's go on tour together it's like I feel like the best idea are just when, you know, the musicians are working on them. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. At the, you guys built, like, those relationships, you know? I mean, they're valuable because, dude, agents come and go, managers come and go. Who's cool as far as who can get you the shots or whose bands are buzzing? Like, all that stuff constantly changes. But if you have actual friends and they're going on tour and your band's going on tour, like you can keep the door you can keep the doors open the lights on you know

totally you're right you know and uh and with our experience with that we had twice uh we went with our manager he linked up twice with you know like the big time name managers and during both those periods

we got the least amount of tour offers ever and we were back with him full on we got the big tour offers and that's weird right that really taught me like oh this shit doesn't matter you get your own tours Yeah, a weird way you do I mean there's definitely some plugs out there But also those plugs are temporary Yeah

Like you might get the plug But if you don't like hit a home run Or whoever hooked you up Like then make a bunch of money on you You know Like there goes your great opportunity So it's like all about To me it's just you know

Hit up the guys in DI Head up the guys of Whitechap We'll hit up you guys Hit up the guys in thy art As long as like we're all friends We the five of us don't even need the biz Yeah We just go on tour together.

And there'll always be kids there. You know what I mean? And there's something about that. It's like, I don't know if you can say that about many other scenes. Yeah, huh. It's kind of special. Yeah, it's cool. You're right.

It's one of those scenes where like, oh, yeah, this is like a moment. Yeah. It's cool. And we have like a handful of great bands. You know, you guys, that art's great. Whitechapel's still killing it. You have like that handful of bands that still go out and deal it. I mean, it's the big four, I guess.

Yeah, Sig would be fucking awesome. The Big Four Death Corps? It's got to have it eventually. Yeah. Do we do we each go on tour together? Or maybe it's already happening. Yeah. I'm going to give you a heart attack. Yeah. But do, yeah, this is a special

time and it's cool if we can sit back and like, oh wow, it's pretty cool, man. You know, and something that we've, you know, if you guys earned it, we've earned it, that art is earning their spot. Whitechap was earning it. Put in that fucking time, You can't buy that time.

You earn the time. No, time on the road is really what, where you learn if you're a musician and then you figure out what it means. Like, you're kind of going back to the whole, like, how do you get in and breakthrough and all that? And it's like, it's not about your musical skill. That's like a baseline or prerequisite. Yeah.

Like, of course, you gotta be able to play the music. But really, that's not what it's about. What it's about is like, can you be a good friend? Can you be a good business partner? Yeah. Tour is hard work. It's, you know, everybody has a role and they're crucial there.

For the most part, nobody's on tour that doesn't have a job. Yeah. So it's like, you know, it's where you kind of decide like, oh, do I really want to do this or not? And it's also where you learn a lot. You know, you learn how stage runs.

You learn how changeovers work out. You learn the importance of being on stage on time and off stage on time. Like, you learn a lot of stuff that you need to know as a musician and tour teaches it to you real fast. Yeah. Real fast.

And it teaches you how to, oh, you know, you know that theme, like you, you know how you love being alone and having private moments? No, it's gone. But maybe that's like a good thing. You know, maybe it's like, I position myself in a place where I'd, like, never actually be alone. Maybe, you know, maybe that's where I was like, all these isolation feelings. I'm like, yeah, eight people in a van, that should do it. I don't feel alone anymore. Okay.

We're all married. Great. Great. All right. I'm not alone. You know, I'm not sure. Probably somewhere in my subconscious. I probably made that decision.

It's cool. I forgot who had made that. Analogies. Like, they said, picking band members, it's like swiping left on Tinder four times. And oh, I'm done, cool.

And then it working. I was like, oh, fuck. It's like, when you meet the band members, you didn't really, there's no conscious talk. Like, oh, we're going to go on tour forever. And we're all going to meet around each other all the time. No.

You just do it. I guess they're, you know, they're definitely, like, in the early days, you know, we had an original guitar player that, like, like, Rick, dude and everything, but then it's like, hey, you know, we're going to drive up to Fresno to play on Friday night. And it's like, yeah, I got weekend plans, dude. It's like, yeah, these are the weekend plans. Actually, yeah. It's like, no. It's like, okay, once you get past that phase, then it's like, all right, which game on, you know? Oh, yeah, they got to be all in. What, uh, what happened with Jordan? Uh, I think he just wanted to start his own business. Cool. I mean, honestly, like, that's basically, I mean, I wasn't given a reason, really, you know, when he left. So, and it was like no bad terms or nothing. Like, it was all good. Like, we just, we just did summer slaughter. And it was right before we were going down to South America with Slipknot. So it was, I think it was October, November of 19. And, you know, he's, like, super focused on a boat building. and like engine building.

And I mean, I'm a big proponent of small businesses and people going and throwing up their own shingle and doing their own thing. Yeah. So like, I can't be mad at him for it. You know what I mean? Yeah.

It's like, dude, you want to have your own business building boats and you'll be it on the water. Like, by all means, go for it. I think that was just really what it was about. I think just, you know, and it's, again, it's like that life thing. Like, when you're in your 30s and you're seeing,

other people do other stuff. And, you know, the money you make as a musician, it's boom and bust. It's like, you might do a tour and you, yeah, I got 20 grad. And then you're like, this is all I got all year. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, it's boom and bust. It's not consistent. It's not always that comfortable.

