Garza Podcast - 24: Eric German | Music, Entertainment Attorney

Episode Date: August 2, 2021

Eric German is a entertainment attorney and represents bands including Five Finger Death Punch, Bad Wolves, and many others. We talk about if bands should still sign to a label, balancing obsession with life, and much more. SPONSORS: Click this link to purchase from Sweetwater & help support the podcast: imp.i114863.net/rnrmVB  

Our following guest is an entertainment attorney and rep be a sense bands including five-finger and death punch, battle wolves, asking Alexandria, and artists at all levels. He's been a respected name in the music industry for many years, so it's an honor to have him here on the podcast. We go into the legal side of things, like talking about if bands should sign to a label or not, what to look out for, et cetera. As always, I hope you enjoyed this conversation. Let's get into it.

Please welcome, my friend Eric German. Eric German, you are in my hometown. Honored. I love it, dude. This is amazing, and it's an honor for me to be at Suicide Silence HQ. The H-Q. Oh, gee. I mean, so many great things were created in this space,

and it's just a totally cool vibe and total pleasure to be anywhere near the energy and mystique that is your band and everything that you've done. I mean, it's been so meaningful to so many people. and sort of an important part of my career arc. So I'm, you know, I'm as honored to be here as apparently you are to have me. I am. You made that long drive to come down here.

Oh, of course. You honored, pleasure, man. It's so cool. My dang Eric German is coming down here. Oh, shit, dude. I saw it as a great opportunity for us to reconnect. I mean, I've known you for, I don't know how long now, 15 years, 14 years, 12 years, I don't know. 15 plus years, I want to say.

Yeah. And, you know, any opportunity to get to spend a little time and chat with you. And, of course, I'm a fan of the podcast. I've seen the legendary Mike Gitter, the incomparable Jerry Club. Yeah. The wonderful, enthusiastic and beautiful man that is Jose Mangin and all of these other wonderful guests that you have that I consider some of my favorite people in the industry. Yeah. And so when our mutual friend, Doc Quill also told me, hey, dude, you should do Chris Garza's podcast.

I was... You said that? Yeah, I was excited then to get the invitation from you. Dang, dude, shout out to Doc Hoyle. Yeah, X-Man podcast. He's kind of a... I'm saying that's on camera, whoa. But he's kind of...

I kind of look at Doc is like a mentor. I mean, because I listen to his podcast a lot and seeing how he like, you know, toxic gas. He's so, like, articulate and his questions are great. I'm like, damn, like, what? I hope, like, one day I could, like... I'm a two-time X-man podcast. I know, yeah, great.

And I now did the second, I just this last Friday, did the second time on Ryan Downey's Metallica podcast. You mentioned, Chris, I don't know if we were recording, but you mentioned you're playing my favorite album as I come in the door. I mean, guys, anyone who's considering being on the Garza podcast, know this. The man greets you with your drink of choice.

It happens to be black coffee for me today. Yeah. He puts on your favorite album on this. I did. Metallica, Master of Puppets. And he wore a Metallica shirt. Because I'm such a metallic fan. But, yeah, I did Ryan's podcast twice and docs twice.

So I'm not sure which one is my true home. But I got to say, this whole podcasting thing is wonderful for us because we get to deep dive. We get to really talk about music and really talk about topics and get, you know, it's one thing to see you at a festival and catch up for 10 minutes in between bands shouting. It's so hard, man. It's hard. I'm trying to get better at that. It's like you, like you see like your, you see like your, you're. your friends you haven't seen for years and people that you care about, but you only have

your short amount of time and it's loud and you can't really like, you can't, it's hard to deeply connect with like an old friend. Sure. So this is like perfect. Yeah. I remember, I remember going to see mayhem, one of the early Mayhem Fest and standing out, I'm watching Testament with you with my wife in, I don't know what year that was. But been being very, very excited about your early ascension.

on Century Media. I think we were, it might have been Ossfest. Yeah, maybe it was Ossfest. I don't know. Weird. I don't know. Or some San Bernardino

something with a second stage situation. Something. Right? You know, I was just thinking about this. You, whenever I introduce somebody, like I introduce my girlfriend

or a friend to someone else, I think about you. Because for so many years, like, you are great at introducing people to other people. Like, you are so good at paying a picture of the person you were introducing. Oh, that's such a sweet thing to say because to me, life is about connection and meeting people and introducing and connecting cool people to cool people.

It's probably one of my favorite things to do, right? And bringing us all together. That's why I love heavy metal music, Chris, because it brings, it as a community. We feel bonded. I see you with the Metallica shirt. I know we're cool, right? Maybe Metallica is a little bit mainstream. You can't be completely sure that somebody's cool if they have a metallic shirt.

But, you know, you get the point. But if I was out somewhere and I was far away from home and I saw someone with a suicide silence shirt on, I would probably give a little, you know, what's up, you know, walking by the airport or whatever. That dude's cool. Yeah, it's cool how you just feel that instant, like, connection. You just feel something. It's weird. Like you see a shirt.

It doesn't even have to be a band you like. Right. Isn't that weird? Like, oh, wait, they're wearing a band, a metal band that I don't listen. you enjoy it, but the fact that they're wearing it, like, you're like, you're, like, looking at him. Yeah, and the further away you are from home or the further out of your element you are, the broader the scope of bands that you're willing to tolerate for, you know, like,

well, I don't really like that, but at least the t-shirt's black and it's got a cool font, so I'm in. Yeah, black, cool, cool logo, cool font. They must be friends. I'm in. So. I'm in. Cool.

Eric, again, thank you for being here. I mean, I'm really, I'm excited to have you on because I really, I really, you want to get your side of your story and the industry. Sure. Because I had like, you know, I had a past few guests that had like legal issues. I'm like, damn, this is like a thing. It's a thing. In fact, I have a whole career based on it being a thing.

I know. It's crazy. And you were like ahead of the curve. Yeah. Like what made you start this journey to go into like the legal side? Well, you know, I used to play in bands. I want to be connected to the business in one way or another. but I kind of got more into copyright law and technology and litigation.

Always wanted to be more creative and artistic and played in bands in high school and kind of was always connected. I mean, I'm a metal kid, dude. I had posters on the wall and, you know, I wanted to, this was a lifestyle, right? It wasn't, it's not a phase, mom. I always wanted to be a part of this stuff. You know, one of my great mentors in all of this was your former attorney who passed away. I would love to give a shout out. I can't be here and not think of the great Ian Friedman.

This dude was, you know, he was always so passionate about the issues, and he cared so hard about his bands. He didn't care about his own personal agendas or what somebody else wanted him to do or he was never going to be bullied. He was going to stand by his principles to the dying day, and he literally did that. And, you know, I watched how he conducted himself, and I just tried to live up to that standard

and tried to do, you know, a lot of times I think what would Ian do, right? Wow, really? He was truly, truly a beautiful man and I'm sorry to have seen him gone. But, you know, other than that, I just, I really have always been connected to the music and I was always just trying to find a way

to be a part of it to add my, you know, whatever I bring to the table. Like if Ivy Meadows a giant potluck dinner, We all got to bring a castle roll, right? I bring the knowledge of the legal stuff and the business stuff and the negotiations and the people skills and the psychology and everything that goes with trying to be a guy behind the scenes making shit happen. Trying to keep the trains on the track. So, you know, there's a lot of that. Literally, I think I got doing the band stuff, as you know, or part of how I met you was I was doing primarily.

primarily litigation for major law firms and major record companies. And then at some point got hired by some people at a record company called Century Media Records. And they had asked me to assist. I believe I assisted them with a band name dispute and some other kind of run-of-the-mill legal dispute. And at some point, I got to know the owners, Robert Kompf and Oliver Vittler. who has also since passed away, and they had asked me to, if I wanted to help them with their legal issues at the company, I thought that was really neat. And they were really cool that they put their arm around me in a sense where they took me in and showed me the music industry

and taught me about the specifics of record deals, taught me about the, you know, they took me to Medem in France, they took me to South by Southwest, they let me sit in on the A&R meetings, They took me to, I remember going to dinner and meeting Duff McCagan or going to, and I remember your band, you know, when you were just starting to come up and just being completely enamored with the brutality and the, you know, everything about what you guys represented. And I think you know this. I was always a great advocate, maybe more on the label side, but always, always all about suicide science. You were. You were very, you were very, you were very, really supporter. And Jerry, very early on, turned to me for helping.

I had such a great relationship with your attorney, Ian, that we kind of, very early on, I was like, I'm not going to fuck with your bands, and you're not going to fuck with my shit, and we're going to work together to, you know, even when we're on opposite side. So I would often be on behalf of the label, and he would be on behalf of your band.

But, you know, we would get it done. For the most part, we got it done. Yeah. And, you know, I was sad to see you leave Century Media, But that certainly wasn't my choice. And nuclear blasts, a wonderful home, though. Monty Connor's fantastic. And obviously, Century Media changed over the years,

and the faces changed and the people. But there was a time, you know, your publicist, George Valley was a great fan of mine. Shout to George. Right. Oh, my gosh. Cheap money. Yeah.

I had lunch with them a couple weeks ago. What? First time I'd seen him in, I think, almost a year and a half or two years, like in person. How's he doing, man? He's doing great. He's a label called Seekin Strike with Randy Ray, that used to also be at Century Media at one point.

