Garza Podcast - 247 - FLYLEAF | Lacey Sturm: Christianity, Forgiveness, Nirvana & Future Music

Episode Date: August 24, 2026

Garza sits down in-person with Lacey Sturm. Vocalist for the alternative rock band FLYLEAF. https://instagram.com/flyleafmusicGet Suicide Silence tickets here: https://suicidesilence.store/pages/tour00:00 - Chris Farley Loves Decaf Coffee02:06 - Coming Back After 11 Years09:23 - Lacey’s Vocal Problems10:58 - Coping, Avoidance, Anxiety, Fear & Grief24:00 - Christianity, Faith & Belief25:40 - Moving from Florida to Texas27:56 - Returning to Flyleaf38:22 - Getting Into Bass & Guitarv39:19 - Abandonment, Parents, Trauma & Empowerment48:16 - Flyleaf Early Days56:56 - I’m So Sick1:02:13 - Cassie, Columbine Shooting & Evil1:11:11 - Grace & Forgiveness1:13:50 - Prayer, Sobriety & Change1:16:52 - Reaction to Debut Album1:20:48 - Writing Books & Flyleaf Meaning1:27:30 - Strange Experience w/ Record Label & Charity1:32:22 - Music as an Escape // Fun as a Weapon1:34:06 - Molar Pregnancy1:39:30 - How Pregnancy Affects the Voice1:41:09 - Love for Nirvana & Kurt Cobain1:48:11 - Future of Flyleaf Music1:49:00 - Lacey’s 5 Most Influential Albums1:50:35 - Daily Prayer

Oh, that's you. I don't, it doesn't, as long as it's what you need. If you, if you hate it, it's fine. No, it's fine. I'll wear it. Lacey Sturm. Is that better to wear it? What do you think?

Is it better? Oh, I can hear. It's very loud. I guess I could. Yeah, I'll put it to you, yeah. This is me? Yep, boom. Check.

Lacey. Hi. Hi, Lacey. Hi. You already had your coffee? Oh, I just. I don't, I drink decap coffee. I don't really drink coffee.

You drink decap coffee. Don't make fun of me. My husband, my husband's embarrassed. He's like, don't tell people that. Does, uh, does Josh drink coffee? Yes. And what is, Jose? Decaf, really?

No, he doesn't, he doesn't drink decaf. He thinks that's stupid. There's actually a set in Night Live skit with Chris Farley where he's like, he's given some coffee. and the waiter comes up and he's like Did you enjoy your coffee? He's like Yeah, it's pretty good He goes

It is What? That's it That's it Is this it? You drinking Colombian decaf coffee crystal Chris Farley

What You son I actually drink the decaf I actually drink the decaf coffee Crystal's just like he said in there. Wow. Rest in peace, Chris Farley. Yeah.

What a artist. Yeah. Special guy. Jay, are we alive? Lacey Stern, I am honored to be hanging out with you. Thank you for having me. I wanted to show yesterday. Cool.

Thank you. Real quick, I've been drank in almost five months. Wow. So seeing you and seeing fly. was kind of like kind of like a crossover moment for me because I'm so used to go into a show and having a couple beers

not thinking and like vibing with the music but that's kind of my first time like oh it's starting something is clicking over right now I'm like feeling the music now and I don't need to have a couple beers Oh That's cool

So yeah I just wanted to share that real real quick Thank you Yeah show was awesome Yeah it was fun It was a cool show It was, it's been really, shows have been really rowdy. The crowds have been really rowdy.

It's very distracting for me when they're rowdy like that. Because I think the first few shows we had, we had Islander on and they intentionally make people crowd surf and dive into the audience. They're like, pull people up and do all that. And then also we had Heal the Heart, which is, you know, hardcore band. And I think it's just the openers made them crazy. then we get on they're just so crazy they're so excited already

and then I'm just like don't hurt yourselves like my mama heart is like I can't focus this little girl is getting crushed by these big old men who want to crowd surf on top of these little girls yeah

but it's but last night it was cool it was very there wasn't any any uh danger happening in front of me how's it been for you uh like

reconnecting with those songs are you are you like emotionally kind of connecting with it are you trying to like separate it like how's that been for you because there's a point we haven't played a show with with with the band in like 11 years and this was like uh two years ago correct yeah okay it was funny because we have a song fire fire which actually has that kind of erie prophetic quote in there like it's been a long 11 years says that that was like we never played that song before because i left the band before the album came out and it was 11 years that we started again since we played um it's been um it's been um i guess i've changed so much everybody's changed so much um the way that i sing the show this these songs

are very different in my heart i suppose than when i first when i sang them when we wrote them and when i toward them before my relationship with God is very different today than it was back then although it is it's the same but there's a lot of things that are different to my understanding of my uh i guess role in what god is doing in the world is shifted to um my focus of what i should be how i should orient my perspective is different you know it's like So it makes the songs very present to do with me, as opposed to having to deal with the audience or the world at large always. There's always a weight on me about that before.

It's not as heavy anymore. I'm not as much focusing on the world at large, as much as my own heart and what I need to what I need to grow into or learn or be changed by which I think is better

for my mental health and I think everybody's probably too you know Jesus didn't say save the world he said love your neighbor yeah so like if we're just doing that we know we won't have to go out and you know but we're not you know so he sends us great, you know, but it's a different feeling. The focus is humbling. You know, it's humbling

to be in front of people and to love them, strangers, and watch them sing the songs and know that something about it help them in some way or they just feel it really strongly. And it's really cool. But my personal focus is on my own drawing near to God and correcting my own stuff. that's enough that's hard enough yeah yeah so maybe it's not it's not uh you don't have much of like a weight on your shoulders maybe as when you left prior yeah yeah yeah the the way i felt like before is the weight of the the world at large you know like feel like this big calling to like stop the devil and defeat hell and all this you know because i i've been so hurt by so much evil.

I'd seen a lot of evil in my life. I mean, I've seen a lot of evil in my life, in my family's life. And to be able to bring light into those dark places, to write a song that shows the darkness but still has the hope that comes in the midst of it, the strength that comes from it, the story that comes out, the resilience, you know,

that we bring when we get out of it. Or even while we're going through it, even when we're failing, you know, just knowing that there's a strengthening if we're still breathing, there's still a hope to keep going, there's a resilience that's being built, there's a humbling that brings compassion and less judgment of others that makes us be able to, like, helps us to be able to meet people where they are without looking down on everybody. And that's a tricky thing. A lot of people, when they come to faith,

or when they come to some kind of healing or some kind of freedom, you would think that they would be really compassionate. And sometimes we are, but there's always this little, like, the ring of power, right? Where you're like, now you think, oh, now I can, I'm the one to save the world. I'm going to use this for good and all the stuff. And then all of a sudden you've got that evil in you already that you're looking down on people now. You're becoming, you know, you're wearing a mask a little bit because sometimes you're not doing the best. you got to be because you're the person that everybody's looking at to like tell them how to get

out you're kind of lost but you don't know you don't know how to say i'm kind of lost you know because and so then all of a sudden you're you're you're not in the light anymore you're faking things you're wearing a mask you know and and you don't realize how subtle it gets it gets to be you just need help just as much as anybody else you can't you need safe you know what i mean so totally And it seems like a lot of things built up to your departure because you saw a voice doctor because your voice was hurting your right. And it was during a tour and they told you you need at least three months. Yeah.

Like you need to like and you say, well, can I do these last few shows? You said absolutely not. And that the doctor orders that you cannot because you might need throat surgery, correct? Yeah. Or I could be silent for three months and try that. That was crazy. That was very soul purifying. Maybe we should just do that sometimes.

I'm going on a talking strike for three months. Wow. The world goes on without me. Wow. You know, without my input, things happen, you know. It didn't fall apart. You know, my kids are still alive. My husband didn't burn the house down.

It's like, it's very soul healing. to, because what you have to do, what I noticed is that I had to appreciate people better. You know, I learned to appreciate everyone better because I don't realize I don't always let people finish their sentences. I don't always get where they're going with something.

I don't let them, you know what I mean? Sometimes I saw that with a band, loved it. My vocal rest, you know, I remember my grandma got lying and I tried this one time and I was like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. Like, I love you so much better when you're not, you know, yelling at everybody. But on the same, on the same side, it was your grandma that told you're going to church tonight. Thank God she didn't have laryngitis that day.

Right? It's like a weird thing. No, it's true. All right? And you were 16, right? I was 16. Yeah. She said, you're, something's wrong.

She saw something in your face, like you're going to church tonight. That's right. Wow. She knew. She just knew. Grandma says no. They just know. I didn't, you know, I've realized this later on that she had battled similar demons.

I didn't realize that. So she recognized, you know, when you go through something, you can see it in other people. If you went through the similar thing, you can call it out easier because you went through it. Did you both ever talk about it? Much later, when she was suffering a lot in her last years, we talked about it some. And I was shocked. know. But that's how she knew. You know, she knows that. You know, when you've been fighting a dragon, you know its moves and you know that smells like that dragon. You know what I mean? Yeah. Doing,

real quick, doing research on you, Lacey, I finished your book this morning. Thank you. The reason? Yes. Oh, cool. And by far, I was telling Zach earlier, you are by far the most heavy, I don't know the word I'm trying to find. I'm trying to let God just speak through me right now. I don't know. It was, I had to press stop a few times because you would go in your interviews. Then went into your book, you would just go straight into a heavy subject. And a couple of days ago, I was like, okay, you know, I'm going to hang up with Lacey.

Let's start the process. And then I press play on a certain interview on the drive up here, about a 45 minute drive. Five minutes sent, I just press stop. I was like, oh, what are we going to talk about? And I don't know why. The whole drive here, I was just like, I didn't play any music or anything. Okay, I didn't probably sit down and, like, absorb what's happening. So you were by far the most heavy guest I've ever done research on.