Man, you miss out on all the family stuff back home. Like, so, you know, it's not like it's just a great time 24-7. You know, you know that it's work. You give up a lot. And so, hey, everyone makes a choice. You know what I mean? I'm glad he made that choice for him. Like, he's got mad skills, building boats.

So, dude, be an entrepreneur, be a business. Like, hell yeah, I'm all about that. That's great. Are you guys going to stay a four-piece? We're trying to, yeah. I think we will. The new record was written as a four-piece, just the four of us.

And, you know, dead of my arms. We were a four-piece, our first record, you know. And, yeah, like, Jordan brought a lot of great solos to the band, which we loved. And like that was really important for us at the time. Because I think we really wanted to let people know like, hey, we can be serious musicians. Like, you know, kind of trying to like prove the value of or the seriousness of deathcore and the musicianship of death core. Like, dude, you want to get technical?

You want to get into theory? Like, we'll go there. Yeah. We got you. What do you want? You know? And so that was awesome that we could explore that with him. But now that he moved on, it's like kind of that whole just like, we're just back in the bedroom going.

dude, that riff's dumb heavy. You know, like, does it make you make the face? Oh, that's heavy. Put it on the record. You know? Like, that's basically, that was literally our litmus test. What about this riff? Oh, that's a good one.

Put that on. Like, if it made us, made the face, it goes on the record. There you go. You know, and it was like, you know, it's like, sure he had the technical proudness. There's like no debating that. We're just self-taught dudes. But as far as like, you know, we still got all the heart.

always had yeah so yeah I mean you heard the new tracks that come out yeah we're ripping the same as we always did and Sean man he's such a huge writer you know he's been writing the majority of the material from day one you know wow so his the card-of-fake sound is is him yeah man those are his laughs you know it's full it's full intact which you know that kind of explains like we still have like that piece intact it's kind of a commonality I see where like bands that are around for a long time I still have their their signature sound. Yeah.

You know, so it's used that, uh, that, uh, that, that, that, that Sean's doing that and yours doing it and, you know, Fred and Corey, you, you had, you had that fucking strong foundation there. You can't, if that, if that, it's like, if that's like, dude, you're fucked. I don't know. Do you? I probably give up. Yeah, same.

I'd be like, I can't do it. Same, man. I would. It's too much work on my own. So I guess I'll just drown. I'd be like, well, we'll just wait till someone offers us a lot of money for a reunion. You know, I don't know. Yeah, dude, Sean's a big piece, dude.

Oh, yeah, totally. Like, he kind of, it's weird. Like, you know, because he's behind the kit, I don't think people really realize that like, you know, light of my face, slit, risk savior, hell chose me, uh, see, draw me in blood, die without hope,

uh, World War X's the song. Like, those are all Sean's songs. Wow. He wrote all those. Those are his. You know what I mean? So it's like, uh, he's been writing hits since day one.

You know what? I just, just keep doing it. what you're doing man. That's great. And he's actually become a better guitarist lately because when Jordan left, he was like, I got the right, like a madman. And so I think he kind of like put that,

because Sean and I were like kind of similar dudes like, you know, always sort of like feeling like we're behind the eight ball. And, you know, so he just like, he went hard on guitar. I got a brand new seven string from Ivanez and everything. Sick.

Started going. He wrote a brutal record. Him and Corey, like they, I have to admit, man. Like those dudes stepped up and they just were fucking riff machines and they they they wrote some fucking riffs That's great. Yeah it pushed me like as a vocals I'm like oh damn he's a gnarly riffs You know I can't get gnarly over here some good put a good roll over that you know Yeah, do you have to you ever like you guys ever come up with like a riff and then you're like It's not it's not that good but but that's the rip that like will stay in your head a month later a year later

Yeah, I mean that sometimes that's kind of like this one song we just put out Pray for Peace, it's like it's a basic hook riff for the chorus It's not really even that brutal And it's not really complicated But damn, it's catchy You know, so

We're like, hey, throw it in You know, and then of course some of the comments are like This isn't that heavy And it's like, don't worry, there's a lot of looks on the record Like, you know, one riff is a little more catchy than another Don't trip, we got you Yeah Yeah, you got to throw in some

Some cachedness with the extreme music. Yeah, I mean, we're all about contrast. Contrast, yeah, for sure. Where do you see what do you see the Death Corps scene going? Hmm. You know, honestly, I hope it gets,

it needs to get, like, acknowledged first, to be honest, you know what I mean? Uh-huh. Like, it needs to be co-opted by metal at large. You know, it's still,

we're still the juggalos of metal. That's how they look at Death Corps. Like, even, on World War X, dude. Everyone's telling us, oh, don't call yourself Death Corps. Don't call yourselves Death Corps. No, no, no. You're a metal band. I was like, are we?

I think we're a Death Corps event. No, you're not. And it's like, okay, sure, we're a metal band. Great. Whatever you want. But we really just said forget that this time around. And thankfully, like, it's nice to see, like, you know, Slaughter and Lorna, like,

kick down the wall for acceptance as far as like a younger generation not having that gatekeeper mentality. Like they're just all about it. Yeah. Like nobody's like, you know, before it was just they shut the door in your face if you're a death core, you know, and that's not happening anymore. I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing new bands get a chance.

You know, I'm seeing young death corps bands like get treated like they're legitimate bands. Wow. And that makes, that makes me feel like, oh, we do have an opportunity because like when all of us were coming up, we were. we were like, you know, they were all the red-headed stepchild of death metal, you know? Yeah.

