Garza Podcast - 25: Michael "Morgoth Beatz" Montoya | WINDS OF PLAGUE

Episode Date: August 16, 2021

Michael Montoya AKA Morgoth Beatz is a producer and guitar player for Winds of Plague. Artists he has worked with include Travis Barker, Lil Xan, Bones, Juice WRLD and many others. We talk about if the guitar is dead, where metal is going, and much more. SPONSORS: Click this link to purchase from Sweetwater & help support the podcast: imp.i114863.net/rnrmVB

Our following guest is a producer and current guitar player for one to plague. He's produced and worked with artists such as Travis Barker, Little Zan, Bones, Juice World, but also he loves death metal, and he's been known to not be afraid of combining the genres while producing new artists. As always, I hope you enjoy this conversation. Please welcome Michael Montoya, aka More Goth Beats. So basically I need to start at TikTok. You should, yeah, you should redirect your YouTube. like video just parts of like interviews and stuff you have that you're like oh let's you can say like

you know like with davy or whatever when you talk to him about playing with corn live or whatever just like yeah take like 30 seconds of it or whatever and post it on tic-tok and just do that like once or twice a day you know by usually you have a lot of content that probably would you know because there's different sides of ticot there's like metal tic-tok so really yeah like there's like like any sort of community of like anything is on that app basically now. Wow. So if you're into cooking, if you're into painting, if you're into hyperpop, if you're into pop punk, whatever, like there's a whole like world that's off of it on TikTok.

It's pretty crazy. Wow. Yeah, the app has been around long enough to worry. I mean, pretty much every community and culture is pretty much probably on there, correct? Yeah, yeah, basically. Or it's basically, it started as like, you know, a kind of dance like, or, you know, or, oriented app called Musically and then it just like snowballed into like everything It was musically first huh?

Mm-hmm Wow yeah great Wasn't the same app? Same company same company same company but yeah it's the same app like musically turned into TikTok Like they changed the name and like I see it's the same thing That happened quick I remember seeing people post like on this musically thing And like I don't know where TikTok just fucking exploded Yeah it was the same yeah that's the same yeah

It was the same thing. Wow. Dude, do you want, are we starting? We started about five years ago. We already started. All right, cool.

Michael, thank you for being here, man. Thank you. Honor, dude. I know you for a long time, so it's really cool to see you. Going from

guitar lessons here over a decade ago, probably, to now you're killing it. It's awesome, man. I'm proud of you. Dude,

thanks, man. I appreciate it. It's awesome. Yeah, I did get guitar lessons. In this room. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, it's because like,

yeah, was funny we were talking about it where like I just bought a guitar cab off Mark, which was like strategic like I was thinking about I was like I kind of did that because I needed about I needed a guitar cab. But I was like I was like oh I might as well meet Mark and Garza because I was like super into your band. So I was like I was like I get a cab and I get a go meet. It's the suicide sounds cab. I was like sure. Wow. Did you know that it was like the cleansing cab? No I didn't know. I didn't know until you guys told me you guys told I think you did tell me. I think you did tell me actually. Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy. We were just talking outside, I guess, yeah, so you,

you bought those cabs. I fully forgot until right now you told me, and I'm going to buy those cabs back. Yeah, definitely. Those cows are on their first record, dude. Yeah, it's crazy. Damn, I would love to have those cabs back. Yeah, I just have one. I just have a half cab of it. Ony is one. Yeah, I have one. Dude, sick. Yeah, that's so funny. Wow. So you're from New Mexico, right? Yeah, so I grew up like first in like Oceanside Vista area. Okay. So like not that far from here, like North County, San Diego. Yeah. Um, and all my family's from New Mexico. I see. So when I was like, when I was like 12, I moved to Taos, which is like a small town in northern New Mexico, like by Colorado. Yeah. Like 5,000 people small. Um, that's a pretty small town. So yeah, like I came from, you know,

SoCal to Touse. I don't know why I know that. So then I moved back to L.A. Like that was when I think I met you like within like a few months of me living here. No, I met you. I met you originally when I was like 16. You guys were on tour with Nile. And there was an off.

There was an off day that Nile didn't play in Albuquerque where it was at the compound. And I remember the cleansing. I think the cleansing had just came out. Yeah. Yeah, the cleansing had just came out. So, like, me and all my friends who were in high school, were, like, crazy about it. And, yeah, I met, like, you, Mark, Mitch, you know, like, all y'all.

Like, I think we, like, smoked weed and shit. Of course. Of course. And maybe I just sat back and washed. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. I definitely remember Mitch, like, smoking and thinking we were in Texas. It was funny.

Of course. Yeah. That place is called The Compound. Yeah, the Compound. We always talk about that venue. I'm always like, what was that? venue called yeah the compound wow it's a pretty cool spot too yeah you know it was uh played a lot of early shows there yeah my my my high school mashi deathcore bands and all that was pretty funny yeah yeah it was

funny living in new mexico while uh i had like moved there when i knew of like the scene going on here because i like just got into hardcore and like into heavier forms of music and and stuff like around that time period where I was like oh Southern California has like such a cool scene and then I just like had to leave and go to New Mexico and then so as soon as I like graduated I like moved back I was like going back

to the scene. Yeah you never love you were always in the scene yeah totally well it was just like after I think right after I met you was when I started Goliath yeah and uh well like me and my like friends you know we started Goliath and then yeah I did that for a while

and then I got into Winds of Plague and that was essentially, you know, the, that story was just, because remember we saw, like with Glythe, we saw you guys on tour like a couple times randomly. We were in like New Orleans at the same time. Yeah. Pretty funny. It was funny. Oh, didn't you guys, we were at an off day, right? We were at like a restaurant. Yeah. Okay, we were on mushrooms. Yeah, I remember that. And like, I was, I wanted to say howdy is so bad, but I was in another dimension. I think we did. We sat at the same table for a while, I think.

Something, yeah. Yeah. We took a picture, like, on the table. Like, you guys, like, laid on the table and stuff. It was funny. Yeah. Yeah. It was, like, like, a mushroom tea.

And I was, like, not, you know, when you're like, okay, I don't want to talk to anybody. Dude, that was so funny. Sorry about that. I'm like, dude, it's like an old friend right there. I should go up there and hug him. I can't even process, like, life, you know? Sorry about that. No, it sucks.

I don't even remember that that way. I remember just being so funny. that we were in the same and then we hung out i think we hung out that night too like on bourbon street for like a while yeah we guys on tour yeah we were uh we were on tour we were going to record an ep at uh audio hammer mm dope that's awesome yeah it was cool um but yeah uh so that was funny and then it was around i think that time when uh that was when i first started like making music like john and stuff and then that was like how I did the wins thing

how did you get in touch with Andrew Glover Oh uh I've just met him at a show And I was in recording school So yeah Andrew had a home studio And you know I like

I liked some of like the local bands and stuff He had like produced and I was a fan of Winds a Plague too You know before Yeah of course You know before I joined the band of course But uh So I ended up just working with Andrew at a studio, you know, and that was how I like met John and Art and all them was kind of through that. Yeah.

And, you know, I guess when the time just kind of came when the Knicks didn't want to do it anymore, me and John and Art and Elena and Davy, I think Davy mentioned it, but we had started a new band that we were messing around with that was kind of like, Mashi, Rob Zombie kind of vibe or something. But that just kind of turned into just playing for winds of plague because you know, why I start a new band when

you know, that band already has like a legacy and all that. Of course. So, yeah. Yeah, it was pretty natural, you know. Like, it worked out. Seems like you left a good oppression on the guys.

Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I know because me and John had probably been working on music that he had like you know it was it was convenient it was super convenient you know just kind of it was one of those things where it kind of made me made me realize like manifesting things you know is like super real that you can uh because i had like i don't know if you ever do this but sometimes like when i'll listen to music or if i'm like skating somewhere like listening to music

or something like i like i like the song i'll like picture myself playing it like in front of people or something yeah same same same Yeah, it's just one of those things. So I would, like, picture myself playing for, like, winds of plague, like, when I hear songs and stuff, just, like, for fun. Yeah, that's awesome. And then it just kind of, like, that type of stuff can happen, you know, if you, like, put a lot of attention into something and you're, like, smart about the way you maneuver, you know, it can, yeah, you can really manifest stuff. Yeah, in a way you were innocently visualizing something that would eventually manifest crazy. Yeah, super crazy.

It's like, it's definitely not one of those things where some people think of it as, oh, you know, you just kind of wish and then it happens. It's like a combo of, you know, like, will and like work too. You have to like work for it. The work is like the very important key part, right? Yeah. It was, it was. And also it worked, because I was ready for like that position because I had grinded super hard with my first band, you know, like with Goliath's trying to like make that happen. Yeah.

Because obviously, you know, ideally people like would like it if their first band or your project that's like your baby blows up. And kind of like what happened with you, you know, like suicide. Yeah. That's the ideal like way to blow up as a band in music. But if it doesn't work out that way, you know, sometimes you got to be realistic about it and just take the best path, you know, after that point. So it was just like, yeah, like playing for Winds of Plague would be sick. Like even though it's not like my band I originally started, but still a band I'm a fan of. and I like the music a lot.

So, you know, that worked out really well. And then at that time, I was when I started, like, producing for, like, underground rappers and stuff like that, too. How did that, okay, back up a little bit. How did that process really start? Like, at what point were you, okay, I'm going to start making beats and producing beats? Like, where did I come into the picture?

Because, I mean, was that you already in Wednesday of play? Was that around, like, the same time period? Yeah, so I had started making beats a little before that. Okay. A lot of my friends growing up in high school were, at least a few of my best friends were like producers. So like my friend John, who like I still live with now, you know, he is like a hip-hop producer. And my other friend Gabe, who, you met Gabe a couple of times, he passed away. But yeah, he was a hip-hop producer.