It was a Samaria before that. And they do, I think they have a band called orbit culture that's doing really well. Great. You know, they have their own label. But it was great to see him. And he was always the most enthusiastic guy in the room, right? When we were early days of heavy metal,

talk about an introduction, right? That dude knew how to, hey, you, meet Disney. And, you know, running around Hollywood with him, I met all the different bands. And so that whole vibe of those people that worked in that building in Hawthorne, if you remember. Yeah, the Hawthorne building. That was my introduction to the music business for the most part. And, you know, you guys were a really important band.

There was a whole generation of, you know, in this moment, suicide silence, wind of plague. There were several that were coming up at the same time and reinventing Century Media. Century Media before I had had like an older generation of bands obviously European based but these American bands were starting to pop off and the LA office became you know the center of that and it was really

fun for me to watch you guys rise didn't you start playing in a warehouse there or something I mean apparently you started right here in this room something yeah didn't you guys used to rehearse in the warehouse or I know Jerry worked in the warehouse

I don't know maybe At some point, we played so many warehouses. I'm to be honest. You don't even remember. But that's how we knew Jerry was a guy who worked there briefly. Like, I don't know exactly how long or what years or whatever, but I always loved it. I saw on your podcast with Jerry, he's been your manager for 18 years. Pretty much, yeah.

Holy shit. Time flies because I always think of him as like a kid, you know, and to manage to work for that long. And I haven't seen Jerry in a while, although he hit me up recently because he saw that I was in the Ice Nine Kills video. And he thought that was really funny. Were you? So they just put out a video like last week. That's dope, dude. And so we got to texting and chatting and stuff.

So I'm sure, shout out to Jerry Cleve. I'm sure he'll find it pretty amusing that I'm sitting in the chair that he recently sat in, even though I haven't seen him in a while. That's cool. It's crazy that we're still kids in the sense. Isn't it weird that we're still in? metal we're still in the scene I said for life man

for life dude how that's crazy is that it's relevance right somebody said to me the other day that you stay relevant they stay that I found that as a compliment and I thought about it I was like wait a minute

you're right I mean because people do fade in and out but then there's that other layer of people that you see year in year out it's always the same motherfuckers right yeah and that's what I think your podcast

so I've seen a lot of those faces like I said the Jose's and the Mike Gitter's. I mean, Mike Gitter, how many lives has that guy had in this business, right? He's been touched and influenced so many different things. I see, by the way, Mike, your book is over there in the room. I see that it's right here. Usually it's here, but I got to keep the table. Right. But yeah, it's amazing. And the idea to stay relevant, I thought about it as the years race by and they seem to get shorter and shorter and things are happening quicker and quicker I realize that it is kind of a feat or accomplishment to still be relevant and to be part of the conversation.

Because the entertainment business can be cruel, right? And I know. As you've seen probably. Yeah. And I've seen a lot of people flash and have their big moment and then nobody cares anymore. Wow. And then, you know, so it's great to be able to still be here, like you say. Yeah, you're still here and people still talk about Eric German.

people still say your name in a, and I'm not even now but also in a positive light. Yeah, well, for most of them. There's a few that maybe aren't so happy with me. But that's part of the nature of what I do. I mean, I have to bad cop it sometimes, right? I have to be the guy that delivers the bad news or works through the breakup or helps to make a deal. Every time I make a deal with somebody with a band that lots of people want,

there's somebody else who doesn't get the band, right? And what you hope that you can do is the relationships do prevail and persevere and kind of rise above. But, you know, it's competitive. It's pretty hardcore out there. And, you know, a lot of people get really intense about this business of music, you know. Totally. And I think sometimes when there's not a lot of money involved, it's like throwing a piece of meat into a pool of piranhas. Everybody's got to devour any little bit that they can get.

Right. When there is a lot of money involved, shit, there's a lot of money involved. And so everybody gets even more intense, right? So either way, I think I find a different set of challenges in staying cool with people. But you make a great point. It's really freaking important to make sure that people are going to take your calls. And it's really important to conduct yourself with respect and to make sure that everybody understands that you got a good heart. and that this is really about this community of music.

I mean, what we're really trying to do is perpetrate, you know, perpetuate the cause of heavy music. And I see that, like, for example, you think that some people would, you know, metal really, the metal industry falls into two categories. There are some people that are playing what I call minor league baseball. What do I mean by that? they really want to be doing pop, but they can't get a job.

So they go to the metal stuff or the hard rock stuff. And it's really a training ground for them to go where they really want to be, which is a more mainstream position. And then you have the lifers. You have the people that are, they're not playing minor league baseball. They're not trying to make the majors. This is the majors. This is where they want to be.

And it's guys like the guys that you've had on your podcast that I don't think they're just trying to get their feet wet. so they can get a job working in hip hop. You know, they're really here for this, you know, and down for this in the long term. Yeah, it's really cool. Long term, you're talking like decades. Yeah.

You know, it's crazy. Like, I mean, I deal with people every day that are in its business, 30 years, 35 years, 40 years. Like I said, Gitter, I'm thinking that guy must have been, you know, that book, that's a zine he wrote in the 80s. Right? So in the 80s, he was fucking around with heavy music, right? And in 2021, he's fucking around with heavy music.

Still going. It's not a phase, mom. That's what I say, right? The 80s, 90s, wow. I just had a great pleasure of meeting your mother. I know. What beautiful people. And I wonder if she thought when you first started jamming out here and this journey,

if she had any idea that it would turn into everything that it would be so meaningful. to so many people. I know, and you talk about the connection of metal and the family aspect of it. I mean, they didn't really know what metal was until, like, I kind of came in, and then now they, like, listen to it. It's crazy.

So let me expose this. You told me your dad's a shredder on a keyboard, right? He's a shredder on a keyboard. So I'm A&Ring this situation, Monty Connor, and I've told Chris, he's got to have the dad. Dad's got to be on a track somewhere in his career sometime, right? That's a great idea.

Right? I'm hoping that it happens. You heard of here first. That's a great idea. Right? Imagine having your own dad on a metal record. Yeah. Well, my dad is a metallurgist, who's a scientist.

And so he always says, well, I mess with heavy metals too, but it's a different kind. Yeah. So anyway. Yeah, well, you probably get like your extreme focus and how sharp you are probably from, probably from your dad, right? I hope so. I mean, that would be a great honor. My dad is about the most focused guy I've ever met. Very serious and kind, but really dedicated to what he does for his craft.

And I think, look, all of us are really that, right? I mean, how much time you spend thinking about, you know, not just your podcast or your band or, you know, your entire career in this? It's probably most of your waking house. I know. It won't, like, you have the thing that people that life race have. It's called obsession. Yes, absolutely. And I think maybe you could help me and maybe other people that are dealing with this,

but you just can't fucking stop thinking about it. Yeah. And is that like a good thing or is that a bad thing? Well, they say do what you love, right? And you never work a day in your life. And so, you know, when the pandemic happened, the cool thing for me is I don't go on tour. I've never, I was telling somebody. the day. I've never slept a night on a tour bus, which is amazing, right? But the,

that's the one thing I really haven't tasted in this business. But the, you know, I do what I do with a phone and email and a computer and documents and I'm at my house and I'm wheeling and dealing, right? I used to be in the office and then the pandemic hit and I was at home. And there's really nothing to do, right? Nobody knows where to go. Everything's canceled over that last year. So what did I do? I just went to work. And it became work and working from home. I would roll out of the rack and turn on a computer and start going and take it all the way right until the end.

Wow. I have a wonderful family that I absolutely adore. And so, of course, lots of time with them interspersed, but, you know, I'm always working. You know, like my phone might ring when I'm in bed and maybe I might pick it up. You know what I mean? Wow. And my, but it doesn't feel like work. It feels like life.

It's just an extension of it. Now, can I burn out? Of course, right? And now as we've come out of the pandemic, we're taping this right now. L.A. County, which are we in L.A. County? No, this is Allen Empire County. Okay. So, but L.A. County had a mass mandate go back on last Saturday.

I heard about that. And so I teach Syracuse University's music business program. I showed up to teach today and everybody had masks on. Oh shit. I had to put on a mask. And like today, right? Yeah. Right?

I thought it was over. But for the most part, as this thing is ending and people, you know, I'm just gorging on travel and, oh, I want to go here. I'm going to go there and taking a family headed to Vegas tomorrow to go take my dog and my kid and my wife and my computer and post up by the pool and go see all the clients. that are in Vegas and do that thing, right? And I did that about a month ago in Nashville, and the travel bug is here. I'm looking for a little R&R before the fall kicks, all those festivals, all those tours,

all those social obligations, the kid back in school, and everything is just going to be, boom. So I'm thinking we're in the last few weeks of whatever this was. Right, so hopefully. You're right, because school starts back up when the summer is over. Yeah. Yeah, the whole, I mean, sports, no, the whole nine.

My kid goes back to school, I think, August 18. And today is, you know, July, whatever. I don't know if you say the dates. 20th? Yeah. And so, you know, what do we got three, four weeks of before, whatever, the fall? And by the way, I think, you know, I'm a super fan of the Raiders, right? So I go to all the games.

So half my Sundays are all taken care of throughout the fall, right? Is that why you're going to Vegas? I'm going to Vegas because I found that a lot of people moved out of Los Angeles. And L.A. really doesn't feel like L.A. right now, you know, the same way it used to when you and I were running around at the rainbow or whatever, right? It doesn't feel like that anymore, right? At least it doesn't to me, right? Yeah. And I think that so many people move to places like Nashville or Las Vegas or Austin, Texas or something during a pandemic.