And no, oh, can't take a death core band on tour? You know what I mean? That's going to ruin our image, our cred. Yeah. And I think that's finally over. Yeah. And I just want to see it acknowledged at large. Like, Grammy now I'm a death core band already. Like, they're so, so late on that.

So late on that. So late on that. It makes me irate that they cannot they can't even consider the genre. It's true. It's still like, yeah, like the genre is not respected yet.

You know how many records? Death Corps sells? You know how many streams? Death Corps does? You know how many rooms? Death Corps sells out? And they will not acknowledge it. Because I don't like it.

And it's just like, first of all, that's got to go away. You got to recognize that this is a genre that has power, has fans, and it isn't online hype. Like,

these are bands that have, you know, 15 years of road work and real fans. But, you know, between us, you guys, white chip,

that's 45, five years of road work. Yeah. Take a serious. Yeah. You know what I mean? So let's see that happen. And then I think you'll finally actually see if Death Corps bands can actually get a chance to like be big bands.

Then the whole thing will start working. Because if you just cut us all off at like 600 cap rooms, then that's all the genres that are ever going to get there. You know what I mean? Yeah. So that's my feeling. They need to acknowledge, the biz needs to acknowledge it at large. you know and maybe that'll happen in these this next year I think it's starting to that the whole like you know deathcore is the worst music on earth is finally starting to

change yeah finally it's crazy how long that shit takes man it's just man people are afraid of originality yeah they they hate it the music biz hates it yeah it's weird it I mean if you know the biz it's not weird but it seems you're like oh That's kind of counterproductive, but then if you actually, you're like, oh, it makes perfect sense. You know what I mean? It's like, you can't monetize something that's outside of the system, so keep it outside of the system, right? Yeah. You know, that's finally changing.

So, hey, let's see some death court bands get opportunities. Like, someone's got to go out with Slipknot already. You know what I mean? Like, someone's got to go out with Rob Zombie. Like, you know, it's like, you guys went out with corn. I think it's like the biggest tour I can think of. Yeah, right? Like, were Islamogad taking any of these death corps bands out? No, I know there was talks. It's never worked out. Ammon Amarth, behemoth, arch enemy.

Like, it's so weird. Like, dude, these bands sell tickets. These bands will pack rooms. Not even on the list. You know what I think the problem is also is, there's no, there's no vision. I sure I do a quick story of mine. speaking of like we let the big manager agency we're only with with Jerry now he got us that that coroner so like the whole reality is like

it was Jerry and he got us a tour we were among I can say names but we were in New York and we were talking to a booking agent a current one that helped us get get that tour awesome and that was very

we were going to write the self-titled. We want to take like a year off, two years off. We want to three years out. We want to like stop touring to focus on writing great music. We could keep doing this for our scene, for like for us, for our future, the whole scene. Yeah. You know, so, dude, you're right. You guys need to write a sick record.

Take all the time you want. We got home. He dropped us. Fight on site. I'll just say it. That's fight on site. It's like, we fucking can't win. Even when like we got like a sliver of like.

By being like doing, we got really lucky with all these tours we got for, for, it's for, we all benefited from that. Oh, yeah. And then we got shit on right. We got home, we got fucking shit on. That makes no sense. No, but see, but that's, dude, that's the biz. And that's, this is what I'm telling, like, that's what I'm talking about. The what have you done lately for me?

This is why we're all scarred individuals. It's because no matter what we do, we're just waiting to get axed. We just, you know what I mean? Like, this is why we're going through because it's like, at every turn, you just, Someone's just waiting to screw you. You know what I mean? I know. And it's like, damn, man.

It's like, I thought we were supposed to be just like artists perpetuating good art. But I know, dude. Couldn't be further from the truth. So weird, dude. Yeah. It's like, okay, I mean, so, okay, what does that mean for us? But what does that mean for our genre? If like, we literally, what, we got a fucking corn tour, dude.

Like, all right. We're going to, that seems good. We're going to take a break and let dudes. And we get fucking dropped. It was so shocking. I mean, shout out to JJ that, you'll, you know, got us, but it was so shocking.

Everything you were just saying, like, this is where we're at. This is where we're at. Yeah, so that's what I'm saying. So, it's like, look, for Death Corps to, like, take the next step and for us to get, you know, more new young bands, like, different, you know, sounds across the Death Corps, subgenres, you know, blackened, beat down, you know, straight up old school Death Corps, like, whatever you want to call it. Like, it just has to be opportunity. And if it's, if it's just, you know, four bands, like, scrapping it out to the death, like,

oh, we got to get this, you know, 600-capped tour, you know, like, just not enough meat on the bone. And the scene's just going to wither. You know what I mean? Yeah. Totally. But I don't think that's happening. And I think the tide is changing.

Like, seeing, you know, brand of sacrifice and, like, some of these new bands pop up, like, distant, mental cruelty, like, signs of the swarm. These young bands that are gnarly and brutal, and they're getting chances, and people are embracing them right out of the gate, and they're not getting shit on for the first decade of their career. It's like, okay, maybe the tide has changed, and when we get kind of back on the other side of this,

like, you know, it's like, I can remember as recent as slow death. We still get a decibel review. They gave us a two. And all the guy did, a two out of ten on slow death, which is a good record, by the way. I'm pretty proud of that one. Great selling record, too. like sold 30,000 copies.