And I would like play guitar on their beats and stuff like that, you know. and I already had a background in engineering like we all engineered and stuff so just being around that like environment you know I was like oh I can make beats too and when I first started making beats I've always had like a weird inkling of like I just want to make like everything more metal

you know in the world of course the way like metal oclips is as the show is like the way I wish like the world was you know like everything is just as metal as possible Fuck yeah man So even like going into Like making beats I was like oh I'm gonna

You know mix Like make it Them really dark and metal influenced So I started doing that And luckily around that time is when The first like early SoundCloud rap stuff Which is basically like alternative kids

Making hip hop music So a lot of the early Hip hop like artists I worked with Like Oman 13 is one Bones is one like that I'm known for it because Bones kind of pioneered like what's called like Trap Metal and what's called like Emo Rap and uh he kind of pioneered that stuff so I got to produce for him and I was like a big fan of his yeah but it happened and so interesting enough the the first like real placement I would say I had like that is something that people heard you know

and that was like kind of opened my eyes really like wide to like being like I I should take this seriously was this song with Oman 13 that he's from this area, like Riverside area. Oh, wow. He used to play in a band that I got open for Goliath like back in the day, like when we would play like, you know, the house shows and stuff like that out in the air. So he became like a, you know, like a popular underground hip-hop artist and we sampled a Goliath song and basically just made this super metal trap version of it because he was like a. a kid coming from like at the scene, you know, into making hip hop, which there's a lot of crossover.

Like a lot of kids who were making in bands and stuff like that ended up becoming these like alternative rap artists. So like rap was getting more and more metal. And because I've always been a fan, like skateboarding and stuff growing up, you know, you hear a lot of underground hip hop and you hear a lot of metal and hardcore. So that's kind of where my, and my dad is a, you know, My dad's like a blues, like classic rock guy. You know, you've met my parents a few times. So, like, I grew up, like, with Sabbath and all that kind of stuff. Yeah.

But my older brother was into hip hop and stuff. So I never, it wasn't like, it was super strategic since I was a kid. I was like, oh, I'm going to be a hip hop producer. It's just the opportunity presented itself. And I was like, yeah, like, I'm going to follow the path that's working, you know. Wow. So, so the trap metal thing, like, Like that worked out people like that.

So I just kept rolling with that. And then, yeah, man, I don't know. It just kind of snowballed. Like, it just became luck. I was just kind of in the right spot at the right time. You know, like I got to work with a bunch of artists that were blowing up at the time. So it worked out, you know. Yeah.

Now it's cool. Like, I like producing multiple genres of music. I didn't, I was getting bored of just doing like one thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you, you were really good. understanding the trend and then getting and seeing where that's going to be in two years and then

getting ahead of that curve you know yeah man I just how did you do that I've just had a weird what the fuck I've had a weird obsession with uh just I don't know I just kind of like we're talking about Finn like you know Finn McKenzie from the punk rock NBA who we've known for a really long time to then yeah shout to Finn uh me and him were just really nerdy about this kind of stuff so we would just always talk to each other about it like what's happening what's going to be next and stuff. Wow.

Because music kind of works very cyclically you know like you can predict patterns based on what's happened before and I just had all these weird theories in my head that I was like okay so

since I got a odd future like I think odd future and like Wayne and all them kind of being the first like dudes to bring like skating into hip hop and what comes with skate culture is the like punk and hardcore element. So odd future had like trash talk like part of their group. So I was like oh this is like a sign of like these two worlds merging. And then that just dramatically like kept going in that direction where it was like oh now there's like these like scene kids who are making like this alternative rap kind of music basically. And it's like a mix of what you know kids who grew up in the

2010's, their pop music is trap music. So it makes sense that that's like the backdrop for all that kind of music is because that's what everyone knows. Yeah. So it was just like, it went from rappers wanting to look like rock stars and like kind of embodying that like role of like looking like a punk kid being cool, you know, being alternative, being cool. They really like embrace that a lot.

So that was what drew me to it so much is because I love. like alternative music and alternative culture and I want that to like thrive above all else like I'm kind of indifferent to it being from metal or from pop like anything that's like cool and out there like I support I want to support that so I'm like you know a scene kid too at heart so you know they'll like never go away or like so yeah I want to see the scene kids win of course so you know people like post Malone being like the biggest star in the world and he's just like a scene kid is I think a huge win you know

for us and you know a high tide like lifts all boats type of thing so I think artists like him and like MGK and all them bringing rock music back we that should be you know

strongly encouraged from the rock scene because we've had 10 years of it being not mainstream where it got like too too cool to underground too cool like you can't have

you know it's not going to work if it's only like a cool hipster genre like eventually that'll like fizzle out so um i just support like you know i just supported that fusion of like rappers kind of going in that direction so that's sorry to answer your question yeah that was how that was it was like oh what comes with with people start wearing band shirts and stuff like that they start wanting to sound more like that you know so that's what happened like emo rap took over And then that's been like the popular form of music for like five or six years now, you know, at this point. So it makes sense that kids who grew up, their ears are now like adapted to hearing those kind of melodies and the kind of guitar playing.

Because like alternative singing and like alternative playing is like distinct, you know, before hip hop didn't really have a whole lot of that. It was more, the melodic side was much more from R&B. Yeah. But the last, like, you know, since like 2014 or 15 or so, is when, like, the metal core influenced, you know, came in and, like, the scene influence came in. So, you have some of the biggest artists in the world being, like, scene kids and stuff like that. So it makes sense now that it comes back because really the only thing different they're hearing is, like, realistic drums, you know, versus it being programmed drums. So the riffs are, like, similar, you know, the same kind of thing. Interesting.

So it was just kind of like that. Like it was just like one trend leads to another kind of like a snowball effect. So that was I guessed and that's kind of what happened luckily. Yeah. And I'm not the only like tons of people. Like there's a whole lot of us who like were like, oh yeah, this is what's happening. You know, so. Yeah.

We just kind of like ran with it. Yeah. It probably helped that, you know, people like you and a thing were like openly communicating these trans and things. you know having uh being lucky you know to be surrounded by very smart people and and and and going back and forth with with with smart people dude that that's like the the best thing you can do for yourself is just to like surround yourself with you know like-minded other creative people you know you know just uh people who uh people who uh people who you like obviously but people who you know make you think and stuff like that and fin's just always kind of been that

like for me you know he's always been like a positive role model so because he's kind of always been like okay like you know when there's like everyone goes through like hardships and stuff like that but fin's always kind of been like they're like buck up you know and just like get your shit done and that's kind of been like a pretty good like motivator for me that's a friend man yeah for sure very very right or fine because you know like i definitely have like struggled because i have you know i have narcolepsy and all that so like that's like a whole thing but uh fin like definitely gave me like a good mindset to you know like not complain and just you know like just work hard and just keep your head down and then eventually you'll get like where you want to go you know

yeah man how did how does that how does that you know how does that get into it if you don't want to but how does that condition affect you um yeah it's interesting uh so it's kind of complex but you know a pretty like quick version of it so i It's like narcolepsy and cataplexy, which is basically like everyone knows narcolepsy is like the sleeping disorder, which that's what it is. Like it's, it gets more complex than it's not as simple as like I just fall asleep randomly. It's just kind of I go into like REM sleep quicker than normal people. So it takes like the average person usually like 30 minutes or so to go into REM sleep, which is deep sleep. Yeah.

It takes narcoleptive people about like a couple minutes. Whoa. So you go into deep. sleep fast and you go deeper into sleep than normal and then you come out of deep sleep just as quick so uh so it's one of those things where it affects like here i get sleep paralysis like a lot a lot and you know there's a whole all sorts of conspiracy theories that come along with sleep paralysis and like shadow people and stuff like that so like that's kind of like a norm for me is uh like sleep paralysis, but that's like the narcolepsy side of it. And then the cataplexy side of it is

basically my brain will go into like sleep paralysis mode randomly when I experience certain strong emotions. So usually it's like laugh. If I like cracking up like uncontrollably, my brain will like enter into the the phase of sleep paralysis. So I could be like walking or like standing up or something and like when you're asleep uh your brain shoots out neurotoxins and your muscles to like paralyze your muscles so you don't act your dreams out so those so my brain will be like oh he's asleep but i'm not so it'll shoot those neurotoxins to my muscle so i can like collapse randomly and i'm awake but uh i'm in like sleep paralysis like states where my mind's awake but i can't move my body basically it's trippy yeah it's super trippy wow i got it like in high

high school around like 16 or 17 or so it took a while to like diagnose because but uh yeah i figured it out you know and could be worse it's like it's not the worst like thing to have you know well i mean fuck i mean i that probably probably helps being around people that know you know you yeah you it's uh i feel like it's actually been like a good motivator for me where because it's one of those things where when I first got diagnosed with it the doctor just kind of painted like a doom and gloom kind of picture of like

of like what your life was going to look like like don't you know don't expect to you're like really limited in what you can do because of this you know like working normal jobs and stuff like that isn't really possible for people in like your condition so they kind of paint like a doom and gloom picture yeah so you know

I just kind of was like I was like I'm not going to like be that person who like craves sympathy like that you know i was like i'm still gonna try and make like what i want my life to be happen and i think because i had that like as like a disadvantage or whatever it kind of like put a little like fire under me a little more to work harder and to try and like work smarter you know to kind of like guide my way uh or figure out this like music industry thing you know

how to actually make music you're living So it, I think, you know, as much of it is a negative, I tried to like turn it into like more of a positive, you know. You turn it into a positive, straight up. Yeah, where there's creative benefits to it too, I feel like, because I don't know if you've ever heard of like your brain works the best creatively in alpha state mode. Heard of that. Yeah, where essentially like right before you fall asleep or right when you wake up. when your brain isn't all the way out of REM sleep, you're going to an alpha kind of state.