Yeah. I think it's easy to go and spend a few days in each one of those towns. And I kind of like a nice hotel room and just kind of chill and see everybody and have a dinner. And maybe it's a little bit of a vacation or maybe it's a little bit of checking on people. And I have a band, a big band I work with that's in a recording studio now and Vegas. And a couple weeks ago, I had a big band I work with in a recording studio in Nashville. And so kind of go check in on those artists and spend some time with them. And, you know, so, yeah, but I am going to tour Allegiance Stadium, the new Raider Stadium.

I'm going to buy a ticket and go, you know, walk around the locker room in the field and stuff. Can you? Is anyone can. You just buy a ticket online, yeah. That's sick. I never knew that. I saw the L.A. one recently. Did you know

it's called SoFi Stadium And Nita Strauss Who is a dear friend And a client is The guitar player for the Los Angeles Rams And she's like part of the show And they have her up on a pedestal Shredding away

And so she They had a Rams practice Where they unveiled the stadium for the fans And she invited us So we had a great time And I got to see this place It was a palace Just incredible

I mean I don't know how much Was it too billion dollars to build the building or something but it was just it's insane it's like indoor outdoor and just beautiful beautiful facility so i love uh sports stadiums and checking it you're a baseball guy right i i'm a fan of the angels right yeah got it a little oc yeah but i do want to go to the new ram spot because i mean those pictures look incredible it's just absolutely insane so uh you know the that's not why i'm going to vace but i'm definitely going to do it when i'm really

for in Vegas. I want to go to something called a Mega Mart, which is this super trippy thing by a company called Meow Wolf that has a weird psychedelic fun house in New Mexico and they built this thing in Vegas that just opened up. So, you know, a little

tourist stuff, a little fun stuff and a lot of clients and maybe a little sitting by the pool and a little bit of vacation with the wife and kid. Yeah, you got to spend time with everything that you need to do that you want Do you find that you really need to make time for the people that matter to you?

Of course. You really got to really make. Chris, one of my worst qualities was I didn't know how to say no, and I always was all in on everything all the time and overbooked, right? And so one of the things about the pandemic was so great was, oh, hey, it's this dude's birthday. I got to go get drinks. Oh, this person's in from out of town.

Hey, I got to go catch this band. I don't really care about it. That's first to four at some place. all gone, just going, done. Pro-ton excuse, up COVID, can't go. Everything's closed, right? And then I realized, I didn't want to be there in the first place. Look at all this extra time I have.

Look at how much ass I can kick at work for my real clients that are really important and how much extra time I have for my wife and my kid. And so then I started saying, I don't think, I think I'm fundamentally different now. I'm definitely not going to be at the opening of every door. I'm definitely not going to, you know, and maybe it's my age and maybe it's my status in the industry and maybe it's just I learned I got to A, B, and see that life is better. You know, like, think about how busy life can get. Sometimes you're like, can we just pause shit for a year and just chill out and reset, you know?

Like, oh, that's what I think happened. And now on the other side, I'm never going back, no way, no way, you know. What I'm not going to do, and especially is I look at my calendar this fall, and I see all the different obligations. I mean, literally, I'm like triple-booked. Oh, I got to be here and then I got to be there and then I'm da-da-da-da-da, right? Like, I was looking at, you'll appreciate some of these bands because they're from the era that I know you like. But like I'm looking at September, first weekend or second weekend in September,

I helped and I'm part of the team that's bringing back Mudvane, right? And Mudvane is playing at, I knew you would dig that, right? I can't fucking wait. And so Bud Vane's performing their first show. at the Incarceration Festival, which is some weird festival in Ohio. I think Danny Wimmer's involved now. It's like at the old Ohio penitentiary, I think,

which is Shawshank, right? Shawshank Redemption. But, you know, wherever they were playing, whether it was a shopping mall, a parking lot, or the Ohio State Penitentiary, I'm going to be there because it's Mudvane's first gig back, right? And these are my boys, and I'm all in, and I'm part of the team.

So I got to go to that. right and it's in the middle of Ohio and I'm not quite sure but then I realized oh shit my boys and maybe I'm confusing this festival with a different one but I don't think so I was like my boys in Fire from the Gods are opening up for corn and they're playing with stained and you know yeah I think it's the same weekend maybe it's the other festival and then I was like well so if I go to the festival but I leave this day and I fly back and I get here at this time I can race over to see Fire from the Gods opening up for corn. And then I was like, oh, shit, the Raiders are opening their new stadium on Monday night

football that weekend against the Ravens. Of course, I have to be at that game. So I'm like, well, if I fly to Ohio and then I fly back to here and run down to OC and see that show and then get back and then take the last plane out and get over to the Raider game and do that. And then I can fly back the first flight out to be back from my class that I have to teach here on Tuesday morning. Maybe I'll kill myself after all that's over.

But the point being is it's going to get busy. It's going to get fucking busy relative to the way it's been. And so I'm trying to make sure that from here on out I'm not really, I'm never seeking something. I'm not trying to find something to do. Hey, guys, what are we going to do tonight? Let's go find a party. Let's not like that. I'll just go to the shit I need to go to that naturally flows from my work.

my life. Good. And other than that, you know, fuck it. Right? Because, uh,

so that's how you got to, when you, you find stuff, you find time for the things that are important to you, I think by cutting out the time, uh, that is unnecessary with the things that aren't so important. Right.

Yeah. And, uh, and, and, uh, my wife and kid and my dog everywhere that I possibly can. That's great.

You're lucky. They're not. sitting right outside right now right yeah and uh you know laura uh adores you too so you know she knows i'm here and she says hello but the uh um yeah i just i have a really great i can work from anywhere uh and i have uh we just go mobile and we just they just come with me for the most part which is pretty cool that's awesome yeah it's so in a way like you're you're still learning yes you're still learning how to us which is scary you know for for guy like me and like oh man like just still

there's still things to learn I've had to balance your obsession with your personal life I find that's so fucking hard man yeah well you know you got for you you got the wife and family to me I got I got the girlfriend

you know so and then and then when you're with them you got to like okay I'm with them I'm not like doing this yeah like it's like shut up stop stop do it luckily my wife uh likes the heavy music

Right. That's awesome. She's more into heavier shit than I am. And also she gets it. And we're in all of this together. But you're absolutely right, man. And I think if you're not continuing to adjust and learn and become a better version of yourself, that's probably when you're done in life.

I think we're going to be evolving, changing, growing, adapting until our dying day. Absolutely. And I do think that life is a giant mixing board, right? A little bit more bass, a little bit less trouble, a little bit of this. Let's try that. And I'm constantly, you know, you ever watch those DJs at like an EDM DJ, the guy that's up on the pedestal and the music's pumping and the guy's always kind of turning a knob or something? I feel like I'm always just in a little something trying to get it right. And I don't know.

Hopefully keep doing that forever. Yeah. I don't see that as a weakness. I see that as a strength. It is. It is. And hearing you see that is very inspiring because, oh, that's how you stay in the game. I think so.

You're constantly learning. You're constantly evolving. I think what people maybe don't like hearing. Like, that's what you got to do. Like, you got to just constantly be learning, constantly evolving, constantly trying new shit, new things. That's how you learn. You ever go, like, we talked, I mentioned the Rainbow Bar and Grove, but you go there. And, like, there was an era where you would go there and you'd say,

see a lot of these cats, man, that were from a rocker era that kind of maybe was starting to pass them by. Yeah. And, you know, I don't want to be that. I mean, I teach young people, and I'm always trying to listen to new music and what came out today. And I love, like some people, you love baseball, I love the game of the music business. And I love looking at, you know, Ryan Downey's email with all the statistics. And I love... You know, consuming the analytics and how did this one stream and what's watch, you know, how this band rolled out their album and how is this working for them and what, you know, it's fun. And it's fun. I think if I wasn't getting paid and I wasn't doing it, I'd still be paying attention to all that shit. Yeah. And that's one thing, one important thing you're always doing. You're still doing it is you're always talking about new bands and hyping up new artists.

Yes. I remember like medium, you know, you would do it with. me and with many new people, this scarso, this new band, and like, we're friends for a few years, and, like, you introduced me to, like, newer bands, and you were, like, talk about it. I'm like, you're like, you were always in it. Yeah. Like, you know. Yeah, it's fun. The discovery and the development of new talent is super fun.

I will say, at this stage of my life, it's incredibly draining. Like, the concept of starting from scratch. Imagine, think about how long it's taking you to get, right? Imagine taking a new project on as starting it today, right? Although it's easier in some ways because you can put out music yourself and you can directly, how do I say, connect and engage with fans on social media and through like a distribution deal or something. You don't even need a gatekeeper to say yes, right? And frankly, a lot of people are very good to me and a lot of our mutual friends will take my developing projects and put them on Sirius XM Octane or put them on the right playlist on Spotify or Apple. or and that can help too.

But, you know, for the most part, I tell these artists, they need to build something that someone gives you shit about before. It's, you know, I grew up and maybe you're a lot younger, but maybe you grew up this way too, thinking that you were supposed to get discovered and get signed and then it would all happen, right? Yeah. And now I think it's that, you know,

those industry things can throw gasoline on the fire, but you got to get something started. You got to create something. that somebody gives a shit about. And it's really easy to get it out there and give it to see. I mean, think about this, right? I have probably, I have no idea what your social media following is, but I assume it's pretty good, right?

And I don't, I have a pretty small one, but what I have are people that are in the industry. So I have a few thousand people on my Instagram, right? But those people on my Instagram, I don't know, 50 to 60 percent of it are like agents and managers and band people and stuff like that. So let's say I have a thousand or a couple thousand people that are in this universe of what we do, right, that are following me on Instagram.