Everything I found, everything I was listening to was like, oh, it was a very heavy subject. So, yeah, I was honored to be in your world the past few days. That's interesting. You bring that up because this season, I have gone. gone through some of the heaviest things I've ever, things I couldn't make up. I've never seen a movie about it. I've never read a book about it. I don't even, it's like almost like crazy, the things I'm walking through.

And my coping mechanism is so bizarre to me this season, which is not the healthiest, but it's basically it's avoiding by not talking about anything heavy. I'm like, somebody's like, how you're doing? I'm like, how you doing? What'd you eat for lunch? Like, let's talk about, like. Let's talk about you. Let's talk about something else.

Like, in this. Avoidance? Yeah, like, I've never respected people very much who do that. I'm just like, oh, yeah, we might talk a little bit, but we're not going to be close. I'm not going to be close to this person. They're just, they don't want to talk about things. They're not about deep things. They don't want to get into the heavy stuff.

Like, I just, they're just avoiding people. And I don't, you know, I didn't think. I didn't know the word for avoidant. I would just think they don't want to see things for what they really are. Kind of, I was judging. I had the judgment on them on people. And it sounds so funny because all my judgments I've actually faced in myself eventually. And I don't think, I don't got no more judgments I'm done.

And then I'm like, oh, here's another one. Like, you know, and I realized that I just didn't have respect for people who would change the subject when things got hard. you know and then um i was facing something and i was like i'm gonna fall apart if i keep facing this and i'm like i need to go watch cartoons or something you know what i mean like i got to do something else and i realize that that's sometimes what you need to do and that's okay you know that's new to me it's new that's new for me so i do appreciate i used to feel such anxiety like physically feel it in my stomach when I watch a stupid movie and because my friends want to watch them like I'm wasting my lie bad it's so stupid really and now I'm like if anything

gets deep I'm like can we just watch dumb and dumber or something I'm just like it's weird and it's it's it's appropriate in some ways like there's this quote from this saint that um saint sophroni I think um and I'm just learning about this because five years ago I became an orthodox Christian and they teach about the saints and I never like learned about the historic like historical like what are the people like who tried to follow God and face these terrible things what did they what were they like I know some history but I didn't know like we we know about World War II we know about you know about I don't know we know about the tragedies in history but some but we don't know hear about the people who faced it with hope and overcoming, you know.

And that's a lot. The Orthodox faith comes from very, you know, oppressive country, like backgrounds with oppression and persecution and, you know, really hard things all the time. They're always doing hard things all the time. And so when you're reading about the lives of these Orthodox saints, you read these crazy things that don't make sense in our context like America. So like when I first heard this quote, I was like, I can't do that. That just feels like, but now that I'm going through things, I'm like, this makes so much

sense to me. It's like he says, he says, keep your mind in hell and don't despair. And when it becomes too much, pull back and have a cup of tea. So the reason why he's saying that is because there are times and maybe like, emergency workers like people who like run into the battle they run into the fire to save people they're like people who stand by people in their last moments you know um people who are rescuing people out of tragic situations those people might understand what that means because what he's saying is if we can get to a place where we can encounter all of this struggle and suffering and be with

people in it and not have to pull back. You know, that's a divine attribute to be able to suffer through when, you know, willingly when you can pull back. Like that's the whole thing of Christ. He came and willingly suffered. He's like, no one takes my life from me. I lay it down on my own accord. I'm willingly going to go through human suffering with you. So you're never alone in it. And when you learn how he loved that way, it teaches you to be excited to, see somebody who needs help and be like, oh, I get to help you. I get to be the one to help you. I get to be the one to be with you in this.

It's like a divine moment. I get to experience divine love right now. And sometimes it looks like they're healed, right? We've seen so many miracles with people being healed. So many miracles, circumstantial miracles where things will just get fixed. Everything's good. Everybody's happy. But then, and that's the way it was in the beginning of Jesus' ministry.

but at the end, and even in the lives of his followers, at the end, you know, they all had their own journey of facing suffering, going through and enduring, you know, taking up their crossfall in Christ, you know, that way. So to be able to, and this is what I've had to see lately, you know, I've had to see people going through really hard times and being able to be willing to go through it. I haven't talked about this much, but I'm not trying to be so, dark and heavy.

Like I'm literally trying to like stay away from this stuff. Lacey, I am here to listen and to talk about any subject that you want to talk about. Well, I'm not really sure. They're just going there. So I am trying to be present and thankful. I'm not trying to be avoidant. Okay. I'm trying to not do that either.

But I learned this really well when my grandmother was passing. She passed away April to two Aprils ago now. It's very recent. Yeah. I'm sorry. Oh, well, you know, she, like I said, she had a lot of suffering and she was ready to go. But it still was hard because she's such a strong personality. She made such an impact on everybody.

But when I was there, I realized in the last moment, there was things that I was given to get to stand with her, to be with her through. And if I hadn't been through what I'd been through right before that, I wouldn't have been able to handle that. I would have been like, I just want to remember her the way she was, and I don't want that in my head. But I was so honored to have been strengthened by what I've been going through to get to hold her hand through it, you know? and that's a gift that a lot of people miss because maybe we've avoided the strengthening part

to be able to be with somebody when they go through that, you know, that door of going to the other side, you know, and it's the, it's those hard things that I wouldn't have picked for myself that strengthened me to be able to stand there and go through it and view it as a gift and a holy moment. moment that can you endure those holy moments that are heavy and hard and beautiful and beautiful you know like so on one yeah because like i mean jesus's mom stood there i can't imagine standing there beside this person you gave birth to and loved and and so pure and holy i mean it's jesus and like only loving and watching them suffer through And everybody left him because they couldn't handle it.

It said when the disciples fell asleep, when he was asking him stay up and pray because he knew he was about to go to the cross, they fell asleep from grief. It said they were just overwhelmed with grief. And I'm like, God, I just want to sleep when I'm depressed. You know, I just want to go to bed. And I'm like, I get that.

I just want to watch a movie and eat food and stay in bed all day. You know, that sounds good to me. And but I think, you know, there's... That sounds fun all of the way. times. But you can't do it. Every day. Every day does not go away.

Let's just eat a pizza for breakfast. Vanilla ice cream for breakfast is my favorite. Try it. Before you brush your teeth, just eat a spoon of vanilla ice cream. That would throw the day away. Let me know if you do it. It's great. Your body will be high on surgery.

You can't even function. Oh, yeah. So he's got Sains of Rone up there. that's funny he did he did he did that he's the one that made that quote I just said but he's got some crazy books that I did not understand my first read home and then after I've gone through all these things I'm like I understand this so much oh wow so so you went back to him yeah yeah and so now I'm like standing with my grandma while she's going to her the other side going through this with her I'm just using that example there's so many things I could say and there does come a time

when I had to let go and go I had to go do something else I went and like to cleaned her house. I'm like, let me just go do, go hang all with the dogs at your house a little while and play with them in the backyard. And there was this scared part of me. It's like, what if I go and she goes while I'm gone? You know what if she goes to have and while I'm gone? I'm going to miss it, but I was like, I got to go, you know. There's times when you have to pull back and have a cup of tea like he says, you know, but you can't just keep eating pizza and sit in the bed watching that movie, right? That's where I want to stay. But I would miss the whole. moment that strengthening that beauty that I would never trade right and to to get to a place where

we can endure is so divine it's not um it's not in us it's not in me right yeah and that's what i've been learning lately is because i want to avoid the hard things i want to avoid the heavy talking i want to i don't want to talk about all this stuff i mean i picked my grandma to talk about because it was the easiest one because I think I've processed that a little bit more than other things I'm still going to. Processing takes a lifetime right. Thank you for saying that. Yeah, it does. I mean, you're not calm down about it. You've been, I mean, you've been religious for well over 25 years. I mean, you were 16. 16. Right. So yeah. Wow. And still, it's an ongoing. Well, the thing about that is that it changed me forever because I can't unsee that.

And when you have the, I know it was a unique experience. I used to think that if, Somebody said they knew God or they knew they were Christian that they all had this experience. And I realized now it's just uniquely, like it was a unique experience. And now I don't judge people the way I used to. I'm like, how do you say that if you said you believe in God or you said you're a Christian? Didn't you see that he's like, did you see all your stuff in his light? Didn't you see how? Why do we do that?

We just judge people. We just like judge like someone we're talking to or just like, oh, Yeah, because I guess we're just trying to understand life and figure it out without knowing. Without being able to understand somebody's heart or their experience. Now I realize, well, if you never saw that, actually, you're farther ahead than I am if you believe because I wouldn't believe unless I saw that. And your faith is mysterious to me. How do you believe without seeing? Wow.

That's crazy. But I did get to see some things in that moment that I can't unsee for the rest of my life. I don't have the luxury going, well, well, this is, this sucks. There must not be a God. I have to be like, oh, this sucks. I don't know what God's doing. Yeah, I mean, you've had a very troubled childhood from my research. And I didn't notice about you, but you were born in Florida.

Yeah. But I guess that people just like, they just like relate you and fly out to Texas and like Houston and that. Yeah. So how did you move from Florida and get to Texas? I never lived in Florida In my memory I was born there I was born there my mom was in a relationship with my dad

Who's both of their parents So they were teens Both of their parents were on a The base there, the Navy base Or I don't know if it's a Navy or it's in homestead There's a military base there And that's where we were born I was born

and my mom was there with her mom who was married to somebody i guess in the military and my dad whose father was in the military i guess and then they broke up and she she ended up moving in mississippi and then texas where her family was my grandma ended up marrying someone else ended up to Texas so that's how we ended up there we went arlington texas for a while like for my whole life actually back and forth with there in Mississippi where my grandma lived. And then eventually I met the guys in Fly Leaf. I lived in Temple, Texas, which is near Austin.