And I can live in that state a lot longer. Like if I just fall asleep or if I just wake up, I have like a studio at my house, you know, and I'll just go work while my brain's kind of in that kind of state, you know, where I'm not thinking as critically and ideas just kind of like flow out and I don't overthink it. I can,

kind of like like uh you know i've had it long enough to where i've figured out how to like keep my brain in that kind of like place a little longer to like get more out of it you know and then you see you see like you see interesting things because when you have sleep paralysis hallucination is a big part of it so uh you know i have now that i i know like what's happening um it kind of almost becomes more like a game or something you know where it's like oh i'm having sleep paralysis And, you know, you just kind of like sit back and just wait for it to go away, but trying to enjoy the visuals, you know, like, well, while they're happening. Wow. That's intense, man. Yeah, it's a trippy disorder. But, yeah, you know, it's a lot of people, you know, have it worse than I do.

And, like, there's some examples where, you know, turning around isn't really possible. You know, there's all sorts of crazy horror stories of, like, people getting taken to the morgue and stuff because they have a cataplexy episode and your heart rate goes so. low that like people have thought like other people are dead and then they wake crazy crazy stuff you know but oh wow i don't i don't have it to like that level but yeah it's interesting damn so so you're able to stay in an alpha state longer than maybe your average person so so do you find yourself working right before you go to bed and then right when you wake up is i try to i try to i mean that's not always reality a lot of times i have to work uh whenever where like you know um it's just i try and take advantage of of the moment when i have it and i i know

how to like just kind of through like just like meditating and stuff like that just how to like keep if you have narcolepsy you before you fall asleep um your brain goes into like alpha state so it's one of those things where it's like your battery dies quicker so as soon as my body tells me i'm going to sleep it's like i have like a window of time to like lay down and take a nap or else i'm to start having cataplexy or my body's just going to like turn itself off. Fuck. So, uh, so, uh, so, but I, if like that's starting to happen and I'm like working on music and stuff like that, that's usually the sweet spot to where I'm like, okay, I'm gonna try and like just, you know, like go in real quick and like get as much done as I can while like my

brain isn't, isn't make, because I overthink ideas sometimes. Yeah. So I find like in that sort of like mind state, it's just that goes out the window and then I usually make my best stuff when I'm not over thinking. Wow. That's really special when you find a way to make something that's negative and turned into a positive. It's cool. In a weird way, it's helped your career. Yeah, totally. It's, yeah, it's just one of those things where it's like you can, you know, I could complain all day. I can make excuses, but even though like there's like hardships to it, it's still, you don't have to let it decide like what you're going to do and what you can't do you know you can still for like anyone who has like any sort of disorder you know it obviously narcolepsy is not the

worst of there are things that really will like mess your mess you up but yeah um i don't know i just i just found that works for me i've just tried to be like just suck it up and just you know keep working and plus music music is a is fine like if you make a career in music it doesn't matter i have narcolepsy you know i can yeah i just have to take like my sleep schedule a little more seriously than the average person that's about it yeah you kind of chose a perfect career path you know you i mean you could pretty much i mean pick your own hours yeah yeah exactly i do yeah so that's that's a blessing man yeah for sure like we we could kind of choose when the work and not work yeah totally you know and and the downside it's not a

really downside but do you find yourself like obsessive or like where like you can't fucking turn it I yeah I can't feel like I can never really turn it off yeah but um I feel like I've gotten better about I feel like I've gotten pretty good about just like not over overthinking and not getting too obsessed over like stuff and just kind of like keep writing keep rolling keep writing keep rolling, you know, with it. I've just found that that works the best for me. Like, creatively is just constant, you know, versus working on, I mean, it depends, like, it depends on what the project is or, like, what I'm doing, essentially. But with, like, an album, you know, you got to, you write the songs and sometimes you have to revisit those songs over and over again. Yeah.

I've just found for me personally, like, when I make music, that's not usually how I end up with the best ideas is, I'll usually know if it's a good idea within like the first verse into like the first chorus or something like that. You know, if I get that far and I'm like, oh, this is good, like, then it's worth, you know, continuing on. If it's something that like I'm like whatever about, you know, maybe I'll just like loosely put it together and then have it at least as like sometimes stuff you like you don't really like that much. It will be something someone else likes a lot. You know, so. Yeah. How do you do with that?

Like, if you're coming up with an idea and you have, like, your verse and chorus that maybe you're not the most stoked on, but then you show it to someone else. Do you know that where it's like, okay, I don't like it? I don't love it, but I could see myself, I could see someone else enjoying this. Yeah, absolutely. In general, with, like, my music taste, even with my own stuff, sometimes I feel like maybe it's a little bit of a... I look for the good in music before I look for. for the bad, like in everything. Like, every time I hear anything,

I like something from just most styles of music higher. I just like love music in general. I just, like, love the nature of sound waves, like, in the air. Like, whatever, you know, that is. I just love that. So, uh,

I find that, um, I'm maybe not picky enough. Sometimes, you know, I'll, like, find the good and something, even if, like, something's not good about it and I need to be a little more critical. I'll still like usually end up like there first. I'm like, oh, I love it. You know, it's not to like, I live with it for like a couple weeks or something like that

where I'll be like, all right, I have to go like mess with this a little bit. But yeah, I just like usually starting ideas and just like rolling with them because my favorite stuff is when you like start an idea and then you get all the way through it in a quick amount of time and you go back and listen to it and you're like, dang, this came out like quick and good. You know, like right away. Yeah, best case scenario, but not always. Yeah. realistic.

Yeah. And you kind of need to filter out. Okay, you got to know when, okay, this is easy. This song came together very easy. Great, but some songs do you need to grind out. Yeah, for sure. It's really hard to figure out, you know,

it's just worth putting in the time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you have to, because sometimes you'll end up with dead ends and I feel like that's working harder and not smarter, you know. Yeah. Where sometimes you'll have an idea

and you exhaust it to death. and you're probably better off just like writing a different idea. You know, that's totally different or something. So you find that coming up, you think it's a good idea when you find a good person chorus. That that's a pretty good bass. I just, I've found that usually, it depends too on like the kind of track I'm working on,

especially if it's a heavy song, like for like metal, if it's like a Wins-a-Pleg song or if it's for whatever, like, I'm writing with usually like I'll try and stick to that because metal takes so much more time to usually to craft out like

something that sounds good and listenable yeah it's it's kind of dude it's it's crazy you know it's it's kind of crazy is I was just talking about this earlier but when I first started making making beats like I know we were mentioning about about how you're like want your next project to flow and stuff like that but with hip hop I was like amazed at the efficiency and the outcome of like how much versus how much work went into it versus what I was used to in metal where I was really like recording bands like doing all the stuff you're supposed to just recording to a click edit like you know all going as detailed in as you go which is why modern metal sounds so good is because of all those years of people figuring that sort of stuff out. like editing guitars and drums and all that stuff.

Yeah. But when it came to making beats, it was just like, you make the beat, that's the instrumental mix, it's done, you track the vocals on it, and it's just the song is done quick, you know, because you make the beat on your own, and then you bring it to the artist, and then they just record vocals over it. That comes out and gets like millions of views, you know, when it took me like an hour to make the beat or something like that. Wow.

And then that gets, it took me no money. you know, to make the song, they'll shoot a video that cost them like $1,000 maybe, and then that'll, like, their revenue would be ridiculous, you know, like from when it blows up, even like established artists, you know, to where I was like, dang, like, in Metalcore,

we've got to like spend $30K on a video, you got to like $100,000 producer, like all, there's just a lot of, a lot of stuff that is dope if you can do it. But it just kind of one of those things where I was like, oh, wow, like, it kind of feels like punk like to me where it's just like, I'm releasing music regardless of what stage I'm at.

So it was just like kids basically just being like, this is the best I can do with what I got. I'm going to put it out because I like it, you know, versus being like, oh, this is just the demo. I'm going to save up, go to, they didn't give a fuck. They just like drop the music. and that's how modern mainstream music happened was like that wave of kids

just like kind of taking it back to the DIY thing so it was cool you know it was one of those things where I was like oh this is like this feels very like authentic to me because I grew up into punk so

like that was kind of my first love so it was like kind of felt like that just a different a different way you know wow so especially with like juice world and like when I worked with like juice world and stuff like that

it was just one of those things where I was like this is really good cool like cool blend of of what I love you know like rap and rock basically yeah how did that gig come up um so me and my friend Perps

he's part of 808 8-08 mafia he produced a lot on that Juice World album Death Race for Love and his good friend Max Lord is Juice's engineer was Juice's engineer and so me and Perps

had made a bunch of these beats together and you know Perps show Juice World and Juice World loved it so he made a song to it and yeah it came out great you know it's like it's definitely my favorite thing I've done so far because it's one of those things where

like that album's like never mind or something like that you know or it's like in utero type of vibe you know because he's you know who he is and like definitely oh that dude a lot because he like it's my first like plaque you know my first like getting to work on something that like

it's gone double platinum and like it was like a number one album and all that stuff you know and it's like a pivotal emo rap you know like a pivotal thing in a certain type of music you know it was like a staple of like it was like the biggest like emo rap thing to happen so it was really cool to get to like work on that and that kit you know juice was like super authentically like a kid into like metalcore and like emo and stuff like that you know so that's why he was the biggest is because his uh His influence was so authentic from both sides, you know, from his hip-hop side and from his rock side So wow. Yeah, it was really cool, you know like getting to getting to work with someone like that is just like Best case scenario, you know? Yeah, it's crazy how long it took you to get to that moment that just kind of popped up, you know? Right? Yeah, it's

I've one thing I've I think I've learned is that Uh, sometimes things don't happen as fast as you want them to, but it's the person that doesn't quit that That's going to get somewhere past zero. You know, like maybe it's usually if you stick at something long enough, like something's going to happen. You know, you may not get to the heights you want to get to. Like everyone wants to get to the top, of course, but you'll get past zero, you know. That's true. So it's just how much is getting past zero mean to you, you know, if you're willing to like some people get handed to them.