If I'd share a 15-second clip of a band or a statistic, hey, this band achieved this chart position or they did this, I could put that up on my Instagram. Remember the old days you're trying to showcase and you go, hey, can you make sure you get a few people out to see me play live, right? And if I got 100 people to come see you with the whiskey that were important, that were major people in the industry, you'd go, oh, shit, that's pretty awesome. That's pretty rad.

Well, I might not be able to get 100 people to come see you, but I could share 15 seconds of one of your songs on a photo. And I can see down on my Instagram story, I can say, well, this motherfucker, now they heard it. Now they know what it is, right? Wow. And so in that sense, it's easy to get that stuff out and get that thing started. You know what I mean? Yeah.

And if it's rad, people are into it. If it's, you know, kind of boring, then, you know, it doesn't matter how many people see it, right? That's very true. Not to put you in a hot seat, but then what's, I mean, you've seen the industry go up and down, up and down on all ways around. What's your current opinion on record labels? Oh, my current opinion on record labels is they can be absolutely fantastic for the right. It's kind of like if there's a spectrum of where you're at and your. career, there's kind of a window where a record label is incredibly effective, right?

So if you're a, and I think the record label is effective, most effective, when you're really going for it at the peak of your career and you're trying to achieve radio airplay, you're trying to do massive big budget things, you're trying to unlock the most high profile, top list stuff, that's where a record label can be incredibly effective. until the point when somebody gives a shit if you don't really have a fan base or you don't really have a business I advise most people at this time

don't seek out a record label I don't I hate shopping a band right I hate it and some of people I'm sure there's somebody watching this that I'll chuckle I hate it so much I'll like fight with you about it right because I don't want to tap everyone on the shoulder

and go hey what do you think you know like you know what let's just be Let's just exist. And if it's cool, like I said, they're going to see it. I'll share it on my socials. You share it on your social. People are going to see it.

And then they go, what's up with this? What's going on? Hey, you want to deal? And they'll find you at the right time. It's so funny. But the universe or the industry knows when it's time that they can help. So if you got a band that has nothing going on and doesn't have a fan base and doesn't really have their sound together, going out and doing a record deal is going to be a

terrible idea. You know why? Because you don't even know who you are. It's like getting married before you know what you want out of life, right? And you're going to also, it's like selling stock in your company when your company is nothing. If you and I just had an idea right now, hey, let's start a Chinese restaurant, right? Yeah. Okay, great. Let's Chinese food. I love that. And we'll call it Garza's Chinese restaurant, right? And it'll be rad and I'll put in money. And we have this, right? Now, let's say Mike Gitter comes through the door. And Mike, you want to invest in our Chinese restaurant, and he's going to go, well, what do you need? Well, we need

100 grand. If Mike was going to give us 100 grand for our Chinese, what the hell is he investing in? We don't even have anything going on. There's no profits. There's no sales. There's no customers. Right. So if he is going to invest, he's going to demand a big piece of the pie, right? He's going to want a big chunk because

that money is a big important thing of what you have going on. Yeah. If if we wait and we build, and you take that investment at this time, right? You're going to give up a huge chunk of the company if anybody will even give you any money at all. Yeah. But if we waited until we were the hottest restaurant

in town and people are popping out the door, then I think you get a better deal for yourself. That same money coming in would be worth more and you'd give less. So if you think about that with a record deal, if you've got nobody and you don't really have a fan base, you're not making any money and you're not streaming or you're not selling, right? And then you try to go out. and get a manager or an agent or most importantly a record deal or a publishing deal, what are you going to get? They're going to want to take a lot from you in exchange for not very much. And why could you blame them because you're not worth anything, right?

It's a sales transaction. Do you want to sell your stock when it's low or do you want to sell it when it's hot? If you wait, and the reason I think you should wait, it's not that hard to get your message out there. It's not that hard for people to find out if they like you, and it's not that hard to adjust and build something that someone does care about. And at that point, once they do, you're going to get a better deal. And if you can't get it to that point anyway,

I think you maybe want to think about what you're doing. Because, Chris, if you and I right now, we picked up these instruments and we made a song, and it was dope, and you shared it on your socials, and it was dope, and you were like, Eric German and I rocked out, in a suicide silence HQ and we made this right and everybody thought it was amazing it wouldn't be that hard to get people

I'm sure Jose would throw it on the radio or like right but if but if it wasn't that amazing isn't that cute that's called the lawyer thinks he can play guitar right and like they go that's nice and maybe your mom would tell us it was cute

but at the end of the day no one gives a shit right think about that with the bands like until someone cares, uh, uh, I don't think you should,

you should sign to a record deal. Now, let me, I can hear, by the way, you hear that. Yeah. What is that?

I think that's a, a motorcycle. I live, I live up by a fire station. And sometimes you'll hear, there'll be a fucking chaos outside. Right. That's so cool.

So, uh, um, the, uh, so, but at some point there could be, uh,

you know, now, now you've got something cool going on. Right? how a record company can really sink their teeth in. Because if you wait, if you don't really have anything going on, what are they going to do anyway? They're going to try to get you on a playlist or the radio.

Maybe no one even really cares. You don't have your sound together. Right? Okay. But if you've got something popping off, now you can go to the experts, and these people have the relationships at radio, and they have the playlisting,

and they can optimize your digital rollout and the marketing experts, right? and you're basically doing a deal with them to help bring that to bear. So once you get to the point where it's big enough that you can demand or command, I think is a better word, a real deal that's significant enough that you would expect people to really invest and work hard and give their A team to it, right? Yeah. At that point, it can be great to have a record company behind because they can take it to a whole other level.

And some of those pros can get you on the rate. can get you on the major tours, can get you plugged into the Matrix in a way that, you know, I guess if a record company is the point of a record company is to plug you into the matrix, if they're not going to be able to get you plugged in because you're not ready yet, don't do the deal yet. But if you're ready, then a record company could be great. Now, let's say on the flip side, though, if your band is kind of shot and it's basically you're no longer marketing yourself to achieve new fans

and you're really, now you're kind of coasting on the past and it's really all downhill from here, but you're trying to squeeze everything out of the situation that you can. You probably want to get out of your record deal, right? Because at that point, they're taking stuff, but there's really not much that that machine is going to do. Now you're starting to get the doors of closing. People don't care as much anymore.

And so at that point, it's just super serving the fans that you have, right? And there, you might as well keep the lion's share of the money, right? And do that stuff yourself. And, you know, that's kind of a general perspective. But the key thing I want most people to understand is how empowered we all are to create new projects. You could create a podcast. Did you have to ask anybody if you wanted to do this podcast? No.

Did you have to hope that someone thought you were good enough to sign you? Like you say you wanted to be Jimmy Fallon or something, right? You'd have audition for NBC and they would choose. No, you just decide to do it, right? Yeah. And you put it up. And now, you know, you've got subscribers to your YouTube channel. And I bet you even get a couple checks once in a while, right?

And, like, you're growing this thing and building this thing and getting it to something that's cool. You just did it, right? Do that with a band. Yeah. Right? Think about that. If you were trying to say, I only want to do a podcast if I can get signed by the biggest podcast network to, you know, compete with Joe Rogan or whatever. never, right?

It'll never happen. Well, I guess it's possible. It could happen, but if you just said, I'm just going to do it. And I'm just going to grow it to however I can. And then at some point, this thing may grow. And it may be to the point where some company comes and wants to give you money or ask you to do something. And at that point, you know, it'll happen when you're ready. It's so funny, dude.

When you have one label trying to sign a band, there's usually five. You know what I mean? It's very rarely only one. Really? Everyone knows when it's time. It's like either everybody passes or everybody wants it usually. It's pretty rare, right? You know, nobody wants another baby band to deal with, you know.

But I will tell you, I've had some great success. I always tout these with a couple new artists. On the one hand, like on a metal side, on a label side, I'm really stoked on Alluvial, which is West Hauke, that is his new band is incredible. It's really, really cool.

It's technical death metal and it's just freaking awesome. Monty Connor, nuclear blasts. John Berklin turned me onto it. It's great stuff, right? I mean, he's west.

I mean, he's fucking sick. And I guess, I don't know if that's really new for people, but I think it's new in terms of, with vocals and growing and all of that stuff.

Cool. But on a self-release type level, I'm really excited about this band called Solence from Sweden. which are the guys they've never played a show here in the U.S. to this point. They have been self-releasing music. And I believe they have like 1.2 million monthly listeners on Spotify right now.

That's a lot. And they have, you know, their songs are, you know, they got a couple songs that are around the 10 million play thing. And they have, you know, 100,000 subscribers on YouTube. And they're doing it all on their own. And they were offered a whole bunch of record deals from some awesome people, some great partners, people that I really, really respect last summer.

And they thought about it and they were going to do a deal. And they said, why don't we just self-release another deal, another record before we do a record deal? Because you keep your money. You get 100% or minus a distribution fee. You keep the money. And you can control when you put it out and how you put it out and do it the way you want. And then when you own those masters,

I've seen in the last couple years the true value of what it means to own copyrights and what you can sell those copyrights for, whether it's on the publishing side or on the master side. You sell them for multiples that are really exciting figures that are liquidation events that really get people rich. I mean, there are people in the music industry getting rich because they're selling the publishing, they're selling their masters. And if you can grow your catalog that you own up to a certain point, that's really, really freaking exciting. So, you know, I think at some point, you can't go, you hit a glass ceiling and you can't really grow something much beyond a level on your own. And you need that investment capital and you need that expertise and you need those gatekeepers to come on board. But until the time that they would probably want the band, I'm not going to even bother. I'm definitely not going to sit here and blow up somebody at some label trying to get them interested in some band.

that doesn't really have any numbers online, you know? I know, yeah. That's what I think. That's it. I mean, you hit all, like, all scenarios, young band, older band, shot band, independent big band. Those are great pointers. Yeah, but what you need to do, the hard part is understanding where you're really at. And what's the reality of where you're at?