And then when I met my husbands and we got pregnant with my son, my first son, his family was trying to find a house in Texas and live in Pennsylvania. And by that time, I didn't, I wasn't really hanging out with anybody. Like, me and the Fly Leaf guys, we didn't hang out when we weren't on tour, really. we were touring all the time but and my family was far and I was like well just go Pennsylvania where your parents are if they want to hang out with us so he did so he did that so that's how I ended up in Pittsburgh okay and that and that's where you are now yeah nice you've been all over I have been a lot of places I never got to go to China I've never

been to Hawaii I've never been to South America so other than that well we got to Four dates. Yeah. There we've got to go there. How are you feeling playing shows now? Are you feeling more comfortable? Maybe, oh, maybe. Because something, I'm just the, I mean, me being an outsider, like, wow, there's the,

no matter what, like, the musical chemistry is still there, like, the spiritual chemistry is still there. It was interesting to watch. Yeah, you watch. Oh, well, that's cool. Yeah. You notice the, the chemistry is a lot of. of years of being growing up together.

It's like reuniting with your family. It's like a family reunion, you know. And Fliley did it right where it's just like, okay, like the band comes back, but it's all the OG members. It's all four of you. That was miraculous kind of, you know. But the four you started and it's a four you now. And you can tell that all four you guys are having fun.

Well, our guitarist was in a motorcycle accident less than a year ago. Really? He broke his back. Oh, no. He almost didn't make it, right? Is he here? Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

So they did surgery on him and, and he, they said, you got a year recovery, but he's doing, he's doing better. Like, he's standing up. He's holding a guitar, you know. He didn't know if he'd be able to hold a guitar. He was in so much pain and broken. But he's doing great. I would have never, never thought. Yeah.

Oh, my goodness. It was also. unfortunately unfortunately it was such a bitter sweet moment because I was just kind of enjoying it like and uh you're playing I don't even know

we do it too a lot of bands do it I don't even what like what what what is called a pre song yeah right like you play a song prior to like your show and you guys are playing Chavelle the Reddit and unfortunately it's very fitting

because you're um rich your previous sound front of he would sound check that throughout your whole career, right? Yeah. So it's kind of like bittersweet that you brought it back. Well, his wife, Katie, is tour managing Fly Leaf.

And his son, yes. Wow. And his son, Kirby, is out with us now too. Wow. And he's learning, you know, production stuff and sound stuff. And so it's really special for us to get to play that song as its own tribute to Rich that he's with us too on the tour. Help her sound to be good, Rich, you know, pray for us.

And it's been good. Yeah, it was such a, party is such a hard time for you going through, you meet with a voice doctor saying that your voice, you need some rest. It's shortly after then Rich passes away in a car accident. So I could kind of understand being an out. outsider oh that's kind of what maybe uh influenced kind of like stepping away and then you just had jack you're a first son so kind of like three like i call i always call it when you get like a trifecta

stuff that that happens to you it's like one thing okay two things but you get a trifecta of anything positive or negative it's just like it's so much more intense it was um i when i got married i had this thought that I don't know what that will mean for the band. Whatever is good for our marriage is what we're going to do. And my husband really respected and honored Fly Leaf and would never have wanted to be a part of anything ending. He also wrote some of the songs on Memento Mori, and he helped that.

I mean, he was a big part of it, the Montemori time. When I had Joshua Lewis, Jack, I wasn't sure what to do. And when Rich died, I thought, what if this was my last year on the planet? Would I be touring a fly leave? What would I be doing? And I knew I would be 100% focused on my kid. And I would want him not miss any of that, you know? and so it made it really easy to make I knew that was part of me but I wasn't sure if it was the right thing

and so it really did help me to make that decision it's true it's a tough decision not after that it was easy I mean it was it was it was easy to see the right what I needed to do it was hard to do it hard to do it yeah that's the way you should say it okay it's easy but that actually do it it's a It was very painful. It was very difficult for everybody. I think the guys felt abandoned. You know, they were kind and we didn't talk about each other. And in the media or anything like that in any negative way.

But there was a lot of things that need to get healed, I think, afterwards too. So I think that's the cool thing, too, about the tour. And is that we all respect where each other is all of, you know, Jared and Samir. I mean, Jared and James have kids too now. And they understand completely about making decisions that are about spirit family. Yeah. How long did it take for you guys to reconnect and talk?

Years, assuming? Well, when I was leaving the band, there was some legal stuff that we had to deal with. And I think there was some, at some point, they were told not to speak to me. during some process or whatever was really that really was hard for me because they were like they were like my family your family yeah I haven't really talked about that before so kind of like went through the season or like not trust anybody that was hard it still kind of hurts me sometimes when I think about it but I think they felt they felt that way too

You know, so I don't judge them for it, but I think I had to go through that too, because sometimes if we don't, we don't cling to God like we should, and we lean on people when we should be leaning on God, and people are people, you know, we got to give people grace for being not God. Only time get hold out, huh? Like everyone else kind of had to have their own life, have kids. And kind of like, oh, we get it Lacey, like, yet have a family. Yeah.

And now there's just such kindness and grace and sensitivity and sensitivity between all of us. And it's the coolest community. I've never found anything like it anywhere. And I've tried. You know, I've tried to have community like I think it should be with other people and families and churches and communities. and communities and whatever for my kids and stuff. But I'm like, it's just a really rare thing to be able to be like,

hand your kid over to somebody and know that you don't have to, it's just like they were going to your own house. And it's wild how much they get along. They all act like they grew up in the same house. Wow. It's cool. That must be a trip to see. Yeah, it is.

It's a miracle pretty much. It's like grace. I would call grace. Wow. So even after all that, like you were trying to find like, a community and a connection but nothing kind of maybe I guess scratched the itch of like like the bond of of the four of you is nothing like it nothing like it oh wow and it's cool to say and be able to say at 44 I've done it too try to like kind of separate myself from the guys in the

band but uh no matter where I look even I'm in a great relationship now with my woman for six years but there's something about that it is unfortunately took age and as you said earlier like a sensitivity everyone is more sensitive now okay we understand it's something greater than us yeah let's serve like the band and serve yeah yeah there's not there's so much history yeah yeah it's so much history yeah and just realizing too how self-focused I was and blind I was to other people's um how I affected other people you know I didn't I didn't understand I don't know, so many things. I was just really hard to.

I still don't. It's fine. Me too, yeah. I'm 40. I'm like, what am I doing? Yes, absolutely. Me too. But I also feel like I understand a little bit about how at least I affected other people in a way that I didn't mean to.

Totally, yeah. I was like, why are you pissed off about that? Like, why is this matter? Now I see, oh, it's like that was really personal to them. the way you said that actually did matter. They would have heard you differently if you hadn't said this this way. Just relational intelligence was not there. I didn't learn it.

I learned an unhealthy and abusive relational intelligence. You know, you talk louder when people don't listen and then, you know, if it's not working, then you manipulate them or you point out what they're doing wrong or like you, you know, like all these unhealthy things that, so sad that I can see I was like that with my bandmates. I'm just not realizing that I was doing that until later and seeing how justified they were and a lot of the things that I think hurt me, you know, that they did.

I mean, you had to be married to like all these people. I mean, it's like marriage counseling. Yes. It does not exist for bands, I don't know. Yes. So real quick, your mother was a musician and she played guitar. So she had a classical nylon string guitar around the house. So you were like pick it up, sorry jamming.

And then was it your, you were 15 and on Christmas you got your first bass because you told your mom that you wanted to play a bass because your brother was already playing guitar, right? So you got a Fender jazz bass, right? Yeah, it was 14. Okay. Okay, nice. Mm-hmm. That was great Christmas. Best Christmas ever.

Purple strap? Yeah. Sick. Yeah, it was great. And me and my brother started playing together. He was my best friend from then on. It was great. And you're, is it the same brother that you're 10 months apart?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Because your mom had him when she was 15 and then 16 when she had you. Mm-hmm. Wow. And I'm sorry. But the doctor is told your mom, this should probably be a abortion.

And she didn't listen. Thankfully, because now we have you. Yeah. There's something, I don't know what it is. Maybe you could help me process this for myself. But I don't know if I should talk about this. But yeah, there's something happens when you're not even born yet. And those conversations happen.

Right. It's true. When you're not wanted right out of the gates, right? It kind of stays with you forever. Yeah. Right. And there's like some kind of like abandonment issues. Yeah.

Right? Because yeah, I was a mistake. So you kind of like, you take like these abandonment issues with everything you do. And it'll manifest. Yeah. You know, but luckily for you, you found something to channel it. And, you know, I found, you know, music and you did the same thing. Yeah.

kind of like kind of stamps it's always like kind of right there and no matter how spiritual that i get or no matter how level headed i am it's just it's always like it's like a party of you right is that am i am i wrong there yeah i think you're actually giving me some therapy right now wow it's true you're like but the thing is too there were certain people who would come in to my life that would make me feel like I was wanted, you know, at certain times. Like, God would always bring, bring the moon in the darkness. You know, he would bring someone or something. And I could look back and say it was so dark, but then I would miss the fact that if there's a moon, that means the sun somewhere, you know, if you can see it. You know, if there's light somewhere, then there's,

God wasn't gone, you know. Yeah. And so that, that reminds me of those moments, too, when you were talking about how there were always, there was always something there to tell you matter and that, you know, your life is important. There's always something along the way. Yeah. And I think the mistake people make is that they think that's them. I am this trauma, like forever, you know. kind of like low in it.

Yeah. Yeah. There's a girl, Amethyst, Michelle. She's a singer, songwriter, and she posted one time. She's actually the daughter of like a spiritual father of mine, Eric Patrick. I wrote about him in my second book. And she, she sing. I taught her to write songs, actually.