You know, some people, it's not a fair, it's not like a fair system, of course. but that's like the reality of the music industry you know if it was a perfect scenario would be all the best musicians all the best music is what gets popular but it's the entertainment industry it's not like the song contest in you know industry like it's not that's not all it's about yeah and you had a very slow burning career you were very patient and obviously you wanted it and you just stuck in there you've been i mean hearing your name constantly for years and you just kept doing it dude yeah i mean honestly like I feel like especially, I loved, I love the EP, but the cleansing, when that came out, that was like, that was like a huge North Star for me when I was a kid where I wanted to do, like, and like the trajectory musically I wanted to take was just one of those things where I was like, you know, that came out and I was like, oh, it was like an aha moment where I was like, oh, this is amazing. So like, I definitely owe a lot of my, honestly, too, like, Mark, when we were talking about when I first met you over here,

gave me some of the best advice I've ever been given by anyone in music still. I think maybe he got it from Phil, but I'm not sure. But he's, he was, well, you got, I think both you were talking about it, but what you guys told me was like, if you want to have a cool band or you want to do like cool music, take like 20 or 30 of your influences, like from all over the place and just throw it in a pot. and you know you'll come up with something cool and different versus if you want to be one type of band

and you only get influences from that same subgenre and something that you're going to sound like everyone else where it's like if you like some kid today was like I want to start a deathcore band my influences are suicide silence wins a plague Chelsea Grand Lorna Shore you know I'd be like such a bummer where I'd be like that's cool but you're going to sound like like that you know versus if you take

like that that statement just went through my head like for years so and then when I realized like to the degree you can like use that you know is crazy because I've gotten to work with so many cool artists and stuff where it was like a reinforcement or it was like okay I'm going to try and mix like three six mafia type beats with like bring me the horizon breakdowns because you know and all sorts like stuff like that just wild you know what seemed like wild ideas at the time then I got to work too with issues on their last album and those dudes are like some of the best musicians I know and they super use that like sort of idea too where it was like just a melting pot of you know all sorts of influences that on paper doesn't seem like it would make sense

but when you hyper focus on all the ideas you know and like put it together that's how you end up with something like really cool I feel like wow like with you guys like I feel like with you guys, especially when the cleansing came out, it was one of those things where it was like, there was still very much like a division between, which has basically evaporated between like hardcore and death metal. Yeah. You know, where maybe here that division isn't as apparent as it is in like other places in the country.

Yeah. But when you guys came out, it was one of those things where it was like, I think what like wins to, you know, as an example, like, or at least the death core bands that were hardcore on their sleeve a little more. It was just like a perfect storm kind of thing, you know? Yeah. So where,

but now kids are just taking that in a more dramatic way, you know, where it's like... Totally. Where like another dude I produced like Scarlord, like he does trap metal or whatever, and his stuff is just like crazy, you know, like breakdown type guitars with crazy trap beats and like

D&B, all sorts of stuff all over the place. Wow. Yeah, it's, that I felt like that was some of the best advice I've ever been given musically that like actually was like an aha thing for me was from you and Mark for sure wow that's cool well you took that and ran with it yeah yeah fucking awesome I like this literally like the basis of like my whole like musical idea she was just like wow that's like a great idea of then what I yeah I just started like I listened to like a lot of different kinds of music and then I just like have learned to be like like, oh, like, take the drum groove from like this genre and then take, you know, like the strings from this genre and like just do the throw it in a melting pot kind of thing. You are literally like best case scenario, like someone that takes that advice and actually uses it. And another key component which you actually didn't use, you do your own thing with it.

Yeah, that's the key. You got to, yeah, you got to do your own thing with it. And you also have to somewhat be realistic about like depending where you do it and what you do it on, you know, and stuff. Like sometimes, sometimes you can, you got to know when you're in the weeds sometimes too, you know. Sure. You're just like, you're trying something that like maybe it's cool on paper, but you're just in, it's not going. It's not going right, you know. Yeah.

I feel like that can happen too, like when you get, you know, too far. Like, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's, there's staying too same. and then they're just like going like too crazy too crazy yeah but yeah but that's the great thing about music is what's too crazy to someone is not too crazy to someone else that's true i mean i can only imagine like the personalities you've worked with you know you know like the like there's part no boundaries which is part of so cool to work with yeah it's really cool just to like you know work with songwriters who maybe have a totally different musical background than i do and yeah you know sometimes work with people who you find in the same kind of

world, you know, from the same kind of world. Like, so a lot of, a lot of kids come from the alternative scene and like end up doing pop music and stuff. It's actually like super common. You know, it's, yeah. You'd be amazed at how many like huge songwriters and stuff like that are like kids from like a scene. You know, it's, it's like, it's like, I feel like now especially. I don't know, obviously, because now I participate in it, but like, I don't know how it was then, but it seems like now like, honestly, like alternative.

kids like kind of rule the world. Yeah. Where if, you know, you only paid attention to like one specific sect of rock or something like that, it would seem like, you know, like it went away, but its influence is like, it's high fashion now at this point even, you know. Yeah. Where you can, it's as most of the most like famous teenagers like in the world and like young kids in the world are like these like seen kids making like pop music and like alternative music. What a trip, huh? Yeah, it's cool. It's kind of like the numidal scene but backwards. It is. That's exactly how I describe. Like when people ask me like, what is trap metal? I'm just like, I'm like, one, like I didn't come up with a genre name. You don't get a choice in what

something you work on. You know this very well. You're better off just embracing it. Absolutely. Then trying to fight it. Yeah. You know, like obviously like both Winds of Plague and suicide silence have experienced the like where the people try and and use like Death Corps as like a negative turn or something like that. Yeah. But I feel like over time eventually that the wave will will crash over where people will not use it as a negative. But anyways, what I was saying with like the trap metal thing

was it's hip hop influenced by metal versus like metal bands influenced by like hip hop. Yeah. So it's like hip hop producers and like hip hop artists and taking inspiration from, you know, from, metal i mean really it's like metal core you know and like some hardcore and new metal and stuff like that what a full circle yeah it's a super full circle and it's like the most popular form of heavy music going on right now like for sure like as far as new artists go yeah like the amount of like listeners like these kids get like city more scar lord ghost main you know like yeah it's a lot like this is

it's heavy as fuck and yeah exactly i feel like it's one of those things where this is one of those moments in rock where kids and adults are just like they don't especially with the rock audience like yeah a lot of the older metal purist dudes and stuff just are not stoked but it's unfortunate because the ghost main is fucking good man i was watching a live video of him like this is what it's all about dude yeah so weird looking kid fucking unique music rocking the fuck out as heavy as Fuck, my dude. This is what it's all about, man. Exactly. I feel like, yeah, he's a good example of just like perfect storm. You know, just perfect storm.

Perfect storm of influences, talent, all that. Where at the end of the day, what teenagers like is what's right, you know, like. Totally. Kids pick what's popular. Yeah. Like, we're old enough now to where, you know, we're over the, we're over the hump of, like, being, like, teenagers deciding what music is cool and what isn't, you know. Yeah.

If you end up being the dude who like hates everything that's new, then that's how you know, like, that's how you know you really only like music because you're like attached to like a time period or like a memory or something. And that's kind of what the music gets tied up into that. You know, I feel like people, especially if you're an artist, like you're so much better off being open minded from like a artistic standpoint. Yeah. Then you are being like closed minded to like new stuff. Totally. Totally. You've engineered, produced, work with hip-hop artists and bands. What are some big differences that you've seen between the both that you wish the bands took from the hip-hop side?

Oh, that's a good example. You know, I feel like the way that they go about creating music is just, there's something to it that is just really cool where they just kind of they you have the instrumental they show up they write to the instrumental they record it and they it's kind of done like they just like are final about it and they just go through ideas like that it's just how much music they make is just dwarfs like metal like projects that I found and same with like the way I was saying earlier like the way they approach doing their videos and stuff like that is just a lot more badass and a lot less caring about, you know, it's like one of those things where they're embracing like the

rawness. I think like that's one thing I've found even with like the super popular hip hop artists like the amount of like work and the amount of just kind of the way they like go about just kind of the careless like effortless flow of it. You know where it's with metal I find it's a lot of overthinking sometimes it can be really tiring and with hip hop you just kind of fly through ideas and maybe that's because uh it's just like the nature of the genre you know maybe it's like i think there's a lot of historical aspects as hip-hop just always been that way yeah but i found yeah that has been a pretty big one is also just with a good song is what's most important absolutely you know versus uh i feel like

with metal too a lot of times especially in our scene I think a lot of bands just kind of like lost the narrative around the 2016 or so Mark it was a little bit of a wandering period where all the scene metalcore bands

had basically like you know obviously there are exceptions to the like some bands murdered it the whole time but some bands I think in trying to make their music more commercial lost the narrative and like lost all the stuff that was dope about them originally and kind of bands that were charting

like top 10 you know then it went that when that went away as soon as everyone started trying to go like you know active rock essentially interesting huh as soon as everyone tried to get more commercial the fan base got disinterested it seems like how bizarre to wear it like forked and then but i also think that's the product of how you got bands like knock loose and code orange who are essentially beat down hardcore bands just dominating you know like doing when on paper it's like their bands are much more extreme

much more heavy but almost in the same way you guys were like I feel like partially a reaction to the new wave of American heavy metal getting a little more rocky a little more commercial then comes like suicide silence you know with the cleansing and it's just like the heaviest

rawest album ever that just you know when everyone else was kind of like softening up, I feel like that happened with metalcore and like the hardcore scene where like all the kids who were there for the breakdowns and all the fun stuff, you know, when that got taken out,

they were all like, all right, well, at this point I like bands like knock loose anyway, so they're not going to go to see those other bands and then all the other bands that like them for their catchy parts. They're not really like, there was like a playfulness about, you know, metalcore a while ago that they kind of like kind of lost it and then that's when the popularity declined.