Because, you know, if you try to pretend, I think so much in this business, there's so many guys, especially when they're not quite where they want to be or they're a little past their prime, they're fighting that reality, right? And they're constantly trying to pretend like they're more than what they are or in a better place than they are, and they can't get real about where they're at.

And I think if you can get real about where you're at, you can make smart business decisions about where you want to be and how you're going to get there. Totally. So I think that's the biggest challenge is recognizing and having patience and knowing that, you know, you're going to grow this thing

and it's going to work. You need to give a time. You need to put in the work. How many years have you been at your band? Over 20. I mean, that's a lot. That's a lot, right? You imagine all the trials and tribulations that happened.

I mean, some of tragedy, obviously great success, super, tons of fun. I was looking at your Spotify profile on the way getting ready to come over here. And, of course, you only live once is the big song now on streaming. and that video will always be one of the greatest heavy metal videos

I've ever seen in my entire life that's to me, right? But like, how long ago was that now? Eight, nine years? Ten years? That record just turned 10 years old like last week or something. Right.

Crazy. So, I mean, it just flies by and can you imagine going back and doing it all again and all the work that goes into that, I mean, would you do it again? Yeah.

You probably are. Someday you're going to have another band. What do you think about that? Maybe, yeah. I'm kind of treating this as a band. Yeah. Right? See?

So you're right. You're right. You're right. You're building. Dude, this carpet, by the way, I don't know if it shows up on the screen, but this is insane. I love this color. Yeah. Yeah, my girlfriend picked out this carpet.

I was like, oh, no. I'm a big purple fan, right? Oh, yeah? Oh, cool. Chris has the purple on the thing. Got the purple in the, podcast logo, the purple rug, the purple lighting. There's something about purple that sets a certain mood?

Yeah, it's regal. It's kinglike. Oh, shit. I guess you're what you want. You want more coffee? Sure. Cool. I know you want more coffee. Yeah, it's like, you know how you have certain feelings with like blue or like pink or red or orange, you know, etc. The something about purple, I think depending on the person, it could kind of hit them either way. I kind of like that. Yeah, well, you got it in your hair. I know.

And when did you start coloring your hair, man? I fucking forgot. A couple years ago, right? I mean, we were just saying how yours fly by. Shit, it's been about three years now. So weird. That's now, that's your trademark. I guess so, yeah.

It's just kind of stuck. Yeah. First it was like a joke, and then it's kind of like, oh, shit, I kind of like it. It looks cool. Thanks, man. Because you come from, I mean, I know this, and I'm sure your fans know this, but, like, you're a new metal fan, right? I'm a 90s new metal kid until I die.

Right, right. And so in a new metal era, unlike maybe some other kinds of metal or whatever, it was always cool to be a little different, a little wild, a little extreme, a little alternative, right? Yeah. That's what new metal to me kind of was supposed to be when it was corn and maybe mudvain. It was like an alt metal, right? It was kind of like a little off instead of like there's the other side of new metal, which is like bro metal, right? Oh, yeah. It can be both, right?

Yeah, it's where you have like the two sides of people that listen to that style of music. You have like, you know, like, new metal kids and you have like the bros that listen to the same. It was like a weird, like a weird thing. So what do you think of the limp biscuit? I love them. Yeah, right? If they played right now, I'd be right up front. I would be like, yeah.

You know, but there was a time where I was like, limp biscuit, right? But now when they're at a festival or something, you hear like break things or break stuff or whatever. I mean, you know it's on. It's on. So, you know, like, what's the best new metal band to you? Corn. Is that true question? Corn, my second favorite band's always been Slip-Not.

Yeah, right. Just the fucking aggressive intensity. It's Slip-Nout of a new metal band? I guess they are. I probably just pissed him off. I probably just... Oh, fuck. They're never going to be pissed by a guy at your stature saying that that's one of their favorite bands of all time.

It is from my favorite bands. Like, yeah. What I realized, artists and bands kind of not not I don't know the right word not deny but they don't really talk about the word that people latch onto their band

like let's new metal you know corners really they've said a number of times done on new metal band but for me I would die by that word is Metallica think there are a thrash metal band probably not right why not I don't slayer what is slayer thrash yeah thrashy not but bordering on death right yeah did you ever go down the death metal rabbit oil or what? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. What's the roots of death metal? Possessed or death or obituary,

morbid angel. Morbent angel, shout out. Cannibal corpse. Of course, cannibal corpse. So I'm really excited that I'm just did a record for a current band that has a feature for George Corpse Grinder Fisher. Nice. It will be revealed shortly. That's awesome. It's really fun to see that. That's awesome. But some of those bands, probably that were death metal bands don't want to be called death metal bands. And, you know, metalcore bands probably don't want to be called metalcore. It's a weird thing, yeah. It's like the bands don't want to be called it, but the fans that listen to it like fucking love those words attached to those bands.

Of course. Because this is what I was talking about. Think about that spectrum of music. So you start out, you're building that fan base, and you get a bunch of people who are into what you're doing, right? Then you try to pour, you take it to another level, and it maybe it becomes more rock or it becomes more octane or whatever it is. And you go for that radio single. And you grow, right? You try to grow the fan base.

The trick is to take the fan base on the ride with you, not leave them behind and trade them for somebody else, right? Whenever a band's trading for somebody else, it kind of feels shitty, right? But when they take you with them, they get to this point where, okay, it's rapid. but these original people that love you for what you do, they wanted to hear a certain kind of sound, right? And so when you go back to that or you can come return to that, the fans are really always, you know, that's the circle of life, right? You go back to your roots.

Like every band gets an opportunity to do that. Yeah. And I think that, you know, I think that's what it is. And we're all looking for something more. We're looking for that growth. You talked about earlier, how often are you continuing to adjust or adapt or evolve? I think creative people are, it's the same thing. I mean, look, ACDC made the same record over and over.

Slayer pretty much kind of made the same record over and over, right? Suicide Silence did not make the same record over and over. No. You know, but yet you found a need to, you were true to yourself. You did what you felt, what you wanted to do. I remember seeing rock on the range I don't remember when this was but during that album cycle

and standing side stage and watching you beat the shit out of your wrist like Pete Townsend and the who right and breaking guitars and like the whole deal and it just felt so real and so rad and so true I was so proud of you guys that you were just going for it in experimental way It was kind of the musical equivalent of saying, fuck it, I'm dying my hair purple.

Right. And, you know, but then there came a time where it felt right to go back to the heavy shit, right? Yeah. And so maybe that's what life is, man. It's trying different things and growing and then adapting. Like I said, constantly tweaking those knobs on the mixing board. Right?

I think all bands go through that. And I get a great pleasure of being on the inside and listening to these people often confide about what they want to do and what they think they need to do and where they grow and helping to coach and advise and kind of watch that process. And now over the course of many, many years

and so I have experience in a sense that I kind of see the patterns, right? And I see, okay, this band's at this place and maybe that's what they need to do next. Yeah. What are some patterns that you've seen? Of, you know, I think,

first of all, I see that bands are very difficult to keep together on a personnel basis, right? Yeah. Those relationships are incredibly difficult to sustain. I think that it's hard to stay relevant. It's hard to keep in the game. I think that everybody wants more.

I think every single band is dreaming to be arena headliners, right? Of course. But very few are. Yeah. So somewhere along the way, they're going to fuck it up. Or it's just not going to be capable, right? Like I like to play pickup basketball, but I can't dunk a basketball. And no matter how many times, no matter how hard I try if I go out there every single day and work at it, I'm not dunking a basketball.

I just can't, right? And you could scream at me. Eric, dunk that fucking basketball. And I'd be like, I can't, right? And some bands, honestly, are just not good enough, or they're not interesting enough, or they're a very limited appeal, right? Yeah. And that's hard to watch, but that's a pattern that, you know, watching people discover that they've hit that ceiling is tough. And at the same time, watching people quest for it and try to achieve that bigger dream is also.

So I see a pattern of kind of a timeline, a life cycle of a band. you know, play out. But then, then again, you have, your band's been around for over 20 years, dude. 20. And so have, think of all the bands. What were the peers that you started with? What were the other bands that you kind of see as your contemporaries

when you first started out? You got corn effects. Yeah. Still around. They're still around. White Chapel, so around. Shout out. White Chapel, by the way, they expanded the hell out of their sound, right?

Yeah, that's great. They went for, they went for it. I'm proud of them. It's great. Job for a Cowboy was like the, we talked about like day one here. The MySpace bands, right? Yeah, I remember like, I was always gone,

I was always gone on their MySpace. I've seen their numbers. Like, why? Why they can even bigger than us? Fuck them. And Job for a Cowboy went to Metal Blade, right? Yes. And you went to Century Media.

Yeah. And Winds of Plague was Century Media. Yes. They were like the next wave, right? Yeah. So you broke, what other bands came out of that sort of core MySpace scene? Who else?

Fuck. I mean, maybe more like recent, like you got like dialed his murder, killing it, doing a great job. But as far as that time period, it was pretty much like the handful of bands. So you broke on MySpace, right? Oh yeah, MySpace was the top one. So now were you the guy? Who was the big MySpace guy? Was that you?