She's now singing and writing songs when she's like eight years old. But she posted one time, tell a girl she's, She's pretty and she'll believe you for a day. Tell her she's ugly and she'll believe you for the rest of her life. Wow. I was like, oh yeah, that's true. That's so messed up. Yeah, there she is.

Ammy. So cool. We're just wired that way. You know, it just stays there. But, you know, I also believe in God. And this is always there. It's always there. If you choose to listen, you know, I never knew, I never knew my father.

I never said that publicly ever. But since I don't know why you're kind of... Sorry? Cracking me over now. Sorry. So yeah, so there's like this like an abandonment issue. Yeah. It's just always there.

But at the same time, you are not that. And there is God and there's always light and there's always a positive spin on things. It was weird you said that because I'll just tell you. I didn't want to say this because it sounded weird. But when you were talking to me and you were saying that about the abandonment issue and you're a me of a stepdad that I had that was a father to me when I was younger that actually like wanted to he wanted to love me no matter what was going on with him and my mom as a as a daughter his name is Steve Mosley he he's a guitarist too and he played a band called Solitude

Eternus and I don't know if you heard of that before but anyway he's like 80s 80s but um kind of metal but anyway he uh i think that's his old band i don't know where he is but he's not oh there he is he's on this really over here yeah but the but the thing is like it's a metal dude yeah that he's not in that picture he's in the one next to it yeah i think now there he is right there on the bottom corner see yeah right there that guy right then right on the other side of the youtube picture where you're house is oh Over, over. He's right in the corner.

No, no, no, you're right. On the bottom corner? No, you're in the right picture. Sorry, I'm pointing. Yeah, right there, right there. Okay, okay. R left. It doesn't, he kind of look like you a little bit.

He's like, reminds me of you a little bit. And you're sitting there telling me. That's kind of crazy. Yeah. You're sitting here telling me things. And what I was thinking about why you're saying that was how I learned something. I did do some therapy recently, not that long ago. with the past year.

And I learned all this, like, therapy stuff, like that people talk about your inner child. And they say, you can go. Yeah, that's him. Oh, wow. You can go to, um. I kind of see it. Yeah.

Whoa. He's great. He was really kind to me. He taught me some stuff on the guitar too. I wish I would have practiced more. We got to this one part and I was like, this is hard. mixolydian aeolian you know like stuff i was like but um but he was when you were telling me that i was thinking about how he was one of those moons right that

god would bring along i was thinking about him when you were talking and then you when you were saying that about that i was thinking how you have a father like love in you that is attentive and cool that you're like it made me think of that that's in you you know that's probably why you connect with your fan base and like people like this when you do interviews you know um and to be able to recognize in therapy with your inner child you go as yourself and you go to the child in your memory and you hook them and you say you know you are so important and you are so beautiful and you're going to be so awesome when you grow up and it's going to be okay and you're going to go through our things and you're going to get through them and you tell your inner child all these things

you know and I was like I thought that was stupid when I first heard I'm like that or whatever but then I actually walked through it with a particular memory I had and it was very healing but when you were talking I was thinking about you doing that with your like your little boy self you're like oh yeah you know your daddy's missing out because you're really cool yeah always always talking and trying to access the inner child with a for negative stuff you might not process when you were five to now being jaded like wanting to access like like the music side of you is that innocence always trying to access that that that creative it's just like transcend your soul you know trying to always access that part of it's hard yeah you know or or is it well well my mom there's a gift in that too because I noticed and I I I

recently was working with preschool kids with at my kids' school, the past year, two years. Actually, I've been working with the kids at the school, kindergarteners, first graders and preschoolers. And the thing is, when you give them space and you don't tell them what to do, they become super creative. And they, if the more that you give them what to do,

the more they lose that ability to trust themselves to be creative and to do the thing they think they're going to mess up. And so there was a lot of time I spent alone as a kid and I realized that's such a superpower and a gift to me because I'm able to do, to always have that brain on that a lot of people get shut down really early because somebody's always like, don't do it that way, do it this way. You shouldn't do that because it's dangerous, do this, you know, all that stuff.

And instead, I just learned a lot of things myself with my brother and me being stupid, you know. But we became very creative and resourceful and we're willing to try things and that makes us good artists. I think. Totally. For you too, probably. Let's try, make mistakes again and again and again.

Hopefully something sticks. Yeah. You part, the first fly leaf record dropped in 2000. First of all, the band started in 2002, correct? Yeah, that sounds right. So flydly starts, suicide starts, same year. Oh, cool. Nice little parallel there.

So I was curious at what were you to get on like a pod? What were you doing from 02 to 05? What was that process like getting that band off the ground, writing those songs? Well, I played acoustic guitar at coffee shops and stuff. And James, the drummer, had gotten kicked out of the band Unveiled, which he was a part of. He was playing keyboard for a band called Unveiled, which was the local big. band in the area that made the scene start with Unveiled in Temple, Texas. And he played keyboard and his friend played guitar.

And then they got picked up by a manager who said, you got too many members in your band. You don't need all these people. And so they ended up kicking out James, no keyboards anymore. And the other guitarist got kicked out. And so they got a place together. And James was working at Dell Computers. He was building computers and the guitarist was doing trucking. Like he became a trucker.

No one plays drums like him. I was watching him like, I have never seen anyone sit like that before. Really? Yeah, I was watching him like, oh, it's kind of getting tripped out. He has like this like, whoa, I just doing a drum beat. It was cool. I was like, oh, wow, I like different drummers. It's awesome.

Yeah, he's really an interesting person. I don't know anyone like James. Nice. No one. Beautiful. can't compare him to anybody. He's a very unique person. Well, so he saw me sing at the coffee shop and he had some recording gear at his house and he's like, do you want to record? I think you should record those songs. I have some stuff you want to record it. I was like, okay. And my whole thing was,

I didn't want to be a musician necessarily, but I had heard that spiritual pop up mine say this parable that Jesus gave about the talents. And he was like, I gave, so there's a, a king and he gave one person, one servant, 10 talents, one servant. I don't know, what is this story? Five talents and one servant, one talent. And he's like, go and do something with what I gave you. And so they go out and the one that had 10, gained 10 more. And he's like, great, you know, you were faithful little, I'll give you more.

And then another one's five. I gained five more. He said, great, I'll give you more because you're faithful little. No one that had one, he was like, well, I was scared. I was going to lose your stuff. So I just buried it. And here's what you, what's yours? I'll give it back to you.

And he's like, you wicked lazy servant, you did nothing without I gave you, go, you know, like, you're not going to be useful to my kingdom. Just go out. And I was like, well, I thought to myself, I don't know why I'm still alive except that God saved my life that day that I wanted to end my life. And ever since then, I've had every day given to me. I knew it was a gift. And I want to thank God for that. I just want to thank him. How do I thank God?

I mean, he's God. What can't give him nothing? Like, what do you do? And hear this story, I was like, maybe I can give him the talents, whatever they are. And so my mom is a musician, and I resented that because I was like,

I don't want to hear another song. I want you to get a job so we don't have to move because we need to pay the bills and where's the food and all this stuff. And I just didn't. Your mother would give away the food stamps to you.

your babysitter, right? Wow. It's a hard life. It's a hard life. How could you pay her? She had to use the money she worked for to pay the bills. Wow.

Or her ticket for giving her inspection sticker out which costs money that she didn't have. It's like, it's a cycle. But yeah, so but she was very generous too. It's funny how generous people

who are in poverty are because they know what it's like, you know. But yeah, so I was like, well, I can play guitar too so I'll play guitar for you Lord and I just did it in my bedroom playing guitar my bedroom for whatever for fun and and then I got an opportunity to play at the coffee shop somebody asked me and I was like okay so I did it just to steward it you know I was like if you want to use this at the coffee shop

I'll do it maybe somebody will be blessed by it I don't know maybe you'll like it I don't know And so it just kept happening like that. And then when James offered to record the songs, I was like, okay, that's what we'll steward it, you know. So I went and recorded with James, and then we decided it would be cool to have a band with the songs. And so we started doing that. We got together the space player that's no longer in the, he was like there for just a little bit. He let us practice in his pool house. Sick.

And then Samir and Jared, actually Samir was in a band called. called, well, it was a band called, I forgot, I think it was called, I don't know, but it was a local band of friends that they just started this band and they had asked me if I wanted to sing for them for a minute. And then when practice came around, I was supposed to go and nobody called me, told me where it was. So then I called them and Samir answers the phone and he's like, we're not looking for a singer anymore. So like he kicked me out because he wanted to sing. And so then after that, um, I knew Jared was in the band with Samir. So I said, I called Jared and I was like, do you want to play guitar for me and make, you know, these recordings of the acoustic into like a rock band song? You know, rock band songs? He's like, okay, so he shows up, James playing a drums,

this other bassist, and then Jared, and Jared shows up with Samir. He couldn't drive. Jared was 15. and Samara 16 he had a car. And so Samir's, I'm like, okay, cool, thanks for bringing Jared. And Samir's like getting his guitar out. And I'm like, what are you doing, dude?

And Jared's like, I don't want to play without Samir. I'm like, fine. That dude who kicked me out of the band, whatever. Got called out, dude. And Pat was in a band. Pat was in a band called The Grove at the time. There's all these little bands that popped up around that time. And his band was so cool.

I mean, Pat was like, he'd play with no shirt on, he'd blow fire in his mouth, and he'd, like, be all crazy. Whoa. Such a good bassist and an artist. And we did a battle of the bands with the Grove. And we won. And Pat was like, we've been a band longer than y'all. You know?

And then when we were looking for a bass player, he came and tried out. And it was so cool that he liked us. Because now he's cool. He's like the best part of our band. And this was 03, right? I guess so. I don't know. O2 when we started.

And how old were you? O three. I was 21. Okay. I was 20 when we started without Pat. Okay. I just want to get the timeline right. I'm bad with time.