And then that's when emo rap came through like a wrecking ball honestly And a lot of kids who otherwise Would have been into Scene bands were getting into emo Rappers because people like Little Peep and like you know juice world

And uh you know X and like all These artists basically played like a rock star role and a rapper role It's like hard to compete with that you know It's hard yeah They fucking killed it And then like the age of social media You know it's I'm sure you know this from running a band account is

It's like running a company, you know, when people connect more usually to people's, like, personal Instagrams or, like, their social media sites where when you run a band one, it's like you ought to be creative to keep people interested in it. Totally. When people just end up following the singer anyways, you know? Yeah, yeah. So it's like, just like these artists just had, like, all kinds of advantages on their side. I felt like, you know, that was kind of one of the things that I found different. But I always loved how much, like, metal was an influence on, like, those kids. like alternative music was an influence on them.

Yeah. Because to me it was like, oh, great. Like hip hop is getting more alternative. That's like, that's amazing to me. I'm signing me up for that, you know. Like, all genres to get more alternative. Like I love. Yeah.

Like alternative R&B, you know, like it's amazing and all that sort of stuff. Yeah. I mean, you're a very rare, rare person. Like you're actually, not only are you a fan of music, but you're actually in this. You're not on a side lens. You're actually in the world of hip hop. rock and metal so you have a very unique perspective

and you're also very good at analyzing so I'm really curious about your thoughts on this where do you see metal going you know I was thinking about this last night because I figured we'd talk about this so I see a couple things that I think

are indicators for like I think the industrial thing is probably going to keep like coming up more and more like what Code Orange is doing and their stuff because I think the hybrid of how people make music now with like computers and stuff being so accessible, everyone can learn to engineer to some degree with like three days and YouTube and TikTok. You know, you can at least learn to like record yourself.

And that's different than like when you guys were coming up how you like would jam songs out, you know. That's not really how I feel like most bands write anymore. I feel like most bands write on the computer because you leave the session with a demo that you can listen back to and stuff versus like when you jam it, it's a little harder to have like a perspective, you know, on like what's it actually going to sound like, you know, versus now. So I can see music, the hybrid of like the real band thing versus like the electronic thing has just been going more and more in that direction. And when I say electronic, I don't just mean like, you know, like house music and stuff. like that. I mean, like just since atmosphere, like, it seems like at one point that was like a little frowned upon or something. Yeah. But I feel like the weight of it or just how popular it was has

outweighed like the criticism of it where every band now has texture and like strings and stuff like that, you know, and some sort of. So I think that's probably going to go more and more where the, I mean, the trap metal thing is huge right now. I think it's going to keep going more in like a metal direction too. They're going to see interesting hybrids of like full band parts like breakdowns and stuff like that with like trap beats and stuff different kinds of production

type stuff you know thrown in probably I think a lot of slip knots early influences has been rearing its head a lot again you know yeah when metal core is going to step away from the Lincoln Park mixed with Musuga thing I'm not sure yet you know

not all the way sure someone said it finally someone fucking said it thank you Well, it's just, I mean, I love that stuff too because it's like, it's such a great. Same idea. Like, with like, you know, architects and stuff like that. I feel like, I feel like architects. They're definitely the best at it, I think.

Yeah, I think they're, uh. Shout out to. They have the best. They have like the best, uh, the best riffs in that, like, department, you know, and Sam's just the best at like the pitch scream thing in like my opinion and stuff. Yeah. So. But it seems like, as of right now, it's basically whatever bring me the horizon and architects does, like the people. people just kind of like copy it just kind of follow it in some which i guess i think it's always been

that way maybe i just notice it a little more now um but yeah that's i kind of think you're just going to see more like crazy hybrids of metal and other genres like pop hyper pop is a big thing that right now we're um yeah i think you're just going to see metal popping up in all sorts of like crazy places where you normally wouldn't see it and i think that's probably just the future of music in general is like just genre collabs like that it's hard to foresee because some kid in their

bedroom is like perfecting it right now wow you know it seems like that's because now everyone can find out about anything you know like with Spotify and stuff it's not like yeah you know where you have to go to a record store and stumble on albums and stuff anymore

kids nowadays are into everything like all kinds of different music so I think you'll when they create music, it's probably going to reflect that more. Yeah. You'll probably go back to what it was. People may be creating metal, but taking

all forms of artists, all kinds of artists and put it into... Yeah, I think so. I think that we're going to see all sorts of interesting, like, wow, didn't think I'd hear this metal version of this kind of music, you know, but... Metal is really adaptable.

I think that's one of the things that people who are more the elitist side of things and he'll have a very narrow view of what metal can and can't be and stuff. I think they're just wrong. In this case, it's extremely adaptable music that you can put in all sorts of different genres effortlessly. Like, there's no reason why you can't, you know, like the influence is really easy to apply in other places, you know, so I don't see why it's probably going to spread a lot.

I think we're going to see a lot of crazy genre hybrids of not just, metal but like just all sorts of music that's exciting yeah totally it's a lot of people paint doom and gloom pictures about like music today and old man screaming out a cloud you know kind of thing but i don't know i disagree i think music's great now that's awesome remember back in the day i would uh describe sue the songs to people and like oh i mean i want to combine like you know skinless and corn they're like that's the dumbest idea i ever heard and now everyone does it. Yeah, that's like

A blink of an eye. That's like a safe eye. I feel like that's like a not a crazy Like the fact that people thought that was a crazy idea at one point It's kind of funny now. I know it's so strange. It made so much sense. Corn group was like some blast beats

And then some hardcore breakdowns influenced by like throw down And stuff like that like seems so stupid. People like, dude that's never going to work. Wrong. And now that's like that's been the standard before the past two decades. I feel like there was

like a period where everyone was just wanting the metal like that metal purist kind of audience just really wanted

breakdowns to go away and there's just way too cool to ever go anywhere like I know and they just never got to really

it's kind of funny too because the best the most I feel like the most common thread

with all metal at least the most popular stuff is that it's a combo of metal and hardcore. Like, yeah.

That is a thread you can follow through every, like, other than like power metal and some like European forms of like subgenre metal. Like it's, yeah, it's in everything. So the fact that some people have like weird thing about, you know, that combo is just funny, you know? It's funny. Where it's like, it's so, it's such a small like wall, division wall between metal and hardcore or it's like, it's the same thing.

It is the same thing, huh? Pretty much. They're like slight cultural differences, but musically, especially if you play a riff, you play a corn riff, it's at today's age,

depending on what the drums and what the singer does, it could be a hardcore song just as easy. Or if you play like a five-figure death punch riff, that could easily be a hardcore riff. Wow.

It's really the drums and the vocals that kind of like is the difference, I feel like, between. But the best man's like what? Metallica, Slayer, Slipknot, like, you got, like, y'all, like, everyone. There's a combo of the two. Yeah.

So it's, I don't think it, at one point it was a little crazy to be into, like, both. But now I feel like it's just so common that it's, like, interwebbed. Yeah, it's so common now. And I know you probably heard the same thing that I've always hear, like, all, like, the guitar is dying? Is the guitar dead? Like, what, like, what do you think about that? Dude, so wrong. I literally make a living off of this not being true.

Sick. So a lot of how I collaborate with other producers who work with artists who I normally can't get to is... So guitar and hip-hop and pop music and stuff, yeah, for probably like 2008 to 14, very synth-heavy, not much guitar going on in pop music, for sure. but then when like the emo rap thing came around that changed like guitar music is everywhere like it's all over the radio like and it's alternative guitar riffs too it's not like just it's stuff super influenced by like you know nirvana like a lot of if you listen to post malone songs like it's clear where his influence from even like super hood stuff like you know like rappers like uh shorreli mafia or even like rottie rhoda or even like rottie rhodes rich, like there's, it's guitar-based stuff, you know, and it's usually like, riffs that you might hear in, like, the intro of, like, some emo song or something like that. Wow. It's super similar. It's just the drums and the bass and stuff is different. So, a lot of what

will do is, like, I'll make a bunch of riffs, basically songs without drums on them. And because a lot of hip-hop producers and, like, pop producers and stuff, their strength will be drums, you know, like, yeah. That genre is, drums dictate that genre, drum and bass, which is why it's so adaptable is because no matter what sort of melody you put over that drum groove, like, from whatever genre, acoustic guitar, flute, like, whatever, it still falls into that genre, you know, like, so adding alternative guitars is the main, like, backdrop of, like, modern pop music, basically, mixed with beats. That's dominating music.

So you can make a live... The biggest, the best example I can think of is this dude Omar Fetty, who plays, he's a guitar player. He plays on most of MGK's album, play the new, like, Kid the Roy, Justin Bieber song. He's like an alternative kid who's a ripping guitar player. It's one of the biggest producers in the world, and he's like 21. And he's a guitar player. That's what he does. He plays guitar on a lot of these records.

So that shows you how not dead guitar is. Like a lot of us will make a bunch of songs without drums, send them to producers. A lot of them are guitar based, you know, and that's what, you know, is like dominating popular music. So it's super not true. Now is like the best time to be a guitar player. I feel like in a long time. Really? Yeah, because if you're good, if you're good enough to like make, the bar is not super high in that world of like, you know, technicality.

or whatever, say, like, maybe it is in, like, death metal or something like that. Yeah. Even though, like, when you get into the pop world, you'll meet the best musicians you've ever met in your life who play circles around just about anybody. Like, you know, because those dudes are just, like, top tier, especially the dudes who play in, like, big pop stars, bands and stuff like that. Yeah. Craziest musicians. But if you listen to a lot of the stuff like you hear on the radio, you got to just be good enough, do some minor chords, little arpeggiating and stuff like that. And yeah.