I was on MySpace a lot. Was it Jerry? Jerry was like on the band MySpace. He was, he was the genius and 100% like the heart and soul pushing all that shit forward. Like he was, that was all him. Right. And so, you know, but MySpace became uncool at some point. Now, now you look back on it, it's kind of cool. It's kind of retro. So you talk about patterns, right?

Things start in a place where almost inevitably it's weird. Anything that's interesting in the end starts out weird, right? It's different, right? Yeah. I remember the first time I saw corn. I went to a show in Providence, Rhode Island. I was in law school in Boston. This must have been somewhere between 94 and 97. Whoa, yeah. And I drove with Lara to go see the show in Boston.

It was Megadeth was the headliner. Oh, you saw that tour? And the reason why I wanted to go in part was I also liked this band called Flotsam and Jetsam that was on the bill. It was Flotsam and Jetsam corn. It was Megadeth, Fotsam and Jetsam and Corn. But what happened was, and this is pre-Internet. So the information is hard to, right? they flipped.

Corn got too big and they played after Flotsam and Jetsam and I thought it was the other way around. So I walk into this and I was like mad at corn. I was like, who the hell of these guys? I was a thrash of them. They're wearing Adidas sweatsuits. Oh yeah.

Like this is not your granddaddy's metal fair. And I walk into the arena and I see I missed Flotsam and Jetsam because they reversed the bill and I was mad mad about it. And of course, then I saw just this incredible show and then like, you know, I mean, how could you not?

Right? And I think that, so it starts out as weird. You're like, what is this thing? This is not what I thought it was. And then it becomes cool. And then it becomes the hottest thing around. Yeah. And then inevitably, because that's the way things are,

it's not so cool anymore. It's not so hot anymore. And if you can weather the storm, If you can hang in there during those years when it's not so cool anymore and survive where most people are going to go down. Most people are going to break up or stop doing it or shift gears or whatever. But if you can hang in there and become – it's just stay the course pretty soon, not too long even. You become retro or not retro, classic or revered or legendary or because people start to – let's – say once something becomes popular, there's a shit ton of people doing it, right? So first you're

a leader, then you're surrounded by everyone doing the same thing and it becomes so bloated. Yeah. Everyone says, fuck this. And you get the C tier and the D tier. Think about hair metal, true, right? Hair metal was, you know, Montecru and rat or whatever and stuff like that was kind of cool, right? But then it was, I don't know, you got down, I don't want to call people, but you get down to the level of like all these bloated major label pop bands with hairspr, and spandex and they're really not that good, right? And then, and so then it becomes ridiculous, so everyone says, fuck it.

And then grunge comes, and you get, you know, Nirvana and Allison Chan's the sound card, but then you get all the other kind of D-tier, B-tier, grunge, and then everything gets bloated, people say, fuck that. And this happens over in a new metal comes, right? And it becomes, holy shit, here's corn, here's system of a down, here's deaf tones, whatever, and then you get, oh, yeah, there's this one, right?

And that one. And oh shit, now this is just a joke, right? That just happens over and over and over. But if you hang in there and you don't go away because all the bullshit, when the trend shifts away and it's not cool what you're doing anymore, that's where you separate the wheat from the chaff, right? And that's where you see, oh, shit, these are the real motherfuckers and you stay the course. eventually people will be like, well, I did like that. And this is the best example of that. And I'm glad this still exists because I love that.

And it takes me back to this time and youth of my memories. And I want more of that. Chris, I was looking at Iron Maiden, right? Iron Maiden dropped a song the other day. Did they? No. Right? Oh, wow.

Iron Maiden, one of my favorite bands of all time, I was thinking about bands like this. They don't have, you know, classic heavy metal was not seen as something that does very well with streaming. It's more of like a physical product thing, right? And you would say, well, you know, classic heavy metal is not cool anymore. But then it was, well, you know, but those fans still buy CDs, right? You know, so. But then, but they don't stream. Well, I looked at the Iron Maiden song, which I don't have my phone right here, but the, I looked at it today.

and it might have come out last week. It's got 1.6 million streams on Spotify already. Oh, wow. And in like of just a handful of days, and I'm like, oh, shit, you know? Right? So there was a time where Iron Maiden was a hot commercial property. There was a time when they couldn't get arrested

on the Billboard 200 or whatever. And now they've been around for so long. Now they're classic. They're legends. They're like, oh, my gosh, people are going to rush to the store. bet you when that record comes out, it'll be like, you know, certainly top 10, maybe it's number one on Billboard, right? And there'll be a week where Iron Maiden is the music, you know, right up with the pop stuff. Because people, you know, there are people want that. And there's

only one Iron Maiden, you know, what I mean? That's true. Way back when there was a shit ton of bands that were trying to be like that, you know? Yeah. It's crazy how long that process takes of things to come back around. So you're at 20 years, right? Like, People, there's definitely people that put you guys on a pedestal. Like, there's definitely people. And I know, you know, from going through, you know, having hung out with Mitch and having been around the band during those years, I also know the other bands that came up during that period.

I know Danny Worsnop would have laid down in front of a truck for Mitch, right? And like those bands, asking Alexandria and all those bands that were coming up at that time, they thought you guys were the shit and I know that they would have I think today just suicide silence is legendary and if you don't get that

you don't know that I don't know what's wrong with you man like I don't know anybody who is aware of your band there are people that don't know suicide silence because they don't like heavy music at that point but people who do I mean respect man

it's like you know what I mean And so I think you're about to embark if you play it right on that era where that can really sustain you for the rest of your days. I grew up watching hair metal and thrash metal and all that stuff and then when Nirvana kind of killed metal dead and headbanger's ball went off the air

and grunge was like the thing, I started noticing in the 90s where you had like underground death metal and European metal but nothing at all in the mainstream, right? Yeah. I, or you maybe had new metal at the end of the 90s and grunge at the beginning, right?

But you didn't have like guitar solos and classic like heavy metal. Yeah. I noticed that the bands that had been, at least if you had had a couple videos on MTV or something, if you had gotten in through the door before the bottom fell out, you could sustain and you could still have careers and people still paid attention to overkill

and Slayer and Testament and, you know, bands like that, right? But new bands would have a hard time getting to that level, but you could sustain it. And I always say if you have three hits, you can play county fairs and festivals and casinos for the rest of your days, right? Probably three hits is probably what it takes to be able to at least play some shitty cruise

or some weird, like, Indian casino or something, right, for the rest of your days. Free cruise, amen. If you have a three... What do you think of those metal cruises, by the way? You know what? I've always wanted to go on one. You haven't done it?

No, I've played a one. I've been on one. So I did... One of the things I did right before the pandemic, I had never gone on one of these cruises because I thought it was kind of like, oh shit, you're trapped in a festival for like a week. You know what I mean?

Like, that's kind of a lot, right? Yeah. And unless you're just drinking the whole time or whatever, maybe it's too much, right? Yeah. So, but I have... I had seven bands that I work with play on something called Shiprocked in February 2020. And it was leaving from New Orleans.

And I had never been to New Orleans. And I was like, all right, I got to do this. And I asked the wife on almost like a date, you want to go on Shiprocked and go to New Orleans and go Bourbon Street and get a nice dinner. And they can go on this cruise and see all my bands. And oh, my God, I had the best time, dude. And I was totally like, kind of like, I don't want to be around all these people. It was amazing. It was like a floating hotel with the most enthusiastic fan, super fans from all over the country that are like completely obsessed with the bands and they treat them like royalty.

And it was like shows like, you know, and you can get away from it and go eat and go do other things or go to the gym or whatever. It was like, it was like, what if we all slept together in the same hotel with all sorts of activities going to beautiful locations and watched all sorts of awesome fucking bands all day long? and you could go whenever you wanted and there was always like some band playing. It was awesome. And it was like going on vacation with 150 of my favorite people. If you ever get a chance to do one of those things,

it's definitely pretty cool. It's weird. You know? The fans and the bands are like all walking around together and stuff. And people are in the pool while you're like playing. Yeah. But it was really fun.

And of course, COVID hit. I got back from that trip at the beginning of February, and then COVID hit in March, and I was like, well, glad I took the trip. Glad I went on that one. Man, he went out with a bang.

That's a great show to go out on. Have you seen a show yet, Chris, since the pandemic sort of, quote-unquote, ended? Not like big shows. I mean, I went to like the bar around here, and there's like, they were already having shows,

but nothing massive yet. So I'm looking forward to a great, go out, seeing a sick fucking band play. Get a nice cold beer. Get a cold beer. Pay 15 bucks for a shot. I'm in, dude.

I can't wait. What are you going to see first? What do you think? Dude, there's so many shows. September is kind of like the month. That's what I mean. It's everybody's on tour. Cornestine, that's a must.

So that's what I mean. Fire from the Gods is one of my bands. That's opening that show. That would be sick show. Cornistan. You got a Lemon God and Hayprey just hopped on that show. I can only see Haypreed. Fuck.

That's awesome September. So those are your first ones? Winnie, you guys playing? We do a quick fly out in Florida in September, but we had the ginger run in October, December. It's too much long. Right. I haven't been trying to tour that long.

I don't know how long. I'm ready. I'm ready, dude. Well, see, and I think that, I think it's going to be fun. But I do think we have to be, or at least I have to be careful, to make sure that I don't want to go back to the way it was. You don't want the old habits to kind of creep in.

I don't want to hold habits. I don't want to be out all the time. I want to keep, I kind of, this is working for me. Like, I actually kicked ass during the pandemic and really put the pedal to the metal and focused on my craft. And I don't want that to end. I am burnt out. I was trying to get there before in telling you, like, I worked so hard during the pandemic. You know, a lot of people were drunk in their pool by 3 p.m. every day, right?