Okay. Well, that's fine. All good. ADHD. Time blindness. So when you started writing those songs, were you writing? collecting for that first record did you guys know yet let like let's write a record or we

just writing songs i think we're just writing songs i mean i really know where it was going to go we did we did an ep he's got it up there that was pat's sister's dress she gave me that's a band it's like a country band and my husband was like what is this he he's a graphic designer we It was the virus in that font. Okay. It was like, it's okay. I forgive you. I was like, I really like that font.

He's like, we'll own it then, I guess. Like, don't tell anybody, no. Yeah, but virus. That was the name of our band, passerby. So funny. The internet. How does it know all this stuff? Because I heard,

um, the, more specifically, the song, I'm so sick. That was the last song you guys wrote for that record, right? Hmm, yeah, maybe so, yeah, because the record label was not

kept going, keep writing. That's what, because not to put you on the spot, but I got that quote from you. Yeah. Because you were talking, I found like a one, one minute clip if you were talking about this, I don't know how old this was. It was like 15 year old.

When I remembered it. Oh, wow, like the last one, I wonder what, uh, what they were, what they felt writing the whole record. Because that song it became what it is. Yeah, that was the first one. And I guess that's why, because then they were like, okay, we got one. You can stop.

Really? Yeah. So, they like that one. It's weird because it's so different from the rest of the record. Well. It's like, what made you sing that way? Well, everybody in the band has different tastes and music. So Samir like classic rock.

He likes the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, like that kind of stuff. Samir likes Radiohead and like Prague rock. He can't write anything that's. It's a normal time signature. It's annoying, actually. I don't like it. But, and then Jared, he likes crunchy, like, melodic rock, like, incubus. And then Pat is just a wild card.

He likes all kind of things. But when I first met him in the Grove, we were playing kind of like this kind of scoff stuff. It was kind of funny. But we really value. each other's input. We let the art become what is with everybody owning their own part.

That's why we split everything equal because it makes it what it is and everybody has input lyrically. And I have to believe what I'm singing. So I can change lyrics. They allow me to do that. We all know when we bring something to the table

it's going to get chopped up. So you have to be willing to do that. And so we all respect each other's part. And that makes everything random. Like, what's the song going to sound like? Well, no. It's going to go and become whatever it is. Maybe very melodic, maybe very heavy, maybe very, like, I don't know, emo.

I don't really know. But that's why I think in the end I like heavy music. a lot like when I did my solo album there's definitely a sound that I that I lean towards it's a lot dark and heavy and melancholy kind of stuff so were you guys in like the same room were you uh did that did someone bring in a riff or did you bring in like an idea or like a couple of lyrics yeah yeah every song is different I mean like um I think with With that first album, I read Sam was written by Samir and Jared, and it was on a whiteboard, and somehow it got erased the JA and the E-E-R, and it became, Dear Red Sam, Mir.

It was a Red Samir. It was a Red Samir. Oh, yeah. And that was a riff that, or a song that they wrote already, like on guitars. And then we brought it in, and I put lyrics to it. All around me was a riff that Samir had. We brought it into the jam room. We jammed the songs until, and see where they go. And if I can hear the story in the song, then that helps the orchestration of how the arcs go and what will happen with it.

Yeah. You're just like, eff it. I'm not screaming right now. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I don't know where we kind of listen to the whole record. It is out of nowhere. Yeah.

Right. And then it just became what it is now. Yeah. Yeah, Fully Alive was a riff I wrote on tour with Trust Company, with Layla Palmer. Kevin Palmer is a singer for Trust Company. His wife was out with us, and she has some kind of disorder where she would have pain,

so much pain in her body that she couldn't get out of the bed for two months at a time. and she was the most beautiful, happy, like, I mean, I think goes back to what we're talking about earlier about suffering. It's like she was just so full of life and willing to help anybody and willing to, like, be about everybody else's stuff and never talk about her own stuff. And then when I found out that she had so much suffering

that was consistent in her life, I was just blown away at how she was such a, she was just alive because she loved she really did love getting to love people because she spent so much time having to deal with her own pain that when she could love others that was her joy anyway so that song was about encountering her on the road Cassie was about the Columbine high school shootings that happened when I was in high school and I was a Christian I knew Christian and it was such a strange like important thing to me because the trench coat mafia guys who plotted the school shootings to me were like kids I would have been friends with you know I never thought about that they were kind of like metal looking I never thought about that till right now yeah I mean I those are people I will probably hang out with yeah in high school I never thought about that wow

well for me it was like I felt like grieved for those guys because I barely came out of that. You know, when you don't care about your own life, it's, like, hard sometimes to care about other people, you know, or how you affect everybody, but they even just, like, the seed of, like, what their philosophy was was mine. I was an atheist.

I hated people. I, like, didn't believe, I thought this was all an accident. And if that philosophy was close to mine, I loved being hateful to people. And the seed of murderous hatred, you know, and anger. And that stem from you being 10. right because of because your cousin Kelly. My cousin Kelly

being murdered which is such an interesting thing because we think we're fighting against the evil by embracing the evil that hurt you. You know you become the evil thing we think we're fighting against it and really becoming it. You know?

It's like you screamed something at me and then I scream back at you. Yeah so in my mind also I was a Christian now So I identified with Cassie Brinall and Rachel, like, I would have been the one looking at those guys in the face being like, yes, I'm a Christian. You know, I would have been so happy to be able to say that to them after being like one of them, kind of like in that friend group probably would have been my friend. I've been like, dude, I'm a Christian, you know.

I never thought about that until you said it. Yeah, my friends, I had one friend that wore a transcoat and one that wore an orange jumpsuit. Oh, yeah. I would have loved wear orange jumpsuit. I was like, where's that? I'll go by that. Yeah, I was like, I never thought about that. It's a weird thing, you know, like, I think we don't realize that evil just wants to spread

itself. And we think we're responding to evil in some kind of justice way by being evil back, but it's actually growing the evil. And that's why Martin Luther King Jr. says, hate can't drive out. Hate only love can do that. And right there, those two things collided in the story of Cassie Bernal. Cassie Bernal was pointed, was, and Rachel Joyce, got another one that didn't get as much press, but two girls, and I actually had Rachel's name

in the original recording, but Howard thought it was more catchy to have the same name in the song. So I did Cassie and Rachel in the song originally, and I sing it still on live, live. I sing both the names. But the gunman pointed the gun in Cassie's face and said, do you believe in God? And she said, yes, and he shot her. And she died. and then he pointed the gun in Rachel's face and he said, do you believe in God?

She said yes, and he shot her and she didn't die. So he asked her again, do you still believe in God? And she said yes. And she shot her and she died. That's pure evil. Yeah. Well, it's also to me what I noticed, to me, what stands out is her response.

Because we don't realize we're actually faced with those choices. I know that. Yeah, so there's Rachel. Yeah, because we just have like the headlines So you actually read into into the story Yeah, I got to meet their families Oh my goodness

I got to meet some kids that go That went to the school They've come because of the song actually They've come and talk to me about that So it's really interesting to me that In our, this is something that feels kind of eerie To us But in other countries this is very tame

for Christians. Being an Orthodox Christian, like recently, not that long ago, there was like 21 Coptic Christians that were beheaded by, you know, Muslim terrorists, I guess, you know? And there was one guy who was captured that wasn't a Christian.

And he stayed with them, and by the end, they were like, you're not a Christian, you can go. And he's like, I'm just like them. And he died with him. He's like, I'm not leaving them. I believe in their God now. That was crazy.

And there's a documentary about it called 21 Martyrs. It's like a cartoon like that community. And so actually, the wives of these men, there was this one guy who, a Christian TV guy who was interviewing the martyrs wives or the guys who died. the wife of this one girl, the wife of this one guy, she was like, are you sad? You must be so sad. She goes, I'm not sad. So I'll never be sad. She's like, my husband's a murder. I'm not worthy to be a wife of a murder. He's like, God protected me and my daughter. He's protected my daughter. He's like, my husband taught me about Christ. She said, he suffered for all of us to be forgiven for everything forever. And he said, she said, can we shed a little blood for him? And she's like,

basically schooling this Christian, like, interviewer guy about what it is. She's like, I'm honored. He's like, he, and then the other wife was like, they, they held their heads like lions. They stood in the face of death and they defeated it. I'm like, whoa. That's like, that's crazy. Like, we just, and to me, I was inspired. When you don't fear death, you can live.

Wow. You know? And when you have something to hang on to that you know, you know, like they knew. Like Cassie knew, Rachel knew. She's like, that's why it says in the song Cassie pulled the trigger. Oh, my goodness. Whoa. You know, and that's, to me, like, it makes you free because, like, love is the thing that overcomes.

That's exactly what my, the Orthodox understanding of Christ's death. He destroyed death by death and like took the power of hate out of their hands by forgiving the worst sin to kill God, forgive it. I forgive it for all of you. And that's what he says on the cross. Father, forgive them. They don't know what they're doing.

That's our response to life, you know. It's a weird thing. Like sometimes I'm like, I have this thing where sometimes things will get stolen. Like something will get stolen. for me and I love when that happens because I know this sounds stupid but because because as a Christian it says bless those who curse you you know that's our we bless our enemies so and we forgive right that's our that's how we defeat evil it's not like this codependent like dormant it's like

I'm not I don't have any choice this is what I do no I'm willingly like entering into this like I forgive you like I bless you right so when it's something get stolen from me, I get so excited because I'm like, I used to steal things all the time. Like, I was like, I thought it was wrong not to steal something when somebody left their stuff out because that's going to not teach them. So somebody left yourself out, you steal that and you teach them a lesson because they need to keep up with their stuff. It's their fault. It's their fault. Absolutely. The criminal mindset was me. Like, I remember the first time I realized it was wrong to steal. I was like, wow, like, oh, it's wrong to steal.

deal that's so peaceful what if nobody's still? This is so mind-blowing. But when somebody steals from me, I get excited because I'm like, I get to forgive them. Because if they stole from somebody else, they'd be cursed. That person would curse them, right? They want to, like, hurt them or, like, they would probably be cussing them, right? Like, and curses are important.