That's, you can have songs good enough. you're good enough. You know, that was one thing, too, I felt that was really important for me younger, which kind of stuck with me is that why I got so into punk first was because I just started playing guitar and I was like, oh, part of the thing with this is you can be a beginner and still start a band. And so create music. Like, there's no, there's no bar on how good you have to be to create music. You can create music at any stage of, you know, even if you can only play one note on piano, like you can turn that into a song somehow. That's what's, uh, Yeah, so I felt like with guitar playing, you know, if you just say you want to work with said artists and the only way you're good at guitar, you can record yourself, the best way to do that is to find out who produces for them and reach out and see if you can send them guitar ideas, you know, without any drums or like anything like that.

Just if you can write some like a song structure and send them that and have them close. lab, you know, and then maybe, you know, if all the pieces align, you'll get a placement with said artists or you'll get a placement somewhere, like, maybe not who you're expecting, but you just got to kind of go with the wind with this kind of stuff, you know, where throw your riffs out there and, you know, even like if you have to record yourself playing riffs and stuff, just so you have content on the internet so people can see that you can do it, you know? Yeah. But, yeah, if you're, especially if you're like a good metal guitar player or something,

like that dude like just write some like you know turn your distortion off a little bit and like some clean lead thing you do could be like a pop could be a pop melody for a beat or something. Wow. Just got to think of music a little less like black and white and like you know the tones of something is what makes a genre. That style of beats is what makes a genre and stuff. But there's a lot of similarities. Like that's what I found with doing multiple genres is music has so much in common more than it doesn't have in common. Yeah. You can take a drum groove from anywhere. You can a riff idea from anywhere and it just depends on like what you play it on and you know what the backdrop is what makes it wow at least that's what i think i don't know maybe i'm wrong maybe but i think that's

that's worked for me at least is to try and like relate everything to what i'm like what i'm used to yeah i think that's a very healthy uh perspective you know it's awesome yeah i've you know some people and it obviously varies you know if i was Some bands and stuff like that, I wouldn't recommend, like, you know, going too far out into the weeds and stuff like that. Like, a band, you know, like, what Slayer did or, like, hate breed or Cannibal Corpse, like, those kind of bands that, like, dominate a sound. Yeah. And they are, like, they're super good at that. If what you're making, like, that's contrast to that or, like, you're taking in different directions isn't coming out as good as that.

maybe it is better to, you know, like, keep hammering what you're good at and taking little steps, like, out to, like, test the waters, you know? Yeah. But that's a different, you know, that's a different thing than being a producer. You can throw your riffs a million different ways, you know, and when you're like a producer, I guess, or like, you make music to give to other people, you know, versus for, like, say, your own project or, like, your own band or whatever. Totally. You ever work on a song and then you give it. it that you didn't weren't so stoked on and you gave it to like another uh ties in them what you was in earlier they were you gave it to another artist and they loved it and then they turned into

like a yeah totally a fuck oh like that's like a big song now oh man what man honestly one thing too that i've learned is that when it comes to not overproducing has been a real like thing i've been like trying to get better at like for years you know because coming from metal yeah it's very dense music to where you know my taste just got like drawn into like lots of textures and layers and stuff like that which can be cool but

sometimes you have to like strip stuff back and like if something's kind of boring sounding to you I've found that that's good like a place to stop because then it leaves room for the vocalist to you know have a bigger picture of like imagination or whatever what they can do

vocally yeah and if you have to do more production sometimes you can do it after the fact But there's been tons of songs where I'm like, yeah, this beat's okay. And then when they do the song to it, I'm like, great. I'm so glad I didn't add that extra lead or I didn't add that extra layer that would have distracted from whatever. Whatever, dude's vocal melody ended up becoming because I, you know, was like, oh, this is kind of boring. I'm going to, like, jazz it up a little bit or like whatever, you know, sometimes less is more. and it's some i feel like it's easier to make complex

arrangement stuff like it is linear you know what i mean like right like linear songs where you're just like we'll go from this riff then we'll just go to this because then you just throw shit at the wall versus when you have to like have just a couple ideas but the ideas have to be strong enough to keep someone's attention the whole idea absolutely the hardest dude it's it's way it's a different ball game you know it is yeah coming up with like the simple stuff is it's the hardest i remember remember when i was here and you guys wrote the riff for fuck everything when

we were doing guitar lessons. Yeah. It was so funny. I remember that. That just, yeah, because that was a good example of where that riff was just like it was just like one. Or no, it was the Yolo riff. Bann, tica da-tac-da-that thing. Yeah. I remember when you guys came up with that.

I was here. You were there. Yeah, I was here. And I read, being like, oh, that's super simple. It was like super simple, it was super sick. And you were like, yeah, and then that ended up being that. Crazy. Yeah. Those are the hardest.

Those simple riffs are the hardest to come up with. They are. That's why a lot of... It's fucked. I'm sure you hear this all. I've heard this all the time, but where people are like, oh, pop music's so easy to make, you know, like...

It's the hardest to make. It's not easy to make. Yeah. The, like, coming up, yeah, with a simple idea that's good enough to last a whole song is not easy. That's why a lot of... And that's the most effective thing

because even in metal, that's the most popular song. songs too you know it's song that you get that one that one riff that's just worth listening to for three minutes you know it's hard to beat yeah hard to beat that it's hard to beat that man or like tired especially even like the new metal era like what like you know maybe like a couple riffs per song you know usually yeah that's it I think that's kind of my favorite thing is with songs is where it's a couple ideas in metal stuff I love a good breakdown I love the deviation

into like making something like splintering it even if you have a soft song you know if you add like just a crushing breakdown somewhere in there it's usually that's a fire like a method you know but yeah i've i've it's all just dynamics you know i think there's another good thing that you i like heard from you guys was talking about how to like build a song up and peek it and then bring it back down to build it back up again you know yeah yeah i think we talked a bit about that before before few times where, yeah, that was super influential to me too, like, was... Wow. Because before, you know, sometimes in your head, you're just like, oh, I just want to be

up here the whole time, but then when everything's heavy, nothing's heavy. Totally. It's like dynamics that make something heavy. Yeah. You know, yeah. Maybe like there's various forms of aggression, but, you know, I felt like, like, I would say, like, bludgeon to death is one of the heaviest breakdowns of all time, like, in my opinion. Wow. One of, you know, it's definitely up there in top five at least.

Sick. But it's simple. It's so simple. Yeah. But it's just like letting that like core just resonant out. Especially too when you guys do it love. Done done done done. It's perfect. You know, it's like that sort of thing is perfect. But yeah, I found, one thing I'm curious about is, okay, so I was, me and my, me and Zach, my friend Zach, we're talking about this, about some of the differences between metal and hardcore. And I'm wondering where, like, suicide silence's, like, mentality is on this, where a lot of times, you know, with hardcore bands that lean more in that direction,

like we're talking about this with knock loose. Like, knock loose music essentially is, like, kind of the perfect mosh music. Yeah. Or with hardcore, you know, you consciously write parts for to be danced to a specific way, like two steps, side to sides, breakdowns, circle pits. know, like stumps, like all the sort of things you can do musically and like drum-wise specifically to create different movement in the pit. Hardcore is very like conscious of that, but metal is more like on the side of just

push-mosh, circle pit, not really the like specific dancing, you know, in the same way. Would you guys ever write like parts with the pit in mind? Like when you wrote like, say the bludgeon to death breakdown where you guys kind of like people are gonna like kill each other to this. Oh yeah, you know. Totally and that that ties into what we're talking about with the dynamics is a people, which you probably hear about a lot like people listen to metal and like don't hear like the dynamics but there is dynamics there. Like if you're doing like let's see a bludgeon like you're doing like a thrash with S S S was very like conscious of this we're gonna

fucking thrash but we're gonna thrash better than the metal bands do it. Yeah. So it seems like extreme then we're gonna blast crazier than like the tephanol bands and then out of nowhere we're gonna do this fucking done yeah done so you build tension with the fast parts you build tension and then it's like a circle pit going is tension and tension out of fucking nowhere you know fucking slam yeah harder than a hardcore band would yeah exactly so you have these two like you know opposing like dynamics you have the thrash harder than the thrashers yeah and he slam harder than then than the hardcore bands yeah and you just give people something fucking...

I feel like that's one thing that is one of the shining tropes of Death Corps, like, you know, like, legacy or the scene or whatever is just pushing breakdowns to like the most cool. Probably, I would argue,

it's like, to me, that's what's heavy when I think of like someone's like describe something heavy. It's like... Bludgeon to death would be an example of something like, this is heavy. Yeah. Where it's just letting those low frequencies like just kind of like take you

that was one of the reasons I got drawn into producing hip-hop was because 808s reminded me of breakdowns like I just write 808s like I write breakdowns it's the exact same mentality it's just like different sounds you know but it's the same patterns same like that's exactly how I think about it was because I know how to write

breakdowns I was able to take that like ideology of writing because breakdowns is a skill like people will try and hate like everyone breakdowns are easy to get the breakdown right to where you know when you do it because you

look out and people it's just everywhere you know like it's just going on and there's also a key factor is you can't fake it which which is hard to do now on uh really enough back then bludgeon and death seems

like we're trying to be heavy but this this is the key factor no one talks about we weren't trying I wasn't trying to be heavy I wasn't trying to be the heaviest band in the world Just like this is this is what is inside my body and you fucking screaming out and it just comes out that way like you know I want to go Boom boom Yeah totally but it comes from like your heart yeah and then you put it out there and the way it's oh it's pure caveman yeah Yeah it's oh you said the key words caveman is primal you bring out that primal thing at the fullest capacity yep people can't

People start dancing yeah exactly it's like like a run on fire you know it's just it's the same thing same thing. I think it's just rhythmic, I think like the rhythmic unity of like breakdowns and just like the, yeah, the mentality of at least breakdowns, how we're talking about breakdowns and like the metal way, uh, is just as heavy as it gets, you know, in my opinion. Like, yeah, it's just the low, it doesn't have to be low tune, you know, it's like wins a plagues first few albums are in standard E and yeah. It's all, it's all trickery, you know, but, uh, just something about. It's, it's like, it's that like the drums and the kick playing the same thing as the guitar and the bass god there's some atmosphere behind it or something like that you know so sick it's just that's just as good as it gets for music in my opinion dude it's cool how you took like because you're like a scene kid at heart you know it's quite you took all the it's also what is so crucial what you did is you didn't which a lot of bands fail at you didn't take the sound from bands you took you took the mentality like you took the spirit of all these genres and

And then you put it into what you do. Yeah. I just kind of run by the fact that I just want to make music that I would want to listen to. You know, like, or I try and think, like, what is, what do I wish was happening that's not happening that I can try and make happen the best I can, you know? Yeah. To where it's like, like, I wish some band, I wish there was this band went more in this direction, you know. Totally. What would that sound like?