Like it's not a bad record. It's like 10 million streams on it. He gave it a two. And the whole description in the article was just his opinion on how horrible the genre was. And then he compared it to a trip to Taco Bell. What?

There's a real article on Decibel. Fuck. Decible magazine printed this. And it's just like, dude, never once did you address any of the songs. You didn't talk about any of the lyrical content, any of the theme. Like, you're just shitting on the genre.

And that was 2016. You know what I mean? And so it's like, I'm glad to see that. That needs to go away. Because all that does is kill vision, kill artists. All that is a reflection of a lack of originality and a fear of originality. Yeah. So I hope that's gone.

Because I remember all of us, we took all that shit super personal, you know? And it was just like, dude, like that whole we can't win thing. Yeah. That was our we can't win. We, like, busted our ass on that record so hard. Like, spend a ton of money on the videos. Like, really try to go for it. Yeah.

And it was just, oh, garbage. And you're just like, huh. Oh. You know? Oh, okay. Yeah, right. All right. I see you.

Cool. Just so we know where you and I stand, you know. And I think from that point on, we were just like, you know, and then we go into World War X and everyone's still, don't call yourself a death court. It's like, man, it's like someone telling you, you know, don't be who you are. Whatever you do, don't say who you are. It's just like, this is weird, but this is music business. Yeah. So you see the genre getting brighter in the future.

I do, yeah, I do. I guess that was a really long-winded way to answer. Where do I see Death Corps go? Like, I see, I think we went through the valley. Like, we all went through it. Yeah. And I think our perseverance, like, talk about giving ourselves credit. Like, you're here so I can give you the credit.

Let me give you some credit. Like, all the bands now, that are getting a pat on the back. It's because you guys went and did it and had to get shit on and had to get shit and had to get... That's not death metal.

You should... How dare you? Right? We all heard that forever. Yeah, forever. You guys had to go through that so these bands could get, you know, embraced from the start.

And so that is a badge of honor that you should wear. Give yourself credit for that one. Yeah, we fucking did it, man. Yeah. And I'm glad that our bands like had the fortitude to kind of be the tip of the spirit.

eat the shit. Yeah. And be like, we're still here. Come on, guys. Yeah, it's all good.

You know, now we got some backup, you know what I mean? Put these young guns on the front lines, let them take a few shots. Yeah, we're all in our fucking wheelchairs.

All right, yuck. All right, kids. Someone can't beg and take us on tour, please. Oh,

fuck. Someone blow up because we can't. I know. Yeah, as we were saying earlier, we haven't even seen like the best of it yet,

I think. I think it's like that with most genres. I went to San Diego and saw corn with allergen chains. Oh, wow. It was good. That was been good. I mean, that was like the most recent U.S. tour.

Very recent. It was awesome. And I was seeing corn, I mean, so many times. But that day was different. I mean, at that point, they'd been, like, a band 25 years or so. But to me, I was watching them, like, they're corn now. Wow. They felt like, as a fan, it felt like they're corn, they're respected by all genres of music.

That's true. It took them that long to me just to realize, oh, wow, they're corn now. Damn. So was that year 25 we're going to get to? Sure. I guess, okay, we're, we got another 10 years. Yeah, I don't know. Dude, I mean, you got to think, man.

I mean, we're just talking about, you know, bands in the late 40s, early 50s putting out there, like, really high-quality stuff. We're born in mid-30s. Why don't we have to peak in our 50s, man? What can't be right now? You know? I mean, these days, dude, who knows? I mean, it could go longer. I mean, I'm personally looking at bands like,

Separatura, cannibal. I'm also Slip Mons on that list. The corns, like, just watching them, like, how long can you guys go? The thing I think about some of those bands is they kind of, they actually, like, got some to reap some of the rewards. That's the challenging thing about Death Corps. It's like, we're all, like, so working class.

You know what I mean? We're paycheck to paycheck. Like, obviously, the second touring stopped. Like, we're dead broke. You know what I mean? So, and it's like, I think, man, it'd be crazy to, you know, I don't know if those days of, like, that corn and slept not when they came up.

Like, those days are probably gone, I guess, as far as, like, getting those record deals and, like, that kind of tour support and all that stuff. Crazy time. Yeah. I mean, I guess there's other ways to make it now. You know, other platforms,

if you're able to evolve, you know, kind of get creative. So, it's still like a Wild West out there. It's still kind of like choosing an adventure.

You're right. And now there's not a one way anymore. There's a lot of ways. That's why I love seeing new bands come up like a spirit box. They did their own thing. They put out singles and now they have a record out.

All right, they're doing their own thing. It's cool to see bands do their own thing. There's no one way anymore. You guys, like, we could be like a similar band. but you could do one way we could do another way and it's it could be successful there's no like

gatekeeping one way or you got to this is the only way and that's it there's all kinds of ways now yeah and yeah it's kind of like pick your poison on which when you want to take you know so we'll see we're gonna try to get this YouTube and going on this tour coming up yeah

we're trying I mean we're trying to you know not be caveman you know like we think back like all right so we popped back in the Myspace days and I remember we would go on tours with like I remember we go out with like unearth or something bleeding through and they like they hated my space you know what I mean oh wow right you know because they're from the era of like we got a real record deal like yeah but A and R guy scouted us came out to the show and signed us you know and so I remember they were kind of you know they'd be like no my space bands right and so I'm like yeah all right well we came from my space whatever we figured it out and it's like yeah it's like all right YouTube and TikTok and everybody's doing that stuff it's like don't be a kid Hey man, like don't be that hater. Don't be a hater, dude. No, it's like, all right, figure out what's working,

jump on that shit, you know? Yeah, I mean, fans on any level or any age gap, I mean, we could all learn from each other scenes, you know, like the younger bands doing new stuff because learn from what we learned and accomplished. We could look back what the younger bands are doing. Like, we could learn from each other, you know, and find what works for us.