Like, what we say with our mouth is important. So now I get to pray for this person who's stealing, and I get to bless them. And so I was like, God, please bless them. and change their heart, let them bring it back. It's so funny. It always happens. Sometimes they'll end up bringing it back. It's wild how many times that's happened.

It's like a weird miracle that I get to experience. It's pretty funny. You really have a strong belief in God. It's inspiring. You were a teenager, right? And you found out you had a tumor in your throat, correct? Right, right after. I became a Christian.

Wow. Yeah. So right out of the gates, you're tested. Boom. Well, I didn't think I should even be alive. Like, a lot of things left me. So my belief is cheating. I mean, I had a real encounter with God.

I can't unsee it, right? Not everybody gets that. So it's not like faith like most people have that's very beautiful to God. It's like, I saw this. Like, I know there's a God. Like, I have to have faith in other things in other ways. But I definitely had this real experience.

So for me, when I got the tumor, I remember thinking, I was going to destroy my body. I was going to die. Like, I don't have a plan for my life. I don't know. I mean, God knows. He does have this. He made me, like, he's making a heartbeat. He knows what's happening.

But to me, it wasn't. my grandma actually making me like freaking out about it. I was like, I don't know, whatever, you know, because the first thing I lost when I came out of that encounter was fear. I lost three things.

I can't remember exactly what they are. I lost fear. I lost the ability to be embarrassed, which is so strange, because I just laugh at myself all the time after that. I was like, and then the other thing I lost was offense. I couldn't be offended

because I kept feeling so sorry for people, like for the negative things in their own hearts. Because when you have that before God, it's like you wish, you know it shouldn't be there. And I just wish, like, if people are being mean, I'm like, you have meanness in you that is poisoning you. You know, and I understood that. And I didn't get offended and I wasn't afraid.

And I couldn't be embarrassed anymore for such a long time. And then I remember I little by little changed You know I still struggle with all that stuff now But at the beginning when that tumor happened I wasn't afraid I was just like well I don't know Maybe I'm supposed to have a tumor I don't know I don't know

But my grandma didn't want me to have one And this lady at church prayed for me And there was a miracle of it disappearing From the sonogram I mean it was on the sonogram They tried to take another one and it was gone. Wow. That was cool.

I believe in prayer. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not religious yet. To be honest, I haven't even read the Bible yet. It's on my, it sounds dumb to say. It's on my to-do list. There's so many things.

It's okay, I got to learn Spanish. I got to read the Bible. All these things that my girlfriend says I have to do. You need to train Jiu-Git-su. I have all these things that got to do. But like I have like this long list of things to do in the year,

but reading the Bible is one of fun. But I am, I do believe in God and I believe in prayer. And recently for, recently to even like the past 10 years when I started praying, things have aligned in my life. But it seems like it's negative.

But you got the answer. Wow. You got the answer. I remember like, I was 26, 27. I was an alcoholic. And then I was like, I need help. I can't change by myself.

And I got the answer. My our singer passed away. And that just changed. So it seems like it's like a negative. It's terrible. But unfortunately, you get the answer that you pray for. Yeah. Even like things like, I'll pray.

And then something will just happen. Like even even something so small. I'm like, hey, God, I need, I need some help. I need, I need some clarity. And then things will taste different. I remember like, I remember like a small period of time where I was like praying and like alcohol started to taste different to me. Cool. It was like, it started to taste bad.

It was so weird. I'm like, this is, it didn't happen prior or after two beers. I was sort of feel like, sorry, like shit. Yeah. But I prayed for that. So it's like, it's like things, just give you signs, signs here. It's a taste different. I'm like, where it's like, it's telling you to stop.

Isn't that weird how. Tell me to stop. That's weird how there's a natural nastiness to alcohol that we have to overcome to start liking it in the first place. But it's funny, but it's true. True. It's true. It's funny how even with smoking, I remember forcing myself to like that when I was a kid, you know. I'm trying to look cool.

I'm trying to look cool right now. It's not working, though. But then you can't stop once you get yourself wrapped up in that thing you didn't like. And then so crazy to me that, that's miraculous that you're able to taste that. And to be. So, so bizarre. So, so bizarre. Or I'm a friend believer that when you want to make a change, the reason why people don't change is because when you want to make a change, things in your life start to fall apart.

Because you start to approach things head on. So when you try to fix something, it's not. broken. Everything seems like it's going wrong, but you got to fix it. You know, it's just, it's just crazy how that works at the moment. Like, you want to change things start to get really rocky. So to go full circle with, with the record, I'm just kind of tie in, uh, the certain years of your life so people get the full perspective of, of the era in your life and also that, like, record. Um, and, and to wrap it up, um, like, what, what were you thinking and feeling when, like, you started to hear the songs back? Like, you got, like, you're, like, you're,

when you're tracking it and it's done, you know, like sitting back and like hearing it, like, and you hear, I'm so sick or like Cassie. Like, were you thinking anything? Were you feeling something? Would you get like a reaction? What, what's going on there? well I probably cried I can I can I probably cried when I heard it it's it's it's it's an interesting like a crazy experience to have

hear something in your head and then have it come out and uh in in the air I don't know like it like music you hear something in your head and then it's coming out of a speaker like you heard it or

better than you thought or or something like a variation of it that's just just mystical. It's crazy that we're able to do that. I mean, we don't think about it too much, maybe, but the fact, because I don't understand how audio really works.

I mean, I'm not scientific about it, but the fact that we can hear something that was in my head in the air, it's like wild. It's a weird miracle, if you think about it too hard, it becomes like that. Yeah, yeah.

So it felt good. Like, do you get it, You get it in like, oh, this might connect with people, or it just, or it just felt good. Well, and what I want to do when I write music is do something that I can, that I can be, believe in myself. And if that's cool, then I'm thankful I got to do it. And if other people like it, that's great. And in the stewarding of, like that stewarding idea of what we offer up, like,

I offer up to God and be like, can you do something with this? Here's the song. Here's this opportunity. Here's this phone call. I don't know. Whatever. And end up trusting Howard Benson because we got a relationship with him after he did POD's first album, I think.

So sick. Yeah. And we got in a relationship with him. And it was really pivotal, I guess, for us. And just. It's still a journey with Howard. Like I think we just texted the other day about me being in L.A. and getting to hang out with him.

But our relationships have been, have just been so cool, like so important. I think it continues to be like that when you trust that this was important and supposed to be. I guess Howard's supposed to have some influence on this. And then we let a lot of things go artistically because he thought this is, Nobody cares about that. This is what people want to hear. And for him, it is about people. It is about the radio.

It is about what makes a record label happy. For us, it's not. So he's the one that's going to be the one to say those things. And because we're trusting that he was brought into us, into our lives, you know, intentionally, that we're supposed to be changed by him. And so long as there's like these core values that aren't, I don't have to sing anything, I don't mean. Like him taking Rachel's name out of the song,

sad to me but um i knew i was going to sing it the way i wanted the live shows mine you know yeah that's howard yeah so it's been cool awesome hey zach how we're doing with time we're good okay i were i just looked down and we're an hour 20 that that she just flew by my halfway through so um so after a fly leaf you you remained creative and a very like consistent level you went on to um you have your solo record life screams would top the uh hard rock charts that's exciting and then you just started to you just started to come out with books yeah so if people don't know uh you had three books yeah how do you write a book talk too much no yeah I don't think you talk too much yeah you talk too much just write

down what you were saying and you ended up with a bunch of pages. But like the thing is, I was not wanting to write a book. I thought the same thing. I thought, you know, I couldn't write a book. I love reading. I've always loved reading. And I was am mystified by the fact that you could write that many pages and they all go together. And like, it makes sense.

And my husband actually was the one that suggested I write a book because after I left Fly Leaf, I got, I had like 7,000 emails from people. Oh, yeah. What are you like? Is there any answer in some of those? emails, but they had the same questions. A lot of them had the same questions about suicide, about God, about atheism, about, you know, all these similar subjects.

And so I would write somebody back, and it would take me an hour. And Josh was like, you can't do this. You just write a book. And so. Like, here's my life story. So then I wrote, I know. Via email. I also didn't know about word count.

Like I didn't know. I thought, oh, so I'll write this many pages. And I didn't know. like double spaced and like all this thing. And I know, so I wrote like accidentally wrote three books in it in like a one book like space. But, um. Really?

Well, it was kind of like that. Wow. There was a lot of stuff I had to like take out and focus on this, just this one thing. The one thing. You got to focus. And so whenever, you know, again with the stewardship thing, is this something that you want to use? God, dear.

And so we had a friend who was a friend with somebody. who asked them about Baker books and Yates and Yates is my lawyer, my agent. And he connected us with Baker Books. And they signed us for three books. They signed me for three books. Oh, shit. And I was really didn't want to necessarily do three books. But when I had all this writing, they were like, this is way too much for a book.

This is like, I thought it was like, well, it was only 200 pages, you know, but it was like, like the font was small. It was like single spaced and like it was like the way I didn't know about word count. So it was like so many words. So then I did the three books and I thought, well, I'll write one book about how I came to know God about my younger years, the reason. And then I'll write a book about the things that God brought me through in my romantic life, which almost derailed me after I became a Christian and almost took my life again. and then I'll write one about stewarding your gifts and the path to becoming like being in a rock band and giving those things to God.

And so that's the return is about coming to God. The mystery is about romance and how like your real love is Christ always is God. Everything we're always seeking in this life is really him in all these different forms. Yeah. And then the last book is just about stewarding. all your gifts.