Yeah. I was, I have a head down. And I was just working, just straight hustling. And I had my best year ever. And everything is like this, right? And so for me, I want to keep that going. But I definitely, you talked about obsession. You talked to it.

I think I worked that hard a little bit out of fear and a little bit out of, I don't know what else to do with myself. Like my way of coping with how fucked up the world was was to just work my ass off on the music industry and just escape in that. But you can only work 16 hour days, seven days, week for a year and a half before you just like, okay, for mental health, I need to go to Vegas and go to the pool.

Yeah, yeah. Take a trip or something like that. Yeah. How do you do a burnout? I mean, I think that I think you got to turn it off. You got to have hobbies or do something that is completely irrelevant. Like I am obsessed with NFL football, particularly the Raiders, because, you know, in part, again, like

metal, there's a community. I know dudes that are into the Raiders or people that are super fans that I always connect and text about the games or go to the games with or have our rituals. And I do that with my brother, who is like one of my best friends. And it's just,

it's awesome in the community, but it's also it doesn't, I can't believe I'm saying this, it doesn't actually mean anything. You know, and it's kind of cool that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, that, it, that I can be that passionate about something that truly is fun.

Like, I see people get, you're a Democrat and you're a Republican, or you're vaccinated, and you're not. I'm like, you're a Chiefs fan and I'm a Raider fan. And it's fake, but it's fun. But it's fun. So us against them in a controlled, safe environment that really doesn't matter is fucking fun. Us against them, when it's real, that's not so cool. So avoiding burnout, finding outlets to put that passion. also a super nerd. I love like Star Wars and Marvel and Disney and I like I like just I like people that

like things I like liking things I like getting into shit that doesn't really mean anything knowing everything about it celebrating it enjoy I Jose said that on I was watching your podcast with Jose yeah and he's just a passionate guy man oh he is right like he loves shit that he loves and I work on this band Einstein Kills with Spencer Charnas yeah The dude loves harm. He was like so like, like he just loves him, knows everything about it. That's fun. Does it really matter?

You know, like who's the, who played the killer and the, you know, Halloween for it. No, but it kind of does to him and it's fun. So how do you avoid burnout? I think you've got to find shit that is really not a matter of life and death, but really soak it all in and immerse yourself in it. I guess that's called escapism, right? Yeah. Yeah.

find hobbies and find something else to do that you enjoy doing. I think so. I think so. And, you know, having good, healthy relationships and all that stuff can be good. The gym,

too. I mean, I'm not a muscled out steroid guy and not even in the best shape, but I go to the gym several times a week and it's a sanctuary, especially during the pandemic. It was a guy that I knew that had access to a gym that was closed, but only a few people could use it. And so I had a key code.

I had a, Spencer from Einstein kills was one of my neighbor, one of my friends. All these guys we would do, we would go in there and crank tunes and work out. And it was kind of like a sanctuary, a clubhouse and a way to, you know, I'm not going to the gym to look good in a bait-in suit. I'm going to the gym so that I can sweat and think and open up my lungs and kind of stretch and feel like, you know, in touch with physicality. And it's good for me, right?

So that's another way to deal with burnout too. Right? It's just like move your body, do some shit. You know what I mean? It's huge. Yeah. Yeah, Jim is huge. I mean, yeah, I mean, just you go for you.

Like, you just like, I need to move my body. I need to get my brain going. Strangely enough, I went to my parents' house on Sunday. They live in Dale Moore down in San Diego area. Oh, cool. And they have like a great pool. Like, by the way, no to everyone. Chris Garza's pool is immaculate.

It looks so dope. Like, it's just crystal clear water. Part of the reason I was tripping so much on your pool was that I went down there and my parents had the light on, like, the blue light at night. And I went for a swim on Sunday. And I hadn't been swimming in a long time. And it just felt amazing. And I went home, slept like a baby that night after, like, swimming.

And just, you know, soaking in the hot tub and just feeling that energy and stuff like that. So, you know, I think that stuff for me is good. Even when I feel sick or I feel down or I feel stressed, if I go, you know, even 30 minutes on a cardio machine and then a little stretching and a little weights or something like that, I feel better, you know? Yeah. I also love the other thing is my dog, dude.

Walk my dog, play with my dog, whatever. If you have a puppy and you spend time with that puppy and you don't feel great on the other side, I don't know what's wrong with you, you know. So that's it. Yes. Swimming and walking are underrated, man. Yeah.

So, so nice. So what do you think are the coolest new bands for you? What are this new bands I've been jamming? Unfortunately, during like the Pandi, I just been going backwards. Did you just call it to Pandy? Yeah. That's awesome. I've heard anybody say that.

I've been going late 50s, Dick Dale. Cool. I've been nerding out on Dick Dale. Cool. Because, you know, he's been called, like, the father of heavy metal. Yeah. The first guy was fucking tremolo picking. Surf guitar.

Yeah. Yeah, Dick Dale. That's cool that you're going old school like that. That's really great. Isn't that great, like, with Spotify and things like that? You can have every song ever in a pocket, right? There's no reason not to check out anything. It's so cool.

I would deep dive on, you know, like, remember the old days when you would have, let's say your favorite band came out with some weird live album or some B-Side. Are you really going to go plunk down 1999 and buy the CD or maybe? But like, but here, of course, you're going to check it out, right? Yeah, totally. So it's kind of cool. So my top two were Dickdale and

Spirit Box, I think. Ah, you're on a Spirit Box trip. You and Jose, right? Like, they're awesome. Is that band blowing up or what? I mean, and also, you got the blue hair, right? Yeah. The hair color thing. Spirit Box is

really neat, uh, combination. of kind of modern musicality and those kinds of tones combined with that female vocal, which is just ethereal at times. Yeah, it's very cool. I dig that a lot, too. I think that, see, how easy it is, when is the first time you ever heard Spirit Box?

Wow, yeah, I mean, I just kept hearing a name, so that I just went... What do you mean? Is it six months a year? Yeah, you're right. It's been... Yeah, I heard the name. name like exactly last year I was at like a bar with a friend and I was like you ever hear his band spirit box I'm like no then I kept hearing about it on like you know Instagram seeing pictures

I'm like you know what fuck I'm gonna go on Spotify if I play it I just let it go from top to bottom I was I forgot where it was see so it's quick it's cool it's easy when you're doing something that's rad and didn't she used to be in like I wrestled a bear once or something like that or some different maybe some kind of band maybe I got it wrong but something else right but when you got something that people want and the flavor is just right and you you get it out there. It's not that hard. It doesn't take that long.

That's considered like one of the bigger, hotter new bands now. And it didn't take that long, you know? No. And that's because when it clicks, it's easy to get it out to the masses. True. Are you guys,

what are you doing like TikTok and crap like that? Or where are you at with that kind of stuff? I wish did band get a TikTok, but unfortunately, I think our band name is banned from TikTok. Is it really? Dude, we've been going through some shit

that passed like six months and trying to get our social media straight because like the word you know, suicide is just been getting knocked down from like, you know, Facebook,

now Instagram being a shadow band weird, weird little stuff figuring out but TikTok's the top one it's like you cannot even have like the name. Wow. It's like TikTok's a big one.

You know, I remember being in New York after 9-11 and they had a concert for 9-11 and twisted system was the headliner. It was like the return of Twisted Sister.

Wow. It was at the Hammerstein Ballroom? I think like maybe was it nothing face or, but they were anthrax played, right? Oh, cool. And they came out on stage. And at the time, you might not notice, but there was like an anthrax scare. Like people were opening up envelopes and like powder was coming out, right? And there was a ton of pressure on them to change their name.

And they came out on stage with, I'm sure you could find this on Google. like each guy had one of the words in a white jumpsuit and said like we're not changing our name and I stuck with it and like I don't know like you can't change your name now yeah you can't

you just have to use different social media handles I guess something yeah we're trying to figure out some weird creative way to get on there that's that's really bizarre but I can imagine that TikTok can really work for a band like yours because what I've noticed works on TikTok is

drama like dramatic shift like if you have like the mood is one thing and then all of a sudden it kicks in like people love that you know so it'll be like a picture of a cat playing and then the next moment

it's like a blast beat you know it's like you know something it will make so much sense totally so I think that there's a lot of these different ways people can consume stuff one of the other interesting things I think that's happening right now

is you're seeing songs come out of nowhere and be popular from a long time there's a band called the Dirtyheads that's on Better Noise that has a song called Vacation. And it's, hey, I'm on vacation. And like, I think it's from several years ago,

but it exploded right now. I think bring me the horizon had a situation like that where they had a song from before that exploded. Of course, most famously, Fleetwood Mac had a guy with the cranberry juice or whatever, right? And like that song took off all because of this, right? So it's just really at this point, everything's available

and whatever you can get kids to gravitate to it's on right and everything's on the table and everyone can do it and you don't really need a record label you don't really need at the beginning to create something viral because try as you might

it's kind of hard to it just either works I know it's so fucking crazy speaking of songs blowing up plater how have you seen label numbers evolve because now they're probably because now they're probably slowly

you got to put in like streaming like streaming numbers right like you got to put it on this is like the percentage you get from the streaming like how how is that like evolved now? I think it depends on what kind of music but sort of that first week sales thing to me is just dead in the water

now of course everybody wants to sell physical product and if you're kind of a collector type band or an old school band or a metal band I'm sure lots of people are going to buy Iron Maiden. I want the artwork, and I'm sure people are going to buy, you know, I think I recently saw a Beartooth had like different variants of their album cover and they did very, very well on their first week.