You know, maybe for you guys, it's YouTube. For me, I found, you know, YouTube or maybe for that band it's TikTok or find your one thing and I mean I mean it's if you like doing it do it and learn and don't you're right just don't be a hater. Yeah I mean

that's the thing too if you if you that's another thing like I think back to that era when we were just like trying to scrap it out you know emo was real big like screamo was super popular in 05 yeah like you know metalcore was just fucking huge in 05 but it's like we weren't

I don't really remember, like, there being, like, a group of people that, like, hated on the different genres. It was more like... Yeah, it's more like... Weird. No, we're metal kids. We just worry about metal.

Yeah. I don't know. But now it's like, everyone's, like, worried about whatever other genre is and, like, you know, dip it in and be like, your genre sucks, you know? Yeah.

So, we didn't waste energy hating. Yeah. And it's like, all right, so try to learn from lessons from a youth, like, how to get back to that carefree kid, like you were saying. Yeah. It's like, all right, well, you know what we did?

We didn't. We weren't haters. Like, we weren't, like, negative about other people's success or, you know, whatever. Someone popped off doing that or popped off doing this. We were just focused on our thing. And so we tried to just bring that back. Because I feel like we're at this kind of secular moment. We're, like, MySpace and Spotify. Like, I feel like MySpace trained us for Spotify in this weird way.

Like, as far as, like, look, it's monthly engagement. Like, you got to find a new way to pull people in. Totally. constantly. And so the weird way, I'm like, dude, it's just a different, you know, corporation. It's the same game, though, you know. You're right. Yeah.

Throughout your whole career, what would you have done differently? Is there one thing you would have done differently? Dude, I thought about that question a lot. Yeah. Over this last year and a half. Not the one thing, the thousand things I could have different. You know, that's like an important. possible question because there's like parts of you

that are like, oh, we never would have agreed to work with that agent, you know, or we never would have signed with victory, right? Because it was like a, you know, it was like a big hurdle in our career. It was this weird thing. But then you're like, well, then maybe we wouldn't have written hell chose me. I don't know.

You know what I mean? I don't, I don't, to kind of try to play armchair quarterback and look back and say, what could I have what choice would I have made differently? I guess I guess this if you sign a contract get a lawyer because we signed

our victory deal with no lawyer what? We didn't know anything we're kids fuck man they sent the contract to a FedEx in

Ohio we were out on tour I can't remember the city and we were just like yeah here's the number and they fax it through we just fucking sign it to FedEx

it back no way true story true story they FedEx you the contract and you signed it.

Yeah. Wow. 20 grand, dude. Wow. Right? 20 grand, you're like, hey, shit. Yeah, but when your kids and, you know, you did a, your last record cost $600, you're like, 20 grand to sign.

Of course, yeah. Fuck, man. And you know what did us in, again, going back to Jesse. Jesse was like, dude, just signed. Because they signed it. They just signed a victory. You want you to fucking take you down with them. Yeah.

Fucking Jesse. Jesse didn't even in the bed. Son of a bit. Yeah, so they got their deal when we were on that tour together. Fuck. So that was, you know,

summer 2006, I guess. We were on that tour together. They got their deal. And then we got our deal in, like, in November, I guess.

So a few months after. Wow. And like, you know, just you like told, like, double J or Bub, whoever was working there back then.

Like, oh, you got to check out of Carnifax, dude. Yeah. And, and, remember we got like the call we did the but the showcase like it's like old school days like we wait and had to do a showcase damn just for the label execs and it was that was a weird story dude

so this is yeah it's like i guess 2007 2006 kind of right around the end or beginning of one of those years and uh we just played in this it was like not too much bigger than this but like a little bit more space for an audience and they blacked everything out they had an ld and a sound engineer that were there just for us, just to like mimic a show. They made us get on stage, wait. They blacked everything out, and they opened, like, the back doors, and, like, everybody walked in. You could, you know, like, try to see, like, the silhouette, like, oh,

who's there, you know? And then we just played, and then when we finished, they kept all the lights blacked out. Everybody left, and then they turned the lights on, and then our A&R dude came back, and goes, all right, we'll give you a call, send you an email, whatever. We're like, okay.

Whoa. And then like 45 minutes later, we had the email. And then like the next day, we signed the contract that into FedEx. Wow. It was like, or maybe it was two days later because we were in Chicago because that's where their offices were. Yeah. And then we were in, I saw it Cleveland in Ohio.

So maybe one or maybe the next day or the day after we signed the deal. And they sent that email like 45 minutes after. I should have known something was up before we even signed this thing because I remember the guy told us. I can't remember the A&R guy's name, but he said. like, oh, we'll get you gas for the drive and blah, blah, blah, because we had to kind of go out of our way to get to the showcase. Yeah.

They never gave us gas money. Ooh. That I should have, that should have. That's a red flag, dude. Right there. Right there. I would have been like, but you said you're going to give us gas money and you didn't. Huh?