So maybe I should try and, like, you know, fuck with that. it and see if I can come up with something. A lot of times I just fall ass backwards into shit. Like I don't I'm not really like sitting there like contemplating like in my head like I feel like um this is where a lot of band like tension a lot of like fighting I've noticed from bands is when you get too caught up in the talking about the theory of what you think your band should sound like or say your album should sound like while you're working on it and not enough focused on what's actually coming out of the music you know where you're you'll be like, I think we need to go more in this direction and mix this with that, you know,

versus, you know, where you're getting an disagreement about essentially the idea of a direction like you should go in. But maybe that idea when someone says it to you sounds totally different in your head than it sounds like in their head. Yeah. And you get in disagreements about it versus like where you're just like, let me just write the song out and like show you what I'm thinking. And then, you know, we can have a discussion about what it sounds like. Yeah. When, you know, sometimes you'll do that

or I've done that with tons of bands where they'll be like, oh, like, yeah, this is fire. Like this, where it's like, even if you're like, I told you, in their head it sounded different, you know. Totally. So if you get too caught up with talking about the theory of what you think your band should sound like and almost like, oh, I got to mix all this stuff.

Try not to get lost in the weeds with that. You know, I just kind of like let, like, this idea is cool. This idea is cool. just ask backwards cool idea after cool idea and just run with whatever direction my taste goes in you know yeah yeah you're right it's really hard to

it's pretty much it's actually impossible to explain ideas correctly like you guys just like kind of show him like you kind of like this is way it is and I'll show him like show him like a beat or something yeah yeah totally where yeah if you get too caught up in the weeds of talking about the theory of it I think that's when that's kind of where I try not to to do that

too much even though it's that's fun It's fun to do that because you can, that's where you come up with weird ideas and stuff like that. But I've seen it go, I've just seen, when members are just totally different pages, like creatively and stuff, you know. Sometimes that makes the best music because that's how I feel like good combos get made is when you have the right people working from different perspectives musically. But it coming together, no one's really satisfied at the end. but because everyone had to compromise something, you come up with something a little more original, you know? Yeah.

Yeah, it's really hard to get on the same page. Who's more like laid back? Is it like the bands or is it like the hip hop artist? Oh, it's the hip hop artist. Really? Just like they're going to record a shitload of music. So they're just kind of like just waiting to fall into one. You know, they're just kind of waiting to land on the right song.

So. I found that yeah just overall like the sessions are usually more like lighthearted just because the work is a little less technical because you're not you're not a lot of times you've already made the beat so you've already made the

instrumental mix so it's just them writing vocals and coming up with ideas so it's just kind of that like that a lot you get that a lot you know where or if you make the beat in front of the artist too that's fun because then they get to have a little bit of a say and what you do yeah um but yeah I've just

found too like because it's just the difference of what we're talking about recording an album excuse me a recording an album like in a two week time period and that's the album you got two weeks to make it yeah versus just like going out there making a bunch of music and then putting it together later you know and deciding what's the best song you have like after you've kind of like gotten your that's how that's how like pop is written you know that's how a lot of also that's how a lot of metal core is written i don't mean to blow the cap off but like so many bands like it's funny that people get like really stuck up about stuff like real drums or like was these with these guitars miced or are these vocals tuned blah blah like everything even like the bands that people like worship and stuff like that if they knew like how programmed and how like edited everything is and how a lot of times bands right with a lot of different songwriters and stuff it's not just the people in the bands making music yeah all the time that's not That's actually more rare than it is common.

And when I remember when I found that out about like metal and the rock world, I was like, wow. But like that's crazy. You almost feel like it's some of like the more purest will be like that's have like a little bit of like a snotty opinion about it. You know, because. But all that matters is the songs come out the best way they can, you know, like that you make the best product of music. And collaboration is just like a beautiful thing where I love collaborating like because. Because you'll think of stuff I won't think of, you know? And you'll make the most wide range of music by working with multiple people, you know,

and you'll find what works, what doesn't work a little more. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. I think that, like, the collaborative spirit of, like, working with hip hop and stuff like that, really, like, I try to, like, bring that more into my rock stuff and metal stuff I work on, too, because I've just found, like, I have friends, you know, who are, like, they're, that dude's a better guitar player than me, to be honest. So let's let him come write riffs with us, you know, because his riffs are sick. So it's just about coming up with the best, you know,

the best music. And at the end of the day, I feel like that's kind of like my producer hat, you know, is just, however it gets written, it doesn't matter. Like, the process of it doesn't matter. It's the outcome that matters. Whether you did it all analog or whether you did it digital, like no one gives a shit. Like, you know, unless, you know unless it's a special case like with the cleansing like that's an example where i'd be like right band right sound right producer the rawness and like the live aspect is part of why it's so dope yeah but other bands have tried the same thing and had much less results you know because they they weren't making the right creative decisions like you guys did you know you knew

you had that shit down so yeah it came out the perfect way it should you know yeah He ever wrote like a song or a beat or both and then a hip-hop artist kind of comes in and then it didn't sound like like a single but once they started singing over it it 100% became a single 100% yeah like I don't even think of anything as a single until there's vocals on it and the song idea is done or at least the song idea is going because that's 50% of it you know it's that's how music is that's how you get paid is that's how music is broken up half vocal half instrumental like you know whoever writes the vocal gets one half whoever depending on you know whatever but just that's how music is split up so to me yeah it's like i've had tons of instrumentals that i love and then vocals get on it and i just can't seem to get a vocal that fits right and to me it's just like oh well like this instrumental maybe it sounds great

on its own but maybe that's why it's hard to get vocals on it you know or like sometimes it's the opposite. I'll be like, this is super bare bones, like, or even if I'm just like, yeah, it's cool. And then someone will do vocals on it. I'm like, this is why I don't make my mind up until I hear vocals because now I love it, you know? Damn. That's right. Yeah, I totally, it's, yeah, that's the, I mean, that's the reality. Just that's what a lot of kids just mainly care about is that that vocal just has to be right, you know. But, uh, I feel like now a lot of times, too, we live in the age where if the beats, if the beats hard,

like producers, producers are killing it because beats are just so hard now, you know, like that they are a lot of the song where people fuck. You'd rather listen to a beat by itself than just a vocalist singing, you know,

nine times out of ten. Yeah, true. So, yeah, I don't know. It's just, yeah, I kind of just got into it because in skate videos and stuff when I was a kid, you know, there'd be instrumental hip-hop tracks playing

and I never really listened to like rap without the vocals. So kind of triggered my ear for it. Now when I get older, I'm like, I hear a beat, you know, and I try and imagine myself like, you know, I'll write vocals over it. Like I'll come up with ideas and stuff like that just so I can like think like a singer to at least have a grasp on whether, you know, this is easy to sing on or not. Yeah. Because that's important, you know, say like you write a riff or something like that and you like

trying to picture vocals, but, you know, you're having a hard time doing it. Maybe, you know, you should alter the riff a little to make it easier to make vocals. I don't know. Like, it's... I can try and think of... I keep the vocals in mind when I make music. It's just... Yeah, you have to, huh?

Yeah. That's true. Yeah, definitely. No matter what the genre is. Like, yeah. The biggest metal stuff is the catchiest. There's a reason for that. And writing and catchy stuff is also on that list of hardest to do.

Yeah, exactly. You just... I don't know, man. I can fucking sit all day and just do this. Yeah. So, we're just... but they write that fucking simple catchy

that's catching a stage your head lightning in a bottle yeah you're right but it's a numbers game too the more you write you're gonna stumble on something

you're riffing all the time you're writing all the time you know like yeah I mean it's different for different people I get some people you know they write an album like they kind of save up all their creative energy

for that time period and they just kind of like gush it out yeah some people write all the time you know just whatever works best for you, you know, you have to, no, there's no right way to do it or wrong to do it. It's just whatever, however you make the best music you can make, that's what you should do. So whatever works for the person, right?

Yeah, and I know that's like one of those things where it's like easier said than done because finding out what works for you is not like a universal thing. Like, I can tell you what worked for me, but that doesn't mean it's going to work for you or like, you know, you can tell me what worked for you, but that doesn't mean it's going to work for me. You know, like your path is different than my path. Like, you know, everyone's path is like different. So especially in music, you know, some bands, you know, some bands, uh, get blow up right away. Like soon as they come out with music or before they even come out with music, you know,

you'll have a career, like already started. Some bands, you got to really work for that shit, like really hard. But, you know, it's not a universal thing. it's not huh? Nah, it would be nice if it was if there was like a playbook but you know

you have to it's just all about analyzing like your situations you know like that you're in like playing your cards right totally speaking of playing cards

how are you on time I have like one or two two more questions Oh I'm good I'm here as long as as you want me Speaking of speaking of playing your cards right

you're very You know you look like a maniac but you're a very Humble guy and you're very a very sweet guy and you're very good at Connecting with with people and relating with people more so with artists You know how did it and you were grinding for so long and then how did the opportunity arise with bones? I mean you met him at a mall right? Yeah Randomly yeah, I did yeah I was at red it's not there anymore but red zone in Burbank you know it's like this metal hardcore

T-shirt like accessory place and Oh shit. I just saw him like walk, he just walked by. I was a big fan of his. He's honestly probably like one of my favorite rappers, like of all time. Yeah. His very, one of those, one of the dudes who like, he's huge, he has a huge underground fan base.