But like in general, I'm not really hung up on first week sales. I'm looking at Longtail. I'm looking at a year to 18 months worth of streaming on a song, right? Wow. And you want it to consistently stream over time. I mean, it's beautiful. The thing about streaming is you're constantly getting paid. forever and if you can get a song that continues to be a soundtrack in people's lives you have

you were playing metallica master of puppets when i came in yeah when i was a kid the day that album came out i rode my bike to the record store i didn't have a turntable but they didn't have the cassettes in yet so i had to have it i couldn't wait so i bought the lp i still have it to this day wow the day it came out i rode home and i asked my dad who had a turntable in his office if i could listen to it and I taped that, right? And then when the cassette came out, I bought the cassette. And then when CDs came out, I bought the CD, and I probably broke it and bought it again. Of course.

But I've bought it maybe three times, right? My favorite album of all time, right? Yeah. Now, nowadays, Metallica probably hasn't gotten any money from me based on Master of Puppets in 20 years, right? But every single time I play one of the songs, there's a micro penny, right? So it's always going to continue. Check this out. I don't want to break the news, right?

But there's a band that was on Century Media that had a minor hit way back in 2009, 2010, right? Maybe 2010, 2011, 2012, somewhere in there. I don't know. I gave you a three-year window to figure it out. And they did well, but it was not like a big band. And I've learned recently that I think. They have gone gold. And I thought about it.

When you find out this band, like, you go, shit, they have a gold record? That's fucking dope, right? Because guess what? It never stopped streaming. And so, in theory, every record's going to go gold someday, and every record will go platinum.

It may take 150 or 300 years, but at some point, because look at the play counts on your songs. There are always one more every single day, right? Yeah, there was something. It's continuing to rise. So, you know, Pandora just announced a radio station called The Billionaires Club, where it's going to be only bands that have at least a billion streams or a billion players on.

And you've got, you know, I was proud to see one of the bands I work with called Five Finger Death Punch as part of that. But you see, you know, Metallica and Advantage in Corn and whatever, Slipknot or whatever. And the ones you think of, the headliners. It's basically the download headliners. You know what I mean? Yeah. And I think eventually, I guess everybody will get a billion streams, right? Like, unless no one gives a shit anymore, and they absolutely just forget about you and no one listens anymore.

Yeah. And in the old days, in the 80s, people would buy the CD and then that's it. And there's no – think about albums. Do you ever buy an album that you barely listen to? You listen to one or two songs, and you're like, this kind of sucks, and you toss to the side. I always bought a record I knew I was like I have to fucking

I mean you know Back back in a day You buy a couple duds Yeah And you're all You're younger So you had more access Because I didn't have

When I was a kid I wouldn't Sometimes I really couldn't hear it Unless somebody bought a copy Yeah How you're supposed to hear it Maybe you heard the single Yeah

On Headbanger's ball Or something like that So You know Those people got the same money As Metallica Master of Puppets When I bought the CD It cost the same

They got the money now I feel like there's a meritocracy like the ones that people stick with that become part of the fabric of your life that you listen to over time those are the ones that are really going to win out in the end and get all the riches

and the accolades and the you know I feel good every time I click on a Judas Priest song that I know those cats are getting another stream you know what I mean? Yeah yeah it's cool and you could always go back to it and it's weird like when you play it

you play the same song but that's another stream That's another click. It's another stream. Now, it might be just a tiny, tiny, tiny drop in the bucket. And it's... Yeah. And if there's more people like you, and usually if I like it, somebody else likes it, right?

I doubt there's very much that I'm the only one that likes it. What's the metal band that you like that nobody else seems to know, you know? Depends how... Depends how small we're talking. I love, like, you know, maybe some small, definal bands. Yeah. Like, man, these are gems. I wish more people knew about.

I mean, that created like, you know, like bands like Gus and stuff. But what was like a bigger one? Taproot. Taproot. Yes. Fuck. That's cool.

So, you know, but I bet you just people still listen to the taproot songs. The taproot's probably the kind of band that has some kind of single that actually, like if you look at monthly listener accounts on Spotify, you'll see that the bands that have big monthly. listener accounts, that could sometimes just be one song that people listen to over and over. That just means that in the last 28 days, somebody listened to one song on their profile. So if you are a one-hit wonder, you're going to have a bigger monthly listener count than

a smaller band that people listen to, you know, different songs, you know? It's true. So I think, though, I think that the point is longevity is more important than ever before. hanging in there and over time and knowing that you're going to continue to make money and you talk about labels versus distributors, you'll realize that when you self-release

and you own something yourself and if you're going to always get paid from that forever. And also bands on labels that have royalty deals once they recoup, they're going to get paid forever. You probably have albums from Century Media that are getting to the

point where, I mean, eventually they're all going to recoup and they're all going to pay your royalties and you'll start getting checks. I mean, to be transparent, I mean, the Central Media deal kind of... Wasn't that good? No, no, it gave us a big check a few times because, I mean, we've been recouped for years. Right. So everything that comes in, that's pure profit.

So you get, so which album do you get the most money from? All three, all three of the first ones. Those are... Because they're all combined on one account, right? Yeah, I mean, we did the three album deal with Central Media. They're all recouped. The first one, the second, they're all recouped. So any cleansing, the entire bleed, black crown,

anything that happens to the stream, YouTube, that's all profit. And guess what? That's not going to end tomorrow. That's not going to end next week. And that's not going to end next year. And 50 years from now, your kids or your heirs or your, you know, they'll still get checks. That's the life.

But if everybody had just bought the CD. Yeah. Maybe not so much. Weird. I never thought about that. It's never going to stop. And eventually they'll all become gold and platinum. I never thought about that.

Because it never stops. You know, 1,500 streams. You know, some people say 1,200, some people say 17. 1,500 streams is roughly one album. Right? That's the way they look at it. Huh. Okay.

So if you're trying to go, 500,000 is gold and a million is platinum, 500 streams is one. Right? Yeah. So, you know, you. I think you only live once. I see his 31 million streams on Spotify. Right? It's so crazy.

It's so crazy that people, you know. And then you add into YouTube. What does the YouTube streams on that thing? Because that video is so sick. That's a lot. So anyway, that's why this is important. I think if we're trying to tie a theme on this whole thing, longevity, right?

Longevity. Hanging in there and seeing the full cycle of things and understanding where you're at and adapting your career for where you're at, but also for longevity to keep it together. If you're going to avoid, you know, getting into a shitty dispute with your bandmates, getting a huge, you know, really, you know,

if you can hang in there and keep the brand alive and keep people focused and continue to deliver that content over time and keep an engagement with your fans, if you hang in there long enough, you become cool again, and then you make money for the rest of your days. That's the way I see it. That's the life, and that is what we're all kind of subconsciously hoping for and work. I mean, I think that's what we're all working towards, right?

Sure. Everybody wants to be that big arena band, but I'm telling you, there are so many different levels of success. You don't have to be Metallica in order to make this worthwhile, right? That's true. And remember, we're all, it is about, I've been saying this a lot lately to people. It's about art, and the art is important,

and that is something, because you're not making commercial pop music or jingles or whatever. You're making the shit you're making, because I guess that's what you feel in your heart, and that's what you want, and that's what you want to communicate and how you want to connect with people. But I think it's also important to realize that

this is supposed to be fun. Thankfully for us, it's still fun. Thank God it is. After all many, so many years. But sometimes doing what I do, probably doing what you do too. Sometimes it's a little less fun. Some days drag, you're right. It happens.

And, you know, the personalities or the bullshit or whatever. So I've been going to that card lately and going, wait a minute. This is supposed to be fucking fun. Let's have fun. And making some decisions based on that, too. You know, Metallica, again, and bring it full circle, you know, those motherfuckers, sometimes they do shit that's weird or off kilter or... Of course.

Because they feel it. like it. They want to play Iceland or Antarctica. They're going to play Antarctica. They want to have a festival. They're going to have a festival. And that's just how it is. You know, suicide silence did that too. I think you're living that kind of career. And I think in the grand hindsight of looking at your career and looking at the albums that you made, I think in the end, through the lens of history, you're going to look back and you say, we had fun. We took chances. we did what we wanted, and we never bent the fucking knee, right?

It's true. So that's what I think people want, you know? You don't listen to heavy metal bands so that they can conform. Absolutely. You listen to heavy metal bands because they're empowering. It's empowering to be a fan of someone who never bent the knee. It's true. Right?

Yeah. That's what fucking fires it up. You know, we're like, my fucking shit's fucking sick. Yeah. I mean, what must have been in your head when you were like, here's what we're going to do we're going to destroy all our gear on stage right yeah you're deconstructing the whole freaking thing and just getting as primal and aggressive as you possibly could yeah i saw that show i was like holy shit these guys are on the next fucking level

you know yeah that's what i can't wait to see it again been a long time since i've seen you guys play wow and uh i look forward to uh whenever that can be are you playing l a lay in uh late october come out okay I will. You are personally invited. Thank you. I can't wait. Eric German, I think we should end this one on a high note.

I'm feeling pretty inspired. I'm feeling pretty inspired too. And this was just such a pleasure. And Chris, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you for being here. Thank you for your friendship. Thank you for always having our back throughout the years.

Oh, you always gave us really good advice. You always made sure like we were good. Well, I appreciate that. Thank you for that. And who knows, hopefully, here's to 20 more years of suicide silence, right? 20 more years of Eric German. Cheers. Cheers.

Thanks, Chris. All right, everyone. Thank you. Later.