I mean, like, oh, I'll take that back. But whatever. We signed it. We did it. We did seven years. We got out. We're on NB now. Live and learn.

You know? Live. So that's, that's your one. I guess, yeah, it's getting a lawyer. And then it's also like, it's kind of like, you know, I'm married, been married, happily married, love it. And I realize, you know, I had a lot of failed relationships before. And I realized, dude, like, the thing I see the parallel between Sean and my wife is their friends. And that's the thing is like, dude, if you're not in a band with your friends, like actual friend.

Yeah. Good luck. Good luck, man. You know what I mean? It's like being in a relationship with someone who's. like, oh, they're hot. But it's like, we don't even talk about.

Like, we don't like the same movies. We don't like the same music. Yeah. You want seafood. I want steak. Like, what are we doing? Oh, yeah. And it could be like that with musicians.

Like, oh, dude, he's a sick drummer. Dude rips. You know? Right. I didn't even thought about that. Yeah. And you're like, okay. Yeah, dude rips.

But we ain't friends. You know what I mean? It's like, he needs a rip in some other band. Yeah. And it's like, that's kind of what I learned is like, at the end of the day, it just comes down to the strength of that relationship and if you actually care about that person you're actually friends and you actually have

like a common goal and common interest you can get pretty far totally so i would say yeah being a band with your actual friend and then you and your actual friend need to get a lawyer before you sign anything you got those you should be said after that that's how that's good everything else is up to you you know especially i mean especially like like the language they they use it's like cross collateralization of royalties like i don't know watch out for that one I don't know a lot of these words That's code for you're never getting paid Took us about 25 grand to learn that

Damn dude Yeah the language they use You definitely need a lawyer man Yeah we're just kids We just saw $20,000 and we're like great You saw you saw one number you're lacking now 20 looks good Yeah

It could have had a fucking negative And then you probably probably went and saw it I mean we just You know We wanted to be on the label with Darkest Hour with BT Bam, with our friends in a mirror. You know what I mean? We went on tour with, we were going on,

oh, we might have been on tour with Whitechapel at that time. It was a weird tour. It was like, my children, my bride, headlining. Nice. And then like us and Whitechapel and then across five April's. I'm in the way back machine right now. Let's go. And I remember this is before they had their Metal Blade deal.

They just put out Somatic and they were still on that sick. London label and we were like yeah dude side with victory I was like paying it for like Jesse it's like Stockholm syndrome I'm like please I just need friends in here with me oh my god but yeah they ended up signing a bow blade but

you know it was we were all getting deals back then we were all trying to grind I mean you guys got the century deal yeah you know like you know we're all just trying to do it try and do it yeah and now you learn speaking of contracts and learning even we have a lawyer dude it's it's uh it's

I didn't know, like, I didn't know, we, we signed our masters away until, like, six months ago. Whoa. Although, like, so we don't own our master's. I have thought, like... When did that happen, bro? That's kind of heavy. It's a fucking heavy one. I was actually, like, sat and, like, wait, what does that contract say?

And, like, we had a lawyer look and, like, oh, shit. Yeah, you don't own your master's ever again. That's brutal. I was like, oh, fuck. I could have swore it, especially when you're trying to think back at that time, you're like, I thought like I said like in 10 years you'll like own like on your matches. In 10 years the rights revert and then they probably had some language in the next paragraph. It was like that doesn't count.

Yeah. Actually, uh, that last paragraph doesn't mean anything. I hear it's in that the next, uh, is what it actually means. Dude, it's like I was so shocked. How did I? How do we let that shit happen? Then you have these conversations and you learn, wait, that's actually very normal.

That's actually a very normal clause in and in the contracts, which back then maybe worked, but now as we come into a little bit, you know, in 2020s and so on. I mean, you probably own your master's. Or at least, like, have a bigger percentage. So when you're 10 years down the road, 15 down a row, like, you know, as far as... Yeah, 50% or whatever.

You got to get something. Yeah, you know, it's... That whole master's thing is weird. Like, our first record, we were trying to do a re-release of it. Like, because it's never been on vinyl. It's never had a wide release. Oh, wow. Nothing.

You know, because on a little indie label that, like, got sold and whatnot. And oddly enough, so the label we were on also had a Fallout Boy. And they put out Fallout Boy's very first album, like very, very first one. Wow. And Fueled by Ramen wanted to re-release that record. Yeah. So they bought the whole label. And Fueled by Ramen's Sony.

So our record ended up with Sony. Wow. And we go to Sony and we're like, hey, we want to buy this to re-release it and do a vinyl. And it wasn't even worth it to get the lawyers on it. They're just like, nope. So Sony owns our first record. Wow. And just doesn't give a rat's ass about letting us or anyone do anything with it.

And I'm just like, what a weird world. It's a weird. It's a weird world. It's like, how did that $600 record end up owned by Sony? Weird. It's weird when it gets like legal, you know? Yeah. And then I think back, I'm like, we didn't even sign a contract for that thing.

Who sold it? Yeah. Like, where's the signature that says I signed that over? That doesn't exist. I'll tell you it doesn't exist because we were there and no one signed anything. I know.

And then you're like, huh. You know, like, oh, okay. Wait, if I had a lawyer, could I just go get that back? You're telling me you can't sell me something that I never even signed away. Show me the contract that says you own that.

Right? Wow, what the fuck, man. It's a weird world. That's so, that's so strange. But they own it. So, figure it out. That's so fucking strange, man. Yeah, that's the music business.