Nice. Yeah. So how is it like, I mean, how is it? And I hear it comes myself as questions coming out now. So how is it writing a book? Was it, compare it to writing like being involved with albums and records and music. What's like the main difference? I started an anonymous blog.

Oh yeah, you had a blog. I just did an anonymous blog so I could. could just write as if anybody would read it, but not know it was me, so I could just write freely. That's a good idea. And yet, it made me right. It made me be able to write freely, whatever I wanted to write. Because it was also out there, so other people could read it if they wanted. Not many people read it.

Maybe like two people. But in my mind, I'm writing for someone, and I'm writing with no boundaries. just big, I'm changing names and all the stuff, but it made it easy to just write whatever I wanted to. And then some things I would feel the light lit up the page. And I would be like, that's probably important. I'll keep that, you know. And then I thought, the original title of the first book was a passerby's fly leaf moments. Fly leaf means a moment of clarity after the story's over. Yeah, so it's something related to the first and last page, correct?

Yeah, it's a blank page in the front and back of a book. Okay. So the moment of clarity before you start a story, the moment of clarity after it's over. So I was... I'm not from you. Yeah. Cool. Nice.

So... It makes sense. If when you start a book, there's a clarity to it and you finish it. There is a moment of clarity in it. I didn't realize that until like... I hear you say, oh yeah, there is like a clarity to it. It's crazy. So that blank page in the front of the book is the fly leaf.

And the blank page in the back. is the fly leaf. Wow. And it holds the story. So that's what fly leaf means. A fly leaf means. It's not flying leaves. A lot of people think it's flying leaves.

Oh, flying leaves. It's cool. It's cool band names. It's a fly leaf. Yeah, so I was going to call the book A Passerby's Fly Leaf Moments. It's just some random person's moment when their perspective shifted.

One season ended, then it was beginning in your perspective. I was, so I dropped myself into those moments, and I just said, what do I see, feel here, think, what is this moment? And I put myself in those moments, when did my perspectives change? And you can go in your life, and those things are very pivotal. You can tell. Like, they're very emotional generally, and they change you. So you can go into those moments pretty easy, probably.

And so I wrote about those moments in the book. It seemed like it was very like moment to moment. And I was like, yeah, I first again, I started listening. I just pressed up. I'm like, okay, I'm going to like revisit this when I'm ready to take in this kind of life story. Yeah. I remember, like I said, when I first started doing music, we sat down with all these record label people. They sat at the table and they started talking about.

It was like four people, huh? Yeah, a big long table. And they're all talking about. Survivor the show on TV. Hey y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old.

You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.cair.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. Okay. And I was like, what are they doing? Like, and they're literally talking about this forever.

And I'm like, this is weird. Like, what are they talking about? They're not even talking about themselves or anything that means anything. Their whole conversation was about a TV show. And it continued to be that way. That was weird to me. I went to California. I went to New York.

And everybody just talked about nothing all the time. So much talking about nothing. And it was exhausting to me. And so then I get used to this. I learn how to do this. Whatever. it's exhausting and finally you know I get to talk real talk with people who will whatever then we go to Rwanda in Africa to we went to the regular label was forcing us to tour through Christmas like

a fourth Christmas in a row and we were mad about it and I was like we're not going to just make you money like this isn't just about you if we're going to make money we're going to do a charity EP, you're going to put it out. Because what happened was we were like, we want to go home for Christmas, and then our lawyer called us and they're like, if you go home, they're going to pull your record. You're going to violating your contract. You have

to tour, blah, blah, blah. So it's like, okay, well, then you're going to put an album out that's for charity. And so I picked the charity, which was World Vision. And I didn't know if they were they were, so we have music as a weapon EP that was for charity originally. And and I was like, well, I don't know.

if they're legit. So like can we go see what you do? And so they're like, yeah, we'll fly you to Rwanda and Africa and show you some stuff we did and we're there. So the whole band flies for Rwanda. Wow. Yeah. And while we're there, they're talking about the genocide that happened in the 90s. And like, I didn't even know about this.

It was heavy, intense, right? Terrible, terrible things. And we sit down and talk with them and we're starting to talk about nothing in the beginning. And these people are just staring at us like, what are you talking about? they're just like is this how americans talk like this is like i could just feel it from them and then they would then when we're done they would get into the deepest heaviest darkest thing and

i was like oh your favorite well it was interesting because by that time i had gotten used to this dynamic right of just how we talk to people and i could see this was uncomfortable for our guys for our people and it was uncomfortable and it was uncomfortable comfortable the other way. And I was like, that's because their daily is heavy. You know, their daily is substance. They have substance. Like, even though they

have nothing, these kids don't have anything. They play with rocks and sticks and they're the happiest kids. Our kids are miserable in America and we have everything and they don't have nothing and they're just so happy. They're just dancing and singing and like playing, making up games

and like, so happy. And I don't even, it's hard to find kids. like that in America that are just happy to just hang out most of their parents a lot of their parents have died from AIDS they're orphans they're just assimilating in the village you know just thankful for any any food or water they get and I'm like so thankful we get to be there and experience this but that dynamic of getting to the heavy because that's their normal versus the surface which is like just talking about nothing is our culture it's normal and for me, like I now understand that that everybody has their own capacity according to where they came from

and it's really important to appreciate where people are and not to judge anyone, whether they have this depth. It's not necessarily better. There's things about it that are better, but there's also this lightness, you know, of having lived a life that didn't have to go through that. Life doesn't have to be like that all the time. And that's something maybe I needed to learn that it can be light, that it can be, it doesn't have to be drama all the time. Right? And like even in movies, like I learned this with writing scripts. You know, there's a drama, then you need comic relief. And then you need drama, comic relief.

Like, that's how we deal with life too. You know, we need that. It's something to be funny. You need to draw back and have a cup of tea. We need to like relax and watch a dumb movie. Well, you and your band is everyone else's. Cup of tea. Right?

Oh, no, I guess so. Maybe for you. You're right. Actually, no. Now, it's kind of hitting me right now. Yeah, it both is either music is either an escape or it puts you into like a certain like emotional state. Hmm. I guess I just use it as like a escape.

But naturally no, it actually does put you into a heavy state sometimes too. That makes sense. My husband, he does not care about lyrics at all. He doesn't listen to it. them he's like all about the guitar and sometimes I'm like this dude bringing the daughters to the slaughter I'm like what are you listening to like Iron Maiden whatever it sounds good he's like I don't know they said that look at listen to the guitar I'm like it's an escape for him for me I'm like trying to contemplate life mysteries I'm like what that is this so you're right you know it's

funny but recently you know there are seasons when it's time to just be light and be and not be dramatic and not be into all that, you know. I appreciate that now, and I don't judge it, and I think it has its place, and it's very important. I love, I think fun can be a weapon, too. Yeah. Fun is a beautiful weapon to overcome. Like, you know, if you've seen that movie, Rise of the Guardians,

it's got, it's like a computer animated movie, it's got Jack Frost in it and Santa Claus and Easter Bunny, and they're all, like, trying to fight. Yeah, there it is. Trying to fight evil. Nice. Well, fun is a weapon to defeat like nightmares. In a movie, it's pretty deep, I think.

All right. My kids like it. I like it. So before you and your husband, Josh, had Jack, you had a pregnancy prior, right? So I was curious what, because you were talking about it and things kind of went over my head. I'm like, what is you talking about? So what is it? What is a molar pregnancy?

Sperm fertilizes an empty egg with no genetic information. Okay. And the information in the sperm that's supposed to create this life and connect with the information in the egg is not, it just keeps trying to find that connection and it turns into a mass that turns into a cancer. And it will just keep growing and growing and it can spread to your lungs and your brain and you die.

It's like really fast. It's very rare. It's rare. Okay. I was wondering if it was common. That was going to be my... No. It's very rare.

And my form was... There's no... No baby is formed. It's just... The cells that would have turned into a child actually just keeps multiplying into a cancerous mass. Wow. Yeah.

And then you got... And you got some news but didn't. They said they had to do blood work, right? Yeah. Yeah. I knew I was pregnant for... About 10 weeks? Yeah.

Before I realized it was a molar pregnancy. It was hard to believe them, too, because I was such a woman of faith. I was like, what will happen? I guess it again. She was like, you need to come get this removed right now. I was like, what if I just wait? And then wait until after Thanksgiving. Yeah.

She was like, yeah, because a lot of women bleed because it makes you bleed. And it will kill you. Yes. Okay. She said, so wait until after Thanksgiving because we'll have more blood because people donate. I'm like, okay, case you hemorrhaging, you need a blood transfusion. That's a good idea. We'll wait.

I'm like, oh. Okay. Wow. Let me think about it. It was weird. It was a strange experience. I mean, that's trauma in itself. It was a weird experience.

Wow. Yeah, I was, but also it taught me, well, I never trusted doctors. Like, I'm a very natural, hippie kind of person. And I had to trust this lady. I had been paying attention to everything I put in my mouth when I found out I was pregnant. I was like, everything I ate. I was like, oh, the baby's eating this too.

You know, like I'm just being really careful. And then she gives me this money. medication, it says, do not take if you're pregnant all over the package because it was getting me ready to go through the surgery. And it was such a grieving moment. And when after it was all done, I was like, man, I was like, what was that about, you know? And I ended up having to go because your numbers, HCG hormone is the hormone that it's the human hormone. So it's like wildly gigantic if you have a molar pregnancy. The numbers, they

test it in your blood. And you have to get that number to go down to zero. And if you get pregnant before, the number goes down to zero, the mole could come back and take over the pregnancy. And you can go through it all again.

So you can't get pregnant, and they have to make sure that you're getting tested every week to see if the numbers are going down. So it's not spreading again or coming back somehow. So I had to go to like a cancer ward for them to like check the numbers every week. And it was while being among people who were facing that they could die. Because they were so loving.