He's still like a huge artist. Yeah. But he's even like underappreciated like to, you know, he still plays in front of thousands of people every night. But he really did like create modern like hip hop as we know it in a lot of ways, like in terms at least on the like probably the the first dude I heard seeing like emo melodies over like trap beats and stuff like that at least you know or at least the first dude who really like took that and kind of went with it that he what he did like little peep and like people like that

ended up like kind of because bones did a lot of stuff yeah so uh that was just like an element of his sound not his whole entire sound you know so other people took elements of kind of what he was doing and stuff and like ran with it you you know, and like made it their thing. So, yeah, I met him at the mall, and I had told him, you know, I had produced for Omen, who he knew about Omen. And, you know, he was like into metalcore and stuff like that too. So, like, I just, like, talk to him about music.

I knew we liked together. Like, I just related to the dude's music. So I knew that, like, when I met him, you know, we'd get along. So, and I was making beats very much, like, with the same vibe. You know, I was, like, we were, like, kind of on the same page, like, creatively in that way. So yeah, it just goes, don't be afraid to talk to people, you know, like that's really what it was. It was just I wasn't afraid to go, hey, what's up, bro? Like, you don't, you don't have to obviously be a punisher, you know, like, don't be ridiculous about it.

But, but, you know, if you want to work with an artist you like or something like that and you're in a casual situation, you get to meet them, you know, like, just like talk to them like you would, your friends or whatever, you know, and just be like, oh, hey, I make music, you know, if you'll be surprised. stuff something nothing might happen but sometimes something does happen you know like you just can't be afraid to put yourself out there totally because of the fear of rejection you know yeah better to be rejected than to wonder like oh man I messed up and like 100% I'd rather be rejected than regret you know yeah and you seem you really because a lot of people struggle with that also they struggle with being caught up in the moment and they get to like oh this is like my one shot and they're overly aggressive, you know, I mean, have you learned like, okay, this is how you're supposed

to talk to, they talk to them like, like, people not be so aggressive and, like, desperate? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. People really struggle with that. Yeah, definitely. People definitely feel like, oh, this is my one shot. I got to take it and that means going as hard as I can. Yeah. That's, that's like the kind of working hard or not smarter mentality, you know, where it's not necessary. It's better to relate with someone, like, personally, you know, than it is to, like obviously like I'm a huge fan of your like we're I'm a huge fan of yours like we're friends and everything and you know it's been it's great and but like you were someone I've looked up to before I knew you you know as was what I mean like in terms of so when I got to meet you guys though

it was one of those things where I was like oh cool like we like a lot of the same stuff so I felt like we could relate as friends you know more than I did like oh I'm just meeting like my like idols or like a band I love you know type of thing yeah where um some people you're better off doing that you know like say I knew you like corn you know so I was like oh dude like I like corn too love blah talk about corn or I play guitar like whatever you have in common you know like just talk about that because people someone comes up to me and starts talking about stuff I'm into like yeah I'm yeah I'm happy to talk about that stuff you know yeah so uh yeah I've just found you know a nice middle ground.

I don't know. It's one of those things you've got to have somewhat of a six sense for. It's like learn knowledge kind of where I've found when to like seize an opportunity and when it's safer just to like, you know, step back and not overplay my card. You know, I've met tons of people where it just didn't feel right to like, you know, try and be aggressive about working with the person because they're like having fun with their friends or something like that. Those moments happen too. Yeah.

Do you get that? I had this feeling last month with someone. I was like, oh, I want to ask him something. But you get like this gut feeling like this is not the right moment. Don't do it. Do you get that? Yes. Yeah.

So I'll get that. And when I get that, I'll just kind of like, like, like, be like, okay, like I'm going to keep an eye out, you know, and just see if like a moment presents itself. Yeah. And if the moment presents itself, then, you know, I'll approach with, you know, trying to like relate more to the person or whatever but um if i don't feel the moment happens then i'm not going to do it like yeah but uh a lot of times you'll you'll find like a moment that works you know sometimes it just depends on what it is exactly true so if it's just like just wanting to know

something about someone you know most people are happy to talk about themselves so yeah you know you're pretty safe but yeah totally i've definitely yeah many times just been like it's not the time like if the right time presents itself great but yeah right now it's it's you know i would rather you can only make your first impression once too you know true so if you want to work with someone sometimes it's better to like yeah wait the moment out and then like have a better first impression the second time if it's gonna you know you're playing dot you're playing with the dice but yeah you're right it's true you know social social smarts is like a whole other world in itself you know that's hard to it's it's a big it took me years to figure that whole scene out yeah just networking

yeah networking is is a whole art form it is and and networking was something i didn't expect like it's this i think there's like a a negative thing to it but networking i figure out like it's it's this doing what doing what you do it's hard you know so you want to you want to be around other people that are doing it and that kind of keeps you absolutely subconsciously motivated and driven so when you're out there in public you're meeting similar people it's like oh yeah

this is this is what people talk about this is networking but like you're it just helps you in like a weird way yeah totally like man being I can't even talk like mention how much like or I can't even like fathom how much just being around other creatives you know like on the same pages me and that being like my friends and when me my friends hang out we make music like that's what

i do for fun on top of a job like it's i'm just always doing it with my friends and yeah that's what makes it fun you know is like just hanging out is making music like that's yeah it's great so uh for me you know it's one of those things where that's in that's a i'm definitely not only friends with people who make music you know that's like i wouldn't recommend that either just being friends with people just because of what they do yeah But I do have a lot of friends who, you know, like that's a... Making music with someone is definitely a super intimate thing, you know? Like, it's one of those things where you guys are like, you're creating together.

So whatever that product is, like, that comes out of it, you know, is like, it's cool, especially if you really like it, you know. Yeah. So you'll make friendships out of just, you know, having that, like, personal times, like, together just like... Totally. Throwing ideas out there, you know. So, I... I found, yeah, like, if you want to make music and, like, music is what you love or any sort of art form at all, if you hang out with a bunch of people who do that too, and that's what you guys do for fun and stuff, and they're doing dope stuff, you know, that's how you get the person who gets the call, you know, for something dope is just being around and just being, you know, in it. Totally.

Even if it's an entry level, you got to start somewhere, but really the best way is to get anywhere I found was like, so, so. like some of like the early stuff I produced like my friend like little Zan you know who he used to just like take photos at our house you know when we were doing studio sessions and stuff like that and then he just started rapping at our house and then blew up you know like came a mainstream artist yeah and that was just because no friends hanging out you know just making music together and one of the dudes happened to like crack you know which that'll happen when you're making music all the time with different people and stuff, your odds get better with someone hitting the mark, you know, and someone going up. And then if you have a part to play in that person's ascension in any

way, you'll get risen up a bit with it, you know, like the kind of like high tide lifts all boats thing, you know, especially if you're right next to it. Like it's going to. And then when you're around, then you'll kind of see, you know, you'll get like the aerial view of like music and just like, oh, wow, this is, this is how this is done. You know. like at like this level you know you get more of an insight on how things really work and how blowing up an artist works and you know just then essentially you're just doing educated guesses after that trying to make it happen again but um yeah just having friends who are just like trying to make music too is or whatever if you're a photographer or it's better too if like you're a musician friends with

videographers photographers yeah like dudes who have different skill sets and other um artistic places because then you're like a fool you're a force you know yeah for real you have like a whole thing going it's a whole thing yeah um i'm gonna end the podcast with a quote from you and and uh this ties in what we've been talking about the whole time coming up as simple stuff is is it's the hardest thing to do and you said uh work hard stay busy yeah work hard and stay busy just keep your head down you know just keep going. There's no, I feel like there's just no, no reason to quit, you know, like, if you like making music, say your first band doesn't work out or you have some sort of project fail and like doesn't get where you want it to get, that just can be one chapter in music. You know, you can still have a

normal job, make music for fun, and get past zero. So if you just don't give up, I would say just add that, like, yeah, work hard, stay busy, don't give up. Like, that's the, you know, the trifecta for that's the trifecta of a life dude i guess of being having a career and i think anything really essentially yeah it's that's the best best shot you know it's not gonna work for everyone all the time obviously but uh you know if if you want to play your card smart you know just get as good as you can at what you do have fun doing it so you enjoy doing it you do it more often. And yeah, like, you know, don't, don't get discouraged because something doesn't work out the first time. Just keep going at it. Hopefully I'll be like, you know, 80 still making beats

on my, like, lifer. Lifer. Like, you know. Look at you. You're a fucking lifer. Oh, I have no choice for sure. Look at us, dude. No choice. Yeah, no choice. We are a bunch of freaksie. We are not going anywhere. No, I was, dude, it's funny because I had. a normal job once in high school. I did like... Same. I did projection for a movie theater and then I've just like engineered bands

and produced music since then. So I think I'll be all right. Boom! Well, we got the trifecta. Yeah, that's it. Dude, thanks so much for having me. Anytime man. Where can people find you? You can just follow me on

all the social medias, Instagram. More goth beats beats with the Z at the end. M-R-G-O-T-H-H-B-E-A-T-Z. follow me TikTok Twitter Instagram all that

you know just post stuff of lots of me making music that's really what it is cool well great seeing you man

was honor yeah dude so cool to be back here thank you so much for having me anytime all everybody that's it later