It makes no sense. Makes no sense. I guess what we're trying to do is share our experience with like, you know, maybe go back and forth a little bit. Maybe like read the fine print a little bit more, you know, maybe a little bit, especially now. I hear labels are doing some weird deals now. Like now you've got to throw in like streaming numbers and I don't know where it's going.

It's crazy. I mean, I guess pretty soon here we could all just be independent. just working the apps, right? Mm-hmm. Because, I mean, there's no, there's no best buy a retailer that you need to have a relationship with in, so they take in 15,000 physical copies

and give you good placement. Like, yeah. That's what the label did. I remember that. And that doesn't need it anymore. Wow. And if you go to the label and you ask for like, you know, what are you doing on Spotify?

What are you on this and that? They look at you, like, you know, you're from the future. So it's like, huh, okay. So you like, you don't really have a, that much of a handle on this. You're searching just like us. We're all just like,

do this, right? And if everybody's just in the do this, you know, like if we're just throwing darts at the board, I mean, I guess bands are just gonna probably go for it. Like, what was that band of Canada? Protest the Hero. They got like 300 grand

to do that independent record. You remember that? Wow, I heard about something like that. Yeah, they just threw up a crowd fund and they're just like, hey guys, our dealer expired. It's just us now. So we just want to make this record for you guys

Help us out and they ended up getting $300,000 And You know, I don't know how many copies they sold But I've never made 300 grand From all eight records combined In my record deals So that seems like they got a pretty good deal Just going straight to the fence

And I mean, dude, if you can just do that It's like, well, the whole idea That the, you know, the labels the bank They're going to front you the cash Okay, cool So you're a bank Because there's no best buyer topic so you're just lending me money to make my art now but it's like world's worst interest rate oh and by the way you own half of it after you give me the loan yeah it's like why don't I just borrow money from somewhere else or just go the fan base and not owe anybody other than the record and you know protested that they had a lot of success with it I mean I wouldn't be surprised if we see it happening more you know metal and rock is always a little late and a lot of bands are still in their deals you know they're multi-year multi-album deals so it's yeah can't just

jump you know what I mean yeah kind of have to let them play through so I think as more you know because we're probably all living off deals that were signed five six seven years ago still most bands are I would imagine yeah still you're still you're still you're still uh even if you want to something you're still kind of living with what you sign like at least five five right you're the deal no that that deal was probably like that contract was actually probably crafted in like the early two thousand and they just plug your name and their numbers it right sure you know what I'm saying so like these are old deals that they have to like expire and play out. And I think as we get

into a position where like bands aren't resigning or young bands are breaking independently, you'll probably see more and more bands just reaching to their fan base directly. You know, hey, put the pre-order in a few months earlier than

you normally would and let's just do this thing without having to get the loan from the label and then as a band it's like you'd get anything up on a DSP. Yeah. I need the email address and a way file. Yeah. It's like It's just a little bit of lakework and you're on Apple,

you're on Spotify, like anyone could buy an ad. Yeah. You know what I mean? So it's like they kind of just look like are starting to look like middlemen, you know? Yeah. Which is one of the main reasons why I'm doing stuff like this. Like so we could talk about this stuff. Now it's not like in the biz.

Now it's like now it's in the open. Right. Now now people can hear about it. Now the label could eventually hear all the way people are actually talking. talking about this out loud. Now it made me, lets a fire under their ass to figure out something, you know? You know, the music biz has always been slow

to evolve. You know, it's like, look at how film and TV got on piracy so quick. Music biz didn't, you know, and then we just look at film and TV, they got all their own apps, they own their content. Music biz didn't. Like, where's the Roadrunner app with the Roadrunner

catalog? Like, you know, like, straight up, whoever's running that place, like, you guys missed the mark so hard. You have the catalog, you have the capital, you can hire anyone you want. And this isn't just, it's like all these labels.

Yeah. No, they just handed the keys over to Big Tech. Fuck, dude. You handed the keys over to Spotify. Now we're in a race to the bottom. Yeah. Good job. You know, it's just like, man, the music biz just struggles to keep up. Totally. They do.

Yeah, just wants... It's that fear of originality, dude. The music is fears change whether it's genre platform how to sell a record yeah they're living fear you know they gotta be faster to innovate and evolve man the bands will do it

the young bands will be what forced to change because they'll go they'll find themselves in a position where they'll go wait you want to offer me how much dude we make more on our YouTube and we own all our shit pass and so either the deals will get way better or you know

Time will sort it out. Yeah, or yeah. Or, you know, hey, our singer has this many followers on IG. We have now, we have, like, pull and reach. Right. We have a band's like, you know, when we were coming up, we had no reach. So we had to sign something to get, like, a reach.

Putting you in, you know, the record shop, the label buying you a AP ad, you know, the label paying for your music video, getting you on MTV2 is like, yeah, you can't do those things on your own. You need a label for that. Yeah. That's not the landscape anymore.

No. No, that changed. Anyone could put up a video on YouTube. Yeah. Anybody. Anybody. And guess what? It can get really popular and you didn't need a set.

You didn't need a director. You need anything other than the phone that's already in your pocket. So, you know, label's going to have to think of some ways to keep their bands, I think. Yeah. Wasn't it Lady Gaga that filmed a music video slowly on, like, an iPhone? Did you hear about that? I don't doubt it. I don't doubt.