They were living every moment to love every person who walked in those doors. The nurses, the doctors, the patients in the waiting room. It was really beautiful. And I, I, I, that hit me the most was that. we are all, we never know if we're going to die any day. And we are all getting one moment with the person in front of us, right? And it should be, what if this is my last moment with this person, what if they died when they walked out of their room or I did?

You know, what did I do with that moment? You know, it doesn't have to be that you have cancer. Yeah. You know, what's the, would you happen to know, like the, the success rate on that? From molar pregnancies? Yeah. Oh, wow.

No. But the doctor who did the surgery on me said that three of her, she'd only done three in her whole career, and the three all had to go to chemo. And so she had never done one that was completely successful without having chemotherapy. And mine was successful. First, her first successful one that I didn't have.

to go to chemo. So thank God. Wow. Well, that's a blessing. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. And so now I learned from, so now I learned from you is, so now going to your first child, Jack, you're so when you're, it's kind of obvious, but not. It was, oh, when you said it was, oh, shit, like, you're being pregnant will affect your voice. Yeah. I was, I was like, wow, I never, I never, I was, I was like, well, I even thought about that. Yeah, it's weird. You can't breathe very well either when you're a certain, a certain pregnant month. Yeah.

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, you know, the singer for the guitarist for Skillet, the wife, husband and wife in Skillet, the guitarist, the bass player is the husband and John and Corey is the guitarist. And when she got pregnant, her hormones changed her voice and she wasn't able to sing without like this tremble, tremble in her voice. from then on. Oh, my goodness. And so she lost her ability to sing.

Oh, my goodness. Yeah. It was really. So sad. Yeah, she's, she's so passionate, too. She's such an amazing, hearted person.

And now their drummer sings. And they got Jen Ledger, and she's got her own band, too. That's why that happened. Before that, she sang before she got pregnant. Oh, my God. So that's a extreme case. Well, it was a hormonal change that caused that.

Yes, it changes, yeah. Predacy of hormones affect your voice is what I had. I'm like, oh, yeah. I'm sorry. It's okay. You're doing great. I'm a guy. Yeah.

So I'm asking a question. I'm trying to understand. Yeah, I appreciate you wanting to understand. So wrapping up here, there is a, so it seems like you and your brother had this connection with Nirvana. Yeah. Right. I think, uh, was it your mom or your grandma that bought your brother like the never mind? It was my mom.

Yeah. She brought him to the famous trees concert in Dallas. I was like, you said deep element. I'm like, deep element. What does that venue? Trees. In Dallas. Yeah. There was a famous concert. I think it was a camera. Was it the one where he... Was that when they were like kind of fighting with the security of style? He was there. I punched him in the head. That's sick. Yeah. And I don't know if he got to see that. part but my my mom wow is that it dude you brought it yeah that's it so i remember watching it so

your mom and your brother were there my mom and my brother and this was right so never mind was out but but the tour was already booked so so they already blew up yeah i was 10 years old wait yeah i was 10 years old 10 19 yeah because his birthday was yeah that's sick yeah he said mom made me leave before they trust the stage. Oh, so he didn't get to see this part. So sick, dude. What is, I wanted to ask you,

what is it about Nirvana? What is it? Their humility. Kirk Cobain was the anti-rock star. And my mom loved him because he cared about women when she saw him play. He said, if I see another guy,

another girl I'm going to make you listen to feedback for the next two hours. Wow. And my mom really loved that he said that. And that's why she bought my brother the tape or whatever. And so, yeah. And, yeah, dude, that's terrible. Feel good. But also, I loved that they looked like we grew up with clothes from the first store.

We got made fun of for that. And then all of a sudden, Nirvana made it cool. to have clothes from the thrift store. And that I didn't have to feel like I actually could embrace who I was, that I was naturally, like, I was like, like it was organic for me. I was grunge organically. Yeah. You know, we had to live in our car sometimes, and we didn't have to make up a story or go, you know, figure out an identity. It was like, he was identifying with me.

Wow. And I had seen, you know, a lot of substance abuse around me in my life, too. And if I had been able to get my hands on heroin because it was legendary for him to have died that way, I would have done that. Thank God I didn't. And I was just wanted, it was self-destructive because the thing about what Kirk Cobain taught me was that this, mocking society for its calling out its BS kind of like, you know, this is a messed up place and you guys are all like, and then in that despair of there not being anyone who's not a hypocrite and everybody's messed up and in that despair you make this kind of emotional music

that kind of mocks it and embraces it but also laughs at it and you, but you're actually facing the fact the fact that it's messed up and um i found it heroic when he took his life in my mind because he was saying which is so interesting because now that i'm a christian i see this is what christ did is actually what i what i what i laid over in my mind that was good about him saying the world's not worthy of the love that it should have in it like it doesn't have love in it like if i want give something good it will just destroy it right and i'd rather be i'd rather just like get out of this place and to me that that message was what i took away from his death was like i had everything the world had to offer and it was worthless because what really matters wasn't in my mind because i knew

he cared about people nobody cared about and i felt like one of those people and now he's like this rock star and I'm like I from some reason in my mind I could understand him wanting to like throw it away because it was what really matters wasn't in the fame and wasn't in the rock stardom and that sorrow I understood that sorrow about life in general and so what I understood about Christ

is that Christ came and identified the same way with all of the prostitutes. And, you know, like, to me, like, there was a lot of people in the sex industry around me when I was growing up that, that took care of each other in some kind of way. You know, like, we struggled together in that place where we were all trying to figure out how to feed our kids and how to, you know, how to pay our bills. and my mom would take care of girls who needed help, you know, and stuff like that, whatever. And it was when I read that in the Bible that Jesus hung out with prostitutes, and, like, he was accused by the religious people of, like, hanging out with sinners. And, like, to me, like, I was, like, everything I loved about Kirk Cobain was in Christ. Wow.

You know, it was like, you actually, in his death of laying his life down, he had the ability to walk on water and heal people and capture a crowd with like his wisdom and he didn't and they wanted him to be king and he was like that's not my kingdom is not like the world if you want to be the greatest you have to be the servant of all and so like he like literally wore like was like a homeless wanderer and uh and kirkobain identified that way even though he had the heights you know he identified with the homeless you know and I was like to me it was crazy to see that and find that in Christ that actually that's what I loved and Kirk Cabrame was how he looked like Jesus wow one in one one in one ban once in a once in a lifetime ban yeah

thank you for sharing that we we got two rapid-fire questions sorry uh Since you've been playing with the band for a couple years now, right? Are you writing anything? Are you thinking about it? Too soon? I'm trying to be very present and thankful for what's in front of me. And again, with the concept that I've already described about stewardship, we'll just see where we go.

Okay. And try to be really good relationally with each other and try to be healthy with our families. and if we can do that, then we'll see what happens. Okay. You know. Cool. Well, just from an outsider,

someone brand spanking you coming in, I was just, I could see the chemistry. Yeah. So when the four of you play music, it's still there, like you guys never stopped. So it was really nice to see.

Thanks. One more question. I end every podcast, the same. What are three albums that have influenced you? Three albums? Mm-hmm. Oh, definitely never.

I would say three Nirvana albums. Oh, yeah. No, no wrong answer. I would say, never mind, bleach and in a year to row. Oh, you know, straight up. No. Okay. So is that much of impact for you?

Also, injustice for all. My Talica is injustice for all. And Far Beyond Driven was probably influential in my screaming and screaming. That's where that came from. So first you didn't like Pantera, but then you heard shedding skin. You're like, I get it now. Right. Yeah.

Yeah, I had to read the lyrics, which are very foul, but also very familiar. Like, oh, it sounds like stuff I are in my house, you know, when I was growing up. Yeah, it's interesting because those albums are things, well, I might listen to Nirvana now, but I can't listen to Pantera because it's not, besides that I have three boys that I don't want to listen to that music. My oldest is learning, though. He's learning Pantera. He's really good on the kids. guitar. But I have to ask him to turn it off sometimes because some of it is just really not helpful

for my emotional health and my emotional state and puts me back in a place I don't want to go to. Wow. Yeah, so right now I don't listen to that stuff, but it is, it was influential in how I wrote music in the beginning for sure. Wow. Okay, let's wrap this up. Um, when, do you still do the reason as your daily prayer? Because once your book stopped, you, you, you wanted to, this is my daily prayer. What? What? What? What? What? What? Like, so, like, he's giving me another day. Yeah. I was like, oh, do you still do like that daily prayer? Why? Why, yeah, I've talked to God every day. In the morning, as soon as I wake up, right before I fall asleep, of course, I'm talking to God. Wow.

I feel like you think it's interesting because we don't know when we're doing when we go to sleep. It could be dying. We don't know. When we wake up, we're like, oh, I woke up. Why? I don't know how I woke up. So talking to God makes sense to me in those moments. Nice.

So are you just free flowing? Yeah. I mean, well, as an Orthodox Christian, we do have prayers that we pray. but and my husband actually loves that so much because he has a hard time praying from his heart

like just like it feels very strange sometimes for him to do that so he he does the prayers and that helps him and so I do that with him but I love just talking like he's my dad beautiful

anything that we we should bring up you're on on tour now anything in the future that that you want out there I don't know I'm just thankful to hang out with you and talk to you about all this stuff, whatever you want.

It's just want to, you know, help support what you're doing. Cool. Thank you. I mean, you're supporting literally right this moment. Thank you. You are supporting my dream of doing this for the rest of my life. So, thank you for that. Well, you're really good at it.

Thank you. It's really life-giving. Cool. I appreciate it. You're very honest, and that's hard to find. Appreciate that. Well, check out FlyLeaf, Instagram, on tour now. see what God brings.

Yeah. Lacey, thank you for your time. It was an absolute pleasure. It was great talking to. Thank you too. All right, everyone, thank you. Thank you.

Thank you.