I know they've done whole, didn't Steven Soderberg do a whole movie on it? iPhones? Whoa. Yeah, he shot a whole movie on iPhones. Had them like in the steady rig and everything, but oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, whatever. I phone, you know. Wow. It's so crazy what we have in our pocket, dude, it's, it's, it always blows my mind like, dude, like what we, the technology we have in our hands. Yeah. Like this, like, we didn't have this like five years ago. Like, and I always forget, like, what do we do when we're driving when we had no phones? We woke up and it sat there. for hours I forgot what we did

just look out the window watch stuff go by you got a lot of cool trees and lots of dirt that's why you play like slug bug and like all those dumb games because there was nothing to do you know

you're like looking at where's that light plate from you know you see the fucking a desert for hours yep like driving out to Vegas or something oh yeah

yeah hey you know maybe it's a good thing right yeah come up with some of your own thoughts totally I think I think that that's definitely lacking

need. Yeah, there's something to be said that would be like, we're not on your phone, just sit there and think. You know, I try to make a conscious effort

to like not kind of have that be like a go-to just like, oh, I'm bored or like you see something else with their phone out

and you just kind of like, well, guess I'll check something. You know what I mean? It's like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to just go against that feeling. And that's another thing

I'm trying to do, not use the GPS as much. Same. I'm gonna remember these roads, you know? Same, dude, yeah, same. Maybe that, you know, just getting bored on lockdown, trying to complicate my life. Yeah, remember these roads.

And then when you do, you feel so good. Yeah, I don't need the GPS. Woo, you know, I'm ripping them. Every once in a while, you'll get lost. But when you get there, I'm like, oh, shit, I remember where I was going. You know what? Sometimes I was figuring something out, it's a good thing.

It is, man. It keeps the wiring in your brain, you know, firing. And you need that, man. It's like a muscle You need to keep that shit going Do you guys are going on tour next week? I know Shit, that's dope

I know, it's a grind That's great, man Yeah, we're bringing a good show We're gonna try and not get out of the park But I mean, you know, Hopefully we got some more sellouts And then Got Black Dahlia in September

Which is just like a monster That's great, man Yeah You guys got ginger In September, October? October December, it's eight weeker We haven't done eight weeks in a long time That's kind of a dream come true though, right?

actually it is I mean yeah it's been a long time I'm both friends you know obviously time to all this time off okay

year and a half but we haven't done a tour that long I don't know how fucking long man eight weeks I mean that's that's some work

right there eight weeks at work was nine ready you'll be all right yeah I'm ready it's not gonna kill you

two shows sold out hopefully there's oh dude you guys so many sellouts on that thing yeah

that thing's gonna be a banger Such a major. Ginger is fucking killing it right now, man. They're awesome. They're proud of them. They put out that new song, it's fucking sick. Yeah, I got to check.

When is there a new record coming out? Is it on that tour? It might come out before. I haven't heard much for when the records drop him, but I think they dropped this song this weekend was fucking, oh, damn. Yeah. They do have a really unique sound. It's great.

You got, uh, let's see. Launchpad sold out. Nashville sold out. Yeah, it's fucking badass, man. We got, uh, what, the black sheep and the, The 89th Street Collective and OKC are about to sell out. Pretty close here.

They're like 80% cap. Dude, it's great. So you guys are hitting the Emerson as well. I heard they got new management. You know, we heard this rumor. The new Emerson has been rumored. So, hey, we'll do some recon. Okay, please.

We'll let the boys know. We'll go and check it out. Because we're playing the Emerson as well. Okay. I think we have one update in Ginger and we're going to fucking hit the Emerson. And you're like The anniversary

I heard that again Like JJ fucking Hatha Naka I think he's like There's new management New new new cool shimer All right Let's go Well let's show us

I'm gonna wait till you play there Then I'm gonna hit you up so How is it dude I'll give you the scoop How is it Cool Two tours coming up The new songs are great

It's awesome We got another new track Coming right As the tour ends July 23rd Oh great That's another new one. Cool.

Video? With a video. Nice. With the music video. We shot a couple of videos in Arizona like three weeks ago, four weeks ago. And easy? In Asia, yeah. Nice, man.

Shout out in Phoenix, yeah. Badass. Yeah. I'm trying to stay busy. Well, Sean, thank you for doing this podcast, man. I had a great chat with you. Thank you, bro. It was awesome.

Where can people find you? Yeah, IG. Obviously, I'm on IG. Yeah. You know, it's weird. Like, I really kind of, like, didn't use social media all that much. I mean, we were using it to, like, promote band stuff. But, like, other than that, I was kind of trying to just stay, like, I don't know,

was getting too abstract. Yeah. I was in a bad place and everything. So, yeah, I mean, IG, I'm on IG, find me there. Scotty and Lewis, the band, Carnifax. We're working on our YouTube channel. Great. So follow us on YouTube.

It's just Carnifax. Great. We're going to be doing a bunch of stuff on tour. You know kind of giving people a look at the road and all that stuff Yeah, do it people love seeing that dude I do Yeah I you know Studio practicing tour it yeah Film all a bit dude we're trying

We're trying to like actually be You're YouTubers which is man it's weird but we're gonna try it You guys got it man We'll try it we'll make it up just like you know The last thing we did it's like the band Just make it up make it up Fuck it try it Well Scott Ian Lewis man

Thank you appreciate it Appreciate it. All right, one. Later. See you guys.